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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs
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Thank you for being so informative.
Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"
I think I specifically said you are not saying this. I made a comment about rare versus hard to get.
Lol WTF is wrong with people.
I tried "soloing" with my Bards and Druids. It just wasn't fun running circles for 15 minutes or kiting for a like amount. I also was not very good at it
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.
Almost like he has no awareness whatsoever of variable rate RNG. In D3 the chance of a random legendary drop to be of the better ancient variety is 1 in 10 and the chance for it to be the best version, a Primal, is 1 in 400 which makes Primals very rare.
RNG + rarity.... pretty simple concept really.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All you need is variable rate: sword X has a 1 in 3 chance of dropping from boss z while sword y has a 1 in 300 chance to drop from the same boss.
The mechanics that determine the drop is rolling a number randomly which determines whether you get sword x or sword y or something else or nothing at all. That is all that RNG means.
No matter how many 100s of thousands of players farm the boss or how many 100s of sword y exist in the game. It would still be more rare than sword X.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
OMG I got a Greatsword of Mind-numbing Insanity with +10 in all stats! SELLING FOR 5 billion gold! ONLY ONE IN GAME EVER!
How do most games create rarity using RNG (including Everquest) you ask? Drop rates. See, when a monster dies; each loot item, or at least the ones that are not suppose to drop every time, have a drop rate, or a drop "chance". This is the same thing as rolling a D20 in D&D. The difference is the system rolls a random number for you instead of you rolling the die, and if that random number (typically between 0 and 1) is greater (or lower depending on how they wanted to develop it) than the specified chance then the item drops.
If the Sword of Mindnumbing Insanity has a drop chance delta of 0.99998 and he spawns no more than once every half hour, or maybe 1 hour, 5 hours, once per day, once a month?! you're going to be lucky to find that weapon. That is a rare item. Brought to you by RNG.
Notice I said even Everquest uses RNG. Don't believe me? You posted it yourself in one of your more recent replies:
How do you suppose they calculated the drop? RNG. IF, big IF, the chance was actually 27% then I can bet you there was a huge delay between spawns as well.
Everything in games is fabricated and using random numbers aka "rolling the dice" is always going to be a factor somewhere to help control the flow of items and to create the truly rare pieces.
it's not a "rare" item. but whateva
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
It's simple.
Rarity is a quantifier of relative distribution - how many of the same items there are within an item category.
RNG loot is a way how to affect an item distribution - there will be less items present with lower chance to drop than those with higher chance.
Since RNG is essentially a supply restriction, it will as well affect price of the item - goods in lower supply will price higher over items with higher supply.
You could argue that if everyone in the game is wearing the rarest items make them no longer rare but that would be a false argument - rarity isn't an attribute of demand, it is an attribute of supply.
Just to clear something up. Regarding the Cloak of Flames, The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.
That means, regardless of how many people killed Naggy, if the cloak showed up, only 1 of them would get it. Ideally, this means the more people that kill Naggy, the less chance you have of being the person that gets the cloak to start with, and thus the idea of DKP to earn the right to loot the cloak, IF it drops.
In that venture you do not have a 2.7% chance to get the cloak, the cloak has a 27% chance to exist in the chest, and your chances of getting it are a totally different factor.
As far as the RNG loot system goes, there is no reason for 'the mob' to be a one hour timer, as with RNG systems like that, it's a tier of mob all of which can drop this loot. IE: All Elder Wurms drop Artifact or Better.
As such the only delay in killing is the speed by which a player can kill them to keep rolling for the loot they are looking for, ergo some players will be able to kill them faster, if they work in teams, they will be able to augment this number exponentially.
However, None of this really matters to our direct discussion, as you have already address my point, and agreed with me when you said.
Which was exactly my point.
We could stop here, and call it done, since we agree.
But you talk about personal value, this is not to be confused with the direct rarity of an item.
Due to it being RNG system, all various combinations of Artifact gear are of equal rarity, we agreed upon this already, as such, regardless if a combination is viewed as coveted or vendor trash, they all have the same chance to happen, they are all that proveriable 1 in a million item.
It's value to the player is purely a matter of personal taste and has no bearing on its rarity or chance to exist.
Just like rolling a d20.
All too often we put way too much emphasis on the 20 or the 1 result. With 20 being the most coveted roll desired, and 1 being the least desired.
But it's all just RNG. Any result has the same chance to happen, and we both understand this.
And that was my whole point, the 17 is no more or less rare then the 4, or the 20, or the 1, and thus no result is more or less rare then another, even if one specific result is desired.
In contrast to that, getting The cloak of Flames (As in there is only one of its kind), and when you open the Dragon chest, it is like, I would say, spinning a wheel of fortune, that has a series of loot on it, and 63% of the time you won't get the cloak, which makes getting that cloak, directly a rare drop from that chest.
As it seems we already do agree on this subject, have you thought to wonder why some people are disagreeing with me?
Have a great day.
Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).
....oh dear.
That is not how RNG works.
There is 19 posibble results(19:1) you get something you do not want vs 1 possibility(1:20) of something you want.
Yeah, the chance you get what you want is much lower than a chance you get what you don't want.
I see this is partly my fault, Perhaps I did not explain things well, or maybe it's just been too much blathering, and it got lost in the many previous posts, but, while your math is spot on, you are not taking into account the rarity to be one of the 10 people to kill Nagafen that week.
I wager that is my fault for not saying that again when I opted to correct your point, In your example, you are functioning from a premise that anyone can just go kill Nagafen, perhaps like some instance based, and any group of 10 people could go and kill the Raid Boss every week at reset.
My apologies, allow me to explain, that was not the case in EQ, Nagafen is a single spawn mob for the whole server.
I want to clarify that, and say this again, Only `1 Cloak of Flames will drop roughly once every 3 weeks, across the entire server of thousands of players.
Ergo, just to be in the group that gets to kill Nagafen is highly coveted and rare position to be in, so your premise starts off with the player already winning a lottery of sorts, just being one among one of the 10 people that gets to Kill Nagafen.
So, to help work your math a little better, just because you seem to enjoy the numbers. EQ had 500K subs across 20 servers, so now, What are my chances to get a Cloak of Flames?
To be nice, I am going remove the competitiveness of hardcore raid guilds in EQ, which still exist, and pretty much if you were not in one, you were not going to be Dragon Hunting, so realistically your chances to get a Cloak of Flames start with, joining the Raid Guild, Proving your Worth, Earning your DKP, and then.. MAYBE.. getting the chance to loot the Cloak of Flames. Given across the 20 year history of your whole Server, only 300 of these items will have existed, I wager it's going to be a lot less than your projected.
But I would love to see the numbers if you feel like running them.
Whereas in UO, you are spot on that you can just go out and kill random mobs and pray to RNGesus that you get the combo you want, with no limit on how many times you can roll that dice or how many of said item can exist, so in that regard, I wager your numbers are spot on.
In short you just contradicted yourself in your own post, while telling me I am wrong.
Well at least you did have one good post, so kudos for that.
My point is Rarity is an Aspect of Supply. Ergo, all Artifact Items of the same budget have the same chance to exist, regardless of what was generated. IE: All of them had the same chance to be what they are, regardless if that was what you wanted or not.
It seems my colleagues cannot figure out if they are applying Rarity to Supply or Demand. In case of poor Gdemami , he contradicts himself in his own post, regarding what he thinks validates rarity.