In the United States and most first world nations, citizens generally expect (depending on the neighborhood) to be able to walk unarmed down the street without getting killed, robbed, or abused by other citizens. Does this perhaps permeate somewhat into our expectations of how our overall experience in MMORPGs should be? And yet our characters, certainly not those living in a medieval fantasy setting, would likely not expect this to be true in most areas of their world. This unpleasant reality was present to a great extent in our own medieval past. Part of why such great pains were undertaken to build walls, towers, forts, and castles.
Not to say that we should allow random PKing, stealing, and abusing at all times everywhere in our MMORPGs. Just that a Medieval Fantasy World that is not very dangerous is not realistic (internally consistent) at all.
That's the trouble. Either have PKing, or don't. Don't hem and haw and mumble about "exceptions to the rules", either do or do not
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
In the United States and most first world nations, citizens generally expect (depending on the neighborhood) to be able to walk unarmed down the street without getting killed, robbed, or abused by other citizens. Does this perhaps permeate somewhat into our expectations of how our overall experience in MMORPGs should be? And yet our characters, certainly not those living in a medieval fantasy setting, would likely not expect this to be true in most areas of their world. This unpleasant reality was present to a great extent in our own medieval past. Part of why such great pains were undertaken to build walls, towers, forts, and castles.
Not to say that we should allow random PKing, stealing, and abusing at all times everywhere in our MMORPGs. Just that a Medieval Fantasy World that is not very dangerous is not realistic (internally consistent) at all.
That's the trouble. Either have PKing, or don't. Don't hem and haw and mumble about "exceptions to the rules", either do or do not
Are you saying there is no try?
I hate flags and PK penalties. Less realistic though it may be I'm all for PvP/PvE segregation. PvE in most zones and full-on PvP in a few. It's not like DAoC didn't come up with that perfect formula nearly 20 years ago.
Also, there's no crying in PvP
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If a level 1 player steps out of town and gets ganked, you've lost the battle and that player leaves. Ask UO about that. If that level 1 player can hold their own against a level 5 player, or even worse, a top leveled player at 20th level, why even bother to play if there is no difference in the amount of time you've put in?
But if they actually knew what game they were in they wouldn't. Only the players who have no clue as to what they signed up for would be leaving.
If I go to a waterpark and get wet and leave in a huff, that's on me. Why wouldn't I know that a water park means you are going to get wet?
When I logged into Lineage 2 for the first time, presumably to play only for a week to see what an mmorpg was like, I knew that there was player killing right and left AND that gold was difficult to come by.
I remember leaving dark elf village to find the quest area (such as they were) and being surrounded by other players expecting any one of them to attack someone. Maybe me.
And you know what happened? Nothing. The first time I was killed by a player much higher than me I didn't leave because I knew that was part of the game. Had I not wanted that experience or better yet, known that was part of the experience I wouldn't have played the game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's not like DAoC didn't come up with that perfect formula nearly 20 years ago.
DAoC i never played it but sounds very similar to Asheron's Call 2 my very first mmorpg. It was also my first introduction to pk'ing as well.
I'm frolicking along with my happy innocent naive little toon, and there was a river ahead, oh there is a bridge i'll easily cross there, when i got to the other side of the bridge...... BOOOOOM!!!!! CRACKLING LIGHTENING, THUNDER, SPELLS, FIRE, ICE and i was insta dead.
OMG wtf just happened, i literally thought it was a bug in the game hahaha
ok wow i'll just cross again, instant replay WTF??? OK then f the bridge i'll just swim across, get to the other side WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON????
So there must be a bug when i enter that new zone, oh great look there is a bunch of players down almost under the bridge i'll go ask them... MELTED!!! again!
obv they were camping noobs like myself.
There were zones which were pvp and others that were pve, same as classic, just no full loot. Back playing classic last night, damn is it ever packed with players and we are one of the least populated servers.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
If a level 1 player steps out of town and gets ganked, you've lost the battle and that player leaves. Ask UO about that. If that level 1 player can hold their own against a level 5 player, or even worse, a top leveled player at 20th level, why even bother to play if there is no difference in the amount of time you've put in?
But if they actually knew what game they were in they wouldn't. Only the players who have no clue as to what they signed up for would be leaving.
If I go to a waterpark and get wet and leave in a huff, that's on me. Why wouldn't I know that a water park means you are going to get wet?
When I logged into Lineage 2 for the first time, presumably to play only for a week to see what an mmorpg was like, I knew that there was player killing right and left AND that gold was difficult to come by.
I remember leaving dark elf village to find the quest area (such as they were) and being surrounded by other players expecting any one of them to attack someone. Maybe me.
And you know what happened? Nothing. The first time I was killed by a player much higher than me I didn't leave because I knew that was part of the game. Had I not wanted that experience or better yet, known that was part of the experience I wouldn't have played the game.
I agree! And why I don't/won't play PvP MMORPGs. Not everyone is as "enlightened" as I, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It's not like DAoC didn't come up with that perfect formula nearly 20 years ago.
DAoC i never played it but sounds very similar to Asheron's Call 2 my very first mmorpg. It was also my first introduction to pk'ing as well.
I'm frolicking along with my happy innocent naive little toon, and there was a river ahead, oh there is a bridge i'll easily cross there, when i got to the other side of the bridge...... BOOOOOM!!!!! CRACKLING LIGHTENING, THUNDER, SPELLS, FIRE, ICE and i was insta dead.
OMG wtf just happened, i literally thought it was a bug in the game hahaha
ok wow i'll just cross again, instant replay WTF??? OK then f the bridge i'll just swim across, get to the other side WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON????
So there must be a bug when i enter that new zone, oh great look there is a bunch of players down almost under the bridge i'll go ask them... MELTED!!! again!
obv they were camping noobs like myself.
There were zones which were pvp and others that were pve, same as classic, just no full loot. Back playing classic last night, damn is it ever packed with players and we are one of the least populated servers.
There should have been warning signs. "Warning! Gankers ahead!"
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In the United States and most first world nations, citizens generally expect (depending on the neighborhood) to be able to walk unarmed down the street without getting killed, robbed, or abused by other citizens. Does this perhaps permeate somewhat into our expectations of how our overall experience in MMORPGs should be? And yet our characters, certainly not those living in a medieval fantasy setting, would likely not expect this to be true in most areas of their world. This unpleasant reality was present to a great extent in our own medieval past. Part of why such great pains were undertaken to build walls, towers, forts, and castles.
Not to say that we should allow random PKing, stealing, and abusing at all times everywhere in our MMORPGs. Just that a Medieval Fantasy World that is not very dangerous is not realistic (internally consistent) at all.
That's the trouble. Either have PKing, or don't. Don't hem and haw and mumble about "exceptions to the rules", either do or do not
Are you saying there is no try?
I hate flags and PK penalties. Less realistic though it may be I'm all for PvP/PvE segregation. PvE in most zones and full-on PvP in a few. It's not like DAoC didn't come up with that perfect formula nearly 20 years ago.
Also, there's no crying in PvP
That is interesting. Realm vs Realm (and even another vs. Realm) seems to be a good mix. That's whole huge difference between Open World PvP, which is what many want and seek.
What gets to me is the frustration. If I have ZERO chance of defending or even "getting even" if taken by surprise, then I want no part of it. It's not fun at all for me. There's no "added excitement", no "realism" involved, thanks to very little consequences. If there are power gaps, as RPGs have, then I will get frustrated.
However, I'd love to see PvP'ers all around the world to get an MMORPG that satisfies them all. Everyone should have games they enjoy playing, even if I never play them
PS: Oh! And:
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
In the United States and most first world nations, citizens generally expect (depending on the neighborhood) to be able to walk unarmed down the street without getting killed, robbed, or abused by other citizens. Does this perhaps permeate somewhat into our expectations of how our overall experience in MMORPGs should be? And yet our characters, certainly not those living in a medieval fantasy setting, would likely not expect this to be true in most areas of their world. This unpleasant reality was present to a great extent in our own medieval past. Part of why such great pains were undertaken to build walls, towers, forts, and castles.
Not to say that we should allow random PKing, stealing, and abusing at all times everywhere in our MMORPGs. Just that a Medieval Fantasy World that is not very dangerous is not realistic (internally consistent) at all.
That's the trouble. Either have PKing, or don't. Don't hem and haw and mumble about "exceptions to the rules", either do or do not
Are you saying there is no try?
I hate flags and PK penalties. Less realistic though it may be I'm all for PvP/PvE segregation. PvE in most zones and full-on PvP in a few. It's not like DAoC didn't come up with that perfect formula nearly 20 years ago.
Also, there's no crying in PvP
That is interesting. Realm vs Realm (and even another vs. Realm) seems to be a good mix. That's whole huge difference between Open World PvP, which is what many want and seek.
What gets to me is the frustration. If I have ZERO chance of defending or even "getting even" if taken by surprise, then I want no part of it. It's not fun at all for me. There's no "added excitement", no "realism" involved. If there are power gaps, as RPGs have, then I will get frustrated.
However, I'd love to see PvP'ers all around the world to get an MMORPG that satisfies them all. Everyone should have games they enjoy playing, even if I never play them
Well another of the core features of RvRvR style PvP is that you need to siege and conquer keeps and castles and for that you need a lot of players to attack or defend.
Consequently most of the PvP happens in large blobs where you're just one of a 100 or more. Weak players, healers and glass cannons can all take part and play a role. In ESO for example it's very common for the inexperienced or weak to just plop down a ballista or trebuchet and use that to knock down walls or even kill bad guys from long range. Tjose siege weapons do exactly the same amount of damage if a low level undergeared player uses them as when king shit does.
The kind of 1v1 PvP most people think about can happen there on the edges or large fights or when you're travelling to join your group etc. but it's rare. Zerg v. zerg is the name of the game in those.
Some people hate that and would rather play quickie FPS-like scenarios with scoreboards and shit or just gank 1v1 but that type of PvP doesn't really interest me at all. I like my massively multiplayer games to have a lot of massive in them
PS. I was thinking more about this:
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
How about this? If my player character not only gains too much disfavor (negative reputation) with opposing factions (and even allied factions), but also loses too much favor with my own faction by being too careless and disobedient (again negative reputation), then my character becomes an outlaw.
If my character is a faction-less wanted criminal or an insane murderous psychopath (or a villain so infamous that no faction wants to claim me as their own), then any other player character can then kill me with impunity. Unless or until I reform my ways to the point where I can find safety in some province, somewhere.
Though I may also want to play a character so evil that I can only find my home among undead or demons. Not to say there wouldn't be an undead faction. But an undead faction would generally ruled over by a lich or something and would probably be Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil rather than being Chaotic Evil.
Wow, what a great thread.
I see what you are after now. And I approve. However, there is a great deal to think about. This affects an awful lot of game design.
I want it to work. But I need to consider a bunch of stuff before I comment much on this. An example is Fast Travel. That can be a big problem in a PvP system if PKers can escape quickly to distant places. And thinking about limiting it to Moon Gates Within Factional Lands has brought up a really cool idea (IMO).
Suppose Moon Gates are tied to Constellations, which in turn are tied to the gods. And each Moon Gate is dedicated to one deity, and that deity's constellation. !2 total Moon Gates in each Factional Land, devoted to 12 different deities.
So these Moon Gates scroll through the other constellations and their gates, based on something akin to astrology. On a dial, so to speak. At a rate of 1 constellation per minute or so. That can feel very slow to wait for up to 12 minutes to get the gate destination you want. Not a killer, but painful for gamers who want to get where they are going fast.
So you want to go to a certain Gate, but it's far away on the dial (visible on the construction device), but a Cleric of that deity (the one you want to go to, can cast a spell to "bring time forward", and allow the Moon Gate to actually change it's current destination to that Gate (the Cleric's deity's constellation/gate). And the Cleric can make Scrolls for this use, and sell them, for other players to make use of this time saver.
Or you can simply allow Players to manually change the Gate's destination.
The thing about an idea like this is that it can be added to other game features and make the game world more interesting.
Who says that MMORPGs need to have huge power gaps between PCs (Player Characters)? Who says that MMORPGs require massively vertical progression? Why can't we have limited/realistic vertical progression? Who says MMORPGs need to be so gear-dependent? Why can't we only gain limited/realistic advantages from gear? Why can't magic and divine/infernal power have their limits? Why can't we also have some horizontal progression to unlock more options? Why can't we have other forms of progression besides those directly related to combat? Why can't we gain social, economic, political, and military ranks within a faction? Why can't Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence be major factors in an MMORPG?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I don't think fast travel is necessary in MMORPGs. Some very highly-skilled mages might have the ability to teleport or open temporary gates. Some priests might also have access to similar spells/prayers. But I don't think fast travel should be common at all.
EDIT: And if player characters could use fast travel, why couldn't mobs and enemy NPCS? Why couldn't armies use them to invade far away lands or at least kingdoms or provinces that didn't neighbor them?
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Sure, Boroimir attacked Frodo for the ring. Guess what happened? They had a great heart to heart and he stopped his attacks and ended dying to save Frodo's life. That doesn't translate to MMMORPGs, though I'd love to see it happen
If you're talking about the books, that is *not* what happened. Boromir psyched himself up with justification as to why he should be given the Ring, and then he tried to take it by force. This caused Frodo to put on the Ring and flee. After that, Frodo struck out on his own, only to be joined by Sam.
Boromir, after he stopped spazing out, realized what he had done and sacrificed himself to save Merry and Pippen from Orcs (he failed at that, BTW).
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
If a level 1 player steps out of town and gets ganked, you've lost the battle and that player leaves. Ask UO about that. If that level 1 player can hold their own against a level 5 player, or even worse, a top leveled player at 20th level, why even bother to play if there is no difference in the amount of time you've put in?
But if they actually knew what game they were in they wouldn't. Only the players who have no clue as to what they signed up for would be leaving.
If I go to a waterpark and get wet and leave in a huff, that's on me. Why wouldn't I know that a water park means you are going to get wet?
When I logged into Lineage 2 for the first time, presumably to play only for a week to see what an mmorpg was like, I knew that there was player killing right and left AND that gold was difficult to come by.
I remember leaving dark elf village to find the quest area (such as they were) and being surrounded by other players expecting any one of them to attack someone. Maybe me.
And you know what happened? Nothing. The first time I was killed by a player much higher than me I didn't leave because I knew that was part of the game. Had I not wanted that experience or better yet, known that was part of the experience I wouldn't have played the game.
I agree! And why I don't/won't play PvP MMORPGs. Not everyone is as "enlightened" as I, though
I don't want to have PVP in MMORPGs because I have some unhealthy desire to dominate other players and kill their characters. I want to have PVP in MMORPGs because I believe it's the only way to ever make a true Role-Playing Game online. Absent the development of incredibly advanced AI. Which I highly doubt will happen in my lifetime. Certainly not anytime soon.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
I 100% agree! If you have to find some "punishment" to deter behavior, why have it at all?
I guess too many players dislike "co-op" play and prefer "head to head conflict" play. And there is nothing wrong with good, healthy competition.
The problem is: RPG. Players advance at different rates (leveling), have varied skills and abilities, have vastly varied weapons and defenses, and are NOT equal on so many levels within the game, let alone player abilities. There WILL be abuses. The bc_bully's who want to win "at all costs" will do so and feel uber. Those seeking "fair fights" to test their mettle are far outweighed by dickwads that want to ruin other people's enjoyment.
The concept is good, and I understand the desires for PvP in MMORPGs. I'd enjoy it too, if it fit the genre. But it doesn't. There are just too many "balance factors" that makes this not even remotely viable. It bugs me, because I want friendly fire in my MMORPGs, but the possibilities for abuse makes it untenable.
Sure, Boroimir attacked Frodo for the ring. Guess what happened? They had a great heart to heart and he stopped his attacks and ended dying to save Frodo's life. That doesn't translate to MMMORPGs, though I'd love to see it happen
Kind of the point I was making earlier about sterile gameplay. Instead of reigning in behaviors and undesired consequences you have eliminated everything bad. Death penalty used to be punishment for bad gameplay choices and bad luck. Is that good or bad thing depends on taste.
You have to understand that MMORPG are largely behavior controls. Everything you do is there to get a specific behavior from the players. For PVE you can make complex rules of how players interact or not, loot and etc to get desired behaviors to a degree.
When it comes to PvP there usually isn't a lot of rules for complex human behavior and simple interactions. Usually comes down to who can kill who and when. Without proper rules and consequences you get the worst behaviors. That's why it is silly to compare punishments and rules being outrageous when there really aren't many PvP. Most rules are simply you can or can't kill someone.
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
Except many PvPers go after newbies and other soft targets. They don't want challenge, they want to crush the weak.
I don't think fast travel is necessary in MMORPGs. Some very highly-skilled mages might have the ability to teleport or open temporary gates. Some priests might also have access to similar spells/prayers. But I don't think fast travel should be common at all.
EDIT: And if player characters could use fast travel, why couldn't mobs and enemy NPCS? Why couldn't armies use them to invade far away lands or at least kingdoms or provinces that didn't neighbor them?
Well, first of all, that's why I laid it out as within Factional Lands, so that invasions can't be done from outside.
The main thing is, though, you'll have players spread out, and a guild might want to run something together, so you kind of need to give players some ability to gather quickly. But again, this would be only within a Factional land area.
Gate spells should be in, too. But like you said, only for powerful characters. But doesn't that give them an ability to move a number of players? How far? And repeated use, over a few minutes to an hour, that allows for a small army to move whatever the distance allowed.
Remember too that players can log out, so a small army can be built up while logging out for a later invasion.
Edit: These Gates in my idea could have Guardians, too. Something that makes them very dangerous, maybe suicide, for criminals/anti-faction players (or even MOBs) to use. Remember they are tied to the gods. Deities that are relevant to said Faction. (Might want to adjust the number of deities, and the destinations/constellations.
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
If the NPC soldier can't stop the PKers, that'll defeat the purpose and won't deter PK.
If the NPC actually stopped the PKERs, that just make the zone a safe zone, and also make ganking pointless.
If it is something in between, a weak NPC soldier can constantly follow the ganker around and weaken the ganker, that'll deter the ganker by making him more vulnerable to other player.
A prison system also sound fun. When a PKer died, he get sent to prison, and forced to mine for an hour before he can leave. (the person killed the ganker also get a portion of the mineral the ganker mined in prison) Alternatively the ganker can pay gold to leave the prison and the person killed the ganker can get a potion of the gold.
Prison, especially as you outlined it, does nothing to stop a PKer. And the point is to prevent the large number of PKers from constantly rolling players, and causing them to leave the game.
I think most games let you afk in the prison. If the penalty is harsher I think it can make PKing less rampart. That is why I suggest you have to actually do physical works(for example mining) in prison to get out.
There are also games that make ganker loss skill points or experience.
I think many people's argument against ganker is they have nothing to loss. So noobs and casuals are bitter they got griefed and even if the ganker died he can quickly replace his gear and keep griefing people.
Yes, time in prison can work to reduce players'willingness to PK. BUT that's if there are no "outs." Like I said, I have not seen a game with prison that didn't have "escape" as an out.
You'd need a healthy dose of time as punishment. With Alts, how effective can that be? I do like the idea of the labor producing something of value, and some of that going to the victims. The more victims the more labor required to get out. But if that labor reduces the time requirement to hours that don't equal punishment enough to cause the PKer to reflect on it's worth (PKing vs. prison it doesn't do the job.
I'd say forget the labor reduction and the time element involved, and just have the labor as punishment (with no way around it). That way the victims get something, and the PKer gets their punishment. But it needs to be boring time that's just not worth the PKing and looting. That could work. And be a pretty cool game system (except for PKers).
But then, they'd script it and it wouldn't work as a deterrent.
@Ancient_Exile I'm rethinking the PK penalty in your concept. Might not need it if death sends them to the Faction that they've earned, far far away in evil lands. Or even Dungeons. But I'm not sure.
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
Except many PvPers go after newbies and other soft targets. They don't want challenge, they want to crush the weak.
In Faction-based PVP with a system of Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence, it would matter whom you killed, where, when, and why. Players would be free to act like villains, criminals, and even murderous psychopaths, but they would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior. And some of those consequences could be very severe, depending on the faction to which a player character belonged. Player characters could gain such a bad reputation that they could even become faction-less (expelled from even lawful evil/neutral evil factions). At that point, they would have great difficulty in finding a safe haven and they could be killed with impunity by any other player characters.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I don't think fast travel is necessary in MMORPGs. Some very highly-skilled mages might have the ability to teleport or open temporary gates. Some priests might also have access to similar spells/prayers. But I don't think fast travel should be common at all.
EDIT: And if player characters could use fast travel, why couldn't mobs and enemy NPCS? Why couldn't armies use them to invade far away lands or at least kingdoms or provinces that didn't neighbor them?
Well, first of all, that's why I laid it out as within Factional Lands, so that invasions can't be done from outside.
The main thing is, though, you'll have players spread out, and a guild might want to run something together, so you kind of need to give players some ability to gather quickly. But again, this would be only within a Factional land area.
Gate spells should be in, too. But like you said, only for powerful characters. But doesn't that give them an ability to move a number of players? How far? And repeated use, over a few minutes to an hour, that allows for a small army to move whatever the distance allowed.
Remember too that players can log out, so a small army can be built up while logging out for a later invasion.
Edit: These Gates in my idea could have Guardians, too. Something that makes them very dangerous, maybe suicide, for criminals/anti-faction players (or even MOBs) to use. Remember they are tied to the gods. Deities that are relevant to said Faction. (Might want to adjust the number of deities, and the destinations/constellations.
It's possible I suppose.
About the mages who could teleport or cast gate spells. Those spells would have a long cool-down timer. Couldn't be used frequently.
And permanent gates could have powerful guardians, that's true.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
If the NPC soldier can't stop the PKers, that'll defeat the purpose and won't deter PK.
If the NPC actually stopped the PKERs, that just make the zone a safe zone, and also make ganking pointless.
If it is something in between, a weak NPC soldier can constantly follow the ganker around and weaken the ganker, that'll deter the ganker by making him more vulnerable to other player.
A prison system also sound fun. When a PKer died, he get sent to prison, and forced to mine for an hour before he can leave. (the person killed the ganker also get a portion of the mineral the ganker mined in prison) Alternatively the ganker can pay gold to leave the prison and the person killed the ganker can get a potion of the gold.
Prison, especially as you outlined it, does nothing to stop a PKer. And the point is to prevent the large number of PKers from constantly rolling players, and causing them to leave the game.
I think most games let you afk in the prison. If the penalty is harsher I think it can make PKing less rampart. That is why I suggest you have to actually do physical works(for example mining) in prison to get out.
There are also games that make ganker loss skill points or experience.
I think many people's argument against ganker is they have nothing to loss. So noobs and casuals are bitter they got griefed and even if the ganker died he can quickly replace his gear and keep griefing people.
Yes, time in prison can work to reduce players'willingness to PK. BUT that's if there are no "outs." Like I said, I have not seen a game with prison that didn't have "escape" as an out.
You'd need a healthy dose of time as punishment. With Alts, how effective can that be? I do like the idea of the labor producing something of value, and some of that going to the victims. The more victims the more labor required to get out. But if that labor reduces the time requirement to hours that don't equal punishment enough to cause the PKer to reflect on it's worth (PKing vs. prison it doesn't do the job.
I'd say forget the labor reduction and the time element involved, and just have the labor as punishment (with no way around it). That way the victims get something, and the PKer gets their punishment. But it needs to be boring time that's just not worth the PKing and looting. That could work. And be a pretty cool game system (except for PKers).
But then, they'd script it and it wouldn't work as a deterrent.
I think it's better to have the player character eventually gain such a bad reputation/become so infamous that he/she becomes faction-less, unable to find a safe haven, and able to be killed with impunity by any other player characters until the player character reforms his/her ways.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
If the NPC soldier can't stop the PKers, that'll defeat the purpose and won't deter PK.
If the NPC actually stopped the PKERs, that just make the zone a safe zone, and also make ganking pointless.
If it is something in between, a weak NPC soldier can constantly follow the ganker around and weaken the ganker, that'll deter the ganker by making him more vulnerable to other player.
A prison system also sound fun. When a PKer died, he get sent to prison, and forced to mine for an hour before he can leave. (the person killed the ganker also get a portion of the mineral the ganker mined in prison) Alternatively the ganker can pay gold to leave the prison and the person killed the ganker can get a potion of the gold.
Prison, especially as you outlined it, does nothing to stop a PKer. And the point is to prevent the large number of PKers from constantly rolling players, and causing them to leave the game.
I think most games let you afk in the prison. If the penalty is harsher I think it can make PKing less rampart. That is why I suggest you have to actually do physical works(for example mining) in prison to get out.
There are also games that make ganker loss skill points or experience.
I think many people's argument against ganker is they have nothing to loss. So noobs and casuals are bitter they got griefed and even if the ganker died he can quickly replace his gear and keep griefing people.
Yes, time in prison can work to reduce players'willingness to PK. BUT that's if there are no "outs." Like I said, I have not seen a game with prison that didn't have "escape" as an out.
You'd need a healthy dose of time as punishment. With Alts, how effective can that be? I do like the idea of the labor producing something of value, and some of that going to the victims. The more victims the more labor required to get out. But if that labor reduces the time requirement to hours that don't equal punishment enough to cause the PKer to reflect on it's worth (PKing vs. prison it doesn't do the job.
I'd say forget the labor reduction and the time element involved, and just have the labor as punishment (with no way around it). That way the victims get something, and the PKer gets their punishment. But it needs to be boring time that's just not worth the PKing and looting. That could work. And be a pretty cool game system (except for PKers).
But then, they'd script it and it wouldn't work as a deterrent.
To me the point of prison is to give a win to the victims. Even I kill the random PK they just come right back. Lock their account in RT prison even if it's just 3 days or 72 hours. They can't repeat kill you or stalk you.
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
Except many PvPers go after newbies and other soft targets. They don't want challenge, they want to crush the weak.
In Faction-based PVP with a system of Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence, it would matter whom you killed, where, when, and why. Players would be free to act like villains, criminals, and even murderous psychopaths, but they would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior. And some of those consequences could be very severe, depending on the faction to which a player character belonged. Player characters could gain such a bad reputation that they could even become faction-less (expelled from even lawful evil/neutral evil factions). At that point, they would have great difficulty in finding a safe haven and they could be killed with impunity by any other player characters.
And also, if I understand this correctly, the NPC/MOB Guardians of a realm they are trying to "attack." Correct? That game support for would be innocent targets seems very important.
How about criminal and villainous PKers being hunted down by NPC soldiers or assassins of whatever faction or factions with whom they've earned a significant amount of disfavor? What about the possibility of earning the wrath of certain deities (perhaps those worshiped by the player characters he or she has slain) and being hounded by supernatural subordinates of those deities?
I don't know, truly. Would it be enough to deter you?
Punishment needs to fit the crime. The PKer just took possible hours of gameplay from their victim. They need to suffer likewise, in my eyes. As long as PKers can keep playing the game, there is no punishment.
PS: Are you aware of the "quote" button? It's much easier to follow multiple conversations
But it's supposed to be "play" punishment.
If a game has player killing then it's meant to be there. I really like his suggestions as they fit with game play.
Because if a player is really to be punished then why have the feature at all? It would be far easier for developers to not have player killing.
The punishment should be enough to dissuade but not enough to seem like the developers are hitting the players' hands with a ruler. Because again, "don't include player killing" if that's the route they are to go.
Yes, we want to discourage players from endlessly abusing other players, but we don't want to discourage them from playing criminals or villains.
NPC or PC?
Why must players be villains and criminals to other players?
Why can't they be?
A skilled player is almost always going to be more challenging and unpredictable then an AI-controlled NPC or Mob.
Except many PvPers go after newbies and other soft targets. They don't want challenge, they want to crush the weak.
In Faction-based PVP with a system of Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence, it would matter whom you killed, where, when, and why. Players would be free to act like villains, criminals, and even murderous psychopaths, but they would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior. And some of those consequences could be very severe, depending on the faction to which a player character belonged. Player characters could gain such a bad reputation that they could even become faction-less (expelled from even lawful evil/neutral evil factions). At that point, they would have great difficulty in finding a safe haven and they could be killed with impunity by any other player characters.
And also, if I understand this correctly, the NPC/MOB Guardians of a realm they are trying to "attack." Correct? That game support for would be innocent targets seems very important.
Right.
I was going to say that a player character is usually going to be KOS by NPCs when entering the territory of an opposing/enemy faction anyway. But maybe a player character should be able to sneak in more easily until they gain too much Renown or Infamy? Disguises might also be possible.
But, yes, an extremely criminal or villainous player character should generally expect to be KOS when entering the territory/province of a Faction with whom he/she has negative reputation. However, this also means that renowned heroic player characters should expect to be KOS when trying to enter the lands of their enemies.
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Comments
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I hate flags and PK penalties. Less realistic though it may be I'm all for PvP/PvE segregation. PvE in most zones and full-on PvP in a few. It's not like DAoC didn't come up with that perfect formula nearly 20 years ago.
Also, there's no crying in PvP
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If I go to a waterpark and get wet and leave in a huff, that's on me. Why wouldn't I know that a water park means you are going to get wet?
When I logged into Lineage 2 for the first time, presumably to play only for a week to see what an mmorpg was like, I knew that there was player killing right and left AND that gold was difficult to come by.
I remember leaving dark elf village to find the quest area (such as they were) and being surrounded by other players expecting any one of them to attack someone. Maybe me.
And you know what happened? Nothing. The first time I was killed by a player much higher than me I didn't leave because I knew that was part of the game. Had I not wanted that experience or better yet, known that was part of the experience I wouldn't have played the game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
What gets to me is the frustration. If I have ZERO chance of defending or even "getting even" if taken by surprise, then I want no part of it. It's not fun at all for me. There's no "added excitement", no "realism" involved, thanks to very little consequences. If there are power gaps, as RPGs have, then I will get frustrated.
However, I'd love to see PvP'ers all around the world to get an MMORPG that satisfies them all. Everyone should have games they enjoy playing, even if I never play them
PS:
Oh! And:
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Consequently most of the PvP happens in large blobs where you're just one of a 100 or more. Weak players, healers and glass cannons can all take part and play a role. In ESO for example it's very common for the inexperienced or weak to just plop down a ballista or trebuchet and use that to knock down walls or even kill bad guys from long range. Tjose siege weapons do exactly the same amount of damage if a low level undergeared player uses them as when king shit does.
The kind of 1v1 PvP most people think about can happen there on the edges or large fights or when you're travelling to join your group etc. but it's rare. Zerg v. zerg is the name of the game in those.
Some people hate that and would rather play quickie FPS-like scenarios with scoreboards and shit or just gank 1v1 but that type of PvP doesn't really interest me at all. I like my massively multiplayer games to have a lot of massive in them
PS. I was thinking more about this:
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I see what you are after now. And I approve.
However, there is a great deal to think about. This affects an awful lot of game design.
I want it to work. But I need to consider a bunch of stuff before I comment much on this.
An example is Fast Travel. That can be a big problem in a PvP system if PKers can escape quickly to distant places. And thinking about limiting it to Moon Gates Within Factional Lands has brought up a really cool idea (IMO).
Suppose Moon Gates are tied to Constellations, which in turn are tied to the gods.
And each Moon Gate is dedicated to one deity, and that deity's constellation.
!2 total Moon Gates in each Factional Land, devoted to 12 different deities.
So these Moon Gates scroll through the other constellations and their gates, based on something akin to astrology.
On a dial, so to speak.
At a rate of 1 constellation per minute or so. That can feel very slow to wait for up to 12 minutes to get the gate destination you want. Not a killer, but painful for gamers who want to get where they are going fast.
So you want to go to a certain Gate, but it's far away on the dial (visible on the construction device), but a Cleric of that deity (the one you want to go to, can cast a spell to "bring time forward", and allow the Moon Gate to actually change it's current destination to that Gate (the Cleric's deity's constellation/gate).
And the Cleric can make Scrolls for this use, and sell them, for other players to make use of this time saver.
Or you can simply allow Players to manually change the Gate's destination.
The thing about an idea like this is that it can be added to other game features and make the game world more interesting.
Once upon a time....
You have to understand that MMORPG are largely behavior controls. Everything you do is there to get a specific behavior from the players. For PVE you can make complex rules of how players interact or not, loot and etc to get desired behaviors to a degree.
When it comes to PvP there usually isn't a lot of rules for complex human behavior and simple interactions. Usually comes down to who can kill who and when.
Without proper rules and consequences you get the worst behaviors. That's why it is silly to compare punishments and rules being outrageous when there really aren't many PvP. Most rules are simply you can or can't kill someone.
The main thing is, though, you'll have players spread out, and a guild might want to run something together, so you kind of need to give players some ability to gather quickly.
But again, this would be only within a Factional land area.
Gate spells should be in, too. But like you said, only for powerful characters. But doesn't that give them an ability to move a number of players? How far?
And repeated use, over a few minutes to an hour, that allows for a small army to move whatever the distance allowed.
Remember too that players can log out, so a small army can be built up while logging out for a later invasion.
Edit:
These Gates in my idea could have Guardians, too. Something that makes them very dangerous, maybe suicide, for criminals/anti-faction players (or even MOBs) to use.
Remember they are tied to the gods. Deities that are relevant to said Faction.
(Might want to adjust the number of deities, and the destinations/constellations.
Once upon a time....
BUT that's if there are no "outs."
Like I said, I have not seen a game with prison that didn't have "escape" as an out.
You'd need a healthy dose of time as punishment. With Alts, how effective can that be?
I do like the idea of the labor producing something of value, and some of that going to the victims. The more victims the more labor required to get out.
But if that labor reduces the time requirement to hours that don't equal punishment enough to cause the PKer to reflect on it's worth (PKing vs. prison it doesn't do the job.
I'd say forget the labor reduction and the time element involved, and just have the labor as punishment (with no way around it). That way the victims get something, and the PKer gets their punishment. But it needs to be boring time that's just not worth the PKing and looting. That could work. And be a pretty cool game system (except for PKers).
But then, they'd script it and it wouldn't work as a deterrent.
Once upon a time....
Might not need it if death sends them to the Faction that they've earned, far far away in evil lands. Or even Dungeons.
But I'm not sure.
Once upon a time....
I think it's better to have the player character eventually gain such a bad reputation/become so infamous that he/she becomes faction-less, unable to find a safe haven, and able to be killed with impunity by any other player characters until the player character reforms his/her ways.
That game support for would be innocent targets seems very important.
Once upon a time....