MMORPG have become too much about the RPG?

Vermillion_Raventhal

I have always felt like game play in MMORPG have been leaning too heavily on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The online world aspect has largely been cosmetic place holder for questing.

The online world in my opinion is what differentiate MMORPG and RPG. The more you lean on the RPG aspect of the genre the more single player style it feels because most people don't want to slog through their own hand made story with random joes. Metrics show this and developers make games based around it. This is why most abilities turned 100% based around combat.

I have felt like the genre abandoned basing MMORPG around the game world. Many of this is called sandbox but you can still have RPG based around how you interact with the game world. The game play become based around how your character interacts with the world and players itself vs. solely on how your character defeats a hand crafted story.

For example your gear is based around killing. You don't have gear for weather or traveling difficult terrain. Villages/towns/cities serve the players needs for leveling. They don't usually make practical sense or used to promote trade between them.

TwistedSister77

At first I saw this thread, and I thought here we go again.  Then I read further and became confused.

OP - like a near naked barbarian going  into an icey Orc village?

  1) Shouldn't the barbarian have practical gear for the cold (like a survival rating or something).

2) shouldn't the barbarian be disguised in a orc friendly outfit so they aren't murdered on site (charisma check)

Is that what you're saying... you need to explain further 

Amathe

I'm not sure what you mean. RPG means different things to different people, ranging from role play to customizability to class mechanics to various forms of progression. I don't get where you are going? 

Vermillion_Raventhal

TwistedSister77 said:

At first I saw this thread, and I thought here we go again.  Then I read further and became confused.

OP - like a near naked barbarian going  into an icey Orc village?

  1) Shouldn't the barbarian have practical gear for the cold (like a survival rating or something).

2) shouldn't the barbarian be disguised in a orc friendly outfit so they aren't murdered on site (charisma check)

Is that what you're saying... you need to explain further 

Sorry I am on liquid diet and mind is distracted. Yes it is a lot of what you just said.  My point is that we have whole online worlds and they are nothing but props for the RPG aspect of the game. The whole world is arranged to be convenient for RPG.

The online aspect of the genre is lacking. The things that make online society are lacking. Gameplay based around the online world is lacking. The small touches that make you feel like you are in a society are lacking.

I think Rockstar has done a good job at this aspect of making a world feel like things are alive or happening for a reason. 
.

Albatroes

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I have always felt like game play in MMORPG have been leaning too heavily on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The online world aspect has largely been cosmetic place holder for questing.

The online world in my opinion is what differentiate MMORPG and RPG. The more you lean on the RPG aspect of the genre the more single player style it feels because most people don't want to slog through their own hand made story with random joes. Metrics show this and developers make games based around it. This is why most abilities turned 100% based around combat.

I have felt like the genre abandoned basing MMORPG around the game world. Many of this is called sandbox but you can still have RPG based around how you interact with the game world. The game play become based around how your character interacts with the world and players itself vs. solely on how your character defeats a hand crafted story.

For example your gear is based around killing. You don't have gear for weather or traveling difficult terrain. Villages/towns/cities serve the players needs for leveling. They don't usually make practical sense or used to promote trade between them.

I see where you're going with your point, but I don't think you're grasping why MMORPGs are going in the way they are. MMORPGs are being designed like solo/jump-in-jump-out games because they have been marketed to a very broad audience over the years. They're trying to pull in people that normally play solo games with the 'story'/lore/etc and the collectors with the pets/mounts/costumes/etc. You take all of those and more, then combine with with the illusion of difficult that actual 'mmorpg' gamers are 'used' to and then carter more to which activities succeed (pretty much what wow has been doing since Legion).

Now as an actual mmorpg gamer, the problem comes when you figure out the illusion, which is 'scaling.' FFXIV/WoW/probably others follow the same pattern of automatically scaling up new content at the level or past the previous level's content. So if something was the hardest tier in the previous patch, the new 'lower' end will be at that level just because its new. This ends up doing one of three things for those players: 1) they are just fine with it, 2) they don't push themselves past a certain point because they know the new thing will just be at the level of the hardest content of the current patch anyway, 3) quit.

In short, the mmorpg gamer audience was never really that big to begin with and the 'new' people 'mostly' funding these popular games (FFXIV, WoW, ESO, GW2, etc) only care about the experience and cosmetics.

Side note: I wont get on my high horse and say that I miss challenging content, because honestly, things like mythic raiding and salvage raid bosses can be pretty difficult and nice to do when they first come out. However, the problem with me and this content (as far as never really taking it seriously) is that the new patch just scales the lowest end up. It used to be nice to take time off and miss out on a raid tier and still seeing people struggling, while also potentially going back to help people and having something new to look forward to. Now its like "I killed Mythic G'huun when 385 was solid now world quests are dropping 415." Some people might not understand that feeling, which is fine, but I does make me personally care less about content when its treated like nothing. And no, I don't care about mounts enough to justify why this happens (old excuse of 'well at least you got this cosmetic from it').

Wizardry

It is the exact opposite,it doesn't weigh in on the rpg aspect at all.
Ideas like instances and item levels are NOT role playing ideas.I would even say that there is an argument even the questing does not relate to role playing because MOST quests do NOT feel like a quest but instead an ERRAND runner,no different than getting a pack of smokes for your old man or running to the store for a loaf of bread.

The world is as the OP stated,just a placeholder,very little life,almost no interaction,no ECOP systems etc etc.

So even the MMO in the MMORPG is misused because for the most part the players play these games like a single player game.Then even within a group setting they are often just doing their own thing.

Another poster got it  right and I stated as such years ago.The actual populace that WANTS to play a rpg is VERY small.The players we see now residing in mmorpg's are mostly superficial gamer's,they are there for loot or a pvp rank or to run instance/bosses all day.

IMO developers have abandoned AAA mmorpg's,instead they want to deliver less risky games like BG3 or ARPG's or Albion's.The shift moved towards Indie survival games but again low risk,nobody willing to spend that extra $$ or take another 2-3 years to do it right.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Amathe said:

I'm not sure what you mean. RPG means different things to different people, ranging from role play to customizability to class mechanics to various forms of progression. I don't get where you are going? 

I guess the gaming aspect of RPG. MMORPG are combination of online world and RPG. The players and world, you know, the online aspects are neglect in favor or the story and numbers.

Most MMORPG are like movie sets and we run through the story. The world is just a big prop to support this. There is no depth behind it. I think that is just a waste.

FoolOfATook39

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I have always felt like game play in MMORPG have been leaning too heavily on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The online world aspect has largely been cosmetic place holder for questing.

The online world in my opinion is what differentiate MMORPG and RPG. The more you lean on the RPG aspect of the genre the more single player style it feels because most people don't want to slog through their own hand made story with random joes. Metrics show this and developers make games based around it. This is why most abilities turned 100% based around combat.

I have felt like the genre abandoned basing MMORPG around the game world. Many of this is called sandbox but you can still have RPG based around how you interact with the game world. The game play become based around how your character interacts with the world and players itself vs. solely on how your character defeats a hand crafted story.

For example your gear is based around killing. You don't have gear for weather or traveling difficult terrain. Villages/towns/cities serve the players needs for leveling. They don't usually make practical sense or used to promote trade between them.

You should try FFXIV

TwistedSister77

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

TwistedSister77 said:

At first I saw this thread, and I thought here we go again.  Then I read further and became confused.

OP - like a near naked barbarian going  into an icey Orc village?

  1) Shouldn't the barbarian have practical gear for the cold (like a survival rating or something).

2) shouldn't the barbarian be disguised in a orc friendly outfit so they aren't murdered on site (charisma check)

Is that what you're saying... you need to explain further 

Sorry I am on liquid diet and mind is distracted. Yes it is a lot of what you just said.  My point is that we have whole online worlds and they are nothing but props for the RPG aspect of the game. The whole world is arranged to be convenient for RPG.

The online aspect of the genre is lacking. The things that make online society are lacking. Gameplay based around the online world is lacking. The small touches that make you feel like you are in a society are lacking.

I think Rockstar has done a good job at this aspect of making a world feel like things are alive or happening for a reason. 
.

So the RPG is just superficial + it was a liquid post... cheers!  

I mean I get it, which was why I first tried to teased out your thoughts.  It also always broke immersion for me in games, books, movies, etc... when things were off as you were alluding too (and in my example).  

Amathe

I think that no matter how much a game may be put "on rails" by quests and other tasks, once you put hundreds and thousands of people together there is going to be human drama. You can't code that out of a game.

AAAMEOW

It's like people telling me how mmorpg are raid focus, because you get the best gear out of raiding.

People see what they wanted to see.  

Quite honestly when I was young, all I was thinking is "this is good exp" while doing quest.

But when I got older I just can't do it any more.  I really don't enjoy it.

immodium

I understand. SWG was and still is my favorite MMO. I do miss it, I'm just glad I got to experience it.

bcbully

RPG =/= Questing 

Quests suck. Role playing is great.

Brainy

Rhoklaw said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I have always felt like game play in MMORPG have been leaning too heavily on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The online world aspect has largely been cosmetic place holder for questing.

The online world in my opinion is what differentiate MMORPG and RPG. The more you lean on the RPG aspect of the genre the more single player style it feels because most people don't want to slog through their own hand made story with random joes. Metrics show this and developers make games based around it. This is why most abilities turned 100% based around combat.

I have felt like the genre abandoned basing MMORPG around the game world. Many of this is called sandbox but you can still have RPG based around how you interact with the game world. The game play become based around how your character interacts with the world and players itself vs. solely on how your character defeats a hand crafted story.

For example your gear is based around killing. You don't have gear for weather or traveling difficult terrain. Villages/towns/cities serve the players needs for leveling. They don't usually make practical sense or used to promote trade between them.

You should pay attention to Ashes of Creation because they seem to be trying to put the world dynamics back into what seems to be a static genre. AoC takes the best of World of Warcraft, Black Desert Online and ArcheAge and blends them all together. It looks like it could be the savior of MMORPGs.

Ya except AoC is pushing PVP, so its not saving anything.

Brainy

Not sure I'm relating to this RPG line you are going on.  I think people play MMO's to not be themselves and want to be in an AVATAR with super powers they can aspire to be. 

Now if you mean questing, then I agree with you.  Way to much attention to solo questing happening.

I do think there is not enough community building in MMO's.  They should be focusing on people interacting with each other.  Find ways to bring people together versus apart.

kitarad

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I have always felt like game play in MMORPG have been leaning too heavily on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The online world aspect has largely been cosmetic place holder for questing.

The online world in my opinion is what differentiate MMORPG and RPG. The more you lean on the RPG aspect of the genre the more single player style it feels because most people don't want to slog through their own hand made story with random joes. Metrics show this and developers make games based around it. This is why most abilities turned 100% based around combat.

I have felt like the genre abandoned basing MMORPG around the game world. Many of this is called sandbox but you can still have RPG based around how you interact with the game world. The game play become based around how your character interacts with the world and players itself vs. solely on how your character defeats a hand crafted story.

For example your gear is based around killing. You don't have gear for weather or traveling difficult terrain. Villages/towns/cities serve the players needs for leveling. They don't usually make practical sense or used to promote trade between them.

I understand what you're saying and I raise the specter of Everquest. Now there was a game with hardly any quests and the ones they had were bloody hard to do alone. So in deference to this harsh reality people formed groups. Problem was the world was rather small and everyone was looking for the same loot and ended up queuing up for the chance at it because heaven forbid you couldn't just go willy nilly to another dungeon.

Not much chance to have roleplay in a world where one has to queue to beat up mobs. However people found ways to do so, damn them!

So the genre adjusted and introduced quests as a means to roleplay. I know that is a rather crude explanation but I do think developers were trying to create a roleplay scenario in a world that was hosting a large number of people but the dastardly humans just found a way to ruin it by rushing through the quests like they were rapidly going out of fashion.

Your point about the MMO part just being cosmetic and that the abilities were 100% based around combat is true now but games like Everquest had many abilities that had little to do with fighting. They were actually there to encourage rolepleying. Like talking through your skeleton or turning into a vase and silently stalking your friends.

People tend to condense experiences to what they do by themselves even when they are surrounded by other players. Games evolve this way even when you force them to experience it as a larger and more inclusive setting. People just try their best to solo.

Everything is indeed based on killing and how fast one can do that. There is far more interesting things to do in single player games that involve a large number of participants (albeit npcs) and that is sadly the irony of it.

Aeander

If anything, I'd say MMOs have been leaning on the wrong sides of the RPG genre. They're too focused on number chasing/grinding and not enough on choice. In that regard, MMOs feel like they're taking all of the worst aspects of the JRPG with none of the strong points.

Iselin

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I have always felt like game play in MMORPG have been leaning too heavily on the RPG aspect of MMORPG...

.... you can still have RPG based around how you interact with the game world.

It's funny how you use "RPG" as both a negative and positive almost as if you can't make up your own mind what RPG means to you, much less what it means to everyone else.

You say there is too much RPG in MMORPGs because it ignores the world (which I read as there's too much meat in my steak but not enough plate and table) in one sentence but then you also use RPG to describe your interaction with the world.

No wonder we can't agree on the definition of anything around here.

cameltosis

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I have always felt like game play in MMORPG have been leaning too heavily on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The online world aspect has largely been cosmetic place holder for questing.

The online world in my opinion is what differentiate MMORPG and RPG. The more you lean on the RPG aspect of the genre the more single player style it feels because most people don't want to slog through their own hand made story with random joes. Metrics show this and developers make games based around it. This is why most abilities turned 100% based around combat.

I have felt like the genre abandoned basing MMORPG around the game world. Many of this is called sandbox but you can still have RPG based around how you interact with the game world. The game play become based around how your character interacts with the world and players itself vs. solely on how your character defeats a hand crafted story.

For example your gear is based around killing. You don't have gear for weather or traveling difficult terrain. Villages/towns/cities serve the players needs for leveling. They don't usually make practical sense or used to promote trade between them.

I get where you are coming from, but I think you have it backwards: the RPG has been steadily removed from modern MMORPGs.

Story is not roleplaying.

Quests are not roleplaying

Levels are not roleplaying

However, these are all popular mechanics and so it is easy to sell a game based on them. They are mechanics mostly inherited from single player games, which is why basing games around them inevitably results in the solofication of an mmo.

As for the switch to more sandboxy design, with massive open worlds and 1000s of players, yes, that I exactly what I want too. Not exclusively - there is clearly a large market for the existing themepark design - but just as an alternative type of game that I can play.

There are some significant challenges involved in making the switch:

1) The game engine

As far as I'm aware, there doesn't exist a game engine that can handle massive worlds with 1000s of players. Literally doesn't exist. This is why we end up with layers / instancing / zoning. It is also why, for all their faults, I am still a big believer in CU: they're the only ones making the effort to create an engine that can fully support an mmo world. Time will tell whether they succeed or not.

2) Graphics

We've heard it time and time again from studios: graphics sell games. However, the more players you have in one area, the harder your graphics card has to work, so creating something truly massively multiplayer means you'll likely need to lower graphics quality, making it harder to sell.

3) Networking

Similar to the graphics problem, having 1000s of players in the same world presents some networking issues. I'm not too clued up on them if I'm honest, but im reliably informed that it is a difficult challenge to overcome.

4) Human Psychology

Probably the biggest barrier to a sandbox game design is simple human psychology. Most people aren't good at setting their own goals, let alone following through with them, but sandbox games typically don't do anything to help you in this regard. Similarly, sandbox games tend to be incredibly complex with steep learning curves. Most players aren't willing to put in a few hours work to learn the game before it gets fun, let alone 50+ hours. Now, I am convinced that good game design can overcome these problems, we just haven't gotten there yet.

Sovrath

I don't think quests, especially as they have been implemented, have anything to do with role playing.

DeadSpock

My understanding of RPG = role playing game so you take the role of a character and go through a storyline. But also I connect it with leveling/questing/gearing/enhancing/exploring and grinding to be stronger and stronger and it's a captivating aspect.
Now you're saying MMORPG are leaning more towards RPG and becoming single player? Absolutely not if anything if they lean more towards RPG they would be even better vs removing all the above and have no levels/gear update/quests/story or means to be stronger they would be so stale.
Problem with games being so single player is not that but what sells, ever since WoW gained very high population as a subscription game all other companies stopped making forced group/hard to solo mmorpg at the end it's all about the revenue not what you or me like. What is WoW it's a solo game with dungeons/raids that require grouping, that's what FFXIV is and almost every mmorpg of today.

Theocritus

Role playing isnt soloing...It is playing a role within a group, like we did in D&D years ago. The last MMO I role played in was EQ1.

Aeander

Sovrath said:

I don't think quests, especially as they have been implemented, have anything to do with role playing.

Depends on how much agency the player has. Which in a MMO is generally none.

The heart of an RPG is choice, whether that is mechanical (how you play) or story (what decisions you make in the narrative/world).

Sovrath

Aeander said:

Sovrath said:

I don't think quests, especially as they have been implemented, have anything to do with role playing.

Depends on how much agency the player has. Which in a MMO is generally none.

The heart of an RPG is choice, whether that is mechanical (how you play) or story (what decisions you make in the narrative/world).

So essentially Star Wars the Old Republic to a small extent and Elder Scrolls Online to a small extent.

BruceYee

I think he means the story being determined for you rather than creating it yourself.

The game features are supposed to be the props/tools that allows players to put on their own play/movie.

I have a feeling that at least in the mmo space 'thinking' games will start to make a comeback. When you look at how complex even some mobile games are getting and compare that to what has been shown of D4(I know, not MMO) it's no surprise that they had to close their France office. Force feeding simplicity to your customers that need a little more will make them look elsewhere for their entertainment.

cameltosis

DeadSpock said:

My understanding of RPG = role playing game so you take the role of a character and go through a storyline. But also I connect it with leveling/questing/gearing/enhancing/exploring and grinding to be stronger and stronger and it's a captivating aspect.

Role-playing is not simply taking on the role of a character, otherwise nearly everything would be an RPG, including all action-adventure games like Zelda and Assassins Creed, as well as all FPSes and third-person shooters. That clearly isn't the case.

Roleplaying requires interaction, decision making about what the role is.

In the Witcher, the roleplaying occurs through dialogue decisions. You get to choose, i.e. roleplay, the personality of Geralt. Are you benevelent? Do you blindly follow orders? Are you greedy for money?

In the Final Fantasy series, you dont get many story/dialogue decisions, but you get to choose how you spec or progress your team. Are you focused on physical attacks? Are you a fan of magic? Do you build your team around summoning? Do you take a female-focused party into battle?

In the Elder Scrolls series, the roleplaying is mostly about choosing combat roles. Are you melee? Are you ranged? Are you magic? You also get to choose (or ignore) which guilds and questlines to follow. Do you support the fighters guild? Do you go selfish and become a thief?

In MMORPGs, there often isn't much roleplaying involved in the story, though some, like SWTOR, do give you some choices between good, evil or neutral. But, you get some minor roleplaying choices in progression, namely your initial choice of class, then how you spec that class. But, you get other mechanics to support roleplaying, such as emotes, moods, dance moves, then extra systems like music and fishing. You can make your character happy, or angry, or stern. You can be a smoker, or a drinker. Thats you choosing the role for your character, i.e. playing the role.

In something like Assassins Creed, there is story, there are levels, there is gear progression etc. But, at no point do you ever get to make any decisions about the role you are playing. That is what makes those games action / adventure and not an RPG.