Game Industry (including J. Smedley) Talks About Depression

Amathe

This is a goid article about game making and depression.

https://venturebeat-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/venturebeat.com/2020/10/07/successful-game-industry-pros-talk-about-their-struggles-with-depression/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA=#aoh=16040027945087&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://venturebeat.com/2020/10/07/successful-game-industry-pros-talk-about-their-struggles-with-depression/

cameltosis

So, I've read a few of these articles and watched a few talks about depression in the games industry, gamesindustry.biz had a good one recently.

I've also suffered from depression myself since about 2007 (and anxiety for the last couple of years), though i've learned that the causes date back to my childhood in the mid 90s. Luckily, I've been able to get some great help over the last 2 years, so im getting better, though i've still got some way to go.

I've found myself quite annoyed with these talks and articles for a number of reasons. First, they don't seem to talk about what depression is, which is a huge oversight in my opinion. Second, they only seem to talk about managing depression, not curing it, and the way to manage it always has a very american approach: drugs + routine. If you really want to give people with mental health issues hope for the future, you damn well better talk about getting better and getting cured! There's nothing worse than someone telling you "tough shit, you got this for life".

Still, its good that some devs are opening up about it, its a positive step.

I'm happy to talk further about my own experiences / knowledge if anyone wants to ask, but happy to leave it here for now.

Amathe

Sadly, we are still in a day and age where mental illness is too often stigmatized. I think it is valuable for people to see that there are others like themselves. I'm not promoting the article as being perfect. But there are some perhaps who may take comfort in seeing people in the industry with depression  step forward.

AlBQuirky

Interesting!

I went and looked for the videos online, first at TIGS.ca.

Opening video


Smedley's Keynotw Video

kitarad

Let's say I know someone, okay for the sake of not revealing stuff to just anyone on the internet on a public forum, whose mother and father suffered bouts of depression that would hospitalize them frequently. Both sides of the family have instances of severe depression among their aunts and uncles.

You grow up thinking it will affect you eventually. It is hard to survive that type of stigma. Every time something happens and people say "you're crazy" or 'you are insane' it would get this person upset even knowing that it is just a figure of speech. 

Eventually you grow older and as events occur you find things harder to handle but all the time at the back of your mind you wonder if you're normal. If the struggles you're facing are harder because you are not normal. What is normal anyway?

There is no right answer to this problem and often people don't notice the signs until it is far too late. I wish people would not just dismiss these very real problems with "they should get stronger". It is never that easy.

Scot

kitarad said:

Let's say I know someone, okay for the sake of not revealing stuff to just anyone on the internet on a public forum, whose mother and father suffered bouts of depression that would hospitalize them frequently. Both sides of the family have instances of severe depression among their aunts and uncles.

You grow up thinking it will affect you eventually. It is hard to survive that type of stigma. Every time something happens and people say "you're crazy" or 'you are insane' it would get this person upset even knowing that it is just a figure of speech. 

Eventually you grow older and as events occur you find things harder to handle but all the time at the back you mind you wonder if you're normal. If the struggles you're facing are harder because you are not normal. What is normal anyway?

There is no right answer to this problem and often people don't notice the signs until it is far too late. I wish people would not just dismiss these very real problems with "they should get stronger". It is never that easy.

As you get older life does not get easier, so you could certainly end up thinking you are becoming depressed. As you say there is no right answer, it is very hard to judge yourself, it is easy to overestimate or underestimate what you think your own traits are. My advice would be to seek help early, as it is not going to get easier as time goes on to take corrective action. And If the docs say your are fine, that's a bonus right?

Genetics seems to play a part in how we process events which can lead to depression, but I don't think this is cut and dry. It may be that living in an environment where depressive behaviour seems "normal" especially when a child may result in more readiness to adopt that behaviour.

I think the best bet here is to rely on what you think and the docs think, rather than trying to second guess such factors. As with any mental health issue that's an awfully lot easier said than done.

kitarad

That Smedley video was very revealing. It is quite a feat what he has accomplished with that burden he is carrying. His advice on sleep is very good.

cameltosis

Just finished watching that presentation from Smedley, very interesting. Its impressive to see what he's done whilst suffering, that takes incredible strength and determination to keep going.

Still, it really annoys me when he says "this is not a war you can win". That's wrong. You can win. You can beat the illness. You won't become immune, you may get depression again in the future, but you can beat it and become mentally healthy.

But, i think his point of view is simply a product of the american healthcare system. Things are different here in the UK (though, admittedly things are still pretty shit on the mental health side of things).

From my understanding, there are three general levels of treatment / getting better:

1) Coping - Anti-depressants

This is all about learning to cope with depression. Most people with mental health issues develop their own ways of coping with it, often in unhealthy ways. Comfort eating, self medicating with alcohol or drugs, porn addiction, excessive gaming etc. Anti-depressants should only be used if the person is really struggling to cope with depression, they don't actually do anything to help you get better.

2) Treatment - Therapy

You can really only get better if you confront the causes of depression, and there is always a cause. The causes will be wildly different from person to person. It might be something really bad, like abuse or death of a loved one. It might be something other people consider normal, like a breakup, or losing your job, or someone making fun of you, or just the general stress of day to day life. Whatever the cause, it's made you feel like shit, and instead of being able to process those negative emotions, they've become stuck within you, they feel traumatic.

You need therapy (or a good friend, or supportive parent or partner) to help root out the cause and process it properly so you can move on. This is a really hard thing to do, which is why it's best done with a trained professional, but not everyone can afford to do so. If you don't confront the cause and process it, then it'll remain stuck within you, and your depression will stick around to help prevent those traumatic feelings from rising up again.

3) Maintenence - Sleep, exercise, diet, routine

This is really just good advice for everyone, regardless of mental health issues, but maintaining a healthy routine and lifestyle will give you that extra energy and positivity in day to day life to help prevent you slipping back into problems. If you haven't confronted the cause, if you still have depression, then this is really hard to do and you will fail (as smed himself acknowledges), but if you combine it with the therapy then you'll end up building confidence and emotional resilience so that you will eventually be cured.

AlBQuirky

cameltosis said:

Just finished watching that presentation from Smedley, very interesting. Its impressive to see what he's done whilst suffering, that takes incredible strength and determination to keep going.

Still, it really annoys me when he says "this is not a war you can win". That's wrong. You can win. You can beat the illness. You won't become immune, you may get depression again in the future, but you can beat it and become mentally healthy.

But, i think his point of view is simply a product of the american healthcare system. Things are different here in the UK (though, admittedly things are still pretty shit on the mental health side of things).

From my understanding, there are three general levels of treatment / getting better:

1) Coping - Anti-depressants

This is all about learning to cope with depression. Most people with mental health issues develop their own ways of coping with it, often in unhealthy ways. Comfort eating, self medicating with alcohol or drugs, porn addiction, excessive gaming etc. Anti-depressants should only be used if the person is really struggling to cope with depression, they don't actually do anything to help you get better.

2) Treatment - Therapy

You can really only get better if you confront the causes of depression, and there is always a cause. The causes will be wildly different from person to person. It might be something really bad, like abuse or death of a loved one. It might be something other people consider normal, like a breakup, or losing your job, or someone making fun of you, or just the general stress of day to day life. Whatever the cause, it's made you feel like shit, and instead of being able to process those negative emotions, they've become stuck within you, they feel traumatic.

You need therapy (or a good friend, or supportive parent or partner) to help root out the cause and process it properly so you can move on. This is a really hard thing to do, which is why it's best done with a trained professional, but not everyone can afford to do so. If you don't confront the cause and process it, then it'll remain stuck within you, and your depression will stick around to help prevent those traumatic feelings from rising up again.

3) Maintenence - Sleep, exercise, diet, routine

This is really just good advice for everyone, regardless of mental health issues, but maintaining a healthy routine and lifestyle will give you that extra energy and positivity in day to day life to help prevent you slipping back into problems. If you haven't confronted the cause, if you still have depression, then this is really hard to do and you will fail (as smed himself acknowledges), but if you combine it with the therapy then you'll end up building confidence and emotional resilience so that you will eventually be cured.

And yet... No Cure.

Theocritus

What's John Smedley got to be depressed about? He has probably made a few million dollars in the industry by just talking.

laserit

Theocritus said:

What's John Smedley got to be depressed about? He has probably made a few million dollars in the industry by just talking.

There is an old saying:

"Money doesn't buy you happiness"

Neither does fame apparently

kitarad

laserit said:

Theocritus said:

What's John Smedley got to be depressed about? He has probably made a few million dollars in the industry by just talking.

There is an old saying:

"Money doesn't buy you happiness"

Neither does fame apparently

Look at Howard Hughes did he live a happy life? All that money....

laserit

kitarad said:

laserit said:

Theocritus said:

What's John Smedley got to be depressed about? He has probably made a few million dollars in the industry by just talking.

There is an old saying:

"Money doesn't buy you happiness"

Neither does fame apparently

Look at Howard Hughes did he live a happy life? All that money....

I remember when I was a kid and Howard was holed up in the Bayshore Inn here in Vanvouver. Thats when he had the really long hair and long finger nails.

Iselin

AlBQuirky said:

cameltosis said:

Just finished watching that presentation from Smedley, very interesting. Its impressive to see what he's done whilst suffering, that takes incredible strength and determination to keep going.

Still, it really annoys me when he says "this is not a war you can win". That's wrong. You can win. You can beat the illness. You won't become immune, you may get depression again in the future, but you can beat it and become mentally healthy.

But, i think his point of view is simply a product of the american healthcare system. Things are different here in the UK (though, admittedly things are still pretty shit on the mental health side of things).

From my understanding, there are three general levels of treatment / getting better:

1) Coping - Anti-depressants

This is all about learning to cope with depression. Most people with mental health issues develop their own ways of coping with it, often in unhealthy ways. Comfort eating, self medicating with alcohol or drugs, porn addiction, excessive gaming etc. Anti-depressants should only be used if the person is really struggling to cope with depression, they don't actually do anything to help you get better.

2) Treatment - Therapy

You can really only get better if you confront the causes of depression, and there is always a cause. The causes will be wildly different from person to person. It might be something really bad, like abuse or death of a loved one. It might be something other people consider normal, like a breakup, or losing your job, or someone making fun of you, or just the general stress of day to day life. Whatever the cause, it's made you feel like shit, and instead of being able to process those negative emotions, they've become stuck within you, they feel traumatic.

You need therapy (or a good friend, or supportive parent or partner) to help root out the cause and process it properly so you can move on. This is a really hard thing to do, which is why it's best done with a trained professional, but not everyone can afford to do so. If you don't confront the cause and process it, then it'll remain stuck within you, and your depression will stick around to help prevent those traumatic feelings from rising up again.

3) Maintenence - Sleep, exercise, diet, routine

This is really just good advice for everyone, regardless of mental health issues, but maintaining a healthy routine and lifestyle will give you that extra energy and positivity in day to day life to help prevent you slipping back into problems. If you haven't confronted the cause, if you still have depression, then this is really hard to do and you will fail (as smed himself acknowledges), but if you combine it with the therapy then you'll end up building confidence and emotional resilience so that you will eventually be cured.

And yet... No Cure.

There are at least 7 or 8 different types of clinical depression that impair normal function. A couple of those (like perinatal, and situational) are transient and do go away permanently over time.

Persistent (aka chronic), bipolar and others are not curable. They're more like diabetes and can only be managed or lessened with therapy, drugs and lifestyle but they're with you for life.

I've managed mine for more than 40 years and was able to do a high pressure, long hours job for 30 of those years until I retired. Drugs, exercize and the occasional leave of absence when I could take one helped me manage that.

Now that I'm retired I need much less management of it partly because of less stressors in my life but also because you do get used to living with it.

MargaretLacy

Thanks for the articles. I'm very interested right now on the topic of depression in the games industry. I've found a few more articles, one of them from online mental health counseling, check them out too if you have a minute:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-10-08-normalizing-depression-in-the-games-industry
https://drmental.org/7cupsoftea-review
https://startuparound.com/read/1602102099.4281073/Successful-game-industry-pros-talk-about-their-struggles-with-depression

Wizardry

I have been around long time and seen all walks of life,literally every type of person there is I have been around.
HOW..WHY?

Well I was a very outgoing person and played pretty much every sport under the sun and had a lot of friends.On top of that I had/have a LOT of hobbies,gaming was VERY minimal in my life the first 30 years.It all just adds up to seeing a LOT of different people.Then to boot I have myself and where I have been all through the various decades from feeling invincible to not so good.

Where am I going with this,well I am sort of a deep thought person,I try to analyze everything and pay attention to everything people say either to me with me or listening to others converse.I am not just analyzing convos but I also pay attention to the health of people around me.

I have an angle on the whole idea that maybe some already share idk but I just thought I would share my thoughts on mental illness.Getting long winded ..lol but I have to explain where I am coming from with this angle.

I feel mental illness is not really about the surroundings,yes it is but only mildly  but has more to do with an actual overall body wellness.What I am saying is that when people suffer from mental illness they are likely in trouble health wise and may or may not realize ...yet.I am not talking mental health wise but internally...physically.

Obviously to have a full proof opinion you would need to fully document at least a million patients but I can only base my opinion on what I have seen and myself.I feel the medical condition of mental illness is a LAZY diagnosis by doctors and an EASY one to administer.BTW i have dealt with a shit ton of doctors from all corners because when I went through a near death experience including a heart attack I had doctors badly diagnose me with all sorts of ideas.I began calling most of them quacks as well dealing with a women friend who tried to commit suicide.

I can't start talking about my last 60 years of seeing doctors and how people have literally went from PERFECT health into a mental illness stage,i can only tell you that I have SEEN IT and many times.So if someone is suffering or feel like they have mental illness,i would be more concerned there is an inner health issue that could be leading to death very soon.I hope people take what I said seriously because I do care about people and I am not just randomly rambling off some opinion.

Iselin

AlBQuirky

Iselin said:

AlBQuirky said:

cameltosis said:

Just finished watching that presentation from Smedley, very interesting. Its impressive to see what he's done whilst suffering, that takes incredible strength and determination to keep going.

Still, it really annoys me when he says "this is not a war you can win". That's wrong. You can win. You can beat the illness. You won't become immune, you may get depression again in the future, but you can beat it and become mentally healthy.

But, i think his point of view is simply a product of the american healthcare system. Things are different here in the UK (though, admittedly things are still pretty shit on the mental health side of things).

From my understanding, there are three general levels of treatment / getting better:

1) Coping - Anti-depressants

This is all about learning to cope with depression. Most people with mental health issues develop their own ways of coping with it, often in unhealthy ways. Comfort eating, self medicating with alcohol or drugs, porn addiction, excessive gaming etc. Anti-depressants should only be used if the person is really struggling to cope with depression, they don't actually do anything to help you get better.

2) Treatment - Therapy

You can really only get better if you confront the causes of depression, and there is always a cause. The causes will be wildly different from person to person. It might be something really bad, like abuse or death of a loved one. It might be something other people consider normal, like a breakup, or losing your job, or someone making fun of you, or just the general stress of day to day life. Whatever the cause, it's made you feel like shit, and instead of being able to process those negative emotions, they've become stuck within you, they feel traumatic.

You need therapy (or a good friend, or supportive parent or partner) to help root out the cause and process it properly so you can move on. This is a really hard thing to do, which is why it's best done with a trained professional, but not everyone can afford to do so. If you don't confront the cause and process it, then it'll remain stuck within you, and your depression will stick around to help prevent those traumatic feelings from rising up again.

3) Maintenence - Sleep, exercise, diet, routine

This is really just good advice for everyone, regardless of mental health issues, but maintaining a healthy routine and lifestyle will give you that extra energy and positivity in day to day life to help prevent you slipping back into problems. If you haven't confronted the cause, if you still have depression, then this is really hard to do and you will fail (as smed himself acknowledges), but if you combine it with the therapy then you'll end up building confidence and emotional resilience so that you will eventually be cured.

And yet... No Cure.

There are at least 7 or 8 different types of clinical depression that impair normal function. A couple of those (like perinatal, and situational) are transient and do go away permanently over time.

Persistent (aka chronic), bipolar and others are not curable. They're more like diabetes and can only be managed or lessened with therapy, drugs and lifestyle but they're with you for life.

I've managed mine for more than 40 years and was able to do a high pressure, long hours job for 30 of those years until I retired. Drugs, exercize and the occasional leave of absence when I could take one helped me manage that.

Now that I'm retired I need much less management of it partly because of less stressors in my life but also because you do get used to living with it.

Good info and thanks for the clarification

Scot

MargaretLacy said:

Thanks for the articles. I'm very interested right now on the topic of depression in the games industry. I've found a few more articles, one of them from online mental health counseling, check them out too if you have a minute:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-10-08-normalizing-depression-in-the-games-industry
https://drmental.org/7cupsoftea-review
https://startuparound.com/read/1602102099.4281073/Successful-game-industry-pros-talk-about-their-struggles-with-depression

Welcome to the forums!

AlBQuirky

Scot said:

MargaretLacy said:

Thanks for the articles. I'm very interested right now on the topic of depression in the games industry. I've found a few more articles, one of them from online mental health counseling, check them out too if you have a minute:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-10-08-normalizing-depression-in-the-games-industry
https://drmental.org/7cupsoftea-review
https://startuparound.com/read/1602102099.4281073/Successful-game-industry-pros-talk-about-their-struggles-with-depression

Welcome to the forums!

I almost flagged poor Margaret as a spammer. Then I read what her links said and visited them They actually had good info

Welcome!

Scot

AlBQuirky said:

Scot said:

MargaretLacy said:

Thanks for the articles. I'm very interested right now on the topic of depression in the games industry. I've found a few more articles, one of them from online mental health counseling, check them out too if you have a minute:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-10-08-normalizing-depression-in-the-games-industry
https://drmental.org/7cupsoftea-review
https://startuparound.com/read/1602102099.4281073/Successful-game-industry-pros-talk-about-their-struggles-with-depression

Welcome to the forums!

I almost flagged poor Margaret as a spammer. Then I read what her links said and visited them They actually had good info

Welcome!

It can be very difficult, the bots seem more human every year, a link in a first post is suggestive, multiple links even more so. Apologies to Margaret, but I still won't be convinced she is human until we see more posts from her. It does annoy me that we have to be thinking about this when welcoming people.

cheyane

Theocritus said:

What's John Smedley got to be depressed about? He has probably made a few million dollars in the industry by just talking.

Goodness how can the hate you have for Smedley make you blind to what depression is.

Amathe

laserit said:

kitarad said:

laserit said:

Theocritus said:

What's John Smedley got to be depressed about? He has probably made a few million dollars in the industry by just talking.

There is an old saying:

"Money doesn't buy you happiness"

Neither does fame apparently

Look at Howard Hughes did he live a happy life? All that money....

I remember when I was a kid and Howard was holed up in the Bayshore Inn here in Vanvouver. Thats when he had the really long hair and long finger nails.

A group called Kansas wrote a song (a sad one) about Hughes and his self-isolarion, called Closet Chronicles. Here is an excerpt:

Once carried through the current, and being swept away
The king is in his closet, he's hiding from today
And though he owns all fortunes, this room is where he'll stay
And his world is filled with darkness, turning grey

Gazing out the window of the forty-second floor
He is separate from all others, no one knocks upon his door
And it might as well be raining, 'cause the sunlight hurts his eyes
And his ears will never hear the children's cries

cameltosis

OG_Zorvan said:

cameltosis said:

So, I've read a few of these articles and watched a few talks about depression in the games industry, gamesindustry.biz had a good one recently.

I've also suffered from depression myself since about 2007 (and anxiety for the last couple of years), though i've learned that the causes date back to my childhood in the mid 90s. Luckily, I've been able to get some great help over the last 2 years, so im getting better, though i've still got some way to go.

I've found myself quite annoyed with these talks and articles for a number of reasons. First, they don't seem to talk about what depression is, which is a huge oversight in my opinion. Second, they only seem to talk about managing depression, not curing it, and the way to manage it always has a very american approach: drugs + routine. If you really want to give people with mental health issues hope for the future, you damn well better talk about getting better and getting cured! There's nothing worse than someone telling you "tough shit, you got this for life".

Still, its good that some devs are opening up about it, its a positive step.

I'm happy to talk further about my own experiences / knowledge if anyone wants to ask, but happy to leave it here for now.

My own therapist and counselors and even my psych have all made it clear there is no cure. There is management and coping and living with it, but you will never be "cured". I prefer that knowledge over being fed false hope of "cures" that don't exists.

Interesting, that's the complete opposite of what we're told here in the UK!

Whilst there is no "one-size-fits-all" cure, as long as the cause of the depression is psychological then you can be cured through psychological treatment. It may be very difficult and you are unlikely to be able to do it by yourself, but it can be done. Doesn't mean you won't slip into depression again in the future, it isn't immunity, but you can definitely be cured. I've certainly met plenty of people for whom this is the case and this is the guidance from therapists, psychologists and medical doctors.

If the cause is physical, that's a completely different matter and will totally depend on the specifics of the physical cause and the ability of medical science to fix it. The majority of depression, however, is not brought on by physical issues (and nor is mine) and so I haven't really done much research into this side of things nor met anyone who has depression due to physical causes.

Scot

I have to say that I have great reservations about the "science" of psychology. The above couple of posts highlight why I have that concern. In my eyes you are better of talking to your GP than wanting to see a therapist straight away. The conditions are real, but psychology is very new as a science. By real I mean real in their effects, I don't think we understand the mind enough to say more than that.

Sometimes there are medical reasons for a psychological ailment. Here I feel we are on safer ground simply because medicine has a far better track record in my eyes. There may be genetic predispositions if so these could be tackled even have their genes switched of in the future. My knowledge here is not that sound, there may already be drugs that can do this?

I feel quite certain though that medicine will not eventually have an answer to every mental health issue, for that we are going to have to wait for psychology to become a better science. There lies my concern about the current political drive about "solving" mental health issues in society. Our knowledge of what we are dealing with is just not up to being able to do that.

Kyleran

cameltosis said:

OG_Zorvan said:

cameltosis said:

So, I've read a few of these articles and watched a few talks about depression in the games industry, gamesindustry.biz had a good one recently.

I've also suffered from depression myself since about 2007 (and anxiety for the last couple of years), though i've learned that the causes date back to my childhood in the mid 90s. Luckily, I've been able to get some great help over the last 2 years, so im getting better, though i've still got some way to go.

I've found myself quite annoyed with these talks and articles for a number of reasons. First, they don't seem to talk about what depression is, which is a huge oversight in my opinion. Second, they only seem to talk about managing depression, not curing it, and the way to manage it always has a very american approach: drugs + routine. If you really want to give people with mental health issues hope for the future, you damn well better talk about getting better and getting cured! There's nothing worse than someone telling you "tough shit, you got this for life".

Still, its good that some devs are opening up about it, its a positive step.

I'm happy to talk further about my own experiences / knowledge if anyone wants to ask, but happy to leave it here for now.

My own therapist and counselors and even my psych have all made it clear there is no cure. There is management and coping and living with it, but you will never be "cured". I prefer that knowledge over being fed false hope of "cures" that don't exists.

Interesting, that's the complete opposite of what we're told here in the UK!

Whilst there is no "one-size-fits-all" cure, as long as the cause of the depression is psychological then you can be cured through psychological treatment. It may be very difficult and you are unlikely to be able to do it by yourself, but it can be done. Doesn't mean you won't slip into depression again in the future, it isn't immunity, but you can definitely be cured. I've certainly met plenty of people for whom this is the case and this is the guidance from therapists, psychologists and medical doctors.

If the cause is physical, that's a completely different matter and will totally depend on the specifics of the physical cause and the ability of medical science to fix it. The majority of depression, however, is not brought on by physical issues (and nor is mine) and so I haven't really done much research into this side of things nor met anyone who has depression due to physical causes.

Your doctors are probably lying to you. That's OK, they do so here in the states as well. (then prescribe you a pill)

From my way of thinking, "cured" is a permanent condition, being able to relaspse is no different really than addiction or anxiety which are forever managed throughout one's life but never  totally cured.