I would say that survival games fit the bill quite nicely, especially a quality one like Conan. Not completely, but much more then any MMORPG out there. And despite many here scoffing at the survival genre I think its an excellent addition to gaming as a whole and a somewhat continuation of the dying MMORPG genre.
I don't like Exiles (naturally, as an AoC player) since its core is the work which was done for AoC, and should be in there, instead of in a different game just because of Funcom liked the idea of double dipping
With my personal gripe aside, I doubt it'd be a fit.
Survivals also have character building and progression, and they're maybe even more grindy than most MMORPGs - which are the exact two things (character building and grind) he wants to skip.
Sure, he'd be right at the "very endgame" after login, but as a fodder in a loincloth, and his aim is "equal footing" (T3 vs T1 then pvp is a joke, as he said).
Makes the debate rather strange then, considering you don't enjoy any of the long term successful MMO's, and even the few titles you have played, you admittedly don't play for long... I'm having a hard time understanding why you're playing the role of "get off my lawn" when you never lived in the house to begin with...
I mean, advocate for your style of play all you want, but telling me I don't need to be playing MMO's because they're not designed for me, when I play them more than you is kind of ironic don't you think?
I'm not trying to attack you, although there have been no shortage of shots taken at me, but I feel like the debate has been rather disingenuous on your side.
Just a sidenote, since quality vs popularity/ "success" could lead to a lengthy off-topic (imo popular just means the devs set the bar of lowest common denominator too low), so just to make it clear: you do know there are/were literally dozens of MMORPGs out there, right?
"even the few titles you have played" - I'm fairly certain I've played almost everything launched in the west, and many eastern-only as well during the past twenty-something years since the first MUDs.
"you don't enjoy any of the long term successful MMO's", which are, let me check again, WoW, ESO, GW2 and EQ2, right?
Yep, I didn't particularly enjoyed those (though in GW2 I did spent 10+ months scattered through the years).
So, that makes me totally clueless and irrelevant regarding MMORPGs. I see. How dare I not enjoy those long term, successful MMOs...
(I believe a slow clap emote would be appropriate here)
About the lawn issue: OP made some weird statements about streamlining, that's what most of us argued with.
You added your notions from the endgame point-of-view but with some interesting twists, then during the discussions slowly turned out you ain't really one, when a few of us pointed out maybe your issues are rooted in the genre itself. That's not "get off the lawn", that's just the reality... that's why you have hard time to find your fun in there, not because of a few posters say so, but because of MMORPGs are built a different way.
And for the "attacks" shot at you, I believe I was only against streamlining. Hell, since option is king I'd even support you if you'd seek: "character boost ain't enough, give me a full I win the game boost option so I could jump at the very endgame", since why not, what do I care, more options the better.
But you didn't, you were on streamlining the content as a solution.
Nevertheless, I believe I leave you to it, my opinion is worthless anyway since I don't enjoy those successful MMOs
I think there has to be an interest in how a game is structured. Meaning if you enjoy slowly playing and relishing the journey you're not spending your time looking at how much time and energy you might need to put in to get somewhere. That part happens naturally as you play. I feel this point seems to be lost when a person is looking at the 'grind'.
When I last played on one of their original server concepts the one where you get to experience the EQII like how it was when it was released (well not entirely but a good beginning) I didn't even notice my levels. I was in a very good guild that was all about levelling and enjoying the game together. I recall being lost for hours and hours just playing. I just naturally hit level 50 at some point and since I had so much to do like my collections and housing ( a big personal passion of mine) I was a little startled at how fast it went
If you are playing a game like it is just a chore you need to complete the time you spend will feel grating and a waste because the whole point of this type of game will be lost on you. I'm not saying you should not be playing the game with your own goals and ideas but I believe this type of game should be savoured and words like' grind', 'slog' and treadmill do not convey this. Naturally I cannot expect a person with no real appreciation of the world concept while playing to understand where I am coming from.
It is the same reason I do not understand personally why people don't want to do the quests in FFXIV properly or rush to the end game in WoW. Just as I find it unfathomable I am sure my way of playing is equally puzzling to someone else.
I remember when I first logged into Project 99 and was thinking about what I was going to do and was so excited to be able to just experience my favourite game and live in it. That is it my goal. I wanted to live in Norrath for awhile. Even if I died a lot which I often did and made negative progress I was thrilled because it felt like I was in an actual world and I was part of that world. So many games you just play you never actually inhabit it. That is the difference to me and that makes a world of difference to why the game isn't a grind or slog or treadmill. I am sure I am unable to get this across because it looks like a slogan from a publisher but that is how people who enjoy this genre feel about these games.
The more I think about it, the more I am against the idea of the whole "Why can't I just be at the end game from the start"
Well the obvious answer that most seem to overlook is "because that is the END of the game, not the Start" Duh.
Ideally, the motive by the player should be to find the game they enjoy playing, as opposed to crying that games need to be changed to suit their needs.
But with that said, I see now why Cash Shops sell level boosts and insta-end game tokens, and why I can get behind this idea that if someone wants to bypass the content of the game, they should be able to do so, at a alternate cost, ergo, real cash money.
I think however the precious raiders would have a major brain hemorrhage if I could just buy the raid rewards in the store for a few bucks, because if not for double standards like that, elitist would have no standards at all.
So.. if I am really that bitter... why I would support allowing these people to jump past me like that?
Well for me, at least in DDO, where players can buy Otto Stones to get 2 Million Exp for fast and easy leveling. It's simple, the impatient crowd that needs to bypass content and not play the game, just so they can wave their e-peen at the supposed "End Game" might as well end up being useful to me in supporting the game fiscally, because they sure are not useful to me in any other way... LOL
So I think the solution should be simply allowing people to buy Max Level Boosts, as well as Buy the Best Gear and Items in the Game, and Buy from the Store anything and everything they want, as opposed to putting any expectations on them to have to actually play the game at all.
That way, the people that want to play the game as it is, can enjoy it as it is. If there is any content they do not like but want the rewards from, like leveling, crafting, raids, dungeons, story, open world exploration, anything and everything that might be out of their reach or they simply do not enjoy that content, they can just simply bypass it with some money and still get all the rewards and other things, and be done with it.
Does anyone that wanted to streamline the game have an objection with that approach?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The more I think about it, the more I am against the idea of the whole "Why can't I just be at the end game from the start"
Well the obvious answer that most seem to overlook is "because that is the END of the game, not the Start" Duh.
Ideally, the motive by the player should be to find the game they enjoy playing, as opposed to crying that games need to be changed to suit their needs.
But with that said, I see now why Cash Shops sell level boosts and insta-end game tokens, and why I can get behind this idea that if someone wants to bypass the content of the game, they should be able to do so, at a alternate cost, ergo, real cash money.
I think however the precious raiders would have a major brain hemorrhage if I could just buy the raid rewards in the store for a few bucks, because if not for double standards like that, elitist would have no standards at all.
So.. if I am really that bitter... why I would support allowing these people to jump past me like that?
Well for me, at least in DDO, where players can buy Otto Stones to get 2 Million Exp for fast and easy leveling. It's simple, the impatient crowd that needs to bypass content and not play the game, just so they can wave their e-peen at the supposed "End Game" might as well end up being useful to me in supporting the game fiscally, because they sure are not useful to me in any other way... LOL
So I think the solution should be simply allowing people to buy Max Level Boosts, as well as Buy the Best Gear and Items in the Game, and Buy from the Store anything and everything they want, as opposed to putting any expectations on them to have to actually play the game at all.
That way, the people that want to play the game as it is, can enjoy it as it is. If there is any content they do not like but want the rewards from, like leveling, crafting, raids, dungeons, story, open world exploration, anything and everything that might be out of their reach or they simply do not enjoy that content, they can just simply bypass it with some money and still get all the rewards and other things, and be done with it.
Does anyone that wanted to streamline the game have an objection with that approach?
At a certain level, bypassing the Progression aspects (leveling, acquiring gear, increasing skills, etc) just removes the RPG from the game. You're left with a FPS or RTS game instead. If someone really wanted to play an MMORPG as a FPS or RTS game, they would probably be better off with a FPS or RTS game. Even a looter shooter or MOBA might provide them with more experiences that they seem to want.
As to your suggested solution, @Ungood, anytime there is real money involved, there will be those who will cry P2W. Now, maybe if the means to 'skip' content were based on in-game money or accomplishments, then it might avoid that criticism. Think 'alternate progression tracks', rather than 'pay to bypass'. (But APTs are more work for the development team)
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The more I think about it, the more I am against the idea of the whole "Why can't I just be at the end game from the start"
Well the obvious answer that most seem to overlook is "because that is the END of the game, not the Start" Duh.
Ideally, the motive by the player should be to find the game they enjoy playing, as opposed to crying that games need to be changed to suit their needs.
But with that said, I see now why Cash Shops sell level boosts and insta-end game tokens, and why I can get behind this idea that if someone wants to bypass the content of the game, they should be able to do so, at a alternate cost, ergo, real cash money.
I think however the precious raiders would have a major brain hemorrhage if I could just buy the raid rewards in the store for a few bucks, because if not for double standards like that, elitist would have no standards at all.
So.. if I am really that bitter... why I would support allowing these people to jump past me like that?
Well for me, at least in DDO, where players can buy Otto Stones to get 2 Million Exp for fast and easy leveling. It's simple, the impatient crowd that needs to bypass content and not play the game, just so they can wave their e-peen at the supposed "End Game" might as well end up being useful to me in supporting the game fiscally, because they sure are not useful to me in any other way... LOL
So I think the solution should be simply allowing people to buy Max Level Boosts, as well as Buy the Best Gear and Items in the Game, and Buy from the Store anything and everything they want, as opposed to putting any expectations on them to have to actually play the game at all.
That way, the people that want to play the game as it is, can enjoy it as it is. If there is any content they do not like but want the rewards from, like leveling, crafting, raids, dungeons, story, open world exploration, anything and everything that might be out of their reach or they simply do not enjoy that content, they can just simply bypass it with some money and still get all the rewards and other things, and be done with it.
Does anyone that wanted to streamline the game have an objection with that approach?
At a certain level, bypassing the Progression aspects (leveling, acquiring gear, increasing skills, etc) just removes the RPG from the game. You're left with a FPS or RTS game instead. If someone really wanted to play an MMORPG as a FPS or RTS game, they would probably be better off with a FPS or RTS game. Even a looter shooter or MOBA might provide them with more experiences that they seem to want.
As to your suggested solution, Ungood, anytime there is real money involved, there will be those who will cry P2W. Now, maybe if the means to 'skip' content were based on in-game money or accomplishments, then it might avoid that criticism. Think 'alternate progression tracks', rather than 'pay to bypass'. (But APTs are more work for the development team)
This was pretty much my Point, at some point when you just bypass enough content, it cease to be an MMO or an RPG, and becomes something else. And for those that want to bypass the content, that they would be better off looking for that something else as opposed to looking at an RPG or MMO.
With that said, yah, any time there is real money involved someone is going to cry P2W, I have long since stopped caring about those cries after my eyes were opened to how asinine people were with it, when they started to call mount skins P2W. Not Mounts, Not Mount Abilities, just a purely cosmetic skin, was called P2W. At that point the term P2W died to me, and I am pretty sure, it's mostly dead to the majority of modern gamers in general.
This is why, as opposed to saying P2W, we now have to call out specific predatory tactics, like Lootboxes.
Anyway, I was just thinking that anything you can get in game could be sold in the store.
Want Max Level? Sure we have a Button for that, just 4000 points.
Want a full set of Epic Legendary Heavy Plate Raid Armor? Again, can be yours for just 5200 points.
Want Uber Fast Best Mount in the Game? We have that available in the store for only 3800 points, now on 20% off sale.
Want that Platinum Apex God of PvP Banner Pole? Sure, only 5000 Points in the store (We are having a point sale till the end of week ya know, times to really stock up! only $49.99 for 5000 points! What a steal from our normal $59.99!)
I mean if we are going to advocate bypassing content, first, the company should make bank roll off it, giving it away for free is silly, and second, if we are going to bypass content, lets just get it done and be over it, anything and everything you just don't want to do, but want the rewards for, just sell it and be over it.
If we are going to use the mentality of the people that want to streamline content.. t does not hurt you or anyone else if they can bypass the effort to get what they want.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The more I think about it, the more I am against the idea of the whole "Why can't I just be at the end game from the start"
Well the obvious answer that most seem to overlook is "because that is the END of the game, not the Start" Duh.
Ideally, the motive by the player should be to find the game they enjoy playing, as opposed to crying that games need to be changed to suit their needs.
So I think the solution should be simply allowing people to buy Max Level Boosts, as well as Buy the Best Gear and Items in the Game, and Buy from the Store anything and everything they want, as opposed to putting any expectations on them to have to actually play the game at all.
Does anyone that wanted to streamline the game have an objection with that approach?
I don't know anyone in this thread who wants to be able to buy their way to the very end of the game. You're strawmanning their argument.
What they want to do, is bypass the parts that allow them to get to the end game content. End game doesn't start when you have maxed out gear and character progression. It starts when you can begin that content.
What you call the end game and we call the end game is very different apparently. You call the end game, once you've beaten all the content in the game and have the best gear. We call the end game, once you're ready to start the raiding / last dungeon content.
Truth be told, there's no reason to make someone pay to not have to do 3 weeks of content that is soloable and trivial, just so they can do the group / raid content that is not trivial.
If you feel cheated because someone can bypass the 3 week grind, that tells me you don't value the experience, you value the progress.
I don't believe in "streamlining" as defined by removing parts of the game. I believe in giving players a choice to start the content where the content begins.
What I call content, is PVP on an even playing field in terms of gear and levels / skills etc. Raiding, where it begins. Taking WoW as an example in shadowlands the current expansion.
I want to be able to start a new character, select that I want it to be level 60 with ilevel 210 gear, with the covenant quest line abilities unlocked, the ilevel 210 legendaries unlocked etc.
This would put me at the very bottom of the current raid tier, and even on the pvp footing as everyone else. (mostly).
If you want to experience the 50-60 leveling and the covenant quest lines along with the tourghast dungeon runs, the mythic dungeon runs needed to unlock all the legendaries, you are fully capable of doing it, I'm just choosing not to do it.
You don't want to do the end game pvp or raiding, I do, neither one of us is impacted negatively, we both win.
You're right.. you want to bypass the content for free, which is just silly.
If the Devs are going to give you a bypass they should at the very least make a profit off it.
Equally so, what motive is there to stop the bypass at some point, because that is where you want it to stop? Because stopping it there would make you feel good? Because that is where you want everyone to have earn their marks?
Sorry that is just begging for special treatment.
What if I don't like raids, and I want to bypass that content but still get the rewards, just like you don't want to do the leveling content but still get the rewards.
They are No different from each other, both are things we don't enjoy dealing with in an MMO, and feel we should have the right to bypass.
Going to bet, the idea of me being able to get a free pass on getting the Absolute Best Raid Gear in game bothers you a bit..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Does anyone that wanted to streamline the game have an objection with that approach?
If you feel cheated because someone can bypass the 3 week grind, that tells me you don't value the experience, you value the progress.
I already play a game that sells Leveling Bypasses. DDO offers Exp stones that give you 2 Million Exp, 50 dollars a Pop.
Buy as many as you like, I don't care.
In fact the first Uber Completionist in DDO legit, totally bought it, from beginning to end, just like that, announced it on their forums, and then IIRC quit like a month later.
Grand total playtime was like 1 month maybe a month and a half, while I have been playing for years and not even close to that.
Well some people lost their shit, all things said and done, because while some people may like their journey, just like some people may like their job, that does not mean they want to see some little shit shoot past them making no effort in the process.
Someone asked me if I was upset about it. Truth be told, I was ecstatic, they must have dumped several grand into the game to get that, I sincerely wish more people did that.
Come in, drop a boat load of money to Quelch their e-peen desires, and then burn out and GTFO because even after all that money they still don't know how to play the game. I Love those people.
But, in any case, I want you to pay for that, because that is a convivence that should be paid for, on top of that, it also, at the very least makes you useful to me.
Otherwise you're just worthless dead weight crybaby in my game that wants free stuff... and Nahh bro, no one wants that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You're right.. you want to bypass the content for free, which is just silly.
If the Devs are going to give you a bypass they should at the very least make a profit off it.
Equally so, what motive is there to stop the bypass at some point, because that is where you want it to stop? Because stopping it there would make you feel good? Because that is where you want everyone to have earn their marks?
Sorry that is just begging for special treatment.
What if I don't like raids, and I want to bypass that content but still get the rewards, just like you don't want to do the leveling content but still get the rewards.
They are No different from each other, both are things we don't enjoy dealing with in an MMO, and feel we should have the right to bypass.
Going to bet, the idea of me being able to get a free pass on getting the Absolute Best Raid Gear in game bothers you a bit..
Well, then Dev's should be able to charge you for every quest you do. It was built into the game launch, but why should you get to experience the content for free?
I don't, I had to buy the game.. Duh.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Otherwise you're just worthless dead weight crybaby in my game that wants free stuff... and Nahh bro, no one wants that.
we wouldn't allow players who have bypasses it and gotten all the super gear etc.
My point made.. NO ONE wants that.
Now put on your adult pants and deal.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No, actually sir, before you congratulate yourself on another internet victory you so clearly need... You failed to make the point you were trying to.
The point you tried to make is, that I wouldn't want to allow players to bypass the gear grind. I do not in fact want to do that, I just wouldn't want to play with them, which is very different.
I'm not asking you to play with me when I bypass your content, so no, you haven't made your point.
And why would you not play with them?
Oh right, because no one likes dealing with people that just want rewards with no work.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
So does someone wanting to bypass the quests to start raiding.. Duh.
No..
What you want is to get the rewards from the game content, without needing to do the content.
Now this might be a hard concept for you to grasp, only because you just don't like the idea of realizing how bad your actual idea is.
But what you are requesting, is to receive all the rewards from a game, without actually playing the game.
Now on the surface, that just looks like a bad idea to start with, it gets better that you would not play with people that did the same thing, where they got all the rewards from a game without playing it.
So your idea, snowballs from "yah, that's a bad idea" to "That idea is so bad, you would not even play with the people that used it"
For the life of me.. I cannot find one good thing about your idea.
Added:
Now, if the Developers at least charged money to let people do your really bad idea, that, it would have at the very least, the single redeeming quality of funding the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I just simply want to play the game I bought, for the same price as you, to do different content than you.
No. You want to receive rewards for not playing the game.
This is what I don't think you grasp. You are not asking to play different content, you are asking for the rewards from the content I am playing, but not needing to play it.
That is a whole other ballgame. And you being deliberately obtuse about it, does not change exactly what you are asking for.
But fear not!
All hope is not lost!
GW2/Anet has heard the cries of WoW rejects like yourself, that is why in GW2, if you buy the Expansion (Which you need to buy to raid anyway), they include a shiny level 80 Token that not only will boost you to max level, IIRC they also give you a nice chest of Exotic Gear, with stats of your choice.
Since Raids in GW2 have no pre-request or gear requirements, that means your fresh out of the box Character 80th level toon is raid ready. If you can find 9 other people willing to raid with you, there is nothing stopping you from getting down to it, and, I might add, being viable in the content*
So again, your little problem was solved by GW2, several years ago.
Putting that idea in something like WoW, it's just bad. But feel free to run off to GW2 and shake that E-Peen, you would fit right in with the legion of other WoW-rejects and refuges that have moved over there and made a raid culture.
* Personal viability in a raid like setting is a L2P issue.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No. You want to receive rewards for not playing the game.
This is what I don't think you grasp. You are not asking to play different content, you are asking for the rewards from the content I am playing, but not needing to play it.
That is a whole other ballgame. And you being deliberately obtuse about it, does not change exactly what you are asking for.
Putting that idea in something like WoW, it's just bad. But feel free to run off to GW2 and shake that E-Peen, you would fit right in with the legion of other WoW-rejects and refuges that have moved over there and made a raid culture.
I get nothing from playing your content, except for access to the content I do want to play. If you want to call that a reward, okay sure, I want to be rewarded for not playing the game, if that wording suits you.
I have no interest in claiming I earned my right to play the content, I'd happily wear the "is bad at the game and needs a hand out" badge if you need to mark us wow-rejects or whatever you want to deem us. So long as I get to play the content I enjoy, get to /ignore you, and don't have to group with players who are wearing gear that would trivialize the content, sounds awesome to me.
We have been over this now.
As I already explained, I am more than content with the way DDO handles this, with their existing system of selling that convivence to those that would rather support the game buying a bypass.
And Again, as I have already explained, GW2, already gives you exactly what you so dearly want, no doubt they provide exactly the service you are whining for because your demographic of WoW-rejects and refuges begged for it years ago.
As for /ignore, meh, most of us that enjoy the process don't need to /ignore people like you, chances are your personality drives us away faster then any in-game mechanic could.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ahh it's those players who beg for power levelling and bug people in global chat for help to bypass the content so they can play the end game because reasons. Glad we cleared that up. As long as you pay for that privilege it's all good.
As I already explained, I am more than content with the way DDO handles this, with their existing system of selling that convivence to those that would rather support the game buying a bypass.
And Again, as I have already explained, GW2, already gives you exactly what you so dearly want, no doubt they provide exactly the service you are whining for because your demographic of WoW-rejects and refuges begged for it years ago.
As for /ignore, meh, most of us that enjoy the process don't need to /ignore people like you, chances are your personality drives us away faster then any in-game mechanic could.
Yeah, your point is well made, you don't like anyone that wants to play differently than you, unless they're willing to pay for it. I'm content with everyone getting the content they paid for, when they want to play it, and filtering who I play with personally. Just a difference of personality I guess.
That was not my point.
So let me say it again in simple terms that even a grot could grasp: What you want already exists in GW2.
Now, you can go play GW2, that already gives you everything you think you want, exactly as you so dearly want.
or..
You can continue to play WoW, and you will play it as the Devs/Blizzard have set the game up to be played.
In that vein, to be dead clear here, I only play games that are already set up the way I want to play, Ideally, I want to play a game where I will enjoy all the parts or, at the very least, I want a game that does not have any features that I directly disdain.
Now, to make that simple, I don't play games that I don't like.
Why you do, boggles my fucking mind.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
So let me say it again in simple terms that even a grot could grasp: What you want already exists in GW2.
Now, you can go play GW2, that already gives you everything you think you want, exactly as you so dearly want.
or..
You can continue to play WoW, and you will play it as the Devs/Blizzard have set the game up to be played.
In that vein, to be dead clear here, I only play games that are already set up the way I want to play, Ideally, I want to play a game where I will enjoy all the parts or, at the very least, I want a game that does not have any features that I directly disdain.
Now, to make that simple, I don't play games that I don't like.
Why you do, boggles my fucking mind.
I am willing to look past 3 weeks of annoyance to have months of enjoyment. I just would like to not have to put that 3 weeks in is all, and why that boggles your mind I can't really understand.
If it's worth it, embrace that and play.
If it's not, find some other game that gives you what you want, they already exist.
But, you are quite adamite that if it were up to you, what I want wouldn't be possible anywhere.
I don't make games, I play games for fun.
And, I play the games that I like to play.
Do I want some crybaby loud mouth whiner to come in and screw around with the game I am enjoying as it is, because they need to be coddled or don't like something?
The answer to that a resounding No.
I want them to leave and find some other game (which I am more than happy to not play) that will provide for them whatever it is they are so dearly looking for, but I don't want them screwing with the one I am enjoying.
It's funny, I came to this forum to get away from reddit that's over run by people that just throw insults at people with different perspectives, seems like that's just the internet these days.
Maybe the problem is how YOU talk with people.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
But, you are quite adamite that if it were up to you, what I want wouldn't be possible anywhere. So, you may not be against anyone not playing your play style, but you're definitely against mine.
I'm going to say this again, as everyone else here already knows I am an adamant supporter of making games that target a specific demographic of player or direct audience, and then targeting the hell out of them, as opposed to games that try to throw a catch-all net.
What this means is, I would rather they make a game that did not have levels at all, and was built from the ground up to entertain your idea, of, I think .. what a Minecraft/Fortnight/PvE Raid Boss hybrid.
I'm Sure there is a market for that. I know that Fortnight supposedly has some PvE missions involving zombies or some such, and they have the building thing going on, so, there is things like that already out there, but given spin offs would exist in the shadow of fortnight, might be tricky to find what you want. Ideally, the right move would be to see if it already exists.
No point in making a game like that if the people who supposedly want it don't go looking for it. eh?
But, a game should be built with that style of play in mind, for that demographic.
Do I want you to shoehorn this very self-serving idea in an existing MMO that is not even remotely designed to attract that demographic to start with.. Aww hell no.
I want WoW, to be built to attract people that want to play WoW. Not a hard concept really, if you don't like the idea of playing WoW, then maybe.. WoW is not for you.
In fact, doing stupid stuff like trying to be everything for everyone is what really defaces MMO's, it destroys their individually, it removes what makes them attractive to any direct market, and thus, the become dull gray forgetful things.
This is in fact what made that MMO Boom in 2000 - 2007ish, such a huge dynamic thing, all these MMO's were striving to be unique, special, different, each one of them seeking to find a niche to hold that group of players.
WOW of course changed all that after it became the Juggernaut that is was.
But anyway, should an MMO dump in some feature into it's system to placate some small subset of it's population just to try and placate everyone and be everything, the answer is simply No.
MMO's should have a market in mind, and target that market.
Now, personally, as far as WoW goes, I don't care what they do, hell, put in your idea, who knows that might increase their subs, might be the final kick in the nuts.. matters not to me.. the only part I have an issue with, is all the people leaving WoW, because they were pissed off at your stupid idea, would come to the games I might be playing and cry that needs to be more like WoW, just not with your stupid idea that ruined the game for them.
But, if it makes you feel any better, no doubt the WoW-Rejects and Refuges were the ones that pleaded GW2 into putting in exactly what it is you wanted to start with, and since GW2 is already full to bursting with self proclaimed WoW World First guild leaders, raiders, and the like, you will be right at home among your tribe. Who knows, some might even remember you from WoW, if you keep the same name.
Been a few years, so maybe not.
But in any case, I am against just screwing around with an existing MMO that has a solid following of people that like the game the way it is.
For the people looking for something different, they should look somewhere different.
You will never find what you seek if you stay where you are.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You're a charmer bro, keep on being you, but nah people don't talk to me like this IRL, I guess it's cause they're not anonymous. /shrug
Gonna bet it's really because you don't have anyone that is willing to waste the effort trying to have a discussion with you in real life.
Which I am starting to really regret I have.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Did he just delete everything including his account? What the hell is wrong with people! Just walk away from the discussion or say "well, we'll agree to disagree" and leave it at that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Did he just delete everything including his account? What the hell is wrong with people! Just walk away from the discussion or say "well, we'll agree to disagree" and leave it at that.
It walked and talked like an alt account. Whose IDK.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
When I last played on one of their original server concepts the one where you get to experience the EQII like how it was when it was released (well not entirely but a good beginning) I didn't even notice my levels. I was in a very good guild that was all about levelling and enjoying the game together. I recall being lost for hours and hours just playing. I just naturally hit level 50 at some point and since I had so much to do like my collections and housing ( a big personal passion of mine) I was a little startled at how fast it went
If you are playing a game like it is just a chore you need to complete the time you spend will feel grating and a waste because the whole point of this type of game will be lost on you. I'm not saying you should not be playing the game with your own goals and ideas but I believe this type of game should be savoured and words like' grind', 'slog' and treadmill do not convey this. Naturally I cannot expect a person with no real appreciation of the world concept while playing to understand where I am coming from.
It is the same reason I do not understand personally why people don't want to do the quests in FFXIV properly or rush to the end game in WoW. Just as I find it unfathomable I am sure my way of playing is equally puzzling to someone else.
I remember when I first logged into Project 99 and was thinking about what I was going to do and was so excited to be able to just experience my favourite game and live in it. That is it my goal. I wanted to live in Norrath for awhile. Even if I died a lot which I often did and made negative progress I was thrilled because it felt like I was in an actual world and I was part of that world. So many games you just play you never actually inhabit it. That is the difference to me and that makes a world of difference to why the game isn't a grind or slog or treadmill. I am sure I am unable to get this across because it looks like a slogan from a publisher but that is how people who enjoy this genre feel about these games.
Well the obvious answer that most seem to overlook is "because that is the END of the game, not the Start" Duh.
Ideally, the motive by the player should be to find the game they enjoy playing, as opposed to crying that games need to be changed to suit their needs.
But with that said, I see now why Cash Shops sell level boosts and insta-end game tokens, and why I can get behind this idea that if someone wants to bypass the content of the game, they should be able to do so, at a alternate cost, ergo, real cash money.
I think however the precious raiders would have a major brain hemorrhage if I could just buy the raid rewards in the store for a few bucks, because if not for double standards like that, elitist would have no standards at all.
So.. if I am really that bitter... why I would support allowing these people to jump past me like that?
Well for me, at least in DDO, where players can buy Otto Stones to get 2 Million Exp for fast and easy leveling. It's simple, the impatient crowd that needs to bypass content and not play the game, just so they can wave their e-peen at the supposed "End Game" might as well end up being useful to me in supporting the game fiscally, because they sure are not useful to me in any other way... LOL
So I think the solution should be simply allowing people to buy Max Level Boosts, as well as Buy the Best Gear and Items in the Game, and Buy from the Store anything and everything they want, as opposed to putting any expectations on them to have to actually play the game at all.
That way, the people that want to play the game as it is, can enjoy it as it is. If there is any content they do not like but want the rewards from, like leveling, crafting, raids, dungeons, story, open world exploration, anything and everything that might be out of their reach or they simply do not enjoy that content, they can just simply bypass it with some money and still get all the rewards and other things, and be done with it.
Does anyone that wanted to streamline the game have an objection with that approach?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
With that said, yah, any time there is real money involved someone is going to cry P2W, I have long since stopped caring about those cries after my eyes were opened to how asinine people were with it, when they started to call mount skins P2W. Not Mounts, Not Mount Abilities, just a purely cosmetic skin, was called P2W. At that point the term P2W died to me, and I am pretty sure, it's mostly dead to the majority of modern gamers in general.
This is why, as opposed to saying P2W, we now have to call out specific predatory tactics, like Lootboxes.
Anyway, I was just thinking that anything you can get in game could be sold in the store.
I mean if we are going to advocate bypassing content, first, the company should make bank roll off it, giving it away for free is silly, and second, if we are going to bypass content, lets just get it done and be over it, anything and everything you just don't want to do, but want the rewards for, just sell it and be over it.
If we are going to use the mentality of the people that want to streamline content.. t does not hurt you or anyone else if they can bypass the effort to get what they want.
If the Devs are going to give you a bypass they should at the very least make a profit off it.
Equally so, what motive is there to stop the bypass at some point, because that is where you want it to stop? Because stopping it there would make you feel good? Because that is where you want everyone to have earn their marks?
Sorry that is just begging for special treatment.
What if I don't like raids, and I want to bypass that content but still get the rewards, just like you don't want to do the leveling content but still get the rewards.
They are No different from each other, both are things we don't enjoy dealing with in an MMO, and feel we should have the right to bypass.
Going to bet, the idea of me being able to get a free pass on getting the Absolute Best Raid Gear in game bothers you a bit..
Buy as many as you like, I don't care.
In fact the first Uber Completionist in DDO legit, totally bought it, from beginning to end, just like that, announced it on their forums, and then IIRC quit like a month later.
Grand total playtime was like 1 month maybe a month and a half, while I have been playing for years and not even close to that.
Well some people lost their shit, all things said and done, because while some people may like their journey, just like some people may like their job, that does not mean they want to see some little shit shoot past them making no effort in the process.
Someone asked me if I was upset about it. Truth be told, I was ecstatic, they must have dumped several grand into the game to get that, I sincerely wish more people did that.
Come in, drop a boat load of money to Quelch their e-peen desires, and then burn out and GTFO because even after all that money they still don't know how to play the game. I Love those people.
But, in any case, I want you to pay for that, because that is a convivence that should be paid for, on top of that, it also, at the very least makes you useful to me.
Otherwise you're just worthless dead weight crybaby in my game that wants free stuff... and Nahh bro, no one wants that.
Now put on your adult pants and deal.
Oh right, because no one likes dealing with people that just want rewards with no work.
What you want is to get the rewards from the game content, without needing to do the content.
Now this might be a hard concept for you to grasp, only because you just don't like the idea of realizing how bad your actual idea is.
But what you are requesting, is to receive all the rewards from a game, without actually playing the game.
Now on the surface, that just looks like a bad idea to start with, it gets better that you would not play with people that did the same thing, where they got all the rewards from a game without playing it.
So your idea, snowballs from "yah, that's a bad idea" to "That idea is so bad, you would not even play with the people that used it"
For the life of me.. I cannot find one good thing about your idea.
Added:
Now, if the Developers at least charged money to let people do your really bad idea, that, it would have at the very least, the single redeeming quality of funding the game.
This is what I don't think you grasp. You are not asking to play different content, you are asking for the rewards from the content I am playing, but not needing to play it.
That is a whole other ballgame. And you being deliberately obtuse about it, does not change exactly what you are asking for.
But fear not!
All hope is not lost!
GW2/Anet has heard the cries of WoW rejects like yourself, that is why in GW2, if you buy the Expansion (Which you need to buy to raid anyway), they include a shiny level 80 Token that not only will boost you to max level, IIRC they also give you a nice chest of Exotic Gear, with stats of your choice.Since Raids in GW2 have no pre-request or gear requirements, that means your fresh out of the box Character 80th level toon is raid ready. If you can find 9 other people willing to raid with you, there is nothing stopping you from getting down to it, and, I might add, being viable in the content*
So again, your little problem was solved by GW2, several years ago.
Putting that idea in something like WoW, it's just bad. But feel free to run off to GW2 and shake that E-Peen, you would fit right in with the legion of other WoW-rejects and refuges that have moved over there and made a raid culture.
* Personal viability in a raid like setting is a L2P issue.
As I already explained, I am more than content with the way DDO handles this, with their existing system of selling that convivence to those that would rather support the game buying a bypass.
And Again, as I have already explained, GW2, already gives you exactly what you so dearly want, no doubt they provide exactly the service you are whining for because your demographic of WoW-rejects and refuges begged for it years ago.
As for /ignore, meh, most of us that enjoy the process don't need to /ignore people like you, chances are your personality drives us away faster then any in-game mechanic could.
So let me say it again in simple terms that even a grot could grasp: What you want already exists in GW2.
Now, you can go play GW2, that already gives you everything you think you want, exactly as you so dearly want.
or..
You can continue to play WoW, and you will play it as the Devs/Blizzard have set the game up to be played.
In that vein, to be dead clear here, I only play games that are already set up the way I want to play, Ideally, I want to play a game where I will enjoy all the parts or, at the very least, I want a game that does not have any features that I directly disdain.
Now, to make that simple, I don't play games that I don't like.
Why you do, boggles my fucking mind.
If it's not, find some other game that gives you what you want, they already exist.
I don't make games, I play games for fun.
And, I play the games that I like to play.
Do I want some crybaby loud mouth whiner to come in and screw around with the game I am enjoying as it is, because they need to be coddled or don't like something?
The answer to that a resounding No.
I want them to leave and find some other game (which I am more than happy to not play) that will provide for them whatever it is they are so dearly looking for, but I don't want them screwing with the one I am enjoying.
Are we clear on that?
Maybe the problem is how YOU talk with people.
What this means is, I would rather they make a game that did not have levels at all, and was built from the ground up to entertain your idea, of, I think .. what a Minecraft/Fortnight/PvE Raid Boss hybrid.
I'm Sure there is a market for that. I know that Fortnight supposedly has some PvE missions involving zombies or some such, and they have the building thing going on, so, there is things like that already out there, but given spin offs would exist in the shadow of fortnight, might be tricky to find what you want. Ideally, the right move would be to see if it already exists.
No point in making a game like that if the people who supposedly want it don't go looking for it. eh?
But, a game should be built with that style of play in mind, for that demographic.
Do I want you to shoehorn this very self-serving idea in an existing MMO that is not even remotely designed to attract that demographic to start with.. Aww hell no.
I want WoW, to be built to attract people that want to play WoW. Not a hard concept really, if you don't like the idea of playing WoW, then maybe.. WoW is not for you.
In fact, doing stupid stuff like trying to be everything for everyone is what really defaces MMO's, it destroys their individually, it removes what makes them attractive to any direct market, and thus, the become dull gray forgetful things.
This is in fact what made that MMO Boom in 2000 - 2007ish, such a huge dynamic thing, all these MMO's were striving to be unique, special, different, each one of them seeking to find a niche to hold that group of players.
WOW of course changed all that after it became the Juggernaut that is was.
But anyway, should an MMO dump in some feature into it's system to placate some small subset of it's population just to try and placate everyone and be everything, the answer is simply No.
MMO's should have a market in mind, and target that market.
Now, personally, as far as WoW goes, I don't care what they do, hell, put in your idea, who knows that might increase their subs, might be the final kick in the nuts.. matters not to me.. the only part I have an issue with, is all the people leaving WoW, because they were pissed off at your stupid idea, would come to the games I might be playing and cry that needs to be more like WoW, just not with your stupid idea that ruined the game for them.
But, if it makes you feel any better, no doubt the WoW-Rejects and Refuges were the ones that pleaded GW2 into putting in exactly what it is you wanted to start with, and since GW2 is already full to bursting with self proclaimed WoW World First guild leaders, raiders, and the like, you will be right at home among your tribe. Who knows, some might even remember you from WoW, if you keep the same name.
Been a few years, so maybe not.
But in any case, I am against just screwing around with an existing MMO that has a solid following of people that like the game the way it is.
For the people looking for something different, they should look somewhere different.
You will never find what you seek if you stay where you are.
Which I am starting to really regret I have.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED