I don't know that current threat evaluation systems (agro) are the problem. I think the problem is more fundamental than that. Old school games are built around the premise that a standard fight is 6 characters against 1 active mob. An agro system is needed in such instances to determine which character the mob focuses on.
What if instead of a 6-on-1 battle, the standard fight was 6-on-6? Every character would need to engage an opponent or take them out of the fight temporarily. Specialists would need to clear their opponent in order to help out another character. Fights could shift dynamically, one moment it might start as 6-6, then evolve into a 3-1, a 2-1 and a 1-4 (a defensive/blocking fight), and then evolve again into a 1-1 (to finish off an opponent), a 2-1 and 3-4 fight, as characters change engagements during the fight.
I think this could add much needed flexibility in the otherwise static nature of MMORPG fights. Not only would characters need to coordinate more with other players, they would have different tactical stances available to accomplish their immediate goal. Defensive to engage multiple opponents, several offensive modes to damage the enemy, Blocking maneuvers to prevent foes from disrupting the players, and maybe other stances (Tackle/Grapple/Knockdown comes to mind).
Changing from a 6-1 to a 6-6 philosophy requires a different mindset from the developers. Individual mobs don't need to be able to threaten a group of PCs by having 5-6x the number of hit points, and PC damage could be more on par with an individual mobs' damage. Such changes *might* even make PvP systems more equitable, and not requiring 2 different sets of combat mechanics (PC vs mob and PC vs. PC).
How DDO is not the King Shizzle Shitz of the gaming world is beyond me, because it has everything you just talked about, and so much more.
It's also Action based combat.
Which is why it isn't popular with many MMORPG players, keep that on consoles where it belongs.
DDO has tab targeting for all you old farts.
Targeting is never the issue, it's the dodge and roll part I can't abide.
DDO does not have dodge rolling for you all you old farts.
But you can dodge corect?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't know that current threat evaluation systems (agro) are the problem. I think the problem is more fundamental than that. Old school games are built around the premise that a standard fight is 6 characters against 1 active mob. An agro system is needed in such instances to determine which character the mob focuses on.
What if instead of a 6-on-1 battle, the standard fight was 6-on-6? Every character would need to engage an opponent or take them out of the fight temporarily. Specialists would need to clear their opponent in order to help out another character. Fights could shift dynamically, one moment it might start as 6-6, then evolve into a 3-1, a 2-1 and a 1-4 (a defensive/blocking fight), and then evolve again into a 1-1 (to finish off an opponent), a 2-1 and 3-4 fight, as characters change engagements during the fight.
I think this could add much needed flexibility in the otherwise static nature of MMORPG fights. Not only would characters need to coordinate more with other players, they would have different tactical stances available to accomplish their immediate goal. Defensive to engage multiple opponents, several offensive modes to damage the enemy, Blocking maneuvers to prevent foes from disrupting the players, and maybe other stances (Tackle/Grapple/Knockdown comes to mind).
Changing from a 6-1 to a 6-6 philosophy requires a different mindset from the developers. Individual mobs don't need to be able to threaten a group of PCs by having 5-6x the number of hit points, and PC damage could be more on par with an individual mobs' damage. Such changes *might* even make PvP systems more equitable, and not requiring 2 different sets of combat mechanics (PC vs mob and PC vs. PC).
How DDO is not the King Shizzle Shitz of the gaming world is beyond me, because it has everything you just talked about, and so much more.
It's also Action based combat.
Which is why it isn't popular with many MMORPG players, keep that on consoles where it belongs.
DDO has tab targeting for all you old farts.
Targeting is never the issue, it's the dodge and roll part I can't abide.
DDO does not have dodge rolling for you all you old farts.
But you can dodge corect?
If you mean "Dodge" as in a ability or effect that you can trigger that allows you to quickly avoid damage, the answer is No.
If you mean "Dodge" as in run away and hope things miss you as your teammates try to pull agro while you flee in panic, it has that.
DDO also has direct blocking, where you attempt to stand your ground and deflect or mitigate damage with your shield or weapon, to be fair, this is far more effective if you use a shield, and nothing like a dodge ability.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In a boss fight, get rid off the chaff first, or concentrate on the boss?
Do you get rid of the healers who keep the opponent's health bar up?
Do you try to take the alpha strikers first?
I'm curious how different we approach fights from the usual AI "threat table?"
Yeah, if NPCs were to conduct combat like Players do, things would be quite different. And no one would want to play a Healer. lol
So it does have to be different from what Players would do. Besides, that would make it very predictable.
Once again, that's why I like the idea of randomness. Different tactics employed per encounter, and changed up during the encounter. That way it doesn't get boringly predictable. Still, you want it to have some intelligent design so that the NPCs can put up a good fight. But also allow for "mistakes" by said NPCs. So, random but weighted "die rolls" by circumstances.
You can do intelligent AI, but instead of taunt FORCING mobs to attack the tank, taunt could just debuff AI so they do less damage if they don't attack the tank. Still probably a good idea to follow some form of trinity system, but that's just my opinion. I'm not saying AI can't be more intelligent, but having player defined roles is crucial for making combat more dynamic and less chaotic.
Guild Wars 2 pretty much doesn't follow the traditional trinity system and I for one can't stand the chaos in combat. In my opinion, GW2 PvE combat system is simply horrible, makes zero sense and forces the game into the ménage à trois where everyone is a tank, dps and healer. Which in turn destroys player individuality.
GW2 is one of the worst examples, because with the system you describe, everybody will simply join the group as a DPS role and stack to spread out the damage from enemy attacks. Thats not good group play since everybody play the same and only role, which is DPS.
In a boss fight, get rid off the chaff first, or concentrate on the boss?
Do you get rid of the healers who keep the opponent's health bar up?
Do you try to take the alpha strikers first?
I'm curious how different we approach fights from the usual AI "threat table?"
This really depends on the MMO.
Some MMO's it's super hard to know who does what, or how hard a fight will be based on appearance, class, and the only real targeting comes from what could at best be called Cutting, where you try to separate people from their group/squad, or target anyone that falls behind their main group, and then gang attack them, This commonly done in games like GW2's WvW. Their sPvP, does not have roles, so, ideally again, fights are often about teamwork against a single target, more than any real aggro management method.
In a game like DDO, where there are very direct roles, it can be very hard to target and take down a 'healer', not simply because they look exactly like the fighter or paladin (Full plate, Shield, Melee Weapon) but also because they might have enough AC, HP, and self healing to actually be the tank and shrug off your best hits like they are nothing, and the only reason they are not the tank is because they can't hold aggro or do decent DPS. So they stand there turtled in, being about the hardest, or second hardest, thing in the group to actually kill.
In direct PvP games like Eternal Crusade, which is kinda like Team Fortress, all things said and done, if I am playing Tactical or Assault, I will often target heavies first, doing anything I can to get close to them, often sneaking behind them, to cut them down, as they offer unparalleled ranged support, but are often very easy to kill in close combat. In a good EC game, they will have a Medic with them, who is no slouch in combat, and if the medic spots you, the heavies might respond fast enough to turn you into swiss cheese, that is assuming that the medic didn't just put their force axe through your skull all on their onezie and call it a day, however, I must admit, I love playing a Healer looking forward to killing the people coming to sneak my heavies.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In a boss fight, get rid off the chaff first, or concentrate on the boss?
Do you get rid of the healers who keep the opponent's health bar up?
Do you try to take the alpha strikers first?
I'm curious how different we approach fights from the usual AI "threat table?"
I see what you trying to do. I came up with a PvP analogy of the Trinity years ago. the same basic principles we use in PvE Holy Trinity mechanics, we also do in PvP. I will explain.
*Trinity = Tank, Healers, DPS
Note- -Tanks tend to be Melee Fighters. -Tanks role is keeping attention off the more high valued assets, either through protection or attention seeking (aggro/threat). -Healers focus on keeping Tank alive, but also the Group alive. -DPS focus on killing, either Ranged or Melee
Note- -Healers in PvE and PvP do the same role. Keeping the group alive and their Tanks especially. -DPS does the same role in PvE and PvP, which is killing stuff.
-Tanks are where things look different, but really isnt. Remember how I said how in PvE trinity, Tanks generally are Melee fighters. Well in PvP, Tanks also are Melee fighters, but they are built for Melee DPS killing enemies in close range. In PvP setting, they create "a Threat". Because unlike ranged DPS in PvP that can attack from a distance and out the way, Melee DPSers in PvP are close up and in your face, bursting you down while you trying to get to their healers. They will Burst you down with their Melee close range attacks and CCs, being as annoying as possible (hint the term TAUNT) comes from in its original DnD Table Top source of the term here. Taunting in PvE is the roleplay mechanical explanation of a character intentionally becoming annoying to enemies.
Melee DPSers in PvP do exactly that. Thats how they "TANK" for their group in PvP setting. The typical heavy armor and taunt skill are just mechanics to translate this same behavior for PvE AI, which doesnt experience fear or annoyance. but players do the same thing.
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
No, it's not the same. The NPCs wouldn't be out to pillage and plunder every other player in the game. (Unless they are coded that way, which would make your comment true.)
Which means there wouldn't be all the tricks to trap other Players with, the cheats, etc.
I don't know that current threat evaluation systems (agro) are the problem. I think the problem is more fundamental than that. Old school games are built around the premise that a standard fight is 6 characters against 1 active mob. An agro system is needed in such instances to determine which character the mob focuses on.
What if instead of a 6-on-1 battle, the standard fight was 6-on-6? Every character would need to engage an opponent or take them out of the fight temporarily. Specialists would need to clear their opponent in order to help out another character. Fights could shift dynamically, one moment it might start as 6-6, then evolve into a 3-1, a 2-1 and a 1-4 (a defensive/blocking fight), and then evolve again into a 1-1 (to finish off an opponent), a 2-1 and 3-4 fight, as characters change engagements during the fight.
I think this could add much needed flexibility in the otherwise static nature of MMORPG fights. Not only would characters need to coordinate more with other players, they would have different tactical stances available to accomplish their immediate goal. Defensive to engage multiple opponents, several offensive modes to damage the enemy, Blocking maneuvers to prevent foes from disrupting the players, and maybe other stances (Tackle/Grapple/Knockdown comes to mind).
Changing from a 6-1 to a 6-6 philosophy requires a different mindset from the developers. Individual mobs don't need to be able to threaten a group of PCs by having 5-6x the number of hit points, and PC damage could be more on par with an individual mobs' damage. Such changes *might* even make PvP systems more equitable, and not requiring 2 different sets of combat mechanics (PC vs mob and PC vs. PC).
How DDO is not the King Shizzle Shitz of the gaming world is beyond me, because it has everything you just talked about, and so much more.
It's also Action based combat.
Which is why it isn't popular with many MMORPG players, keep that on consoles where it belongs.
DDO has tab targeting for all you old farts.
Targeting is never the issue, it's the dodge and roll part I can't abide.
DDO does not have dodge rolling for you all you old farts.
But you can dodge corect?
If you mean "Dodge" as in a ability or effect that you can trigger that allows you to quickly avoid damage, the answer is No.
If you mean "Dodge" as in run away and hope things miss you as your teammates try to pull agro while you flee in panic, it has that.
DDO also has direct blocking, where you attempt to stand your ground and deflect or mitigate damage with your shield or weapon, to be fair, this is far more effective if you use a shield, and nothing like a dodge ability.
not exactly.
I mean "dodge." Running away is not dodging.
When I play DDO I tend to "jump" to the left or the right to avoid an attack. I'm asking if that actually does anything as to be honest it's hard to tell.
The game is so laggy for me that sometimes I swing a sword and it doesn't do anything until the server catches up.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
No, it's not the same. The NPCs wouldn't be out to pillage and plunder every other player in the game. (Unless they are coded that way, which would make your comment true.)
Which means there wouldn't be all the tricks to trap other Players with, the cheats, etc.
you said no, but yet contradict your statement. If AI was advanced further, why wouldnt the NPC do those same things to players that a Player would also do?
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
No, it's not the same. The NPCs wouldn't be out to pillage and plunder every other player in the game. (Unless they are coded that way, which would make your comment true.)
Which means there wouldn't be all the tricks to trap other Players with, the cheats, etc.
you said no, but yet contradict your statement. If AI was advanced further, why wouldnt the NPC do those same things to players that a Player would also do?
Ohjesus. Of course that could be done. But why would a game company create such a game?
"Buy our game and lets see how long before we drive you out with our cool PKer AI." "It didn't work when players were the PKers and looters, but we're confident that things will be different when they are NPCs that are killing and looting you, making your game play insufferable, at every turn."
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
No, it's not the same. The NPCs wouldn't be out to pillage and plunder every other player in the game. (Unless they are coded that way, which would make your comment true.)
Which means there wouldn't be all the tricks to trap other Players with, the cheats, etc.
you said no, but yet contradict your statement. If AI was advanced further, why wouldnt the NPC do those same things to players that a Player would also do?
Ohjesus. Of course that could be done. But why would a game company create such a game?
"Buy our game and lets see how long before we drive you out with our cool PKer AI." "It didn't work when players were the PKers and looters, but we're confident that things will be different when they are NPCs that are killing and looting you, making your game play insufferable, at every turn."
Game name: "Insuffering Hallows"
But thats pretty much what you all are whining about. The AI. You whining for better AI,,, well the better the AI gets, it pretty much becomes PvP.
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
Very interesting question, my answer is that it's highly unlikely to be equivalent to a FFA PvP MMORPG, but if they did somehow create it, then no, its unlikely to be popular. But I may be wrong.
To reach equivalence, the developers of the AI would have to specifically aim for that result, which would mean:
Designing the NPCs to have the exact same gear, skills, classes etc as the players
Designing the AI to deliberately (randomly?) make errors: players are not perfect, therefore the AI shouldn't be perfect.
Designing the AI to be subject to human psychology: we players make decisions based on emotions, rather than logic. And we all have different emotions and motivations, so there would need to be the same level of varience in the NPCs
I can't see all that happening.
All that said, PvP is one of the most popular gaming activities and is extremely popular in multiplayer games. It's just not popular in MMORPGs. So, I suppose it would come down to the overall implementation of the game, rather than necessarily the difficulty posed by the AI.
Players of RPGs generally expect to win, thats the way the games are designed. All NPCs have a strategy to beat them, either through tactics, class/group combinations, or just straight up power levels.
PvP is different. PvP is designed to be more balanced: sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. There will always be players who are better than you. So, I guess if you could convince PvP players to play your PvE RPG with advanced AI, then you might find a willing and appreciate audience. But, if you expected your typical RPG players to adopt the PvP mentality, well, thats a tough sell.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I don't know that current threat evaluation systems (agro) are the problem. I think the problem is more fundamental than that. Old school games are built around the premise that a standard fight is 6 characters against 1 active mob. An agro system is needed in such instances to determine which character the mob focuses on.
What if instead of a 6-on-1 battle, the standard fight was 6-on-6? Every character would need to engage an opponent or take them out of the fight temporarily. Specialists would need to clear their opponent in order to help out another character. Fights could shift dynamically, one moment it might start as 6-6, then evolve into a 3-1, a 2-1 and a 1-4 (a defensive/blocking fight), and then evolve again into a 1-1 (to finish off an opponent), a 2-1 and 3-4 fight, as characters change engagements during the fight.
I think this could add much needed flexibility in the otherwise static nature of MMORPG fights. Not only would characters need to coordinate more with other players, they would have different tactical stances available to accomplish their immediate goal. Defensive to engage multiple opponents, several offensive modes to damage the enemy, Blocking maneuvers to prevent foes from disrupting the players, and maybe other stances (Tackle/Grapple/Knockdown comes to mind).
Changing from a 6-1 to a 6-6 philosophy requires a different mindset from the developers. Individual mobs don't need to be able to threaten a group of PCs by having 5-6x the number of hit points, and PC damage could be more on par with an individual mobs' damage. Such changes *might* even make PvP systems more equitable, and not requiring 2 different sets of combat mechanics (PC vs mob and PC vs. PC).
How DDO is not the King Shizzle Shitz of the gaming world is beyond me, because it has everything you just talked about, and so much more.
It's also Action based combat.
Which is why it isn't popular with many MMORPG players, keep that on consoles where it belongs.
DDO has tab targeting for all you old farts.
Targeting is never the issue, it's the dodge and roll part I can't abide.
DDO does not have dodge rolling for you all you old farts.
Hold up there a moment.
I only played DDO at launch (before fire) and a big reason I left before the initial month expired was I recall having to practice dodge rolling to both the left and right during the tutorial.
This, coupled with the fact there wasn't really an actual world to explore, rather it was a just a big lobby with connections to multiple group only dungeons and I was gone in a week maybe.
Back then I would have been trying to create a Paladin assuming they had them, if not then some sort of hybrid thief perhaps.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't know that current threat evaluation systems (agro) are the problem. I think the problem is more fundamental than that. Old school games are built around the premise that a standard fight is 6 characters against 1 active mob. An agro system is needed in such instances to determine which character the mob focuses on.
What if instead of a 6-on-1 battle, the standard fight was 6-on-6? Every character would need to engage an opponent or take them out of the fight temporarily. Specialists would need to clear their opponent in order to help out another character. Fights could shift dynamically, one moment it might start as 6-6, then evolve into a 3-1, a 2-1 and a 1-4 (a defensive/blocking fight), and then evolve again into a 1-1 (to finish off an opponent), a 2-1 and 3-4 fight, as characters change engagements during the fight.
I think this could add much needed flexibility in the otherwise static nature of MMORPG fights. Not only would characters need to coordinate more with other players, they would have different tactical stances available to accomplish their immediate goal. Defensive to engage multiple opponents, several offensive modes to damage the enemy, Blocking maneuvers to prevent foes from disrupting the players, and maybe other stances (Tackle/Grapple/Knockdown comes to mind).
Changing from a 6-1 to a 6-6 philosophy requires a different mindset from the developers. Individual mobs don't need to be able to threaten a group of PCs by having 5-6x the number of hit points, and PC damage could be more on par with an individual mobs' damage. Such changes *might* even make PvP systems more equitable, and not requiring 2 different sets of combat mechanics (PC vs mob and PC vs. PC).
How DDO is not the King Shizzle Shitz of the gaming world is beyond me, because it has everything you just talked about, and so much more.
It's also Action based combat.
Which is why it isn't popular with many MMORPG players, keep that on consoles where it belongs.
DDO has tab targeting for all you old farts.
Targeting is never the issue, it's the dodge and roll part I can't abide.
I know you. You're that guy who packs the La-Z-Boy to the fight and just sits there with a spear shouting "come at me, bro!"
Funny story, I do sometimes play in a recliner in RL and in FO 76 I picked up a pair of matching recliners in the Atom store for my characters to relax in after a hard day of killing.
My main is a heavy tank build whose idea of action combat is to sprint straight in while holding down the trigger on my .50 cal MG, often running right through my targets as they explode into bloody pieces.
Annoying at times when I can't locate any of the remains to loot their corpses
Oh yeah, I will circle strafe hardened targets like the Scorch Queen but that's about as far as I go for movement.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
No, it's not the same. The NPCs wouldn't be out to pillage and plunder every other player in the game. (Unless they are coded that way, which would make your comment true.)
Which means there wouldn't be all the tricks to trap other Players with, the cheats, etc.
you said no, but yet contradict your statement. If AI was advanced further, why wouldnt the NPC do those same things to players that a Player would also do?
Ohjesus. Of course that could be done. But why would a game company create such a game?
"Buy our game and lets see how long before we drive you out with our cool PKer AI." "It didn't work when players were the PKers and looters, but we're confident that things will be different when they are NPCs that are killing and looting you, making your game play insufferable, at every turn."
Game name: "Insuffering Hallows"
But thats pretty much what you all are whining about. The AI. You whining for better AI,,, well the better the AI gets, it pretty much becomes PvP.
No, it's not what we want. You're taking this to an extreme. For what reason I can't even fathom.
Ungood said: If you mean "Dodge" as in a ability or effect that you can trigger that allows you to quickly avoid damage, the answer is No.
If you mean "Dodge" as in run away and hope things miss you as your teammates try to pull agro while you flee in panic, it has that.
DDO also has direct blocking, where you attempt to stand your ground and deflect or mitigate damage with your shield or weapon, to be fair, this is far more effective if you use a shield, and nothing like a dodge ability.
not exactly.
I mean "dodge." Running away is not dodging.
When I play DDO I tend to "jump" to the left or the right to avoid an attack. I'm asking if that actually does anything as to be honest it's hard to tell.
The game is so laggy for me that sometimes I swing a sword and it doesn't do anything until the server catches up.
No Dis but. Ahh yes the Prance around like a Pony on Crack tactic.
Ok, first, sorry, this is going to be a lot of words, because you walked into one of the more advanced parts of combat in DDO, that a lot of modern games do not even offer.
While I have explained this in another post on this topic, I plan to go a bit more inadept here, because you play the game, and this is as good a time as any to lay this out.
In DDO you can legit side-step projectiles (Arrows, Bolts, Throwing Daggers, etc) and ray attacks (Cone of Cold, Fireball, Prismatic Ray, Etc) if you are paying attention and have the reflexes for it.
This is not the same as modern MMO Dodge Rolling, that is an ability to avoid damage, this is exactly as it sounds, you are side-stepping the shot, and this is because ranged attacks target the spot the player is in, let's call it a hit-box, when they are launched, but the player has a time delay generated by the distance between when the attack was started and when it will hit the player, and they can use this time delay to move out of that hit-box location, and thus avoid getting hit.
Ergo, Side Stepping the Arrow.
How they opt to move out of that hit box is up to them, weather they want to jump, strife, jump and strive, tumble, or whatever, or even if they think they have the reaction time to pull it off. This is not something everyone uses, nor do they have to, it's a totally optional tactic that some take advantage of and some don't.
Now, just to clear something up, only some attacks in DDO do not track the target once launched, however, like AD&D 3.x edition rules, some attacks do track a player, like for example, magic missile tracks you, because it says right in the spell description "A missile of magical energy darts forth and unerringly strikes its target" so you can jump, roll, tumble, flee, cry, whine, curl up into a ball and suck your thumb... none of it will matter, these missiles will hit you, because that is how the game works.
Same with direct targeted spells, IE: Finger of Death. The caster calls you as a target this just hits you, and no amount of caffeine induced button mashing will stop that, so you will need some other means to deal with those kinds of attacks and spells, Thankfully, healing spells work the same way, so a jumping jackrabbit player can still be healed by the stoic slow cleric that thinks a shield blocking is the shizzle of all defensives.
But even with that, spells still require Line of Sight, that means, you can duck behind walls so that a caster cannot target or cast on you, to the chagrin of many clerics when the barb runs down the hall and makes a left, and vanishes from LoS as they are trying to heal them.
This is a super handy tactic, because then the caster needs to come around the corner to cast on you, and hopefully you have planned for this and are ready to lay a beat down them when they get within range of your greatsword before they can do any real damage with their spells.
Tactics!
Ok back to motion and tracking. Now being able to move out of a hit-box, applies to both Mobs and PC's, so if the target moves, the attack will not follow them (like it does in GW2 for example) and has a chance to miss.
Now, we get how that works. As such, I will admit, yes jumping around like a jackrabbit on meth does in fact work to avoid getting hit because you are moving constantly out of the hit-box, and there are many players that swear by this tactic, and it has it's own cult following for it's effectiveness. I have seen it used with amazing success, and have nothing but absolute respect for this tactic and the players that can make it work, even if I do toss some subtle digs at it, I have nothing but love, admiration, respect for the players that can work this method.
With that said, it is exclusively a ranged players tactic, as it requires that they keep a distance between themselves and the mobs they wish to fight to keep that time delay between the attack and the hit, so they can move out of the Hit-box.
This means, endless kiting if the mob chases them.
With all that said, keep in mind that Jumping is optional, and often done because it generates move movement, and a greater chance to not be in the hit-box, personally, I think it's because the people that really get into that tactic are jacked on way too stimulants', as they all talk about being on 12th cup of coffee by the time I am sitting down to play with them on my 5th shot of whiskey, obviously we do not use the same tactics.
But the truth is, simply moving out of the hit box works, no matter how you achieve said goal, case in point, strifing works, but perhaps not as well, and not as well against many opponents which, getting swarmed, does tend to happen in DDO.
Now you mentioned "Swing your Sword" and this is where I need to potentially give you some bad news, jumping around to avoid getting hit is not a good tactic for a lot of Melee players, (it can work for some, but the build needs to be made in a way where that does work) but for the most part, it does not work, because keep in mind, as you try to move out of their hit-box, you also move them out of yours, so you end up missing them as much as you try to make them miss you, thus the more you move and jump around as a melee the more you can be reducing your effective DPS, and this can be by a huge amount depending on how you play.
So as a melee, to effectively hit mobs, sadly, for the most part, you're going to need to stand there and trade blows, embrace that as your lot in life playing DDO, moving as a melee is mainly done as a tactical move to keep mobs from flanking you, and perhaps to flank them, often your tactic is to keep moving in such a way that you keep the Mobs in your strike range to your front, do not let them box you in, get behind you, and the like. Sometimes moving to collect them up where you can use cleaves and great cleaves to hit larger groups or mobs.
Tactics can be a huge thing in DDO. We could also all be over geared milti-life TR's who have run the content 100's of times and chew through it like hungry beaver on some basswood.
But that is a more a who you group with thing.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I don't know that current threat evaluation systems (agro) are the problem. I think the problem is more fundamental than that. Old school games are built around the premise that a standard fight is 6 characters against 1 active mob. An agro system is needed in such instances to determine which character the mob focuses on.
What if instead of a 6-on-1 battle, the standard fight was 6-on-6? Every character would need to engage an opponent or take them out of the fight temporarily. Specialists would need to clear their opponent in order to help out another character. Fights could shift dynamically, one moment it might start as 6-6, then evolve into a 3-1, a 2-1 and a 1-4 (a defensive/blocking fight), and then evolve again into a 1-1 (to finish off an opponent), a 2-1 and 3-4 fight, as characters change engagements during the fight.
I think this could add much needed flexibility in the otherwise static nature of MMORPG fights. Not only would characters need to coordinate more with other players, they would have different tactical stances available to accomplish their immediate goal. Defensive to engage multiple opponents, several offensive modes to damage the enemy, Blocking maneuvers to prevent foes from disrupting the players, and maybe other stances (Tackle/Grapple/Knockdown comes to mind).
Changing from a 6-1 to a 6-6 philosophy requires a different mindset from the developers. Individual mobs don't need to be able to threaten a group of PCs by having 5-6x the number of hit points, and PC damage could be more on par with an individual mobs' damage. Such changes *might* even make PvP systems more equitable, and not requiring 2 different sets of combat mechanics (PC vs mob and PC vs. PC).
How DDO is not the King Shizzle Shitz of the gaming world is beyond me, because it has everything you just talked about, and so much more.
It's also Action based combat.
Which is why it isn't popular with many MMORPG players, keep that on consoles where it belongs.
DDO has tab targeting for all you old farts.
Targeting is never the issue, it's the dodge and roll part I can't abide.
DDO does not have dodge rolling for you all you old farts.
Hold up there a moment.
I only played DDO at launch (before fire) and a big reason I left before the initial month expired was I recall having to practice dodge rolling to both the left and right during the tutorial.
This, coupled with the fact there wasn't really an actual world to explore, rather it was a just a big lobby with connections to multiple group only dungeons and I was gone in a week maybe.
Back then I would have been trying to create a Paladin assuming they had them, if not then some sort of hybrid thief perhaps.
Paladin is core to the game.
Also, That's really odd, because the only thing they have that is close to what you described is a skill called "Tumbling" which, LOL, is not something you would be doing as a paladin.
Maybe a Thief, but even then, personally I have never seen anyone use Tumble as a combat move, I have seen people use it to get through traps when the sadistic DM's opted to put the trap disarm box on the OTHER side of the trap, but that is about it.
and yah.. it's still just a big lobby with group dungeons.. but the lobby got really big over time.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
DDO does not have dodge rolling for you all you old farts.
Hold up there a moment.
I only played DDO at launch (before fire) and a big reason I left before the initial month expired was I recall having to practice dodge rolling to both the left and right during the tutorial.
This, coupled with the fact there wasn't really an actual world to explore, rather it was a just a big lobby with connections to multiple group only dungeons and I was gone in a week maybe.
Back then I would have been trying to create a Paladin assuming they had them, if not then some sort of hybrid thief perhaps.
yeah, i have no idea what you experienced, but there is no "dodge roll" in DDO. dodge is a stat, which affects how often mobs miss you when they try to attack you, but that's a passive thing, just like your AC... it's just built in. and yeah. like Ungood says, Paladin is a core free class.
the only "dodging" you can do in DDO is, like Ungood said in his wall-o-text above... is the "jump around like a jackrabbit on crack" tactic... which, i'll admit, i do this on my arcane archer. LOL
Different reasons for googlies to gain threat level other than healing or dpsing. You would have to make everyone a dpser with off specs of tank, healing, cc etc and be responsible for your own fighting etc. Tanks jump in to take some damage, caster repells or cc, archer transfer threat etc. If they just hit the closest person randomly then I guess the fights would have to have some sort of mechanics to it. Such as pressing the anti buster button at the right time, not standing in stuff, dodging, threat transfer etc. Not sure if it would work or how to implement it as an alternative to agro as agro would still be there.
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
If the AI is programmed to "win at all costs", there would be very little difference to me. Matter of fact, the AI would beat best of the best into the ground
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I have a question for all of you. If you raise the AI of NPCs in PvE, wouldnt that just become equivalent to PvP if AI gets more advanced?
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
Not exactly.
See in a PvP game, the other players are not there to make for a challenging and fun fight, they are there to kill their opponent, as fast and easy as they can, sin short, they are there to win, and have no other motive, an AI with that mindset to win, with no other motive would make for a overall very unenjoyable game, because simply put, computers can outperform us like nothing. This is also why MMO's that try to use PvP as content filler for what is mainly a PvE game don't work out too well.
An AI for an MMO, need to be designed to approach the game as being the Dungeon Master and Not Opposing Player, and thus is there to play the game WITH the players, to challenge them, to make the fights fun, not simply be there to kill and best them, like a PvP Game would be.
So, no, a True AI, would be a far superior opponent in an MMO, then another player, because the AI, would strive to challenge the players, changing it's tactics and approach depending on the kill and number of players it was facing, to give an engaging fight, that the outcome was uncertain till the end, as opposed to just jumping in and killing all in its path in a bloody rampage.
Can you imagine if say in a game like, oh to use a casuals paradise, GW2, and you had some AI controlling Shatter or the Claw of Jormag, as a player would? It would flying around the zone killing any and all who entered, that is assuming it was contained to the zone, otherwise it would just fly around and kill every single player in the game like nothing.
Can you imagine if an AI with the mentality of some egotistical PvP asshat, took over something like the Lich King, and could just stomp through the maps, how many players they could just destroy, and if you added in destructible worlds, that AI would just wreck the whole game.. that would be hilarious to watch.. it would also be watching the end of WoW as we know it.
No.. No.. No.. An AI also would not let their ego get to them, they would not let loss frustrate them, or have a need to win, like PvP players get way too obsessed about sometimes.
So if there was any hope to make an AI controlled MMO, the AI would need to approach the game as the Dungeon Master, not as another Player in a PvP Game, as that is the only reasonable way to make it work.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you mean "Dodge" as in run away and hope things miss you as your teammates try to pull agro while you flee in panic, it has that.
DDO also has direct blocking, where you attempt to stand your ground and deflect or mitigate damage with your shield or weapon, to be fair, this is far more effective if you use a shield, and nothing like a dodge ability.
And no one would want to play a Healer. lol
So it does have to be different from what Players would do. Besides, that would make it very predictable.
Once again, that's why I like the idea of randomness. Different tactics employed per encounter, and changed up during the encounter. That way it doesn't get boringly predictable.
Still, you want it to have some intelligent design so that the NPCs can put up a good fight. But also allow for "mistakes" by said NPCs.
So, random but weighted "die rolls" by circumstances.
Once upon a time....
"How to defeat Players. They are so predictable."
Once upon a time....
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
a game world with no NPC and only Player vs Player
would be the same as
a game world with advanced AI and no PvP.
These two would be one in the same. If people dont like FFA PvP MMOs, will they like a PvE MMO with advanced AI on this level?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Some MMO's it's super hard to know who does what, or how hard a fight will be based on appearance, class, and the only real targeting comes from what could at best be called Cutting, where you try to separate people from their group/squad, or target anyone that falls behind their main group, and then gang attack them, This commonly done in games like GW2's WvW. Their sPvP, does not have roles, so, ideally again, fights are often about teamwork against a single target, more than any real aggro management method.
In a game like DDO, where there are very direct roles, it can be very hard to target and take down a 'healer', not simply because they look exactly like the fighter or paladin (Full plate, Shield, Melee Weapon) but also because they might have enough AC, HP, and self healing to actually be the tank and shrug off your best hits like they are nothing, and the only reason they are not the tank is because they can't hold aggro or do decent DPS. So they stand there turtled in, being about the hardest, or second hardest, thing in the group to actually kill.
In direct PvP games like Eternal Crusade, which is kinda like Team Fortress, all things said and done, if I am playing Tactical or Assault, I will often target heavies first, doing anything I can to get close to them, often sneaking behind them, to cut them down, as they offer unparalleled ranged support, but are often very easy to kill in close combat. In a good EC game, they will have a Medic with them, who is no slouch in combat, and if the medic spots you, the heavies might respond fast enough to turn you into swiss cheese, that is assuming that the medic didn't just put their force axe through your skull all on their onezie and call it a day, however, I must admit, I love playing a Healer looking forward to killing the people coming to sneak my heavies.
*Trinity = Tank, Healers, DPS
Note-
-Tanks tend to be Melee Fighters.
-Tanks role is keeping attention off the more high valued assets, either through protection or attention seeking (aggro/threat).
-Healers focus on keeping Tank alive, but also the Group alive.
-DPS focus on killing, either Ranged or Melee
now how does this equate in PvP?
PvP Trinity Equivalency:
*PvP Healers = PvE Healers
*PvP DPS = PvE DPS
*PvP Tank = PvE Melee DPSers
Note-
-Healers in PvE and PvP do the same role. Keeping the group alive and their Tanks especially.
-DPS does the same role in PvE and PvP, which is killing stuff.
-Tanks are where things look different, but really isnt. Remember how I said how in PvE trinity, Tanks generally are Melee fighters. Well in PvP, Tanks also are Melee fighters, but they are built for Melee DPS killing enemies in close range. In PvP setting, they create "a Threat". Because unlike ranged DPS in PvP that can attack from a distance and out the way, Melee DPSers in PvP are close up and in your face, bursting you down while you trying to get to their healers. They will Burst you down with their Melee close range attacks and CCs, being as annoying as possible (hint the term TAUNT) comes from in its original DnD Table Top source of the term here. Taunting in PvE is the roleplay mechanical explanation of a character intentionally becoming annoying to enemies.
Melee DPSers in PvP do exactly that. Thats how they "TANK" for their group in PvP setting. The typical heavy armor and taunt skill are just mechanics to translate this same behavior for PvE AI, which doesnt experience fear or annoyance. but players do the same thing.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Which means there wouldn't be all the tricks to trap other Players with, the cheats, etc.
Once upon a time....
I mean "dodge." Running away is not dodging.
When I play DDO I tend to "jump" to the left or the right to avoid an attack. I'm asking if that actually does anything as to be honest it's hard to tell.
The game is so laggy for me that sometimes I swing a sword and it doesn't do anything until the server catches up.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
"Buy our game and lets see how long before we drive you out with our cool PKer AI."
"It didn't work when players were the PKers and looters, but we're confident that things will be different when they are NPCs that are killing and looting you, making your game play insufferable, at every turn."
Game name: "Insuffering Hallows"
Once upon a time....
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
- Designing the NPCs to have the exact same gear, skills, classes etc as the players
- Designing the AI to deliberately (randomly?) make errors: players are not perfect, therefore the AI shouldn't be perfect.
- Designing the AI to be subject to human psychology: we players make decisions based on emotions, rather than logic. And we all have different emotions and motivations, so there would need to be the same level of varience in the NPCs
I can't see all that happening.I only played DDO at launch (before fire) and a big reason I left before the initial month expired was I recall having to practice dodge rolling to both the left and right during the tutorial.
This, coupled with the fact there wasn't really an actual world to explore, rather it was a just a big lobby with connections to multiple group only dungeons and I was gone in a week maybe.
Back then I would have been trying to create a Paladin assuming they had them, if not then some sort of hybrid thief perhaps.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My main is a heavy tank build whose idea of action combat is to sprint straight in while holding down the trigger on my .50 cal MG, often running right through my targets as they explode into bloody pieces.
Annoying at times when I can't locate any of the remains to loot their corpses
Oh yeah, I will circle strafe hardened targets like the Scorch Queen but that's about as far as I go for movement.
.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Once upon a time....
Ok, first, sorry, this is going to be a lot of words, because you walked into one of the more advanced parts of combat in DDO, that a lot of modern games do not even offer.
While I have explained this in another post on this topic, I plan to go a bit more inadept here, because you play the game, and this is as good a time as any to lay this out.
In DDO you can legit side-step projectiles (Arrows, Bolts, Throwing Daggers, etc) and ray attacks (Cone of Cold, Fireball, Prismatic Ray, Etc) if you are paying attention and have the reflexes for it.
This is not the same as modern MMO Dodge Rolling, that is an ability to avoid damage, this is exactly as it sounds, you are side-stepping the shot, and this is because ranged attacks target the spot the player is in, let's call it a hit-box, when they are launched, but the player has a time delay generated by the distance between when the attack was started and when it will hit the player, and they can use this time delay to move out of that hit-box location, and thus avoid getting hit.
Ergo, Side Stepping the Arrow.
How they opt to move out of that hit box is up to them, weather they want to jump, strife, jump and strive, tumble, or whatever, or even if they think they have the reaction time to pull it off. This is not something everyone uses, nor do they have to, it's a totally optional tactic that some take advantage of and some don't.
Now, just to clear something up, only some attacks in DDO do not track the target once launched, however, like AD&D 3.x edition rules, some attacks do track a player, like for example, magic missile tracks you, because it says right in the spell description "A missile of magical energy darts forth and unerringly strikes its target" so you can jump, roll, tumble, flee, cry, whine, curl up into a ball and suck your thumb... none of it will matter, these missiles will hit you, because that is how the game works.
Same with direct targeted spells, IE: Finger of Death. The caster calls you as a target this just hits you, and no amount of caffeine induced button mashing will stop that, so you will need some other means to deal with those kinds of attacks and spells, Thankfully, healing spells work the same way, so a jumping jackrabbit player can still be healed by the stoic slow cleric that thinks a shield blocking is the shizzle of all defensives.
But even with that, spells still require Line of Sight, that means, you can duck behind walls so that a caster cannot target or cast on you, to the chagrin of many clerics when the barb runs down the hall and makes a left, and vanishes from LoS as they are trying to heal them.
This is a super handy tactic, because then the caster needs to come around the corner to cast on you, and hopefully you have planned for this and are ready to lay a beat down them when they get within range of your greatsword before they can do any real damage with their spells.
Tactics!
Ok back to motion and tracking. Now being able to move out of a hit-box, applies to both Mobs and PC's, so if the target moves, the attack will not follow them (like it does in GW2 for example) and has a chance to miss.
Now, we get how that works. As such, I will admit, yes jumping around like a jackrabbit on meth does in fact work to avoid getting hit because you are moving constantly out of the hit-box, and there are many players that swear by this tactic, and it has it's own cult following for it's effectiveness. I have seen it used with amazing success, and have nothing but absolute respect for this tactic and the players that can make it work, even if I do toss some subtle digs at it, I have nothing but love, admiration, respect for the players that can work this method.
With that said, it is exclusively a ranged players tactic, as it requires that they keep a distance between themselves and the mobs they wish to fight to keep that time delay between the attack and the hit, so they can move out of the Hit-box.
This means, endless kiting if the mob chases them.
With all that said, keep in mind that Jumping is optional, and often done because it generates move movement, and a greater chance to not be in the hit-box, personally, I think it's because the people that really get into that tactic are jacked on way too stimulants', as they all talk about being on 12th cup of coffee by the time I am sitting down to play with them on my 5th shot of whiskey, obviously we do not use the same tactics.
But the truth is, simply moving out of the hit box works, no matter how you achieve said goal, case in point, strifing works, but perhaps not as well, and not as well against many opponents which, getting swarmed, does tend to happen in DDO.
Now you mentioned "Swing your Sword" and this is where I need to potentially give you some bad news, jumping around to avoid getting hit is not a good tactic for a lot of Melee players, (it can work for some, but the build needs to be made in a way where that does work) but for the most part, it does not work, because keep in mind, as you try to move out of their hit-box, you also move them out of yours, so you end up missing them as much as you try to make them miss you, thus the more you move and jump around as a melee the more you can be reducing your effective DPS, and this can be by a huge amount depending on how you play.
So as a melee, to effectively hit mobs, sadly, for the most part, you're going to need to stand there and trade blows, embrace that as your lot in life playing DDO, moving as a melee is mainly done as a tactical move to keep mobs from flanking you, and perhaps to flank them, often your tactic is to keep moving in such a way that you keep the Mobs in your strike range to your front, do not let them box you in, get behind you, and the like. Sometimes moving to collect them up where you can use cleaves and great cleaves to hit larger groups or mobs.
Tactics can be a huge thing in DDO. We could also all be over geared milti-life TR's who have run the content 100's of times and chew through it like hungry beaver on some basswood.
But that is a more a who you group with thing.
Also, That's really odd, because the only thing they have that is close to what you described is a skill called "Tumbling" which, LOL, is not something you would be doing as a paladin.
Maybe a Thief, but even then, personally I have never seen anyone use Tumble as a combat move, I have seen people use it to get through traps when the sadistic DM's opted to put the trap disarm box on the OTHER side of the trap, but that is about it.
and yah.. it's still just a big lobby with group dungeons.. but the lobby got really big over time.
yeah, i have no idea what you experienced, but there is no "dodge roll" in DDO. dodge is a stat, which affects how often mobs miss you when they try to attack you, but that's a passive thing, just like your AC... it's just built in. and yeah. like Ungood says, Paladin is a core free class.
the only "dodging" you can do in DDO is, like Ungood said in his wall-o-text above... is the "jump around like a jackrabbit on crack" tactic... which, i'll admit, i do this on my arcane archer. LOL
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
See in a PvP game, the other players are not there to make for a challenging and fun fight, they are there to kill their opponent, as fast and easy as they can, sin short, they are there to win, and have no other motive, an AI with that mindset to win, with no other motive would make for a overall very unenjoyable game, because simply put, computers can outperform us like nothing. This is also why MMO's that try to use PvP as content filler for what is mainly a PvE game don't work out too well.
An AI for an MMO, need to be designed to approach the game as being the Dungeon Master and Not Opposing Player, and thus is there to play the game WITH the players, to challenge them, to make the fights fun, not simply be there to kill and best them, like a PvP Game would be.
So, no, a True AI, would be a far superior opponent in an MMO, then another player, because the AI, would strive to challenge the players, changing it's tactics and approach depending on the kill and number of players it was facing, to give an engaging fight, that the outcome was uncertain till the end, as opposed to just jumping in and killing all in its path in a bloody rampage.
Can you imagine if say in a game like, oh to use a casuals paradise, GW2, and you had some AI controlling Shatter or the Claw of Jormag, as a player would? It would flying around the zone killing any and all who entered, that is assuming it was contained to the zone, otherwise it would just fly around and kill every single player in the game like nothing.
Can you imagine if an AI with the mentality of some egotistical PvP asshat, took over something like the Lich King, and could just stomp through the maps, how many players they could just destroy, and if you added in destructible worlds, that AI would just wreck the whole game.. that would be hilarious to watch.. it would also be watching the end of WoW as we know it.
No.. No.. No.. An AI also would not let their ego get to them, they would not let loss frustrate them, or have a need to win, like PvP players get way too obsessed about sometimes.
So if there was any hope to make an AI controlled MMO, the AI would need to approach the game as the Dungeon Master, not as another Player in a PvP Game, as that is the only reasonable way to make it work.