Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Wants to Know if They Should Cater to Competitive, Casual, or Bit of Bo

System

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Wants to Know if They Should Cater to Competitive, Casual, or Bit of Both | MMORPG.com

The folks behind Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen want your input into whether they should cater towards competitive players, casual players, or a mix of both.

Read the full story here

Sovrath

Is that really the case?

It seems that the post is just someone on the forums and not a representative from the Pantheon Dev team. The title of this story makes it seem that a rep is the person who started the discussion.

Finvega

I was going to say, a little late to be asking that question. But if it isn't from the dev's then what's the story?

achesoma

Sovrath said:

Is that really the case?



It seems that the post is just someone on the forums and not a representative from the Pantheon Dev team. The title of this story makes it seem that a rep is the person who started the discussion.

Yeah, they do this every week. The devs post a question on Twitter about twice a week based on a forum hot topic.

Here is the original thread going on now.

https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12863/unpopular-opinion-an-mmorpg-must-cater-to-the-competitive

saker

Dear-god(s) NO!, -NEVER- cater to the "competitive" player, that way lies madness & utter RUIN.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Iselin

IMO high end competitive PvE is not even native to the MMO genre.

These games all have their roots in tabletop RPGs where it never was about meta-gaming or playing all the borderline exploitative angles to get an edge.

These are supposed to be games where people come to play together with players of all different types of abilities. You stay there if the game is interesting and attractive and there's plenty to do by yourself or with friends and acquaintances.

High end competitive raiding with completion time leaderboards, world firsts and all of that came later as a gimmick to retain those who had seen it all and done it all and keep them subbed.

It attracts a different type of player that I don't think is all that compatible with the original MMO player base. It creates an environment where it's all about speed runs and DPS meters where the stop and smell the flowers crowd is belittled and made to feel uncomfortable.

So yeah... fuck them. Let them go back to the FPS shooters and E-sports where they belong and make MMOS for regular folks great again

achesoma

The OP's context of "competitve" gameplay seems to equate it to hardcore raiding. Which, imo, is antithetical to the goals of Pantheon.

From the FAQ. 

Are there raids in Pantheon?

Yes, there is raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding.

Given that the purpose of Pantheon is a group-centric, challenging game, it seems entirely unnecessary to have a "hardcore" segment. And if the game breaks down into various segments like modern MMOs, then it's inevitable one segment will end up with superior rewards. The superior reward segment is then all that matters to the game.

Albatroes

IS it weird that this question just made me lose almost all interest in the game? It just made me feel like they suddenly dont know who they want to market the game towards....

TwoTubes

Yikes! this article should not have been written.

It's referring to a post by a forum member (a new member at that).

Kilsin, the community manager, posts random questions and highlights certain forum posts to pass the time and interact with the community.

Kilsin has made it VERY clear over the years that these posts don't mean that is the direction VR is taking things or that they even agree.

It is just to encourage participation. It doesn't come off as if the author understands that and if they don't even follow the game that closely (which is a very low bar) they definitely should not be writing articles about it.

Vorthanion

Man, I sure hope this is just hypothetical theory crafting. If VR is already wavering on their vision for the game's main direction, then I will most likely not like the results.

Slapshot1188

Maybe next week they can ask us if Pantheon should be Tab target or twitch combat.
And the week after they can ask if it should have classes or be classless...

Then in a few months we can tackle the hard stuff like should it be Fantasy based or Sci fi or even a Western...   (I hear Vikings are hot today...)

goldwheat

As with all things related to Pantheon after 7 years, everything is still TBD (to be determined).
Especially basic things like their target demographic.

Visionary Realms can't design themselves out of a paper bag, after 7 years. 2020: " Hey, let's STOP hard-coding everything into the client after 6 years." Absolutely absurd development methodology.

[mod edit]

Sovrath

achesoma said:

Sovrath said:

Is that really the case?



It seems that the post is just someone on the forums and not a representative from the Pantheon Dev team. The title of this story makes it seem that a rep is the person who started the discussion.

Yeah, they do this every week. The devs post a question on Twitter about twice a week based on a forum hot topic.

Here is the original thread going on now.

https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12863/unpopular-opinion-an-mmorpg-must-cater-to-the-competitive

So Akilae is a dev?

Mendel

achesoma said:

Sovrath said:

Is that really the case?



It seems that the post is just someone on the forums and not a representative from the Pantheon Dev team. The title of this story makes it seem that a rep is the person who started the discussion.

Yeah, they do this every week. The devs post a question on Twitter about twice a week based on a forum hot topic.

Here is the original thread going on now.

https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12863/unpopular-opinion-an-mmorpg-must-cater-to-the-competitive

if the devs are posing roughly every week on topics such as this, then this is a group of developers that don't have enough to do.  I'm with @Sovrath here, this seems more likely sparked by a forum member.  In either case, it's not news that MMORPG.com should be discussing.

And posting a link to a lively discussion thread on another site is a great way to drive traffic from this site to another.  That's not news, @MMORPG.com, that's self-defeating.

achesoma

Sovrath said:

achesoma said:

Sovrath said:

Is that really the case?



It seems that the post is just someone on the forums and not a representative from the Pantheon Dev team. The title of this story makes it seem that a rep is the person who started the discussion.

Yeah, they do this every week. The devs post a question on Twitter about twice a week based on a forum hot topic.

Here is the original thread going on now.

https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12863/unpopular-opinion-an-mmorpg-must-cater-to-the-competitive

So Akilae is a dev?

No and I'm glad they aren't lol. Kilsin, the community manager, will pick a hot topic forum post started by the community then pose that same question on Twitter. It's merely to keep the community engaged as TwoTubes pointed out.

achesoma

Mendel said:

achesoma said:

Sovrath said:

Is that really the case?



It seems that the post is just someone on the forums and not a representative from the Pantheon Dev team. The title of this story makes it seem that a rep is the person who started the discussion.

Yeah, they do this every week. The devs post a question on Twitter about twice a week based on a forum hot topic.

Here is the original thread going on now.

https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12863/unpopular-opinion-an-mmorpg-must-cater-to-the-competitive

if the devs are posing roughly every week on topics such as this, then this is a group of developers that don't have enough to do.

It's the community manager doing community manager stuff, such as engaging with the community. He isn't designing or programming anything.

kjempff

Obviously They are not actually asking that question; this was decided a long time ago. The reason it is brought up is because those who want the "other Everquest" still hope they will get that part of Everquest that they enjoy.
And if you haven't paid attention, they go for the casual over competetive.

There are basically two oldschool Everquest players, those who enjoy the casual and simpler early Everquest, and those who enjoy the much more advanced (and also somewhat competetive, though I would say comparative is more correct) that started with Luclin expansion (with Velious as the warmup). You could call them the project1999 crowd and the PoP era crowd if you like.

Surpricingly, considering it is the same game, these two "factions" value quite different things in the game, though also sharing some. From my perspective as a PoP era crowd, I think that the project1999 mentality is stuck and the game can not evolve from that mindset, while the PoP era was the only way the game could expand .. And it did so much, in every detail, complexity, tactical and everything, PoP(2005) is literally 100 times the game compared to classic Everquest as it was in 1999.

Why all the talk about Everquest? Because Pantheon is born from the project1999 mindset and most of the concepts are taken from early Everquest. Its backers are the project1999 crowd, and maybe some PoP era who still hope that they will get some of their Everquest (who are the sources of such discussions)..they won't get what they hope for.

Viper482

Gotta find a balance if you want to keep people around.

TwoTubes

kjempff said:

Obviously They are not actually asking that question; this was decided a long time ago. The reason it is brought up is because those who want the "other Everquest" still hope they will get that part of Everquest that they enjoy.

And if you haven't paid attention, they go for the casual over competetive.



There are basically two oldschool Everquest players, those who enjoy the casual and simpler early Everquest, and those who enjoy the much more advanced (and also somewhat competetive, though I would say comparative is more correct) that started with Luclin expansion (with Velious as the warmup). You could call them the project1999 crowd and the PoP era crowd if you like.



Surpricingly, considering it is the same game, these two "factions" value quite different things in the game, though also sharing some. From my perspective as a PoP era crowd, I think that the project1999 mentality is stuck and the game can not evolve from that mindset, while the PoP era was the only way the game could expand .. And it did so much, in every detail, complexity, tactical and everything, PoP(2005) is literally 100 times the game compared to classic Everquest as it was in 1999.



Why all the talk about Everquest? Because Pantheon is born from the project1999 mindset and most of the concepts are taken from early Everquest. Its backers are the project1999 crowd, and maybe some PoP era who still hope that they will get some of their Everquest (who are the sources of such discussions)..they won't get what they hope for.

This is quite a different perspective from most people. Also PoP released in 2002...not 2005. (that is a huge difference as far as mmorpg history is concerned)

Palebane

The players that play miltiplayer games these days are mostly hyper-competitive, so it really doesn’t matter who the devs try to carer to, imo. The novelty of the internet has long worn off, so the communities just eat each other alive one way or another. Total anonymity with minimal consequence.

kjempff

TwoTubes said:

kjempff said:

Obviously They are not actually asking that question; this was decided a long time ago. The reason it is brought up is because those who want the "other Everquest" still hope they will get that part of Everquest that they enjoy.


And if you haven't paid attention, they go for the casual over competetive.





There are basically two oldschool Everquest players, those who enjoy the casual and simpler early Everquest, and those who enjoy the much more advanced (and also somewhat competetive, though I would say comparative is more correct) that started with Luclin expansion (with Velious as the warmup). You could call them the project1999 crowd and the PoP era crowd if you like.





Surpricingly, considering it is the same game, these two "factions" value quite different things in the game, though also sharing some. From my perspective as a PoP era crowd, I think that the project1999 mentality is stuck and the game can not evolve from that mindset, while the PoP era was the only way the game could expand .. And it did so much, in every detail, complexity, tactical and everything, PoP(2005) is literally 100 times the game compared to classic Everquest as it was in 1999.





Why all the talk about Everquest? Because Pantheon is born from the project1999 mindset and most of the concepts are taken from early Everquest. Its backers are the project1999 crowd, and maybe some PoP era who still hope that they will get some of their Everquest (who are the sources of such discussions)..they won't get what they hope for.

This is quite a different perspective from most people. Also PoP released in 2002...not 2005. (that is a huge difference as far as mmorpg history is concerned)

The perspective is from observation and playing tlp, emus a lot over the years. The p99 purists are very vocal, but they do not represent "most people".
About PoP era, I am aware of the years of expansions.. and if we consider PoP era to include LDoN we are talking 2004, if we include GoD that only the super elite could play which left the rest in PoP era.. Well 2005 may be pushing it a bit but still

achesoma

Torval said:

achesoma said:

Mendel said:

achesoma said:

Sovrath said:

Is that really the case?





It seems that the post is just someone on the forums and not a representative from the Pantheon Dev team. The title of this story makes it seem that a rep is the person who started the discussion.

Yeah, they do this every week. The devs post a question on Twitter about twice a week based on a forum hot topic.



Here is the original thread going on now.



https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12863/unpopular-opinion-an-mmorpg-must-cater-to-the-competitive

if the devs are posing roughly every week on topics such as this, then this is a group of developers that don't have enough to do.

It's the community manager doing community manager stuff, such as engaging with the community. He isn't designing or programming anything.

I think this is a dangerous sort of community discussion to encourage. It is the kind of thing that creates or empowers vocal tribal groups to bandwagon on the developers and rest of the community. The last thing the MMO genre needs is to encourage more "welfare epic" gatekeeping. It has virtually ruined the genre and distilled it down to a bunch of scrubby WoW wannabees.

Just an opinion here, but they should be encouraging community discussion about relevant designs and content that actually apply to their game. They're either feeding the hardcore elitists false hope or at best dividing their community over irrelevant topics.

I'm not typically one to discourage discussion of varying opinions but I think you're correct. It does seems counterintuitive to hold discussions on features not planned to be implemented for the game.

Wizardry

Man there are so many layers to this and again just tells me that someone or a few leads simply don't get it at all.
Longevity can be achieved many ways but you FIRST need to get the stupid EQ/Wowmentality out of your head.
Again this would take way too long to fully describe what goes on in these mmorpg's and how to design them.

FFXi has had 20 years of longevity and you do it by keeping all zones relevant for as long as possible which a multi class system does.plus you create crafting in a way that uses ALL zones including noob zones so again it keeps zones relevant instead of the LINEAR progression we see too often.
These should be acting like living worlds and not zones where you just move from one to the next.
Grouping is fine but the term Hardcore has no place at all because it means different thigns to different people.

FFXI again the mmorpg that did it better than the reat had grouping in it's design but also added the Beastmaster and Summoner classes to solo if you wanted.The grouping came from incentives,bonus xp or faster killing .Later added in npc's/mercs to allow players to fill in the group need once the zones finally became unused and new players needed help.

You don't have to wait ,you could add in mercs from day 1.the difference is real players think better "usually" and you could even create a sort of mini collection game from collecting lots of mercs.Geesh idk how many FFXI had in total but it's likely around 60-70+ or so.


Perhaps the most important thing to do is keep RMT out of the game otherwise it will break the economy in a bad way and ruin the game.Rare spawns NEED to be rare and not isntance crap rinse and repeat everyone goes home a winner.
The FOCUS should NOT be on those rares or Bosses but on simple fun grouping game play while not completely. alienating soloists.

Short version,just study what FFXI did over the years,it WORKS.

LamiaCritter

The competitive? Fuck no. Don't let this MMO be tainted by the "competitive" community, I beg you. It won't bring anything productive and will just worsen the community.

Yes, I am severely jaded.

Xatsh

Look at what FFXI and EQ did back in the day and do that. I lean toward do what FFXI did as they basically did what EQ did but a lot better.

I do not see "Competition" to be what keeps mmos alive. Because that competition dies out as soon as someone "Wins". What keeps games alive is lasting content. Aka long lived content and larger quantity of content.

Endgame players will play as long as progression is to be had. Once they "cap" they will take breaks or leave permantly. Casuals on the other hand are the ones who play long term and can be convinced to keep playing by giving them shinnies in game.