Convenience vs Realism: The Immersion Factor

Ancient_Exile

Using torches or lanterns is too much trouble.  Let's just pretend that my character is already using one in his or her invisible third hand, so he or she can still use a sword and shield or dual wield.

Why should my character need to eat and drink?  That's dumb.  Let's just pretend that my character is eating and drinking at various intervals while I'm not looking.  I know that fighting a horde of monsters probably would make someone thirsty.  It might also give them quite an appetite.  But don't waste my time with such nonsense.  I just want to grind mobs, bruh.

Sleep?  Who needs to sleep?  Certainly not my character.  Heck, I'm real and I barely sleep.  You only got time for the bare essentials when you're online 18 hours a day.  And, yeah, I know that it only took a few minutes for the party to rent some beds and catch some z's in the old Final Fantasy games.  Yeah, yeah, but still, that's a waste of my precious raiding time.

Clothes, armor, and weapons (and pretty much every other item in my vast inventory) should never wear out, break, deteriorate, get damaged beyond repair, or decay in any way, shape, or form.  Going to the blacksmith or w/e to pay for repairs is so stupid.  Besides I have magical gear with MAGICAL properties.  That stuff should be unbreakable.  Never mind that I'm banging my magic sword against mobs wearing magical armor.  Or that I got nuked by a magical fireball just a few minutes ago.  Good thing there's no death penalty.  I hate that stuff.  Dying should be absolutely trivial.  Anyways...

And weight?  Oh, man, don't even talk to me about that encumbrance crap.  There's absolutely no reason why I should not be able to fit a whole armory, 5 years supply of wood and ore, and, heck, even a whole castle in my bags if I have enough inventory slots for it.

As for communication in games, I think it's totally realistic that I can talk to anyone, anytime, anywhere.  Global chat is excellent.  Obviously, all player characters are gifted with the supernatural ability to project their voices across vast distances.  They are also telepathic.  (Though honestly, it does kind of bug me when the girl I've been grouping with and power-leveling for the last few days seems to always be typing to someone else in private messages.)  Anyway, communication should always be simple, fast, and easy.  There's no reason why my character should need to visit a town square, a tavern, or even a guild hall to find people to group with.  That makes no sense at all.  And no way do I want to have to actually travel to the market or the auction house in order to buy or sell things.  It's a magical world, and everything should be magical.  Sure, we could post things on a bulletin board in taverns or whatever, but that would take way too much time.  Plus I hate waiting.  I want everything now, now, now. 

It's just too bad I actually have to raid to get really good gear.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I L-O-V-E, love raiding, love it, but sometimes I'm tired and kinda wish that every once in a while they would just hand out the epics at the door.  Like, sorry, the raid is closed today, but here's what you came for anyway.  Or maybe someday I could just push one button to kill the boss.  Okay two.  Maybe three.  That would be sweet.

Amaranthar

I play games for the enjoyment of being in an alternate world. And that means I like a lot more than just a'hackin' and a'slashin'. 

I like doing all sorts of things. That includes prepping for a Dungeon, checking things out in the local town because they know what to expect better (as well as said Dungeon), making sure I have all the accessories like sharpening tools and oil for my weapons, and light camping gear and light sources (small lanterns on the belt would be cool). 

I want NPC porters for those loads of loot, and to have to protect them or tell them to "stay here, I'll be back." And mules, the kind with long ears. 
How about hirable torch bearers with excellent defenses? 
Or even Player Characters who are good at one handed battle, and even attacking with said torch for extra fire damage? 
I want wagons (caravans) for those really heavy loots I want to get.

I want to set up a campsite outside of the area I'm about to explore, and leave an NPC guard or a Pet to protect it. (I want Justice rules if players can steal or kill my assets!) 
It would be cool if Players could make a larger camp site for other adventurers to rent space, too. 

I want realism because it's more interesting to play. Not total, in your face realism. I want it to be added game play in a more casual sense. And it should be at least somewhat meaningful. 

I want truly dangerous traps, and to send my extraordinary thief friend ahead to recon and set out small oil lamps to mark traps and light the area. And if he dies, I want to be able to Res him, get the lowdown, and recover his/her gear. 

I want to experience the agony of defeat as well as the thrill of victory (without one you can't really have the other). Knowing that I can try again, next time with more knowledge and prep for success. 
I want MOBs to loot my corpse, and pay the debt, knowing that each adventure may reward in like kind. It's a gamble, in a sense, with little guarantee. 

I want to experience the game world in all it's glory, casually as much as with intensity.

Ancient_Exile

@Amaranthar

Well said.  Or written, as the case may be.

Gear, stats, and every other mechanical feature in an MMORPG should only be a means to an end, not the end all be all.  And, personally, the end I'm seeking is an experience.  To see what it would be like to live in an alternate/fantasy world.  I believe that's what the first players of D&D and other table-top pencil & paper role-playing games were seeking.  But somehow that got lost along the way. 

90% of all these MMORPGs are just Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior (Knight) online.  Only with less realism.

Sure, there might be some single player games out there that provide such an experience.  But there's really no reason why MMORPGs shouldn't be able to provide that experience as well.

Kyleran

Many people want to play games like their favorite character they've seen in a movie or TV show.

Whether sneaking through a sewer,  tromping through a forest, or bedding their favorite wench, there is always enough light to see though no source is visible.

While they might eat on occasion, usually only during rousing tavern or banquet scenes, and rarely does one need to excuse themselves to hit up the loo to drop a deuce with any regularity. 

Sure, sword sharpening is cool, but when does the heroes drop into "armors and more" to pick up some new skin tight leggings, never, they even manage outfit changes with nary a backpack in sight.

This is the kind of gameplay world many enjoy living in, where what you need, when you need it just sort of magically appears, no boring logistics required.

Aeander

When convenience and realism collide, I say fuck real life. Excessive attention to detail makes for bad gameplay (caugh Rockstar caugh).

Ancient_Exile

@Kyleran & Aeander

So, you guys think that WoW is/was better than UO, EQ and EQ2?

Anyway, we don't need everything that Amaranthar mentioned.  But I do think a little more realism makes more games more immersive and entertaining.  And I really don't think I and Amaranthar are alone in that.

Theocritus

Realism is almost always a pain in the butt.....THings like eating, drinking, sleeping, etc have no place in most MMOs....They are just worthless time sinks.

Aeander

Ancient_Exile said:

@Kyleran & Aeander

So, you guys think that WoW is/was better than UO, EQ and EQ2?

Anyway, we don't need everything that Amaranthar mentioned.  But I do think a little more realism makes more games more immersive and entertaining.  And I really don't think I and Amaranthar are alone in that.

I don't care for any of the above. But probably, yeah.

And no one is alone in anything. Just because I don't like overindulgent realism doesn't mean that there isn't a market for it. Red Dead Redemption 2 sold very well, despite the realism making so many mundane aspects of gameplay obnoxious and intrusive. There's a market for everything, and that's a good thing.

Ungood

I want my character to shit their pants mid fight from time to time.. because realism mutherfucker!  

Ancient_Exile

@Theocritus - What, in your opinion, would not be considered a useless time sink in an MMORPG?

@Aeander - What are your favorite MMORPGs, if you don't mind me asking?

Ungood

Ancient_Exile said:

@Theocritus - What, in your opinion, would not be considered a useless time sink in an MMORPG?

I'll field the first question.

Things that are not a useless time sink are things that give you a sense of progression, a feeling of moving forward, like working towards a goal as opposed to busywork.

Ancient_Exile

@Ungood - I liked Runes of Magic at first.  Probably because it was the first MMORPG I actually played for any length of time (way back in 2008).  Also, it was really difficult.  Later I realized this was largely because I refused to buy anything from their super-ultra greedy cash shop.  (Okay, I spent $10 once.)  Furthermore, having horrible XP debt for dying eventually made me afraid to die and made me feel more of a connection with my character.  I think this actually made the game more entertaining for me at the time.

World of Warcraft I played a bit from the end of 2010 to the beginning of 2011.  At first I thought I was really good at it, then I realized that questing in that game was just super easy.  Especially in comparison to Runes of Magic.  Then I got bored.  I could have played to level 70, but I quit pretty soon after hitting 60.  I was just tired of the endlessly repetitive quests.

Everquest 2 I played for over 7 months during 2014.  Got two characters to max level (which was 95 at the time).  Liked it much better than WoW.  Was much more interesting to me.  Part of that was because there was a little more realism.  Like your characters had to have food and drink handy (equipped) or they would eventually suffer stat penalties.  (Though I think they no longer died of hunger & thirst in a half hour w/out food and drink as was the case originally.)  However, I soon grew tired of the game after realizing that end game was just constant repetition of the same few quests and dungeons.  In a basically meaningless quest for better gear. 

So, I tried Champions Online a bit, didn't like it.  Then I switched to Neverwinter.  That was actually fun for awhile.  Hadn't tried action combat b4.  Neverwinter still has the best action combat in any MMORPG to date.  IMO.  However, I had a like-hate relationship with that game.  It's P2W (especially the PVP) and the endgame grind is horrendous.  I think it's gotten even worse now, as they reduced player's ability to accumulate Astral Diamonds.

I've tested out most of the top-selling, most popular MMORPGs.  None of them appealed to me for very long.  BDO is crap once you get up to lvl 50 or so.  FFXIV is okay, but not good.  ESO I could have played a little last week, but after making a character and getting past the intro, I just wasn't interested.  DDO I suppose I can stomache for a little while.  Probably get a character up to max level eventually.  But I very much doubt the game will hold my attention for long after I do so.  EVE seems like it may be one of the better MMORPGs available to play at this time.  However, I've never played it, as I much prefer medieval fantasy over pretty much any other genre.  Though I suppose some kind of historical, modern, superhero, or cyberpunk MMORPG might be okay.  Actually, come to think of it, I've kind of soured on superheroes now.

Ancient_Exile

@Ungood - So you don't want anything in an MMORPG that's simply there to give you a feeling of immersion. 

What about raiding?  Don't you often have to participate in several raids to get a drop that you can use?  Or, if in a raiding guild, to even have the possibility of being allowed to roll for a drop that you can use?

Do players complain about having to organize their banks or bags?  Though maybe some never do it, I suppose.  Is anything not directly related to the acquisition of wealth and power a useless time sink in an MMORPG? 

Iselin

Immersion is not about realism it's about world self-consistency.

Chat channels with political talk or which pizza is best break my immersion. As do tuxedos and bunny suits, motorcycles in medieval settings and in-game holidays tied to Halloween or any other RL holiday.

As to actual MMO mechanics I want to spend my time doing things that have enjoyable and engaging mechanics. I don't want to pay bills or do tax returns in my MMOs. All of RL's  mundanities can screw right off and stay away from my games.

Ancient_Exile

@Xodic- I definitely want my character to be able do other meaningful things in MMORPGs besides exploring, fighting, looting, buying/selling, and crafting.  Some things have the potential to add depth and flavor to a virtual world, some do not.  As Kyleran stated earlier, we often see characters eat in movies and tv shows.  It's a communal activity (or at least it used to be) wherein people get together and talk, so it can be a useful scene in a story or dramatic production.  We often also see characters sleep, change clothes, and all other sorts of mundane things.  Why?  At least part of it is because it makes us feel like the characters in books, comic books, movies, and tv shows are real human beings who do real things that real human beings do.  And thus, those things help to increase our connection to the characters and our immersion in the story or movie, etc.

Also, there are 5 Types of Conflict in Literature:

Man Versus Self

Man Versus Society

Man Versus Man

Man Versus Nature

Man Versus Supernatural

Fighting hunger, thirst, lack of sleep, cold, heat, the availability or durability of necessary or useful items, the lack of the ability to see in the dark (if your character isn't a race with infravision, such as elves, dwarves, or orcs) could be considered part of the conflict of Man vs Nature or even Man vs Self.

So, while perhaps not as glamorous as the conflicts we usually see in modern MMORPGs such as Man vs Man/Demi-human/Monster or Man vs Supernatural, the things I mentioned in my OP are part of a never-ending conflict which all humans deal with on a day-to-day basis.  We need to eat, sleep, and perform various other activities in order to survive and thrive in the real world.  Of course, we don't need to feature vulgar or private things in games (such as using the bathroom).  Notice that books and movies didn't usually portray such things until post-modern times.  During a time when, it can be argued, society has become more decadent.  But that's neither here nor there.

Ancient_Exile

@Iselin and others

Would it be okay if there was one modern MMORPG on the market that was the kind of MMORPG I and some others would like to play?  Or must all MMORPGs be only the kind that you and some others would like to play?

Iselin

Ancient_Exile said:

@Iselin and others

Would it be okay if there was one modern MMORPG on the market that was the kind of MMORPG I and some others would like to play?  Or must all MMORPGs be only the kind that you and some others would like to play?

Of course. Especially if the inherent feeling of superior taste typically evidenced by devotees is kept to the inner voice where it belongs

Ungood

Ancient_Exile said:

@Ungood - So you don't want anything in an MMORPG that's simply there to give you a feeling of immersion. 

What about raiding?  Don't you often have to participate in several raids to get a drop that you can use?  Or, if in a raiding guild, to even have the possibility of being allowed to roll for a drop that you can use?

Do players complain about having to organize their banks or bags?  Though maybe some never do it, I suppose.  Is anything not directly related to the acquisition of wealth and power a useless time sink in an MMORPG? 

Depends on how IF it makes me feel immersed, also depends on if it makes sense to the game itself.

To use an Example: Item Wear.

Case in point, DDO has item wear, but this makes sense as in that game world, as there are mobs that have direct and noteworthy abilities to damage your weapons and armor, this is a direct trait they have to destroy things like metal weapons, which is what increases their challenge rating, and requires players to prepare to face them, by equipping in some cases wooden or glass weapons, otherwise in the midst of a single fight they destroy your weapons and armor, leaving you in a bad situation to get through the rest of the dungeon. While annoying as all hell, it is a very intrinsic part of the game.

At the same time to drop item wear into a game just to give it item wear is not immersive, it ends up feeling like a Checkbox feature, as opposed to a real part of the game, a prime example of this was Item wear in GW2, it didn't serve any noteworthy or intrinsic purpose in the game, it was there just to be there.

To use another example: Eating and Drinking.

In DDO, eating and drinking and resting in the Tavern were also parts of the game because they were part of the game in D&D.  They have since sped that up with Airships, but at one time, if you had a large HP pool, you would be spending some time in the Tavern healing up after a bad run. This of course was an ideal moment to sell your junk, organize your inventory, repair your gear, etc.. or just talk smack in chat during the downtime.

In GW2, food and "drink" are optional, but gave stat boosts, so they are attractive and a solid part of the game not a necessity. 

In games like EQ, drinking and eating where required and just flat out annoying, and IMHO served no real purpose or point in the game, you just needed to drink water and eat food at intervals, to drink water and eat food at intervals, and you could not even sub beer or other drinks for water, you had to drink water and eat food. 

In the end, features need to fit their game world, they can't just be there to be there.

But then again, I am a strong proponent for games being designed with a set demographic in mind, not a catch all.

This is why I am very much against "Check Box" features, anything put into a game should feel like an intrinsic and noteworthy part of that game, not something tacked on or shoved in, just because it's a feature players think they want.

Ancient_Exile

@Iselin

Is there was a game available to play such as the one I've described in my posts here and elsewhere, I most likely would have no cause to visit this forum.

BeansnBread

I've been fighting a little bit with this realism/immersion question during this glorious crazy modded Skyrim run I'm in the middle of.

I've followed what is, in my opinion at least, a completely amazing and also insane modding guide here (DarkLadyLexy's Legacy of the Dragonborn Guide). As I've been customizing my experience over time, there are 3 mods that I have disabled:

Frostfall - A wonderful mod that simulates weathers effects on your person and requires you to mitigate those effects through clothing, warm fires, etc. It also disables fast travel and focuses on traveling through the use of carriages/boats.

Realistic Needs & Diseases - Another great mod that lets you know when you are getting hungry or thirsty and so you have mitigate by eating something 2 or 3 times and in game day. 

Keep it Clean - A bathing mod. Every once in a while, you should bathe to remove the negative effects of becoming dirty. Perhaps once a day is enough.

There are many mods that work in tandem with these to try and develop a more realistic feel to the game. I was excited to try this new way of playing Skyrim in a fully featured way like this combination of mods seems to offer. And I did play for quite a while like that.

Eventually though, the veil of pretend realism faded. It began to become busy work. When it came to food and water, I was pressing a "b" and "n" keybind to stave off hunger and thirst. When it came to warmth, I had to change clothes in and out whenever I started to get cold. Sometimes I used a quick access wheel to build a fire to get warm. And when it came to cleaning, every single day, I would go to an Inn and pay them 10 gold to clean myself.

In the end, I was never in any danger and nothing about it was difficult. You get small buffs for maintaining yourself and small to large debuffs for ignoring them. It was just adding busy work to everything and honestly, I just felt like it was wasting my time. What seemed like interesting concepts, ended up being cumbersome and annoying. And the day that I turned these features off, it felt so much better to play.

Iselin

Ancient_Exile said:

@Iselin

Is there was a game available to play such as the one I've described in my posts here and elsewhere, I most likely would have no cause to visit this forum.

I would and I have for more than decade. I don't just come here when I'm bored and have nothing that I want to play.

There are very good discussions about specific games, MMOs in general, MMO development, specific mechanics, etc. to be had here now and then. Not a lot lately but it still happens occasionally.

Ancient_Exile

@Ungood

I don't want to change any MMORPGs available to play at this time.  But I would like just one game to be designed with the features and systems that I've mentioned.  And, yes, they would all be implemented so as to feel vital and necessary, not just frills and useless baggage.  I do believe that the kind of game I have in mind would appeal to a much wider audience than simply those who already play MMORPGs at the moment.  Why?  Because the game would be about a lot more than fighting and looting in order to gain power and wealth.  Power and wealth which, as I've mentioned before, you can't really do a whole lot with in most modern MMORPGs.

Ancient_Exile

@BeansnBread

I get really tired of fighting the same mobs over and over, doing the same quests over and over, raiding the same dungeons and over.  So, in the end, I just quit playing the game.

BeansnBread

Ancient_Exile said:

@BeansnBread

I get really tired of fighting the same mobs over and over, doing the same quests over and over, raiding the same dungeons and over.  So, in the end, I just quit playing the game.

If you don't like doing the same things over and over again, I don't think realism mechanics are going to help you.

Ancient_Exile

@Iselin

Excellent.

Amathe

Good post. I most enjoy games that have immersion promoting features.