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Difference between the perception of mmorpg rpg systems and reality in litRPG books
blamo2000
Member RarePosts: 1,130
I started reading some books in a genre I just heard of - LitRPG (short for literature rpgs) after reading a series my son recommended called the Cradle series by Will Wight (he calls it waxia or something and that series is great but not litrpg, the litrpgs recommendations came from kindle after reading that).
There are some really, really good litrpg books and some really, really bad ones - one common theme they all have is a pretty involved and non-sophomoric rpg systems. I would kill for an mmorpg based on Reborn Apocalypse or The Ritualist series or Tower of Heaven. Basically any of them, even the systems from the horrible books because they are so, so much better than what reality gives us or anything we have to look forward to.
Granted balance isn't always big in these systems with rare classes or abilities, etc. Or unique skills. But even if the systems were balanced, it would still blow most games out of the water besides maybe DDO. Only AO maybe comes remotely close after that. All these books revolve around significant choices (and lots of them) the character makes, something modern mmorpgs have completely removed for the most part. Just think how boring litrpg books would be if they were actually modelled after the boring ass rpg lite tripe all the popular mmorpgs have now and have for well, well over a decade.
It is pretty sad I am reduced to getting my mmorpg fix from books now seeing as game is part of the acronym and I much rather scratch my mmorpg itch with an actual mmorpg.
Alright, I just wanted to whine about this real quick. Thank you for letting me get this off my chest.
There are some really, really good litrpg books and some really, really bad ones - one common theme they all have is a pretty involved and non-sophomoric rpg systems. I would kill for an mmorpg based on Reborn Apocalypse or The Ritualist series or Tower of Heaven. Basically any of them, even the systems from the horrible books because they are so, so much better than what reality gives us or anything we have to look forward to.
Granted balance isn't always big in these systems with rare classes or abilities, etc. Or unique skills. But even if the systems were balanced, it would still blow most games out of the water besides maybe DDO. Only AO maybe comes remotely close after that. All these books revolve around significant choices (and lots of them) the character makes, something modern mmorpgs have completely removed for the most part. Just think how boring litrpg books would be if they were actually modelled after the boring ass rpg lite tripe all the popular mmorpgs have now and have for well, well over a decade.
It is pretty sad I am reduced to getting my mmorpg fix from books now seeing as game is part of the acronym and I much rather scratch my mmorpg itch with an actual mmorpg.
Alright, I just wanted to whine about this real quick. Thank you for letting me get this off my chest.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Umm what was the problem again?
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Just listening to a book,i don't think that would interest me as i have never been int reading books.I have always been a very active person,i would be outside or in arenas playing sports 24/7.
Now a days obviously less active but my personality has already been molded.Even if the audio books were something of interest,i would just seek out the exact same thing done in 3d video format.
I realize that if we are talking about rpg audio books i am not going to find that in video format anywhere.Yet again i would prefer to watch a rpg movie than listen to a book because it utilizes more of the human senses.I actually enjoyed watching the Warcraft movie,sure it was very short,left out a lot of stuff but it was entertaining to watch.
An audio book on the other hand would likely put me to sleep,similar to a bad movie.
Maybe 20 years ago but now a days there is sooooooooo much on the internet that is visually interesting.Cultures,people speaking different languages,various inventors,history etc etc,i would simply find listening to a book a lesser option,like i NEVER run out of stuff to watch/listen to that would force me to an audio book.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Also, a lot of it wouldn't work in a non virtual world. Feeling pain, actual consequences for your actions, living in a whole new world. Maybe some day.
I've noticed the more I read, the less I want to play any so called mmorpg today because they just kind of pale in comparison.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Pain, for example. Players get damage and then they get healed. It means nothing. So players will try anything regardless of consequences.
But a game could put in effects that last for a longer time period, such as reductions to performance. Then, players would not want those effects so they would be much more careful what they do.
I haven't thought about this before, so I think, off the top of my head, that you'd want to separate that "pain effect" out from normal battle damage. Trap damage, as a possibility. "Real fire" vs. Magical fire", as another.
Lots to think about in deign concept with this one.
Once upon a time....
An AI running the game, quests, and economy has nothing to do with the rpg system a game has, chardev, etc. A game without any quests, economy, or any content besides combat could still have a great rpg system. Just look at most Dungeon Crawler blobbers and imagine them having a more advanced rpg system with the same content (usually, and definitely in the 80s, the content was almost exclusively combat and puzzles with a lot of recent examples like Grimrock, etc.).
Also, feeling pain really isn't key or necessary to a good rpg system. Only implementing a good rpg system. See DDO.
Consequences for actions is definitely doable now. People just usually don't like it. Just as they usually don't seem to like in-depth and choice heavy rpg systems. Look at Wow through WotLK and post WotLK. Look at the system SWtOR at release and what the nerfed the system into. Look at GW2's old system versus new, etc. Look at ESO versus something as rpg-lite as Skyrim - how you could make a system even liter than Skyrim? ESO did it. Look at the blowback LotRO took for adding a slightly more advanced rpg chardev system.
Look at all the major mmorpgs being developed - all have pretty "streamlined" and very sophomoric rpg systems (besides maybe SC which I have zero knowledge of so maybe that one does).
I honestly think it is just a huge divide between what people claim they want in a game, and what has to be in literature for the lit to be interesting, but what the absolutely want purged from all games - (complex systems, choice-heavy and significant chardev, thinking, learning systems, etc.).
I can recommend some that have just completely sucked me in though -
Reborn Apocalypse series
The Completionist Chronicles (or the Ritualist). This one is kind of weird but after the first couple chapters I was hooked.
The Tower of Heaven series.
Enemy of the World. A Korean translation about a way OP melee guy who everyone hates who needs to restart and develop his magic ability because he can't beat the head bad guy with just melee.
There is a good one I forgot the name of but it is about a rare summons that was a boss reward and was a human child that was really weak so the summoner didn't want him. He goes off on his own and grows, etc. Not mind-blowing but worth reading.
Another one I forget the name of is a series about what happens after the rpg apocalypse. In one the system has been running earth for a 1,000 years. Pretty decent with an interesting premise.
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I don't know why the Cradle series by Will Wight is considered litrpg since it has no stats at all and is written like most of what these waxia books seem to be, where you have soul levels and increase in soul level to increase your power. But I cannot recommend this series high enough. I haven;t been that engrossed in a series since I read my first ASOIAF book in the 90s. Another great waxia one is called something like "The first thousand Li." The same guy who wrote the Canadian post-apoc litrpg series I can't remember the name of. I couldn't really get into that series, but I loved his waxia series.
And if these waxia books are considered litrpg for some reason, one great series I can recommend almost to the extent I can recommend the Cradle series is Sidekicks by Arthur Mayor. The premise is a super hero team gets taken out by the bad guys, and all their sidekicks have to form a new team to fight the bad guys who killed all their much stronger mentors. Lots of growth and advancement without stats, just like waxia so i guess has to be considered litrpg like waxia. Really, really, really fantastic series.
--
Anyone else have any solid recommendations?
Great for those nights you just can't fall asleep.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Once upon a time....
You have 3.5 D20 base system in a weird world with a construct race and wizards able to heal constructs. Add onto that usually three skill trees for each class, plus a bunch of other skill trees, with an open system, and you have DDO. What kills it for me is all the reincarnations needed to max out a character. I finished the reincarnations and then they added racial reincarnations (with i think 9 races), each needing to be reincarnated three times to get the bonus racial skill point. It is too much and killed my spirit.
But rpg system wise, DDO can't be touched. Not even a close second. AO is a far, far distant second in my opinion.
I really thought the Land was awful and if that was my first i would have never even looked at the genre and definitely would have writ the whole genre off.
Two recommendations that both kind of do the same thing is Reborn Apocalypse and Tower of Heaven. Same premise, very different execution.
https://www.amazon.com/Reborn-Apocalypse-LitRPG-Wuxia-Story-ebook/dp/B07RNNJB8K
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QH93BMR?notRedirectToSDP=1&ref_=dbs_mng_calw_0&storeType=ebooks
For a more traditional litrpg you have this series I thought was really good -
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B27XQLF?notRedirectToSDP=1&ref_=dbs_mng_calw_0&storeType=ebooks
For anyone who just loves great books, this one is considered litrpg but has no stats. First book does not get good until near the end, but then it gets great and every book gets better and better. -
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H1CYBS6?notRedirectToSDP=1&ref_=dbs_mng_calw_0&storeType=ebooks
And in that context, I would agree with you opinion of DDO.
Being forced to Reincarnate (even worse in such a tiered, multiple design like that) seems bad to me. A lot of people don't want to have had their character reincarnated like that, not even once. They want their character to be what they created it as.
Besides, that just sounds so gamey. Are players actually dying on purpose to achieve the goals? Gamey.
Once upon a time....
Everyone who does it does it 100% on purpose to become more powerful. Some probably do it to fix a build or try out a new build. There is limits to what you can do without reincarnation.
https://ddowiki.com/page/Reincarnation
As to your first point - I think everyone's definition of RP is the same - roleplay. To play a role.
We are not talking about playing a role. We are talking about the systems that dictate the emulation or simulation of a character within a specific system's world with the world and other players. The rpg system. In pen and paper it would be the rules for the most part. Like BG with 2nd edition AD&D, NWN was 3rd edition d20. NWN2 was 3.5 edition D20. Pathfinder Kingmaker was the pathfinder enhanced rules for 3.5e. FallOut 1 started out as GURPS. Realms of Arkania and Drakensang 1 and 2 were TDE. I think BG 3 is going to be 5e d20.
The setting would usually impact roleplaying probably more than the rpg system. HARN has their own rpg system, but has a brutal lowish magic setting that would just play far different than a Forgot Realms campaign setting, even if you used 3.5 for each, or HARNs system for each.
I don't get out much these days, spent the afternoon shopping with my wife, noticed there were new Jeep pick up trucks which I'd never seen before.
Told my wife next time it will probably be someone with a personal jet.pack.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I must try another one of these types of books and I see some titles here, I have to check them out.
I listened to a lot of audiobooks but I also read books in ebook form. The narrator is extremely important in my decisions as they really uplift the audiobook and so many times the reading has actually simply stuck in my head the voice and the phrases seem to personify the book. Graphic Audio is another great format. Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series was very well done by Graphic Audio.
So to me the market for audio books would be a very small market,your maybe travelling and you don't own a laptop.Of course there is the notion that those books might be Fantasy.Idk i just think you have to be really into that sort of thing to want to do it and buy the audio books.You see i don't need to buy anything with the internet free and full of interesting stuff to watch.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I hear and agree with your point, but since rpg has meant absolutely nothing for decades why should books be any differnt? Especially since adventure games with no stats like Avowed are labelled and considered rpgs, even puzzle games are labeled rpgs. The book genre CYOA, when in eletronic format are now somehow considered rpgs.
Most western games are now as much rpgs as jrpgs, where there is a set protagonist with a set attitude in a set story. You have a little game between passive cut scenes. Everyone considers these rpgs.
Gary Gygax said if the game is being directed you are not playing an rpg. Rpgs have always been and always will be story creation, not passive story telling as they are now.
But, LitRPGs have an easy out since they do not claim to be rpgs - they claim to be literate with rpg systems. So they definitely are what they claim to be (for the most part), if not what people have changed the longer form to be in shorthand.
That doesn't make a RPing game, in my book. It just gives you a few choices at specific points that change one guided finish to another.
Once upon a time....
Even kids playing something like cops and robbers still have rules. If you are playing cops and robbers I can't just decide I'm a wizard and cast a spell to kill the cops in the world and then win.
Improv acting might be the purest form of rping, but you still have directions or character descriptions that act as rules (or confining elements). My wife and I sometimes roleplay and there are rules. If I wanted to play a naughty little girl and wanted her to play a creepy old man with a beard she would probably ask for a divorce.
Rules are what make the game part of rpgs a game. The ability to roleplay and create a story is what adds the rp to the g. And interaction in rpgs are the reason for stats and an rpg system, as they dictate how interactions with other characters, items, and the environment are resolved.
But this is all semantics. What an rpg video game is is what the majority of people in the market decide it is - and the majority of people in the gaming market have decided pretty much every game is an rpg, regardless of how little sense it makes.
And this is true for other terms. What "open-world" used to mean versus what people expect from an open-world game are pretty different. The games labeled as survival games usually are heavily crafting focused. Imagine if a hardcore open-world pvp mmorpg came out with no crafting. Imagine if a survival game came out with no crafting. People expect certain things from certain terms, and these expectations change and evolve over time. There was a pretty good discussion on a New World news post recently about what specific genre the game was.
But I think these sort of discussions are always good, as it broadens everyone's knowledge and shows what specific items people focus on or expect from certain terms.
It is not Waxia I think you meant Wuxia but it is not that either. Wuxia is the stories about people who practiced Martial Arts in ancient China. What Will's books are lean towards Xinxia which is a person's cultivation into an immortal. It is a mixture of Buddhism, Taoism and there is martial arts in the fighting and Chinese mythology is heavily in most of the stories. So there is a lot of work a person has to do and level up so to speak to attain immortality. (I watch way too many Chinese dramas with this theme
Although some people say he takes his inspiration from the Naruto series too.
The important thing is how the character levels up. The main protagonist in his books grows stronger similar to how characters in Xinxia grow stronger. That is also how players in an MMORPGs gain power too by levelling up.