All alone here.

Scot

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

xpsync said:

KnightFalz said:

xpsync said:

TwistedSister77 said:

I read this thread, had to re-read the original post. 

I just fail to see this epic one person battle to keep alive the dying memory of what a true mmorpg should be... 

I love the classics, hope a great new mmorpg comes out someday.... enjoy this site for discussing old and new games... /confused

There are many of us out there whom played real mmorpg's and hate on wow for destroying what once was.

Which MMORPGs do you imagine are imaginary?

MMORPGs have changed over time. You may not like how they have changed, but that doesn't make them other than what they are.

To contend otherwise is like saying cars with an automatic transmission are not such, because only those with a manual transmission truly are.

Which mmorpg's did you play pre wow?

They are mmo's now not mmorpg's, if you have no frame of reference then how would you know?

I'm sure you've played plenty post wow and never said that is a bad thing, what we want back are ones which kept us engaged for years on end, not for a couple weeks or days here and there.

If you truly played anything pre wow, we wouldn't be talking. If you love the way mmo's are today, that's great, not sure why you're trying to sell me on it? as you can have it, no argument here my dude, enjoy.

It's called "rose colored glasses".

I played them all since UO beta... that was 25 years ago.

You have roleplayers making the MMO also an RPG in games today just as you has some back then, and back then you had just as many griefers, idiots, kiddies and general morons ruining the RP part than today.

When developers don't bother with housing, guild HQ's, RP tools, nothing that causes downtime, when groups are not needed, classes are gender locked, when there is no location that does not have players running by and lore is a paragraph or two; then you only have roleplaying despite what MMO's have to offer, not because of it.

KnightFalz

xpsync said:

KnightFalz said:

xpsync said:

TwistedSister77 said:

I read this thread, had to re-read the original post. 

I just fail to see this epic one person battle to keep alive the dying memory of what a true mmorpg should be... 

I love the classics, hope a great new mmorpg comes out someday.... enjoy this site for discussing old and new games... /confused

There are many of us out there whom played real mmorpg's and hate on wow for destroying what once was.

Which MMORPGs do you imagine are imaginary?

MMORPGs have changed over time. You may not like how they have changed, but that doesn't make them other than what they are.

To contend otherwise is like saying cars with an automatic transmission are not such, because only those with a manual transmission truly are.

Which mmorpg's did you play pre wow?

They are mmo's now not mmorpg's, if you have no frame of reference then how would you know?

I'm sure you've played plenty post wow and never said that is a bad thing, what we want back are ones which kept us engaged for years on end, not for a couple weeks or days here and there.

If you truly played anything pre wow, we wouldn't be talking. If you love the way mmo's are today, that's great, not sure why you're trying to sell me on it? as you can have it, no argument here my dude, enjoy.

Asheron's Call mostly, with a dash of UO and The Realm.

Project: Gorgon isn't prior to WoW so doesn't belong on that list, though it has aspects that at least bear some similarity to that period.

I have played little of WoW, but have played a great deal of CoH.

Currently I play ESO mostly, and dabble in CoH, CO, and P:G as it suits me.

We are having this conversation regardless, and my question still stands.

Also, my playing of a game should not be confused with adoration of it. Rather, it represents a game with a combination of virtues and flaws I consider enjoyable enough to play. The exception is CoH, which I loved dearly when the game was live. It remains enjoyable, but the magic of the moment did not resurrect with it.

xpsync

Lets dissect this apparently overwhelming convincing argument that mmorpg's are better today just changed.

"To contend otherwise is like saying cars with an automatic transmission are not such, because only those with a manual transmission truly are."

Manual transmission was far superior as it meant that only people that know how to drive , drove.

Imagine that world, if you had enough intelligence and skill then you can drive.

Nothing stopping a single digit child from grabbing mom and dads keys and going for a spin, not sure that's better tbh. But yeah it's still driving.

Amaranthar

Scot said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

xpsync said:

KnightFalz said:

xpsync said:

TwistedSister77 said:

I read this thread, had to re-read the original post. 

I just fail to see this epic one person battle to keep alive the dying memory of what a true mmorpg should be... 

I love the classics, hope a great new mmorpg comes out someday.... enjoy this site for discussing old and new games... /confused

There are many of us out there whom played real mmorpg's and hate on wow for destroying what once was.

Which MMORPGs do you imagine are imaginary?

MMORPGs have changed over time. You may not like how they have changed, but that doesn't make them other than what they are.

To contend otherwise is like saying cars with an automatic transmission are not such, because only those with a manual transmission truly are.

Which mmorpg's did you play pre wow?

They are mmo's now not mmorpg's, if you have no frame of reference then how would you know?

I'm sure you've played plenty post wow and never said that is a bad thing, what we want back are ones which kept us engaged for years on end, not for a couple weeks or days here and there.

If you truly played anything pre wow, we wouldn't be talking. If you love the way mmo's are today, that's great, not sure why you're trying to sell me on it? as you can have it, no argument here my dude, enjoy.

It's called "rose colored glasses".

I played them all since UO beta... that was 25 years ago.

You have roleplayers making the MMO also an RPG in games today just as you has some back then, and back then you had just as many griefers, idiots, kiddies and general morons ruining the RP part than today.

When developers don't bother with housing, guild HQ's, RP tools, nothing that causes downtime, when groups are not needed, classes are gender locked, when there is no location that does not have players running by and lore is a paragraph or two; then you only have roleplaying despite what MMO's have to offer, not because of it.

Agreed. 
The thing is, without the RP tools then the RP is entirely generated by the Players, and very lacking in the resulting "feel." 

Amaranthar

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Scot said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

xpsync said:

KnightFalz said:

xpsync said:

TwistedSister77 said:

I read this thread, had to re-read the original post. 

I just fail to see this epic one person battle to keep alive the dying memory of what a true mmorpg should be... 

I love the classics, hope a great new mmorpg comes out someday.... enjoy this site for discussing old and new games... /confused

There are many of us out there whom played real mmorpg's and hate on wow for destroying what once was.

Which MMORPGs do you imagine are imaginary?

MMORPGs have changed over time. You may not like how they have changed, but that doesn't make them other than what they are.

To contend otherwise is like saying cars with an automatic transmission are not such, because only those with a manual transmission truly are.

Which mmorpg's did you play pre wow?

They are mmo's now not mmorpg's, if you have no frame of reference then how would you know?

I'm sure you've played plenty post wow and never said that is a bad thing, what we want back are ones which kept us engaged for years on end, not for a couple weeks or days here and there.

If you truly played anything pre wow, we wouldn't be talking. If you love the way mmo's are today, that's great, not sure why you're trying to sell me on it? as you can have it, no argument here my dude, enjoy.

It's called "rose colored glasses".

I played them all since UO beta... that was 25 years ago.

You have roleplayers making the MMO also an RPG in games today just as you has some back then, and back then you had just as many griefers, idiots, kiddies and general morons ruining the RP part than today.

When developers don't bother with housing, guild HQ's, RP tools, nothing that causes downtime, when groups are not needed, classes are gender locked, when there is no location that does not have players running by and lore is a paragraph or two; then you only have roleplaying despite what MMO's have to offer, not because of it.

- Most mainstream modern MMORPGs have housing, which can be used as guild HQs too.

- What is a RP tool ? Emotes ? All have them. Costume systems ? They have it too. The only really unique RP tool I see in all the MMOs in the last 25 years is the music system of LotRO, which is indeed amazing.

- The downtime argument is bullcrap, as well as the forced grouping one. Both UO and AC1 were VERY social games and didn't have neither excessive downtime nor forced grouping.

- Only a few Asian games have gender locked classes. Yeah it's a shame, and it definitely ruins games for me too, but most modern MMORPGs don't have them.
- You can't say that lore is a paragraph or two in games like GW2 or ESO for instance.

You seem to focus on shit Asian games as reference for modern MMORPGs, when you have a ton of excellent games which check all your boxes.

I hadn't read your post before my reply (just above). 
You bring up some good points. 

Now that I started this post, I realized that it's going to take a loooong time to explain what I want to explain. And I don't have the desire anymore for that sort of thing. 
Besides, players that are left in this vast wasteland simply don't understand it, or want it.  
Only those who aren't around anymore to read it would understand what I'd want say. With a half-handful of exceptions. 
So I'll leave it at that. 

xpsync

"Most mainstream modern MMORPGs have housing"

That's debatable.

SWG best housing ever, that is what "mmorpg" housing is all about, only your imagination is the limit and not instanced.

EQ2 fantastic configurable housing and even more variety than SWG and again limited only by your imagination, however was instanced, in the case of EQ2 and how powerful it was, a minor complaint.

ESO i'd have a real hard time calling that "housing" after playing swg and eq2, real mmorpg worlds, they are so completely different.

EQ2, SWG so robust you could just decorate for months, and years and i know people who did only that, people would hire them to decorate their in game homes. I'd be worried if someone hired anyone in ESO to decorate.

ESO is horrifyingly watered down in comparision, ok i placed my picture, whelp done, nothing left to do housing wise, at least i can say it has... housing? really? not really.

KnightFalz

xpsync said:

Lets dissect this apparently overwhelming convincing argument that mmorpg's are better today just changed.

Who said anything about MMORPGs being better today?

They have changed over time. They are different than they were. Different does not inherently mean better, or worse. It simply means different.

The value assigned to either is in the mind of the beholder.

KnightFalz

xpsync said:

"Most mainstream modern MMORPGs have housing"

That's debatable.

SWG best housing ever, that is what "mmorpg" housing is all about, only your imagination is the limit and not instanced.

EQ2 fantastic configurable housing and even more variety than SWG and again limited only by your imagination, however was instanced, in the case of EQ2 and how powerful it was, a minor complaint.

ESO i'd have a real hard time calling that "housing" after playing swg and eq2, real mmorpg worlds, they are so completely different.

EQ2, SWG so robust you could just decorate for months, and years and i know people who did only that, people would hire them to decorate their in game homes. I'd be worried if someone hired anyone in ESO to decorate.

ESO is horrifyingly watered down in comparision, ok i placed my picture, whelp done, nothing left to do housing wise, at least i can say it has... housing? really? not really.

ESO housing isn't all that great. I use it as a supplementary fast travel system for the most part. Perhaps the NPC pathing they are adding in will make it more interesting to those that enjoy decorating and such.

Amaranthar

KnightFalz said:

xpsync said:

Lets dissect this apparently overwhelming convincing argument that mmorpg's are better today just changed.

Who said anything about MMORPGs being better today?

They have changed over time. They are different than they were. Different does not inherently mean better, or worse. It simply means different.

The value assigned to either is in the mind of the beholder.

Ok, heard this multiple times before and I do not agree. 
+...The art/animations are better in the better games, there's no question about that. 
-...The problems that arose from the Level/Gaps design has never been fixed, only white-washed with Scaling. 
+...Technology has improved some aspects of the games. 
-...The RP has deteriorated due to lack of RP design.
-...They are more SP and MP than MMO, more so than ever or on a wider scale.
-..."Community" has vanished.
-...Cash Shops have become the standard, pretty much, substituting for Rewards. 
-...Easy and no/little loss is by design.

I'm sure the list can go on with more thought. 
Anyone of the "opinion" that today's games are as good or better than the old MMORPGs are welcome to their opinion, but the losses to actual game play have mounted up and been replaced by blue ribbons for extremely little challenge and effort. 
That's not gaming, it's purely casual entertainment. 
Yes, there's some slight effort to get back to earlier Game Play With Challenge, and these slight efforts are hailed by many as a return to "true gaming." 
But they are far too short of the mark. 

Opinions are not facts. Don't rely on them in these debates. 

GeezerGamer

Every time I have ever been wrong, I have admitted my mistake. Without fail. Without exception. Both times.

Amaranthar

GeezerGamer said:

Every time I have ever been wrong, I have admitted my mistake. Without fail. Without exception. Both times.

Yeah, well, if you have anything of substance, I'd like to hear it. 
Smart-arsery is about as good a substitute as "an opinion" when it comes to what's really what.

Kyleran

Amaranthar said:

KnightFalz said:

xpsync said:

Lets dissect this apparently overwhelming convincing argument that mmorpg's are better today just changed.

Who said anything about MMORPGs being better today?

They have changed over time. They are different than they were. Different does not inherently mean better, or worse. It simply means different.

The value assigned to either is in the mind of the beholder.

Ok, heard this multiple times before and I do not agree. 
+...The art/animations are better in the better games, there's no question about that. 
-...The problems that arose from the Level/Gaps design has never been fixed, only white-washed with Scaling. 
+...Technology has improved some aspects of the games. 
-...The RP has deteriorated due to lack of RP design.
-...They are more SP and MP than MMO, more so than ever or on a wider scale.
-..."Community" has vanished.
-...Cash Shops have become the standard, pretty much, substituting for Rewards. 
-...Easy and no/little loss is by design.

I'm sure the list can go on with more thought. 
Anyone of the "opinion" that today's games are as good or better than the old MMORPGs are welcome to their opinion, but the losses to actual game play have mounted up and been replaced by blue ribbons for extremely little challenge and effort. 
That's not gaming, it's purely casual entertainment. 
Yes, there's some slight effort to get back to earlier Game Play With Challenge, and these slight efforts are hailed by many as a return to "true gaming." 
But they are far too short of the mark. 

Opinions are not facts. Don't rely on them in these debates. 

You know, your assessment on the features you mentioned are mostly just your opinion, right?

I can agree MMORPGs released post 2005 aren't to my liking for a variety of reasons, but whether modern games are better or worse is still a matter of opinion.

Amaranthar

Kyleran said:

Amaranthar said:

KnightFalz said:

xpsync said:

Lets dissect this apparently overwhelming convincing argument that mmorpg's are better today just changed.

Who said anything about MMORPGs being better today?

They have changed over time. They are different than they were. Different does not inherently mean better, or worse. It simply means different.

The value assigned to either is in the mind of the beholder.

Ok, heard this multiple times before and I do not agree. 
+...The art/animations are better in the better games, there's no question about that. 
-...The problems that arose from the Level/Gaps design has never been fixed, only white-washed with Scaling. 
+...Technology has improved some aspects of the games. 
-...The RP has deteriorated due to lack of RP design.
-...They are more SP and MP than MMO, more so than ever or on a wider scale.
-..."Community" has vanished.
-...Cash Shops have become the standard, pretty much, substituting for Rewards. 
-...Easy and no/little loss is by design.

I'm sure the list can go on with more thought. 
Anyone of the "opinion" that today's games are as good or better than the old MMORPGs are welcome to their opinion, but the losses to actual game play have mounted up and been replaced by blue ribbons for extremely little challenge and effort. 
That's not gaming, it's purely casual entertainment. 
Yes, there's some slight effort to get back to earlier Game Play With Challenge, and these slight efforts are hailed by many as a return to "true gaming." 
But they are far too short of the mark. 

Opinions are not facts. Don't rely on them in these debates. 

You know, your assessment on the features you mentioned are mostly just your opinion, right?

I can agree MMORPGs released post 2005 aren't to my liking for a variety of reasons, but whether modern games are better or worse is still a matter of opinion.

Those aren't opinions, Kyleran. 
They aren't even "assessments." 
They are, sadly, the facts.