Is it just me or has the MMO genre shifted towards Action MMOs and Full Loot FFA PvP Sandboxes?

MMOExposed

I noticed MMO developers of new MMOs seem to be doing a lot more focus on Action Combat, but not just that. Sandbox PvP FFA FL MMOs seem to be the new trend. MMOs take about 5 years on avg to make, so this trend had to be in the works for the last 5 years now.            

seem crazy a decade ago. But here we are. Whats funny is that Amazon's New World MMO backed out the original plan for going the Sandbox FFA FL PvP path due to complaints of gang fest KoS PvP griefing.               

But because if this new wave trend of Sandbox PvP MMOs coming out, I wonder if this will lead to another MMO Depression period if these new MMOs flop? Thats a concern. 

mageling

Food for thought yeah... have also noticed that PvP seems to be a major selling point in most new games coming out - which of course saves me some cash, as I will not play with enforced PvP gaming in a MMO.

kitarad

Project Gorgon has like 2 developers if I'm not mistaken. What they have achieved is definitely noteworthy. They cannot compete with the other games for sure but they have a steady player base. Calling them a failure is very unkind.

Iselin

Action combat, yes definitely and it's a good thing.

Full loot PvP sandbox? Not in the least.

Scot

When you want to appeal to a non-MMO player base like solo gamers and make soloing the default playstyle of the MMO genre in what is supposed to be a massively multiplayer game, where do you go from there? You bring in everything else players not from a MMO background expect and one for those things is action combat.

Wizardry

The top selling mmorpg doesn't even have housing,so you do the math.

I accepted the mmorpg design for several years because devs deserve the chance to evolve and make mmorpg's better over time,it doesn't just happen in a few years.
However what i have been seeing is LESS of an mmorpg design and tons of corner cutting.
90% of these mmorpg designs don't even make sense,just full of "stuff to do"and very few realistic features that tell us we have a character living in a world.

 In how many mmorpg's does your character die if you don't eat or drink?How many have housing,players don't live anywhere?Weather/climate that matters?How many mmorpg's can you build in,like we are living beings in a world but nobody knows how to build anything?
How many mmorpg's have eco systems...none?

Yeah idk what these devs are making but they are not making mmorpg's,they are making treadmills and markers over npc heads and instance gaming and goofy stuff like jump maps,automatic warping to support dungeon finders.Somersaults because yeah,i haven't done a somersault since i was like 6 years old in school but somehow it has become a staple of combat...sigh.

I gave up on mmorpg's for now,i'd  much rather play a survival game that also happens to look way better than mmorpg's do.Survival games offer a much better role playing experience than mmorpg's do.Where we stand right now is that survival games are headed i nthe right driection but now we need to afford those devs the time to advance the systems and bring us closer to the mmorpg i expected years ago from the initial mmorpg designers.

Amathe

There is a shortage of WoW/Everquest style mmorpgs. The few being made are indy games. 

Theocritus

mageling said:

Food for thought yeah... have also noticed that PvP seems to be a major selling point in most new games coming out - which of course saves me some cash, as I will not play with enforced PvP gaming in a MMO.

It's funny the PVPers think there are hardly any PVP games, and the PVEers think there are hardly any PVE games....Probably because everything ends up being some weak combo  between the two.

bcbully

PvP can’t make these kids run a scripted dungeon 30 tines

cameltosis

The switch to action combat was really hammered home by Wildstar, ESO and their Asian counterparts (BDO etc). So, it's not a new trend, it's a 6 year old trend.

I personally think it sucks.

I can understand why the change was made: internet speeds and PC power finally made it a viable way to design an mmo, so it's no surprise some tried it. It's continued popularity confuses me; action combat works fine for short term games, but long term the lack of depth becomes harmful.

PvP FFA sandboxes....yeh, can't say that's a trend I've noticed. We get the odd game here and there, and they mostly stay small and niche....or just fail. Thats fine, theres clearly a market for it, and clearly devs who enjoy making the games.

The only thing I'd say is that PvP is typically the only actual massively multiplayer feature in an MMO. Devs don't tend to design anything that requires more than about 20 people, maybe 40. PvP involving hundreds of players is typically the only feature that actually makes use of the genres' unique selling point. So, I can understand the desire to focus on PvP, and some of my best memories from mmos are in a pvp setting. But, most devs get it wrong and repeat the same mistakes of the past (like making it ffa, or full loot, or built on vertical progression, or only having 2 factions).

AlBQuirky

Gorwe said:

What's bad about Action (MMO)RPGs? When they're done properly(Nioh, Souls, Blade + Soul etc), they're nothing short of awesome!

Interestingly enough, I've had no desire to play any of those games. Saves me money, so I'm not complaining

AlBQuirky

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

mageling said:

Food for thought yeah... have also noticed that PvP seems to be a major selling point in most new games coming out - which of course saves me some cash, as I will not play with enforced PvP gaming in a MMO.

It's funny the PVPers think there are hardly any PVP games, and the PVEers think there are hardly any PVE games....Probably because everything ends up being some weak combo  between the two.

There are zero new high profile modern MMOs for either playstyle (PVE, PVP, PVX). After BDO and E:D, all titles coming out that had positive reception by the community were niche or retro-graphics indie titles (i.e. Project Gorgon, One Hour One Life for PVE, Albion Online, Foxhole for PVP).

Most MMO players, regardless of playstyle preference are just thirsty for a modern high production value MMO. And to get that, they conveniently present only their side of the story in the public fora

Well... Yeah

nate1980

Gorwe said:

What's bad about Action (MMO)RPGs? When they're done properly(Nioh, Souls, Blade + Soul etc), they're nothing short of awesome!

What's bad about it are a few things:

1. It's a myth that games are just for children and young adults. The more actions per/min (APM) a person has to perform, the more our hands hurt for older folks.
2. MMO's are repetitive games that can take hours to accomplish the same level of progress that you feel you've achieved in a single-player game. Once again, high APM combat systems after hours of play can impact even younger players joints and ligaments in their hands.
3. MMO's are more complex than SPG's. Having to click your mouse to attack and move to dodge swings etc (Souls) while also having to input a sequence of commands to execute an ability, or to hit abilities traditional style while doing the above isn't great in a MMO raid and/or complicated 5 mans.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a Dark Souls MMORPG sharing the same combat, but what MMO's that have action combat make you do is spam action combat stuff and tab target combat stuff at the same time. That's uncomfortable and needlessly complicated for an old clicker/keyboard turner like myself.

Adamantine

> Action MMOs and Full Loot FFA PvP Sandboxes

Not interested in either, so no idea.

cheyane

Oddly enough I like to play if I am able and in Phantasy Star Online 2 I found a class I could play despite having abysmal action combat reflexes. It can be fun although other mechanics turned me off in the end.

Full loot FFA lol no thanks. Instant drop of interest.

ChildoftheShadows

Theocritus said:

mageling said:

Food for thought yeah... have also noticed that PvP seems to be a major selling point in most new games coming out - which of course saves me some cash, as I will not play with enforced PvP gaming in a MMO.

It's funny the PVPers think there are hardly any PVP games, and the PVEers think there are hardly any PVE games....Probably because everything ends up being some weak combo  between the two.

Or they just don't like the games so they're not counted. You know how it works, if you don't like a game it's "dead".

IsilithTehroth

Because pvp is a type of conent that never really stagnants, its why most games have it; that and pvers blow through their content and move on to the next game. That being said there are still tons of PVE mmorpgs and co-op games out there, but since survival games and battle royales became popular games like it are being churned out because its easy, cheaper made games.

cheyane

tzervo said:

nate1980 said:

 What's bad about it are a few things:

1. It's a myth that games are just for children and young adults. The more actions per/min (APM) a person has to perform, the more our hands hurt for older folks.
2. MMO's are repetitive games that can take hours to accomplish the same level of progress that you feel you've achieved in a single-player game. Once again, high APM combat systems after hours of play can impact even younger players joints and ligaments in their hands.
3. MMO's are more complex than SPG's. Having to click your mouse to attack and move to dodge swings etc (Souls) while also having to input a sequence of commands to execute an ability, or to hit abilities traditional style while doing the above isn't great in a MMO raid and/or complicated 5 mans.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a Dark Souls MMORPG sharing the same combat, but what MMO's that have action combat make you do is spam action combat stuff and tab target combat stuff at the same time. That's uncomfortable and needlessly complicated for an old clicker/keyboard turner like myself.

I don't think that action combat systems are always or have to be more shallow or fast-paced than tab targeting.

Haven't played Dark Souls, but I played MHW and from what I hear from those that played both the combat system is similar. It is action combat and it did not feel more fast paced or more shallow than tab targeting systems. And I say that as a middle-aged gamer with mediocre reflexes. MHW also proves that action combat can fit quite well in more complicated group fights.

It is not at all about how slow or fast paced it is.

I have played Monster Hunter World. I find after 40 minutes I am exhausted and have a headache from turning around and trying to hit things. Tab target never does that to me. It is how you react to action combat, I noticed this while playing Phantasy Star Online 2. The state of readiness to react and jump and run and avoid is nowhere what a tab target games is at. Your whole mind and body reacts to a state that is completely different from a tab target that is based on dice roles to one where you have to actively move. Even if it isn't based on dice roles the fact that you have to manually aim is already a  big problem for some players.

Each person has a different threshold of what they can manage. What you may find easy may be impossible for me and quite honestly you're not in my position to know what it is like.

It completely annoys me when people advice me to try something they think is easy from their point of view because they don't actually suffer from slow reflexes. They think they are slow but in fact are far better than I am. You will never appreciate what another person is suffering unless you have the same handicap to reflexes and it isn't something you can reason away.

Plus after awhile my hand hurts and that is an added problem many people never have to deal with.

Then there are those that say 'oh you are not trying enough' or 'are not practicing' and that is why you cannot do it. I am trying hard and I have spent hours trying but I cannot achieve any success and that seems to be something some find impossible to understand because they are gauging things from their own capabilities and it is unfathomable to them why you would find it hard.

That is why before I buy a game I try to ask how the game plays and watch videos to see if I can handle it or find a class that I might be able to play that will allow me to play an action game. It isn't that cut and dry as fast or slow paced. I can handle fast paced games with ease if I am not in the thick of the fight like a summoner fighting and the pet is actually fighting and I am far away commanding it's moves.

I can also hit buttons on my mouse and heal and cast in games where I am not also running for my life very quickly and have achieved quite good grades from other players that have praised my quick reflexes in healing them.

I am very leery of games that tout action combat because of this.

ShaniaReborn

I want to get my exercise at the gym or outside.  Sure, action combat sounds nice but all it is doing is ruining your wrists and once you get carpul tunnel, you are screwed for life.  I vote no to action combat.

Arglebargle

nate1980 said:

Gorwe said:

What's bad about Action (MMO)RPGs? When they're done properly(Nioh, Souls, Blade + Soul etc), they're nothing short of awesome!

What's bad about it are a few things:

1. It's a myth that games are just for children and young adults. The more actions per/min (APM) a person has to perform, the more our hands hurt for older folks.
2. MMO's are repetitive games that can take hours to accomplish the same level of progress that you feel you've achieved in a single-player game. Once again, high APM combat systems after hours of play can impact even younger players joints and ligaments in their hands.
3. MMO's are more complex than SPG's. Having to click your mouse to attack and move to dodge swings etc (Souls) while also having to input a sequence of commands to execute an ability, or to hit abilities traditional style while doing the above isn't great in a MMO raid and/or complicated 5 mans.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a Dark Souls MMORPG sharing the same combat, but what MMO's that have action combat make you do is spam action combat stuff and tab target combat stuff at the same time. That's uncomfortable and needlessly complicated for an old clicker/keyboard turner like myself.

I like to play RPGs, where the character's abilities are what's more important, not my personal reflexes.  

Modern action style games are less attractive due to that.  Though that doesn't slow down a lot of other players....

cheyane

tzervo said:

cheyane said:

 It is at all about how slow or fast paced it is.

I have played Monster Hunter World. I find after 40 minutes I am exhausted and have a headache from turning around and trying to hit things. Tab target never does that to me. It is how you react to action combat, I noticed this while playing Phantasy Star Online 2. The state of readiness to react and jump and run and avoid is nowhere what a tab target games is at. Your whole mind and body reacts to a state that is completely different from a tab target that is based on dice roles to one where you have to actively move. Even if it isn't based on dice roles the fact that you have to manually aim is already a  big problem for some players.

Each person has a different threshold of what they can manage. What you may find easy may be impossible for me and quite honestly you're not in my position to know what it is like.

It completely annoys me when people advice me to try something they think is easy from their point of view because they don't actually suffer from slow reflexes. They think they are slow but in fact are far better than I am. You will never appreciate what another person is suffering unless you have the same handicap to reflexes and it isn't something you can reason away.

Plus after awhile my hand hurts and that is an added problem many people never have to deal with.

Then there are those that say 'oh you are not trying enough' or 'are not practicing' and that is why you cannot do it. I am trying hard and I have spent hours trying but I cannot achieve any success and that seems to be something some find impossible to understand because they are gauging things from their own capabilities and it is unfathomable to them why you would find it hard.

I just gave a different perspective and opinion, no need to feel aggravated. I just did not personally feel a difference in pace or effort between MHW and WoW for example, whereas I did feel the difference between them and BDO (which is noticeably faster).

It is also important to distinguish between different playstyles within the same game. In MHW, playing hammer, greatsword or hunting horn is much slower than other weapons for example, and more about timing and knowledge of the monster/fight than speed or reflexes.

Another example from a (mostly) tab targetting system, GW2. I could never mechanically manage Elementalist or Engineer (too fast, at least for me, too many key presses which I kept fumbling) but there are professions in the game that cater for a slower pace.

Sometimes it is just a matter of experimenting with different styles that the game offers.

Sorry if I sounded aggravated and I probably did rant on a bit. Lately too many people have been telling me to try harder and that is entirely my fault since I was attempting things outside my comfort zone. However if you don't try sometimes you may never find what you can like and have surprisingly pleasant experiences.

Mylan12

MMOExposed said:

I noticed MMO developers of new MMOs seem to be doing a lot more focus on Action Combat, but not just that. Sandbox PvP FFA FL MMOs seem to be the new trend. MMOs take about 5 years on avg to make, so this trend had to be in the works for the last 5 years now.            

seem crazy a decade ago. But here we are. Whats funny is that Amazon's New World MMO backed out the original plan for going the Sandbox FFA FL PvP path due to complaints of gang fest KoS PvP griefing.               

But because if this new wave trend of Sandbox PvP MMOs coming out, I wonder if this will lead to another MMO Depression period if these new MMOs flop? Thats a concern. 

I think some of this is because its easier and cheaper to make a Sandbox PvP game than a more complicated content wise PVE game.

Foreverdream

wait someone link me the ffa pvp games OP talking about. 

been waiting for the next darkfall type game but nothing.

new world was hope but pve karens ruined it again

skeaser

Y'all seem to be forgetting FFXIV which is a tab-target "traditional" MMO combined with more finger twisting, high-paced action than GW2 or ESO.

MMOExposed

Foreverdream said:

wait someone link me the ffa pvp games OP talking about. 

been waiting for the next darkfall type game but nothing.

new world was hope but pve karens ruined it again

https://www.mortalonline2.com/

bcbully

Mylan12 said:

MMOExposed said:

I noticed MMO developers of new MMOs seem to be doing a lot more focus on Action Combat, but not just that. Sandbox PvP FFA FL MMOs seem to be the new trend. MMOs take about 5 years on avg to make, so this trend had to be in the works for the last 5 years now.            

seem crazy a decade ago. But here we are. Whats funny is that Amazon's New World MMO backed out the original plan for going the Sandbox FFA FL PvP path due to complaints of gang fest KoS PvP griefing.               

But because if this new wave trend of Sandbox PvP MMOs coming out, I wonder if this will lead to another MMO Depression period if these new MMOs flop? Thats a concern. 

I think some of this is because its easier and cheaper to make a Sandbox PvP game than a more complicated content wise PVE game.

Cheaper but by new means easier. Design me a system we’re the economy, territory, the land, players and player made culture form a unique harmony.