The Most Important Element Missing From Most Modern MMORPGs

Ancient_Exile

The Most Elemental Choice

Is my character good, bad, or indifferent?  Is my character positive, negative, or (somewhat) neutral/independent?

Does my character choose to fight for a higher authority/power/ideal (good or evil), or is my character in it for him/herself?  Is my character more interested in helping others, harming opponents/adversaries, preying on/victimizing the weak/targets of opportunity, or just doing whatever it takes to get ahead or fulfill his/her own ambitions?

Other Important Choices/Questions

1. Who is my character?

2. Where does my character come from?

3. What does my character do?  What is my character interested in doing?

4. How does my character work to accomplish his/her goals?

5. Why does my character do what he/she does?  (What motivates my character?)

We are allowed to choose 3 & 4 in most games.  However, 1, 2, & 5 are largely made for us or unimportant.  Those choices/questions have negligible effects on how we play the game or what we choose to do in the game.  Unless we are one of those weirdo RPers.

In the vast majority of modern MMORPGs we are told that we are adventurers, heroes, or chosen ones.

NPC:  "Greetings, illustrious hero (or heroine)!  You are the chosen one!"

PC:  Huh?  But I don't want to be the chosen one.  I want to choose my own way, forge my own path, decide my own fate. 

NPC:  What?  Too bad, you are the chosen one.  Now shut your mouth, do what I say, and like it....Have fun storming the castle!

NPC:  Well met, Adventurer!

PC:  But wait, I don't want to be an Adventurer.  I just want to perform alchemy experiments in my laboratory.  I want to make potions and poisons and sell them to peeps.

NPC:  The hell you say!  You are an Adventurer!  And you will go on adventures.  Don't you know that you can't make a decent living on Alchemy in (insert name of world/continent/region/city)?  Why, you'll just barely scrape by at best.  No, no, no!  That won't do!  You must go on adventures, risk your life and limb fighting vicious monsters, dangerous criminals, and all sorts of other fearsome opponents who will glory in your death and spit on your grave!  Whether you like it or not!  Now, now, where were we?  Ah, yes...

And that, I believe, is one of the major reasons why many newer MMORPGs just aren't as interesting as some of the older MMORPGs.

Also, we don't have that many interesting opportunities to make important decisions based on a proper evaluation (in our individual opinions) of Risk vs Reward.

Kyleran

Play EVE, pretty much covers all of the bases outlined in the OP, player determines near everything about how they'll make their way through the universe.

They might even try to conquer all of free space...

Ancient_Exile

Kyleran said:

Play EVE, pretty much covers all of the bases outlined in the OP, player determines near everything about how they'll make their way through the universe.

They might even try to conquer all of free space...

But what if I encounter a derelict ship that has been missing for seven years?

Ungood

And here in.. DDO NPC are like "Eh.. Fleshbag, I got a job for you, if you want it"

katzklaw

Ungood said:

And here in.. DDO NPC are like "Eh.. Fleshbag, I got a job for you, if you want it"

but then again, if you take all those jobs, and run all those lowly errands, and work your way up that adventuring ladder... you go into some quests, and the enemy mobs are like "oh wait, is that so-and-so? the adventurer who destroyed the giant robot monster? who broke into an interplanar super high security vault and killed an ancient red dragon inside? who slew that undead giant dude... twice?  nevermind, i don't wanna fight them! i'm outta here!

those moments make ya feel good.... till the next wave of mobs that DIDN'T chicken out kicks your teeth in for you....   

Ancient_Exile

katzklaw said:

Ungood said:

And here in.. DDO NPC are like "Eh.. Fleshbag, I got a job for you, if you want it"

but then again, if you take all those jobs, and run all those lowly errands, and work your way up that adventuring ladder... you go into some quests, and the enemy mobs are like "oh wait, is that so-and-so? the adventurer who destroyed the giant robot monster? who broke into an interplanar super high security vault and killed an ancient red dragon inside? who slew that undead giant dude... twice?  nevermind, i don't wanna fight them! i'm outta here!

those moments make ya feel good.... till the next wave of mobs that DIDN'T chicken out kicks your teeth in for you....   

Will Mobs actually flee from your lightsaber-wielding, mecha-piloting Undead Barbie Ninja-Hair-Stylist in DDO?

Ungood

Ancient_Exile said:

katzklaw said:

Ungood said:

And here in.. DDO NPC are like "Eh.. Fleshbag, I got a job for you, if you want it"

but then again, if you take all those jobs, and run all those lowly errands, and work your way up that adventuring ladder... you go into some quests, and the enemy mobs are like "oh wait, is that so-and-so? the adventurer who destroyed the giant robot monster? who broke into an interplanar super high security vault and killed an ancient red dragon inside? who slew that undead giant dude... twice?  nevermind, i don't wanna fight them! i'm outta here!

those moments make ya feel good.... till the next wave of mobs that DIDN'T chicken out kicks your teeth in for you....   

Will Mobs actually flee from your lightsaber-wielding, mecha-piloting Undead Barbie Ninja-Hair-Stylist in DDO?

Sometimes.. yes.

Dreaming Dark was an Amazing pack.

katzklaw

Ancient_Exile said:

katzklaw said:

Ungood said:

And here in.. DDO NPC are like "Eh.. Fleshbag, I got a job for you, if you want it"

but then again, if you take all those jobs, and run all those lowly errands, and work your way up that adventuring ladder... you go into some quests, and the enemy mobs are like "oh wait, is that so-and-so? the adventurer who destroyed the giant robot monster? who broke into an interplanar super high security vault and killed an ancient red dragon inside? who slew that undead giant dude... twice?  nevermind, i don't wanna fight them! i'm outta here!

those moments make ya feel good.... till the next wave of mobs that DIDN'T chicken out kicks your teeth in for you....   

Will Mobs actually flee from your lightsaber-wielding, mecha-piloting Undead Barbie Ninja-Hair-Stylist in DDO?

i paraphrased this particular scene for the lulz.... start at 4:43 and watch till about 4:50ish (or more if you want i guess)



but yes. your reputation precedes you, and some of the mobs bug out.  

what the various councilors say in this part varies depending on what you've actually accomplished in game. this isn't the only time something like this happens in game, but it's one of the best, and most well known by anyone who's done the pack

(note. this pack was originally "end game" content when level cap was 20. this was a quazi raid... by that i mean it probably could have been a raid, buy they coded it as a standard 6 man dungeon. so, in effect, this is a "mark of recognition of what you've done in your game time" kind of moment. your first time running this actually feels pretty good watching all the mobs going "wait, i know of that guy....."

Ancient_Exile

Ungood said:

Ancient_Exile said:

katzklaw said:

Ungood said:

And here in.. DDO NPC are like "Eh.. Fleshbag, I got a job for you, if you want it"

but then again, if you take all those jobs, and run all those lowly errands, and work your way up that adventuring ladder... you go into some quests, and the enemy mobs are like "oh wait, is that so-and-so? the adventurer who destroyed the giant robot monster? who broke into an interplanar super high security vault and killed an ancient red dragon inside? who slew that undead giant dude... twice?  nevermind, i don't wanna fight them! i'm outta here!

those moments make ya feel good.... till the next wave of mobs that DIDN'T chicken out kicks your teeth in for you....   

Will Mobs actually flee from your lightsaber-wielding, mecha-piloting Undead Barbie Ninja-Hair-Stylist in DDO?

Sometimes.. yes.

Dreaming Dark was an Amazing pack.

Approximately how many times is sometimes aside from the "Amazing pack" known as "Dreaming Dark"?

Ancient_Exile

katzklaw said:

Ancient_Exile said:

katzklaw said:

Ungood said:

And here in.. DDO NPC are like "Eh.. Fleshbag, I got a job for you, if you want it"

but then again, if you take all those jobs, and run all those lowly errands, and work your way up that adventuring ladder... you go into some quests, and the enemy mobs are like "oh wait, is that so-and-so? the adventurer who destroyed the giant robot monster? who broke into an interplanar super high security vault and killed an ancient red dragon inside? who slew that undead giant dude... twice?  nevermind, i don't wanna fight them! i'm outta here!

those moments make ya feel good.... till the next wave of mobs that DIDN'T chicken out kicks your teeth in for you....   

Will Mobs actually flee from your lightsaber-wielding, mecha-piloting Undead Barbie Ninja-Hair-Stylist in DDO?

i paraphrased this particular scene for the lulz.... start at 4:43 and watch till about 4:50ish (or more if you want i guess)



but yes. your reputation precedes you, and some of the mobs bug out.  

what the various councilors say in this part varies depending on what you've actually accomplished in game. this isn't the only time something like this happens in game, but it's one of the best, and most well known by anyone who's done the pack

(note. this pack was originally "end game" content when level cap was 20. this was a quazi raid... by that i mean it probably could have been a raid, buy they coded it as a standard 6 man dungeon. so, in effect, this is a "mark of recognition of what you've done in your game time" kind of moment. your first time running this actually feels pretty good watching all the mobs going "wait, i know of that guy....."

Do NPC women ever flock to your table when you sit down in a tavern?  I'm not even kidding.  This is a serious question.  And can your character actually sit in chairs in DDO taverns? 

Ancient_Exile

DMKano said:

I personally don't care about the backstory or anything about my character.

What's really missing (the OP touched on this) - is the lack of meaningful/impactful choice.

There is no possibility of failure - every player is set on a path that is 100% success as long as they keep playing.

This is a what makes MMOs so dull - you are playing something where no matter how many mistakes you make - you still succeed. The entire gameplay is designed to where you cannot fail period.

This completely removes any kind of sense of risk/reward over time - it's a shit design.

IMO every piece of gear should have pros and cons - you want high AC plate armor, sure - but you lose 30% speed and 10 points of agility. 

Also you cannot swim in plate armor, but you can dive really fast

If there is ever a situation in game where one choice is a clear 100% no brainer - that's a bad game design. Every choice that player has to make from gearing up, to abilities to what NPCs you become friends with - needs to be something that has both pros and cons.

Making friends with one NPC should also mean you make enemies with another - again - choices that have both positive and negative outcomes are good. (similar to faction system in EQ1 but make it impossible to be friendly with all)

Make choices mean something - current design feels like it's designed from a mindset where everything is 100% childproofed - all end gear is just all stats + in everything (zero downsides), it's all a meaningless circle jerk where everyone wins.

Well, if you don't care about your character's background, you can always choose to play a character with permanent Amnesia.

(Note: Bold Emphasis added to DMKano's original post.)

"...Frederick I, was the Holy Roman Emperor from 2 January 1155 until his death 35 years later...Frederick died in 1190 in Asia Minor while leading an army in the Third Crusade...

...Emperor Frederick Barbarossa opted on the local Armenians' advice to follow a shortcut along the Saleph river, meanwhile the army started to traverse the mountain path. On 10 June 1190, he drowned near Silifke Castle in the Saleph river.[89] There are several conflicting accounts of the event:...Another account recorded that Frederick was thrown from his horse while crossing the river, weighed down by his armour, he drowned..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

Sovrath

Ancient_Exile said:

Kyleran said:

Play EVE, pretty much covers all of the bases outlined in the OP, player determines near everything about how they'll make their way through the universe.

They might even try to conquer all of free space...

But what if I encounter a derelict ship that has been missing for seven years?

I"m probably the only person who loves that movie!

Sovrath

DMKano said:

I personally don't care about the backstory or anything about my character.

What's really missing (the OP touched on this) - is the lack of meaningful/impactful choice.

There is no possibility of failure - every player is set on a path that is 100% success as long as they keep playing.

This is a what makes MMOs so dull - you are playing something where no matter how many mistakes you make - you still succeed. The entire gameplay is designed to where you cannot fail period.

This completely removes any kind of sense of risk/reward over time - it's a shit design.

IMO every piece of gear should have pros and cons - you want high AC plate armor, sure - but you lose 30% speed and 10 points of agility. 

Also you cannot swim in plate armor, but you can dive really fast

If there is ever a situation in game where one choice is a clear 100% no brainer - that's a bad game design. Every choice that player has to make from gearing up, to abilities to what NPCs you become friends with - needs to be something that has both pros and cons.

Making friends with one NPC should also mean you make enemies with another - again - choices that have both positive and negative outcomes are good. (similar to faction system in EQ1 but make it impossible to be friendly with all)

Make choices mean something - current design feels like it's designed from a mindset where everything is 100% childproofed - all end gear is just all stats + in everything (zero downsides), it's all a meaningless circle jerk, as there is no real choice.

While I do care about things like backstory and "story" (provided they are done well and integrated well with the game play) I agree.

I had the exact thought some time ago. No matter what, as long as you keep playing you progress. I'd also like to see gear with positives and negatives as well as character builds.

"min/maxing" should also be at the "min." Doesn't ever seem to bother players because the "max" part is so overpowered.

Ancient_Exile

Sovrath said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Kyleran said:

Play EVE, pretty much covers all of the bases outlined in the OP, player determines near everything about how they'll make their way through the universe.

They might even try to conquer all of free space...

But what if I encounter a derelict ship that has been missing for seven years?

I"m probably the only person who loves that movie!

Who knows?  Maybe.  I don't love it, but I thought it was a decent movie.

Ancient_Exile

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

I personally don't care about the backstory or anything about my character.

What's really missing (the OP touched on this) - is the lack of meaningful/impactful choice.

There is no possibility of failure - every player is set on a path that is 100% success as long as they keep playing.

This is a what makes MMOs so dull - you are playing something where no matter how many mistakes you make - you still succeed. The entire gameplay is designed to where you cannot fail period.

This completely removes any kind of sense of risk/reward over time - it's a shit design.

IMO every piece of gear should have pros and cons - you want high AC plate armor, sure - but you lose 30% speed and 10 points of agility. 

Also you cannot swim in plate armor, but you can dive really fast

If there is ever a situation in game where one choice is a clear 100% no brainer - that's a bad game design. Every choice that player has to make from gearing up, to abilities to what NPCs you become friends with - needs to be something that has both pros and cons.

Making friends with one NPC should also mean you make enemies with another - again - choices that have both positive and negative outcomes are good. (similar to faction system in EQ1 but make it impossible to be friendly with all)

Make choices mean something - current design feels like it's designed from a mindset where everything is 100% childproofed - all end gear is just all stats + in everything (zero downsides), it's all a meaningless circle jerk, as there is no real choice.

While I do care about things like backstory and "story" (provided they are done well and integrated well with the game play) I agree.

I had the exact thought some time ago. No matter what, as long as you keep playing you progress. I'd also like to see gear with positives and negatives as well as character builds.

"min/maxing" should also be at the "min." Doesn't ever seem to bother players because the "max" part is so overpowered.

One reason a lot of players may not care about backstory for their characters is because it usually has no effect/is of no consequence in the game whatsoever.

I definitely don't want a storyline that I must be a part of in a MMORPG.  There can be prominent & influential NPCs & Mobs, pivotal events, and other important things that happen in the world, but I don't see any reason why the same things should happen or turn out exactly the same way on every server.  

Sovrath

Ancient_Exile said:

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

I personally don't care about the backstory or anything about my character.

What's really missing (the OP touched on this) - is the lack of meaningful/impactful choice.

There is no possibility of failure - every player is set on a path that is 100% success as long as they keep playing.

This is a what makes MMOs so dull - you are playing something where no matter how many mistakes you make - you still succeed. The entire gameplay is designed to where you cannot fail period.

This completely removes any kind of sense of risk/reward over time - it's a shit design.

IMO every piece of gear should have pros and cons - you want high AC plate armor, sure - but you lose 30% speed and 10 points of agility. 

Also you cannot swim in plate armor, but you can dive really fast

If there is ever a situation in game where one choice is a clear 100% no brainer - that's a bad game design. Every choice that player has to make from gearing up, to abilities to what NPCs you become friends with - needs to be something that has both pros and cons.

Making friends with one NPC should also mean you make enemies with another - again - choices that have both positive and negative outcomes are good. (similar to faction system in EQ1 but make it impossible to be friendly with all)

Make choices mean something - current design feels like it's designed from a mindset where everything is 100% childproofed - all end gear is just all stats + in everything (zero downsides), it's all a meaningless circle jerk, as there is no real choice.

While I do care about things like backstory and "story" (provided they are done well and integrated well with the game play) I agree.

I had the exact thought some time ago. No matter what, as long as you keep playing you progress. I'd also like to see gear with positives and negatives as well as character builds.

"min/maxing" should also be at the "min." Doesn't ever seem to bother players because the "max" part is so overpowered.

One reason a lot of players may not care about backstory for their characters is because it usually has no effect/is of no consequence in the game whatsoever.

I definitely don't want a storyline that I must be a part of in a MMORPG.  There can be prominent & influential NPCs & Mobs, pivotal events, and other important things that happen in the world, but I don't see any reason why the same things should happen or turn out exactly the same way on every server.  

So then what if your backstory did have consequence? I'm not saying every game has to have this but I'm ok with some games having it.

Ancient_Exile

Sovrath said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

I personally don't care about the backstory or anything about my character.

What's really missing (the OP touched on this) - is the lack of meaningful/impactful choice.

There is no possibility of failure - every player is set on a path that is 100% success as long as they keep playing.

This is a what makes MMOs so dull - you are playing something where no matter how many mistakes you make - you still succeed. The entire gameplay is designed to where you cannot fail period.

This completely removes any kind of sense of risk/reward over time - it's a shit design.

IMO every piece of gear should have pros and cons - you want high AC plate armor, sure - but you lose 30% speed and 10 points of agility. 

Also you cannot swim in plate armor, but you can dive really fast

If there is ever a situation in game where one choice is a clear 100% no brainer - that's a bad game design. Every choice that player has to make from gearing up, to abilities to what NPCs you become friends with - needs to be something that has both pros and cons.

Making friends with one NPC should also mean you make enemies with another - again - choices that have both positive and negative outcomes are good. (similar to faction system in EQ1 but make it impossible to be friendly with all)

Make choices mean something - current design feels like it's designed from a mindset where everything is 100% childproofed - all end gear is just all stats + in everything (zero downsides), it's all a meaningless circle jerk, as there is no real choice.

While I do care about things like backstory and "story" (provided they are done well and integrated well with the game play) I agree.

I had the exact thought some time ago. No matter what, as long as you keep playing you progress. I'd also like to see gear with positives and negatives as well as character builds.

"min/maxing" should also be at the "min." Doesn't ever seem to bother players because the "max" part is so overpowered.

One reason a lot of players may not care about backstory for their characters is because it usually has no effect/is of no consequence in the game whatsoever.

I definitely don't want a storyline that I must be a part of in a MMORPG.  There can be prominent & influential NPCs & Mobs, pivotal events, and other important things that happen in the world, but I don't see any reason why the same things should happen or turn out exactly the same way on every server.  

So then what if your backstory did have consequence? I'm not saying every game has to have this but I'm ok with some games having it.

My character could get treated differently by certain NPCs depending on where he is from.  My character might be from a wealthier family and therefore start off with more money and better equipment than other player characters.  (But that option wouldn't be open to everyone.  Perhaps we could get some options during Character Creation which were generated by RNG.  And no way to re-roll without deleting the character entirely.)  Or my character might be from a poorer family and start off with less money and worse equipment.  Maybe my character has a fear of certain creatures, giving him a -1 or more to hit that creature.  And/or my character has a deep hatred of a certain monster race, giving him a +1 or more to hit that monster.  All kinds of things that could be done.

Ungood

LOL.. Amnesia is how DDO sets the stage.

You could imagine as much a backstory as you want for your character, but the game starts with you waking up on a shore from a wrecked ship, some random level 1 nobody, no gear, and no idea why you were on the ship to start with. 

And that theme gets played upon when you get Veteran status, or use Lesser hearts.

Sovrath

Ancient_Exile said:

Sovrath said:

So then what if your backstory did have consequence? I'm not saying every game has to have this but I'm ok with some games having it.

My character could get treated differently by certain NPCs depending on where he is from.  My character might be from a wealthier family and therefore start off with more money and better equipment than other player characters.  (But that option wouldn't be open to everyone.  Perhaps we could get some options during Character Creation which were generated by RNG.  And no way to re-roll without deleting the character entirely.)  Or my character might be from a poorer family and start off with less money and worse equipment.  Maybe my character has a fear of certain creatures, giving him a -1 or more to hit that creature.  And/or my character has a deep hatred of a certain monster race, giving him a +1 or more to hit that monster.  All kinds of things that could be done.

Sorry you misunderstand. But perhaps I could have said it better.

I'm agreeing with what you said. What I meant to respond was "ok then let's have your character HAVE consequences"

Or "so let's have your character backstory have consequences."

Ancient_Exile

Ungood said:

LOL.. Amnesia is how DDO sets the stage.

You could imagine as much a backstory as you want for your character, but the game starts with you waking up on a shore from a wrecked ship, some random level 1 nobody, no gear, and no idea why you were on the ship to start with. 

And that theme gets played upon when you get Veteran status, or use Lesser hearts.

EQ2 - Shipwrecked on Erollis Isle in the Frostfang Sea (though it's true you can also start in Greater Feydark if you're playing a good-aligned character.  Evil-aligned characters start in Darklight Wood or Timorous Deep.  Back in 2014 anyway.)

Neverwinter - Shipwrecked

Elder Scrolls Online - Shipwrecked

Ancient_Exile

Sovrath said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Sovrath said:

So then what if your backstory did have consequence? I'm not saying every game has to have this but I'm ok with some games having it.

My character could get treated differently by certain NPCs depending on where he is from.  My character might be from a wealthier family and therefore start off with more money and better equipment than other player characters.  (But that option wouldn't be open to everyone.  Perhaps we could get some options during Character Creation which were generated by RNG.  And no way to re-roll without deleting the character entirely.)  Or my character might be from a poorer family and start off with less money and worse equipment.  Maybe my character has a fear of certain creatures, giving him a -1 or more to hit that creature.  And/or my character has a deep hatred of a certain monster race, giving him a +1 or more to hit that monster.  All kinds of things that could be done.

Sorry you misunderstand. But perhaps I could have said it better.

I'm agreeing with what you said. What I meant to respond was "ok then let's have your character HAVE consequences"

Or "so let's have your character backstory have consequences."

I thought you were basically agreeing with me, but I felt I should provide some examples.  Flesh the idea out a bit.

ChildoftheShadows

Ancient_Exile said:

Ungood said:

LOL.. Amnesia is how DDO sets the stage.

You could imagine as much a backstory as you want for your character, but the game starts with you waking up on a shore from a wrecked ship, some random level 1 nobody, no gear, and no idea why you were on the ship to start with. 

And that theme gets played upon when you get Veteran status, or use Lesser hearts.

EQ2 - Shipwrecked on Erollis Isle in the Frostfang Sea (though it's true you can also start in Greater Feydark if you're playing a good-aligned character.  Evil-aligned characters start in Darklight Wood or Timorous Deep.  Back in 2014 anyway.)

Neverwinter - Shipwrecked

Elder Scrolls Online - Shipwrecked

Age of Conan

Theocritus

Kyleran said:

Play EVE, pretty much covers all of the bases outlined in the OP, player determines near everything about how they'll make their way through the universe.

They might even try to conquer all of free space...

I'm sorry but I at least need a relateable avatar....Being in a space ship doesn't give me any kind of connection whatsoever.

Theocritus

"There is no possibility of failure - every player is set on a path that is 100% success as long as they keep playing."

Right it feels as if you are just going through the motions. The early MMOs we were just kind of another person in the universe, then somewhere along the way we became "heroes" that were destined to save the universe, and that is when the genre started to decline.

Ancient_Exile

ChildoftheShadows said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Ungood said:

LOL.. Amnesia is how DDO sets the stage.

You could imagine as much a backstory as you want for your character, but the game starts with you waking up on a shore from a wrecked ship, some random level 1 nobody, no gear, and no idea why you were on the ship to start with. 

And that theme gets played upon when you get Veteran status, or use Lesser hearts.

EQ2 - Shipwrecked on Erollis Isle in the Frostfang Sea (though it's true you can also start in Greater Feydark if you're playing a good-aligned character.  Evil-aligned characters start in Darklight Wood or Timorous Deep.  Back in 2014 anyway.)

Neverwinter - Shipwrecked

Elder Scrolls Online - Shipwrecked

Age of Conan

I only tried it once briefly, so I don't really remember.  Shipwrecked also, eh?

Sovrath

Ancient_Exile said:

I only tried it once briefly, so I don't really remember.  Shipwrecked also, eh?

Absolutely shipwrecked.

Also, come to think of it, Gods and Heroes was also a shipwreck.


game "setup" and literally.