The other side of the cash shop, VR dev team has started asking the fans questions like. How would you feel about cosmetic pets? Why ask a question like this?
I think they want to test exactly how far the branch will bend before it breaks. Pretty good strategy, actually.
I'm not a never say never person when it comes to other people or organizations. So I wouldn't be surprised if any game launched with the statement that there wouldn't be a cash shop and then a few years in we get the heart felt update from the head of the company that they tried to keep it out of the game but in the end they can't go on without other channels of funding.
However, for me, I just take it as it comes. I don't care about cash shops if they don't affect me. If they make someone more powerful in a pve game, I really don't care. In a pvp game that's a different story.
Only way a cash shop would upset me if it was like BDO cash shop or one of them P2W deals. I think anything like this can balance value and fairness. As long as they think of how the cash shop will affect the game. VR has done a good job of that with all their systems so far.
This game is going to cater to a niche gamer audience, they know it and the backers know it... no problem with that.
I think to continue to develop meaningful content (plus a profit) once the game launches... monthly subs just won't be enough. Cash shop for minor things and cosmetics, probably a smart move.
This game is going to cater to a niche gamer audience, they know it and the backers know it... no problem with that.
I think to continue to develop meaningful content (plus a profit) once the game launches... monthly subs just won't be enough. Cash shop for minor things and cosmetics, probably a smart move.
But even cosmetic items goes against their philosophy. Every item in game will have unique looks. So no same skins for multiple items, like say WoW does. They want players to know where you've been (or ask where you got that item) just by looking at you. It's all part of there plan for character and class identity.
This game is going to cater to a niche gamer audience, they know it and the backers know it... no problem with that.
I think to continue to develop meaningful content (plus a profit) once the game launches... monthly subs just won't be enough. Cash shop for minor things and cosmetics, probably a smart move.
But even cosmetic items goes against their philosophy. Every item in game will have unique looks. So no same skins for multiple items, like say WoW does. They want players to know where you've been (or ask where you got that item) just by looking at you. It's all part of there plan for character and class identity.
Ah, didnt realize that, nice post. Maybe just sell minor stuff then that help a bit but aren't p2w.
The other side of the cash shop, VR dev team has started asking the fans questions like. How would you feel about cosmetic pets? Why ask a question like this?
I think they want to test exactly how far the branch will bend before it breaks. Pretty good strategy, actually.
I'm not a never say never person when it comes to other people or organizations. So I wouldn't be surprised if any game launched with the statement that there wouldn't be a cash shop and then a few years in we get the heart felt update from the head of the company that they tried to keep it out of the game but in the end they can't go on without other channels of funding.
However, for me, I just take it as it comes. I don't care about cash shops if they don't affect me. If they make someone more powerful in a pve game, I really don't care. In a pvp game that's a different story.
I agree. This promise/policy will be subject to change, probably sooner than most people want. MMORPGs are expensive to make. The people funding this project will want a return on their investment. That's probably going to require alternative revenue sources, if the population doesn't support the investors' concerns.
I just get upset when people start quoting something a developer said on a website, forum, tweet, discords, etc. as a permanent thing. I don't want to see anyone get hurt. Things can change, and will. Setting expectations because of a promise will cause major disappointment when things change. It does nobody any good for Pantheon (or any new game) to end up with the same status as the current EQ1, just hanging on for dear life and a majority of the early adopters moved on and hating the company because of decisions made.
There's precious little chance for a business coming back once the customer base turns sour.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
This game is going to cater to a niche gamer audience, they know it and the backers know it... no problem with that.
Yah, it's going to be a very niche' game, but as long as the developers understand that, and embrace that, everything will go smooth.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The other side of the cash shop, VR dev team has started asking the fans questions like. How would you feel about cosmetic pets? Why ask a question like this?
Don't look to far into kilsins "Community" questions. He has stated multiple times that he comes up with those questions to keep the community active/involved.
Just because kilsin comes up with a question doesn't mean the topic of those questions are being considered by VR. He has made that very well known over the years if you have been following closely.
For example, you bring up cosmetic pets. Do you not remember the shitstorm that was the long pet thread in... maybe... 2016? 15?... that ended up being closed and Brad got frustrated saying people were misinterpreting what he was saying and back tracked and the community was up in arms over it for a week or so? It's kind of a well known thread... I guarantee they don't want to go there again lol.
The cold gear or climbing isn't anything too hard to understand, just like back in EQ1, you had to farm keys for places, it was up to the individual to make sure they did it. If having cold gear and climbing at 'x' is too hard for a person to understand, you probably do not want to group/raid with that person in that zone. If they are new or something, that is one thing, but if they are told what they need, what they need to do it, and then still show up like they did it, even after probably 5-6 reminders....Well... People have needed keys, faction, gear, skills to do things, it is not a foreign concept for a mmorpg. If you are in a guild, people usually will group up and help each other out, I have never been in a guild that I thought was a quality guild that didn't. It is late, so I put that qualifier in, even though I honestly can't think of a bad one that I was in that didn't do it either atm.
I don't know why people are even arguing about game details like perception, climbing, weather or even the cash shop (at this point). Those are mostly details that will rise or fall based on the game as a whole IMO.
How interesting is the game world and how big is it? How are the quests? How are the classes? How is the gameplay/combat? How fluid are the animations/character controls? If the core elements of the game are good those other things can add more depth to the game if they are also good but if the core elements are not good it doesn't matter if you have to wear clothes when it's cold or the perception system is a neat feature because the game will suck.
They also don't matter if the game never releases and that's my only real question at this point..is this really going to release or is it just a painfully drawn out pipe dream that is sadly selling pledges as it slowly fails to materialize?
Considering we have so little to go on about the greater game world and we are 6 years into it..all these little details seem almost irrelevant to me.
I never played EQ2 when it came out, the zones made me think of EQ1, which I played since launch, so didn't feel as 'new'. People are on there, and they can't wait for Pantheon, and the EQ1 servers still have a good population for a game of it's age. I think more people are going to be playing Pantheon than many think.
I never played EQ2 when it came out, the zones made me think of EQ1, which I played since launch, so didn't feel as 'new'. People are on there, and they can't wait for Pantheon, and the EQ1 servers still have a good population for a game of it's age. I think more people are going to be playing Pantheon than many think.
It's somewhat of a bold assumption at this point to believe anyone might get to play the finished game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The question is will those players stick around? EQ of the last 15 or 18 years is a completely different game than when it was popular.
If pantheon ends up like EQ of the last 15ish years it will be just like 1000 other games out there today but it wont have the same nostalgia factor to keep players around.
If it is challenging with harsh penalties for failure (which they seem to be shying away from the last year or 2) how many people will stick around for the long run? It is a bit of a catch 22.
In the end, the only way I see Pantheon lasting is if it separates itself from other mmos by being a game that is harsh and difficult. Even then it will have to survive on a, somewhat, niche player base when compared to the larger games in the industry.
It's kind of like the comparison people make between fortnite and pubg. Fortnite being wow....pantheon has a chance to be pubg if it doesn't muddy the waters and make itself to easy. I think this whole "2 hour play session" thing they have been hanging their hat on is doing themselves a disservice and may end up screwing themselves in the long run.
If there arent harsh penalties for failure and bad players can be successful in Pantheon I dont see it lasting. It Will just be another one of the masses that players try and move on.
If on the one hand you think cash shops are the debil and ruin games, and you also think they are inevitable because "bean counters" then you are in a no win position. You need to lighten up thats my advice.
If on the one hand you think cash shops are the debil and ruin games, and you also think they are inevitable because "bean counters" then you are in a no win position. You need to lighten up thats my advice.
Unsure if that was directed at me? But you didnt specify and replied after my post.
If you believe what VR has told us cash shops are not inevitable. They are not even a possibility.
The problem comes if they say things that end up being false. It is much larger than a specific game system like cash shops. It is more about whether players trust what they are being told and whether they will stick with that company long term through the highs and the lows. Not every expansion or addition can be perfect or even good. Are players devoted to the company, not only because of the game, but because the company is sincere and the players consider them to be dependable? Does the company present themselves in a way that makes the community want to stick around for the long run? Even when they produce what might be considered bad content? Through thick and thin? Or do the players feel distrust because of dishonesty and bail at the first sign of a slip up in development because they don't have faith in the team? Vr can still earn peoples trust but they have to start being much more honest and up front with the community imho. It is slipping and the game isn't anywhere close to release. It would go a long way in my book if they openly addressed many of the difficult questions about the team and development that have happened over the last 6 years. Admit their faults and earn the respect of the community that has been slowly diminishing.
If on the one hand you think cash shops are the debil and ruin games, and you also think they are inevitable because "bean counters" then you are in a no win position. You need to lighten up thats my advice.
Unsure if that was directed at me? But you didnt specify and replied after my post.
Wasnt to you. Not going to look it up but it seems to me someone was saying they would never play a game that had pay to win cash shops, and yet when told they arent going to be anything but cosmetic they replied that the financial way of the world says they will be.
If on the one hand you think cash shops are the debil and ruin games, and you also think they are inevitable because "bean counters" then you are in a no win position. You need to lighten up thats my advice.
Unsure if that was directed at me? But you didnt specify and replied after my post.
Wasnt to you. Not going to look it up but it seems to me someone was saying they would never play a game that had pay to win cash shops, and yet when told they arent going to be anything but cosmetic they replied that the financial way of the world says they will be.
This topic is kinda of a Moot point. Devs are firm they will make it old school. Box price + Sub. I hope they do make it that way. Only thing to argue is if they can make it that way. Every MMO thats doing well, has some form of a cash shop. Pay to win or fluffy cosmetics, there is some type of cash shop no matter their payment model. People with deep pockets can help fund a lot of content for a game.
If on the one hand you think cash shops are the debil and ruin games, and you also think they are inevitable because "bean counters" then you are in a no win position. You need to lighten up thats my advice.
Unsure if that was directed at me? But you didnt specify and replied after my post.
Wasnt to you. Not going to look it up but it seems to me someone was saying they would never play a game that had pay to win cash shops, and yet when told they arent going to be anything but cosmetic they replied that the financial way of the world says they will be.
This topic is kinda of a Moot point. Devs are firm they will make it old school. Box price + Sub. I hope they do make it that way. Only thing to argue is if they can make it that way. Every MMO thats doing well, has some form of a cash shop. Pay to win or fluffy cosmetics, there is some type of cash shop no matter their payment model. People with deep pockets can help fund a lot of content for a game.
They can promise it will launch with the box price + sub model, but hopefully they didn't promise never to change it if needs of the business require them to do so in the future if the initial plan isn't successful.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If on the one hand you think cash shops are the debil and ruin games, and you also think they are inevitable because "bean counters" then you are in a no win position. You need to lighten up thats my advice.
Unsure if that was directed at me? But you didnt specify and replied after my post.
Wasnt to you. Not going to look it up but it seems to me someone was saying they would never play a game that had pay to win cash shops, and yet when told they arent going to be anything but cosmetic they replied that the financial way of the world says they will be.
This topic is kinda of a Moot point. Devs are firm they will make it old school. Box price + Sub. I hope they do make it that way. Only thing to argue is if they can make it that way. Every MMO thats doing well, has some form of a cash shop. Pay to win or fluffy cosmetics, there is some type of cash shop no matter their payment model. People with deep pockets can help fund a lot of content for a game.
They can promise it will launch with the box price + sub model, but hopefully they didn't promise never to change it if needs of the business require them to do so in the future if the initial plan isn't successful.
What would that matter. Businesses change business plans all the time. MMOs more than any business I have seen. Heck some MMOs have reworked the entire game to make it fit adding a cash shop without impacting game play. We gamers often forget that games are business. We want to play these games, they need to make a profit + production cost to keep the game going. If that does not happen, I would be more upset they didnt change to keep some stupid sense of honor. A cash shop can be made that does not impact game play. They could add a new feature like housing that you can get 40% of what you want in game and 60% from the cash shop with optional "cosmetic" options. Makeover kits and hair and beard styles. No one needs that crap but people sure like to buy them.
If on the one hand you think cash shops are the debil and ruin games, and you also think they are inevitable because "bean counters" then you are in a no win position. You need to lighten up thats my advice.
Unsure if that was directed at me? But you didnt specify and replied after my post.
Wasnt to you. Not going to look it up but it seems to me someone was saying they would never play a game that had pay to win cash shops, and yet when told they arent going to be anything but cosmetic they replied that the financial way of the world says they will be.
This topic is kinda of a Moot point. Devs are firm they will make it old school. Box price + Sub. I hope they do make it that way. Only thing to argue is if they can make it that way. Every MMO thats doing well, has some form of a cash shop. Pay to win or fluffy cosmetics, there is some type of cash shop no matter their payment model. People with deep pockets can help fund a lot of content for a game.
They can promise it will launch with the box price + sub model, but hopefully they didn't promise never to change it if needs of the business require them to do so in the future if the initial plan isn't successful.
What would that matter. Businesses change business plans all the time. MMOs more than any business I have seen. Heck some MMOs have reworked the entire game to make it fit adding a cash shop without impacting game play. We gamers often forget that games are business. We want to play these games, they need to make a profit + production cost to keep the game going. If that does not happen, I would be more upset they didnt change to keep some stupid sense of honor. A cash shop can be made that does not impact game play. They could add a new feature like housing that you can get 40% of what you want in game and 60% from the cash shop with optional "cosmetic" options. Makeover kits and hair and beard styles. No one needs that crap but people sure like to buy them.
I am in agreement with you, but some indie dev teams have made a mistake (IMO) of stating the monetization model will be "this was" and never will be changed, which is very unrealistic IMO.
If / when a change becomes necessary, many backers get extremely disenchanted and view it as a betrayal... which it is of course.
Never make promise you might not be able to keep is my motto.
(At least not without providing a probability of success matrix. Project Mgr till I die)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I never played EQ2 when it came out, the zones made me think of EQ1, which I played since launch, so didn't feel as 'new'. People are on there, and they can't wait for Pantheon, and the EQ1 servers still have a good population for a game of it's age. I think more people are going to be playing Pantheon than many think.
It's somewhat of a bold assumption at this point to believe anyone might get to play the finished game.
I am pretty certain that the game will release, in what final form (features, classes, zones), that will be the debate imo.
I never played EQ2 when it came out, the zones made me think of EQ1, which I played since launch, so didn't feel as 'new'. People are on there, and they can't wait for Pantheon, and the EQ1 servers still have a good population for a game of it's age. I think more people are going to be playing Pantheon than many think.
It's somewhat of a bold assumption at this point to believe anyone might get to play the finished game.
I am pretty certain that the game will release, in what final form (features, classes, zones), that will be the debate imo.
COnsidering that they are entering the last of the Pre-Alpha stages with Pre-Alpha 5. I would agree it would be unlikely they didnt reach release in some form. VR has felt confident enough to even try to add another class to their release plan with the Bard being the new goal. IMO we are still a ways off from beta or release. Early side of release could maybe be 2022. Im playing other games and not thinking about how much I want to play Pantheon.
For me? A release... that was also glorious beyond belief. The competition for my time is amazing right now. We live in a time of gaming where even a modded game from 10 years ago can draw me in deeply.
I feel like they are gunning for average at best. This alpha bullshit is embarrassing. The transparency is bad. The game design looks scattered. The graphics are dated. They are appealing to people that crave older games (which I would be into if I thought they could pull it off).
The product.
The end product is the only thing that could make me believe.
I never played EQ2 when it came out, the zones made me think of EQ1, which I played since launch, so didn't feel as 'new'. People are on there, and they can't wait for Pantheon, and the EQ1 servers still have a good population for a game of it's age. I think more people are going to be playing Pantheon than many think.
It's somewhat of a bold assumption at this point to believe anyone might get to play the finished game.
I am pretty certain that the game will release, in what final form (features, classes, zones), that will be the debate imo.
COnsidering that they are entering the last of the Pre-Alpha stages with Pre-Alpha 5.
The last of the Pre-Alpha stages? Are you sure about that? Who is to say that Pre-Alpha 5 "Shakeout" doesn't turn into Post Pre-Alpha 5A Shakeout 2: Electric Boogaloo? I mean they could go all the way to Post Pre-Alpha 5Z Shakeout 2: Return of Sherlock Gnomes. A whole alphabet of letters and pre-alpha stage names to go through and pitch Alpha Access pledges before it's too late!
Comments
I think to continue to develop meaningful content (plus a profit) once the game launches... monthly subs just won't be enough. Cash shop for minor things and cosmetics, probably a smart move.
But even cosmetic items goes against their philosophy. Every item in game will have unique looks. So no same skins for multiple items, like say WoW does. They want players to know where you've been (or ask where you got that item) just by looking at you. It's all part of there plan for character and class identity.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
He has stated multiple times that he comes up with those questions to keep the community active/involved.
Just because kilsin comes up with a question doesn't mean the topic of those questions are being considered by VR. He has made that very well known over the years if you have been following closely.
For example, you bring up cosmetic pets. Do you not remember the shitstorm that was the long pet thread in... maybe... 2016? 15?... that ended up being closed and Brad got frustrated saying people were misinterpreting what he was saying and back tracked and the community was up in arms over it for a week or so? It's kind of a well known thread...
I guarantee they don't want to go there again lol.
How interesting is the game world and how big is it? How are the quests? How are the classes? How is the gameplay/combat? How fluid are the animations/character controls? If the core elements of the game are good those other things can add more depth to the game if they are also good but if the core elements are not good it doesn't matter if you have to wear clothes when it's cold or the perception system is a neat feature because the game will suck.
They also don't matter if the game never releases and that's my only real question at this point..is this really going to release or is it just a painfully drawn out pipe dream that is sadly selling pledges as it slowly fails to materialize?
Considering we have so little to go on about the greater game world and we are 6 years into it..all these little details seem almost irrelevant to me.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The question is will those players stick around? EQ of the last 15 or 18 years is a completely different game than when it was popular.
If pantheon ends up like EQ of the last 15ish years it will be just like 1000 other games out there today but it wont have the same nostalgia factor to keep players around.
If it is challenging with harsh penalties for failure (which they seem to be shying away from the last year or 2) how many people will stick around for the long run? It is a bit of a catch 22.
In the end, the only way I see Pantheon lasting is if it separates itself from other mmos by being a game that is harsh and difficult. Even then it will have to survive on a, somewhat, niche player base when compared to the larger games in the industry.
It's kind of like the comparison people make between fortnite and pubg. Fortnite being wow....pantheon has a chance to be pubg if it doesn't muddy the waters and make itself to easy. I think this whole "2 hour play session" thing they have been hanging their hat on is doing themselves a disservice and may end up screwing themselves in the long run.
If there arent harsh penalties for failure and bad players can be successful in Pantheon I dont see it lasting. It Will just be another one of the masses that players try and move on.
If you believe what VR has told us cash shops are not inevitable. They are not even a possibility.
The problem comes if they say things that end up being false. It is much larger than a specific game system like cash shops. It is more about whether players trust what they are being told and whether they will stick with that company long term through the highs and the lows.
Not every expansion or addition can be perfect or even good.
Are players devoted to the company, not only because of the game, but because the company is sincere and the players consider them to be dependable? Does the company present themselves in a way that makes the community want to stick around for the long run? Even when they produce what might be considered bad content? Through thick and thin? Or do the players feel distrust because of dishonesty and bail at the first sign of a slip up in development because they don't have faith in the team?
Vr can still earn peoples trust but they have to start being much more honest and up front with the community imho. It is slipping and the game isn't anywhere close to release. It would go a long way in my book if they openly addressed many of the difficult questions about the team and development that have happened over the last 6 years. Admit their faults and earn the respect of the community that has been slowly diminishing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If / when a change becomes necessary, many backers get extremely disenchanted and view it as a betrayal... which it is of course.
Never make promise you might not be able to keep is my motto.
(At least not without providing a probability of success matrix. Project Mgr till I die)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I feel like they are gunning for average at best. This alpha bullshit is embarrassing. The transparency is bad. The game design looks scattered. The graphics are dated. They are appealing to people that crave older games (which I would be into if I thought they could pull it off).
The product.
The end product is the only thing that could make me believe.