Nvidia announces RTX 3060 for $330 in late February, also RTX 3000 series laptop GPUs

Quizzical

The GeForce RTX 3060 will be rated at 13 TFLOPS, or a little less than 2/3 that of the RTX 3070.  Interestingly, though, it will include 12 GB of GDDR6 memory, as compared to 8 GB on the RTX 3070.

That would lend some credibility to the rumors that Nvidia is going to launch increased memory versions of the higher end cards, such as a 16 GB version of the RTX 3070.  That wasn't announced today, though.  It probably would be easy for Nvidia to offer an increased memory version of the RTX 3070.  For the RTX 3080, however, it would be harder, as GDDR6X memory still isn't in full production, so very limited quantities of it are available.

Nvidia also announced laptop versions of the RTX 3060, 3070, and 3080.  The top one will have 16 GB of memory, which means it's probably a laptop version of the desktop RTX 3070, not the 3080.  The GA102 die has a 384-bit memory bus, and 16 GB is a power of 2, so it probably means a 256-bit memory bus.

Ridelynn

In terms of TF, which is just as arbitrary as anything else I suppose, but let’s you glean relative performance across this given generation

3060 — 13.0
3060 Ti — 16.2
3070 — 20.4
3080 — 30.0
3090 — 36.0

I suppose the TLDR there is it looks about like the delta between the 3060 and Ti is about the same as between the 60 Ti and 70

Cuddleheart

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

Quizzical

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

A lot of cryptocurrency mining algorithms would require only trivial amounts of memory.  For Bitcoin, for example, if a GPU had only 1 MB more than the GPU driver requires for its own internal use, that would be fine.  But when an algorithm requires only trivial amounts of memory, you can make an ASIC with enough cache to keep everything on chip and not have to go to off-chip memory.

Ethereum is the big one pushing miners to buy up GPUs.  Ethereum requires a lot of memory, and the exact size that it requires slowly increases with time.  As such, today, it requires just over 4 GB of memory.  If a GPU has exactly 4 GB of memory, then that's no longer interesting to Ethereum miners.  But for Ethereum mining purposes, the difference between 6 GB and 16 GB won't matter for at least several years, and likely never if they manage to convert it to proof of stake.

Ridelynn

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

Forgrimm

So much for mid-range prices: https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3060-custom-model-prices-unveiled-asus-msi-zotac-graphics-cards/

• MSI RTX 3060 Gaming X Trio $514.99
• MSI RTX 3060 VentusX2 $484.99
• Zotac RTX 3060 Gaming $499.99
• Asus RTX 3060 ROG Strix $499.99
• Asus RTX 3060 TUF Gaming $489.99

dragonlee66

I will use my 1060 forever before I pay those prices lol

Slapshot1188

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Slapshot1188

remsleep said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Profit driven is what is destroying humanity as a whole - purely looking at profits without taking into account impact on environment, health and lifestyle and well being of humanity is a recipe for disaster.

What good are profits when you destroy your own planet and ability for anyone to survive?

As long as we are "profits > all else" - we are 100% fucked

In the far future (if humans survive) - the profit "at any cost" will be looked the same way we look at slavery today - ethically and morally wrong.

OK thanks for the philosophic diatribe.   Sorry, I don't see videogamers vs miners as a decision that will affect the future of human survivability.

Now does someone have a serious answer?

Ridelynn

Slapshot1188 said:

...

Now does someone have a serious answer?

Sure, it's marketing.

Gamers are a big market, who are willing to pay high margins, and are very vocal with a lot of influencers and brand loyalty.

Miners are also a big market. They have no brand loyalty, and apart from their buying power, are relatively silent. SO long as their coin is riding high, they don't care about value or aesthetics or anything else - they just really care about hash rate / electric costs vs coin value, and if the ROI is there, they buy, no matter what the price.

So you market to the gamers, and you put out plenty of statements to support your vocal market, but you are right, you don't really care who buys the cards so long as they sell, and you certainly don't to anything to harm or really deter either of those markets.

Vrika

Slapshot1188 said:

remsleep said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Profit driven is what is destroying humanity as a whole - purely looking at profits without taking into account impact on environment, health and lifestyle and well being of humanity is a recipe for disaster.

What good are profits when you destroy your own planet and ability for anyone to survive?

As long as we are "profits > all else" - we are 100% fucked

In the far future (if humans survive) - the profit "at any cost" will be looked the same way we look at slavery today - ethically and morally wrong.

OK thanks for the philosophic diatribe.   Sorry, I don't see videogamers vs miners as a decision that will affect the future of human survivability.

Now does someone have a serious answer?

Crypto miners don't offer a stable market. GPU manufacturers are really happy to rake in the profits when crypto miners buy their cards, but their long term business strategy must rely on other markets because crypto boom could end at any time.

laserit

remsleep said:

Slapshot1188 said:

remsleep said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Profit driven is what is destroying humanity as a whole - purely looking at profits without taking into account impact on environment, health and lifestyle and well being of humanity is a recipe for disaster.

What good are profits when you destroy your own planet and ability for anyone to survive?

As long as we are "profits > all else" - we are 100% fucked

In the far future (if humans survive) - the profit "at any cost" will be looked the same way we look at slavery today - ethically and morally wrong.

OK thanks for the philosophic diatribe.   Sorry, I don't see videogamers vs miners as a decision that will affect the future of human survivability.

Now does someone have a serious answer?

Every action today has consequences tomorrow - us humans are pretty terrible at understanding the future consequence of our actions - so it's completely normal for us to have difficulty seeing future outcomes.

Hopefully we'll give birth to strong AI that can self-improve and put humanity back on the right track, as we are seemingly incapable of doing it ourselves. 

I'm with Carl Sagan

The odds are much against us when it comes to surviving ourselves.

Nanfoodle

Forgrimm said:

So much for mid-range prices: https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3060-custom-model-prices-unveiled-asus-msi-zotac-graphics-cards/

• MSI RTX 3060 Gaming X Trio $514.99
• MSI RTX 3060 VentusX2 $484.99
• Zotac RTX 3060 Gaming $499.99
• Asus RTX 3060 ROG Strix $499.99
• Asus RTX 3060 TUF Gaming $489.99

Ya Im happy with my 2060 super. I will wait for 2nd and 3rd gen of the 30 series. 

Slapshot1188

Vrika said:

Slapshot1188 said:

remsleep said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Profit driven is what is destroying humanity as a whole - purely looking at profits without taking into account impact on environment, health and lifestyle and well being of humanity is a recipe for disaster.

What good are profits when you destroy your own planet and ability for anyone to survive?

As long as we are "profits > all else" - we are 100% fucked

In the far future (if humans survive) - the profit "at any cost" will be looked the same way we look at slavery today - ethically and morally wrong.

OK thanks for the philosophic diatribe.   Sorry, I don't see videogamers vs miners as a decision that will affect the future of human survivability.

Now does someone have a serious answer?

Crypto miners don't offer a stable market. GPU manufacturers are really happy to rake in the profits when crypto miners buy their cards, but their long term business strategy must rely on other markets because crypto boom could end at any time.

See that's what I would think, but being a consumer of the gaming market I know that we will always go chasing that +10% performance.  When the miners buy the stock it doesn't make us say 'I'm never buying NVIDIA again!", it make is say "Gee that's just $200 over list price let me get it".  

I wonder what their margins are for these new expanded memory cards and if they are > than the original ones.  If so, that would make rational sense to me.  

Quizzical

remsleep said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Profit driven is what is destroying humanity as a whole - purely looking at profits without taking into account impact on environment, health and lifestyle and well being of humanity is a recipe for disaster.

What good are profits when you destroy your own planet and ability for anyone to survive?

As long as we are "profits > all else" - we are 100% fucked

In the far future (if humans survive) - the profit "at any cost" will be looked the same way we look at slavery today - ethically and morally wrong.

Mandating that everyone must ignore profits and just do what the central planners say has repeatedly led to the literal death by starvation of millions.  Focusing purely on profits had its flaws of ignoring externalities and public goods, but it sure beats ignoring profits entirely.

Tiller

What happened to Nvidia making a mining specific card? Was this  just a rumor?

Quizzical

Slapshot1188 said:

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Board partners (MSI, Gigabyte, Sapphire, EVGA, etc.) typically don't care who buys the cards unless it affects return rates.  That's especially true of board partners who deal with both AMD and Nvidia GPUs, as if gamers buy 90% Nvidia one generation and 90% AMD the next, that's not their problem.

I think that AMD and Nvidia genuinely would prefer that their cards go to gamers rather than miners if they get the same amount of revenue either way.  Suppose in the extreme case that miners buy all of company A's cards and gamers buy all of company B's, and that this continues for several years.  And then the mining bubble bursts.  At that point, nearly all gamers are using company B's cards, so game developers put huge amounts of work into optimizing for company B's cards but don't care if their game works well on company A's.  Meanwhile, lots of used company A cards show up for sale after having spent years mining around the clock, and people who buy the cards often find that their reliability isn't great--and then blame company A.  If it doesn't affect your revenue, would you rather be company A or B?

Quizzical

Tiller said:

What happened to Nvidia making a mining specific card? Was this  just a rumor?

See this thread:

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/492967/nvidia-announces-new-cmp-hx-series-of-mining-cards

I don't think the cards are out yet, but even once they are, miners will buy all of the mining cards and then try to buy all of the gaming cards with over 4 GB of memory, too.

Quizzical

Torval said:

Quizzical said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ridelynn said:

Cuddleheart said:

Is it possible that they put the extra memory on there to appeal to crypto miners?  Maybe take some of the demand off their lower yield chips?  I dunno...

I think it's more likely they put the extra memory on there to deter miners - it will add extra cost that will trash mining ROI, but gamers can always (attempt to) justify it as needed for higher resolution textures (despite the fact the card won't have the power to really ever drive it)

But why would they care who is buying their cards?  As a profit seeking company would they not want to sell as many cards as possible at the highest price possible?

Board partners (MSI, Gigabyte, Sapphire, EVGA, etc.) typically don't care who buys the cards unless it affects return rates.  That's especially true of board partners who deal with both AMD and Nvidia GPUs, as if gamers buy 90% Nvidia one generation and 90% AMD the next, that's not their problem.

I think that AMD and Nvidia genuinely would prefer that their cards go to gamers rather than miners if they get the same amount of revenue either way.  Suppose in the extreme case that miners buy all of company A's cards and gamers buy all of company B's, and that this continues for several years.  And then the mining bubble bursts.  At that point, nearly all gamers are using company B's cards, so game developers put huge amounts of work into optimizing for company B's cards but don't care if their game works well on company A's.  Meanwhile, lots of used company A cards show up for sale after having spent years mining around the clock, and people who buy the cards often find that their reliability isn't great--and then blame company A.  If it doesn't affect your revenue, would you rather be company A or B?

They should care though because those vendors also build motherboards, power supplies, cases, and other components and peripherals that gamers aren't buying. Miners certainly aren't buying the expensive home components. They're buying the cheapest part that they can get by with. It seems logical this will start to affect the entire PC component/peripheral industry.

Right now gamers and home builders can't buy from company A or B. They're having to go route C, which is premades and consoles. That can't be good for the overall health of their entire market ecosystem. Eventually something has to give doesn't it?

That is a good point, but the incentives differ quite a bit by board partner.  As best as I can tell, PowerColor makes video cards and that's it.  Zotac makes video cards and very small form factor (non-gaming) premades.  Jaton makes very old video cards that they wish the miners would buy.  PNY dabbles in SSDs and memory, but mostly makes consumer video cards and professional video cards.  Asus makes motherboards (and a lot of other products), but they also make laptops and prebuilt desktops that they wouldn't mind gamers buying.

Ridelynn

Torval said:

...

Right now gamers and home builders can't buy from company A or B. They're having to go route C, which is premades and consoles. That can't be good for the overall health of their entire market ecosystem. Eventually something has to give doesn't it?

Nope. Consoles are in just as bad a condition - scalpers there, but extremely limited availability.

Boutique builders are 60+ days out on builds, they are struggling as well, and even many of the bigger builders (Dell, etc) are several weeks out on builds.

Does something have to give? Hmm... that's an interesting question. 

On one hand - the supply is all it's going to be for some time. Every fab that's capable is at capacity, and it takes a long time to get a new one online. So we aren't going to magically see more production happen, at least in the near term. 

The gaming industry is one that has revolved around an upgrade cycle: Newer hardware =  newer tech = fancier games = newer hardware. This certainly threatens that upgrade cycle... if people can't get the newer hardware, and just settle with what they have, what happens? I would say, we have seen the answer to this question when we had a 9 year long console generation, and most every game was stuck at DX9 for a really long time. It didn't kill the industry, but we didn't really move forward much either.

And mining is one of those bubble industries, or at least it has been so far. When it's high, it sucks up everything like a parasite and there is no way to possibly produce enough when the profit potential is "infinite", and when it's low, the floods the market with used and abused second hand gear. 

Add in external influences: COVID, economies and personal welfare, etc. That really throws a curve ball at this question.

So, does anything have to change? In the near term, I think the answer is no. I don't see any change in the next 5-6 months, at least barring the crypto bubble bursting again or something going really whacky with exports.

I think looking longer term, you are going to see developers (AMD, etc) looking to diversify their fab requirements - everyone getting log jammed on TSMC 7nm and Samsung 8nm hasn't been great for anyone. And I think fabs are struggling to get online as fast as they can, but that process takes time and money.

There will continue to be anti-scalper and anti-bulk buyer blowback, but all of that will only exist so long as a supply problem exists: as soon as some availability gets out there, everyone will forget about it being a problem; at least until the next time it pops up. SO in short, I don't think manufacturers or retailers will change much, if anything, about how they are selling their products.

John Carmack has an interesting answer for the problem: auctions run by OEMs and first party retailers, rather than third parties via ebay. I don't know that that would necessarily fix anything, nor that you could entice those parties into the technical hassles of running an auction site, but it's an interesting conversation starter. I had high hopes for the EVGA queuing system, not perfect, but a step in the proper direction, but it appears they have abandoned it, or at least ignored it into obsolescence.

Asm0deus

Frankly I am rocking a gtx 760 with my 5800x....simply because the prices are stupid...they have actually went up sadly here in Canada and add in you have to start botting to actually be able to get a 3xxx gpu unless you live nearby a big tech store and even then you have to be willing to camp out.........

This has led me to actually look at the used market for a gpu which is not something I would usually entertain and yikes even the prices of old gpu are ridiculous right now even old 1060 6gb peeps are asking for stupid inflated prices......I mean I am not paying like CDN$400 for a used 1060........

Quizzical

Ridelynn said:

Nope. Consoles are in just as bad a condition - scalpers there, but extremely limited availability.

At least consoles are actually getting to gamers, rather than miners buying them all.