LOTRO Brawler class datamined.

Cuddleheart

I thought this was kinda interesting.

KnightFalz

So, it's budget Iron-Fist? It's different, anyway.

I don't recall that kind of thing from the books, but it has been a long time since I've read them, so whatever.

That element aside, the class in itself may be interesting.

Scot

I have seen people grasping at Tulkas, but he was a wrestler. It just has nothing to do with LotR lore. 

Nebless

I don't know if it was Tulkas like Scot said, but from earlier posts the class seems to be based on a single line in one of the lore 'histories'.  Pretty weak no matter how you look at it.

Can't see how it's going to be all that popular unless it's more along the lines of the old SWG Teras Kasi Artist.  Never did anything with that class, but I know it was very popular.

Theocritus

I guess its a good sign that they are still trying to add things to the game.....

Horusra

There is to an extent Helm Hammerhand.

Scot

Nebless said:

I don't know if it was Tulkas like Scot said, but from earlier posts the class seems to be based on a single line in one of the lore 'histories'.  Pretty weak no matter how you look at it.

Can't see how it's going to be all that popular unless it's more along the lines of the old SWG Teras Kasi Artist.  Never did anything with that class, but I know it was very popular.

I would be keen to know what line that was...misinterpretation ahoy!  

Nebless

Scot said:

Nebless said:

I don't know if it was Tulkas like Scot said, but from earlier posts the class seems to be based on a single line in one of the lore 'histories'.  Pretty weak no matter how you look at it.

Can't see how it's going to be all that popular unless it's more along the lines of the old SWG Teras Kasi Artist.  Never did anything with that class, but I know it was very popular.

I would be keen to know what line that was...misinterpretation ahoy!  

It was something vague; 'Elfsillyness liked to use his hands' or some such.  Not much to hang a whole class on.

Po_gg

Nebless said:

I don't know if it was Tulkas like Scot said, but from earlier posts the class seems to be based on a single line in one of the lore 'histories'.  Pretty weak no matter how you look at it.

Not just a single line, but yep, pretty weak and definitely not something to base a class upon.

It's worse than rune-keepers or beornings were, both from lore as well from mechanic point of view...  and those two weren't on very strong foundations either.

"Let's put a proper Wow caster in the game" and "Let's put a Wow druid in the game" were also dumb and unasked for (ok, actually some people wanted a caster), but this one is off even by SSG's (pretty low) standards.

Players are suggesting class ideas since years, some of those ideas are pretty good actually, but nobody wanted a brawler - as it was said numerous times since the very first announcement.

Punching wywerns and trolls, fist-fighting the balrog? Looks like they wanna turn the game into a joke.

(Don't get me wrong, I still love the game, but to do so is tougher each year since the whole SSG rebranding. It's difficult to find any good, or at least decent changes from the last years... the wedding was nice, and this new mini-area next to Bree is ok-ish probably.

At least there's the entire game before Mordor, that's still fun)

Scot

Po_gg said:

Nebless said:

I don't know if it was Tulkas like Scot said, but from earlier posts the class seems to be based on a single line in one of the lore 'histories'.  Pretty weak no matter how you look at it.

Not just a single line, but yep, pretty weak and definitely not something to base a class upon.

It's worse than rune-keepers or beornings were, both from lore as well from mechanic point of view...  and those two weren't on very strong foundations either.

"Let's put a proper Wow caster in the game" and "Let's put a Wow druid in the game" were also dumb and unasked for (ok, actually some people wanted a caster), but this one is off even by SSG's (pretty low) standards.

Players are suggesting class ideas since years, some of those ideas are pretty good actually, but nobody wanted a brawler - as it was said numerous times since the very first announcement.

Punching wywerns and trolls, fist-fighting the balrog? Looks like they wanna turn the game into a joke.

(Don't get me wrong, I still love the game, but to do so is tougher each year since the whole SSG rebranding. It's difficult to find any good, or at least decent changes from the last years... the wedding was nice, and this new mini-area next to Bree is ok-ish probably.

At least there's the entire game before Mordor, that's still fun)

Po_gg said:

Nebless said:

I don't know if it was Tulkas like Scot said, but from earlier posts the class seems to be based on a single line in one of the lore 'histories'.  Pretty weak no matter how you look at it.

Not just a single line, but yep, pretty weak and definitely not something to base a class upon.

It's worse than rune-keepers or beornings were, both from lore as well from mechanic point of view...  and those two weren't on very strong foundations either.

"Let's put a proper Wow caster in the game" and "Let's put a Wow druid in the game" were also dumb and unasked for (ok, actually some people wanted a caster), but this one is off even by SSG's (pretty low) standards.

Players are suggesting class ideas since years, some of those ideas are pretty good actually, but nobody wanted a brawler - as it was said numerous times since the very first announcement.

Punching wywerns and trolls, fist-fighting the balrog? Looks like they wanna turn the game into a joke.

(Don't get me wrong, I still love the game, but to do so is tougher each year since the whole SSG rebranding. It's difficult to find any good, or at least decent changes from the last years... the wedding was nice, and this new mini-area next to Bree is ok-ish probably.

At least there's the entire game before Mordor, that's still fun)

We have had a decade if not more of finding the bits we like in a MMORPG and playing them while ignoring all the other crap they throw at us.

FrodoFragins

Scot said:

I have seen people grasping at Tulkas, but he was a wrestler. It just has nothing to do with LotR lore. 

It's highly unlikely he just wrestled Melkor to submission.  It said he wielded no weapon, not that he didn't use his fists.

As far as lore friendly goes, I'd say Brawler is more lore friendly than dwarfs using the power of runes in battle or Loremasters going around with these as fighting pets.  They do have to stretch things to work in an MMO. 

Scot

FrodoFragins said:

Scot said:

I have seen people grasping at Tulkas, but he was a wrestler. It just has nothing to do with LotR lore. 

It's highly unlikely he just wrestled Melkor to submission.  It said he wielded no weapon, not that he didn't use his fists.

As far as lore friendly goes, I'd say Brawler is more lore friendly than dwarfs using the power of runes in battle or Loremasters going around with these as fighting pets.  They do have to stretch things to work in an MMO. 

"Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age."

What is wrong with one god who was known to love wrestling using wrestling to bind another to a chain and thus imprisoning him? Well apart from having to do the complex animations where an avatar took down an NPC that is? That's why they have a Brawler and not a Wrestler. Also you are right there have been bigger lore breakers than this but that does not excuse it. Like I said carry on playing and ignore the crap they throw at us, all MMOs today are like that, Lotro is actually one of the best ones for lore.

Po_gg

FrodoFragins said:

As far as lore friendly goes, I'd say Brawler is more lore friendly than dwarfs using the power of runes in battle or Loremasters going around with these as fighting pets.  [goofy pic]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Actually I did already, above

Po_gg said:

It's worse than rune-keepers or beornings were, both from lore as well from mechanic point of view...  and those two weren't on very strong foundations either.

Lore-masters were great, both the lore backing and also the implementation: throw burning ember, support by animal friends like Radagast, etc. It's a nice representation of magic in LotR.

Yep, bog-guardians look silly, but that ain't a lore-master issue, the more general mob version looks just as silly.

Rune-keepers also had a decent lore backing, runes are powerful and important, and there are several scholars, even though not running around the world.

Implementation on the other hand was fully whack, from the lore perspective. Just because some people wanted a proper, Wow-like magic user (instead of lore-masters) Turbine added this pyromaniac with frost breath and a diarrhea so bad they keep farting lightning bolts everywhere...

Small bonus points for the gameplay (attunement system was nice), and for the fact it actually was needed for the class diversity, a second healer next to minstrels.

Beorning, the lore backing is obvious, with some issues (at the game's time they didn't leave the Vale's vicinity).

Implementation was decent, except the same issue above, bears running around Bree is silly, and in this case even the class wasn't that much necessary.

Gameplay is fun though, bear form especially, and the wrath management.

Compared to those, brawler has no lore backing whatsoever.

It ain't needed for class diversity either, we have 3 tanks and an off-tank already in the game, they should rather fix the guardians instead (which they've fucked up for the sake of the temporary (3 months, FFS) pvp server...)

And it just won't fit the game, not only the theme (LotR doesn't have stupid Wow kung-fu monks, neither martial artists), but with mechanics too.

What's with the LI system? Will they find among the drops legendary mithril knuckleduster of the First Age?

What's with the crafting?

Some assume they will use gauntlets, well, what's then with the glove slot?

Not to forget the sheer stupidity of fist-fighting balrogs or dragons. Or that nobody asked for this.

Most likely they just wanted something to sell with the Gundabad expansion, to justify the $130+ pricetag, and monetisation overruled any sane reasoning about the game's world or how the game works overall.

Horusra

"Shortly after Yule 2758, Prince Háma accompanied by a small force went out to search for food, but he and his men were lost in a blizzard and never seen again. The Hornburg held a large war-horn, and whenever it was blown, Helm would break through the Dunlending ranks, slaying many of their men. Helm's enemies came to fear him greatly during this time and it was believed that he became so fierce and terrible, that he slew many of them with his bare hands. It was also believed that when he grew hungry and had no food he ate men."

"Helm was called Hammerhand because of his great strength and prowess with his fists: he was known to fight barehanded. This is sometimes attributed to a superstition that if "he used no weapon no weapon would upon bite him".[1][2]"

Scot

Horusra said:

"Shortly after Yule 2758, Prince Háma accompanied by a small force went out to search for food, but he and his men were lost in a blizzard and never seen again. The Hornburg held a large war-horn, and whenever it was blown, Helm would break through the Dunlending ranks, slaying many of their men. Helm's enemies came to fear him greatly during this time and it was believed that he became so fierce and terrible, that he slew many of them with his bare hands. It was also believed that when he grew hungry and had no food he ate men."

"Helm was called Hammerhand because of his great strength and prowess with his fists: he was known to fight barehanded. This is sometimes attributed to a superstition that if "he used no weapon no weapon would upon bite him".[1][2]"

Interesting, I am more inclined to believe Helm could box than Tulkas. But the idea of boxing is something that seems missing from Tolkien, I would accept the class coming from tavern brawlers before I could believe a King of Rohan was a boxer. But certainly if you want to try for a lore justification this is on much better ground.

Horusra

Scot said:

Horusra said:

"Shortly after Yule 2758, Prince Háma accompanied by a small force went out to search for food, but he and his men were lost in a blizzard and never seen again. The Hornburg held a large war-horn, and whenever it was blown, Helm would break through the Dunlending ranks, slaying many of their men. Helm's enemies came to fear him greatly during this time and it was believed that he became so fierce and terrible, that he slew many of them with his bare hands. It was also believed that when he grew hungry and had no food he ate men."

"Helm was called Hammerhand because of his great strength and prowess with his fists: he was known to fight barehanded. This is sometimes attributed to a superstition that if "he used no weapon no weapon would upon bite him".[1][2]"

Interesting, I am more inclined to believe Helm could box than Tulkas. But the idea of boxing is something that seems missing from Tolkien, I would accept the class coming from tavern brawlers before I could believe a King of Rohan was a boxer. But certainly if you want to try for a lore justification this is on much better ground.

Believe there are some note that people believed he was a frost troll for the way he killed people....so sounds less like boxing, wrestling, or martial arts and more like ripping people apart like a Star Wars Wookiee.

Horusra

Po_gg said:

Nebless said:

I don't know if it was Tulkas like Scot said, but from earlier posts the class seems to be based on a single line in one of the lore 'histories'.  Pretty weak no matter how you look at it.

Not just a single line, but yep, pretty weak and definitely not something to base a class upon.

It's worse than rune-keepers or beornings were, both from lore as well from mechanic point of view...  and those two weren't on very strong foundations either.

"Let's put a proper Wow caster in the game" and "Let's put a Wow druid in the game" were also dumb and unasked for (ok, actually some people wanted a caster), but this one is off even by SSG's (pretty low) standards.

Players are suggesting class ideas since years, some of those ideas are pretty good actually, but nobody wanted a brawler - as it was said numerous times since the very first announcement.

Punching wywerns and trolls, fist-fighting the balrog? Looks like they wanna turn the game into a joke.

(Don't get me wrong, I still love the game, but to do so is tougher each year since the whole SSG rebranding. It's difficult to find any good, or at least decent changes from the last years... the wedding was nice, and this new mini-area next to Bree is ok-ish probably.

At least there's the entire game before Mordor, that's still fun)

Any of these classes fighting a Balrog is a joke....Gandolf died to kill one.  One killed or drove off an entire Dwarven kingdom.  

WhiteLantern

Well, Middle Earth is actually a pretty boring place, as places go. It may ideed be dangerous going out your door, but aside from that whole "ring business", the world needed better fleshing.
It's too bad McKiernan's follow-up work got scrapped, but at least he was able to repurpose it and provide us a truly living world to experience.
Don't take this as a slight on Tolkien's work, it's not. I'm a rather big fan of that whole "ring business". It's too bad it took so long for his world to gain acceptance. He could have given us so much more.
But then we wouldn't be able to argue about such trivial, lore-destroying tidbits.

Po_gg

I know it's about Helm, what I was saying

Po_gg said:

Not just a single line, but yep, pretty weak and definitely not something to base a class upon.

It's one man, let alone a king (with a whole army around him), who went into battle once against other men, without a weapon.

Kinda like how medieval kings and generals showed prowress and courage, and marched into battle without helmet or shield.

Then at Helm's Deep he went out on raids (again with an escort of warriors), and it was the belief he slew the enemies barehanded and feasted on them.

A tad bit thin and vague for backing up an entire class, ain't it? To countless random characters of different races run around and punching everything they see?

Just because Helm was smacking an envoy once, who allegedly died shortly after ( -> powerful fist), and then later marched into battle without a weapon...

What's next, the logger/brancher class, since one single fella defended himself once with an oaken branch he found on the floor?

Horusra

WhiteLantern said:

Well, Middle Earth is actually a pretty boring place, as places go. It may ideed be dangerous going out your door, but aside from that whole "ring business", the world needed better fleshing.
It's too bad McKiernan's follow-up work got scrapped, but at least he was able to repurpose it and provide us a truly living world to experience.
Don't take this as a slight on Tolkien's work, it's not. I'm a rather big fan of that whole "ring business". It's too bad it took so long for his world to gain acceptance. He could have given us so much more.
But then we wouldn't be able to argue about such trivial, lore-destroying tidbits.

There is a lot more than just the "ring business".  While his other works are short tales, histories, and notes he wrote he fleshed out a lot of the area that the "ring business" happens in and its history.  Once you get beyond that to the Eastern and Southern areas there is a lot of vagueness.

FrodoFragins

Scot said:

FrodoFragins said:

Scot said:

I have seen people grasping at Tulkas, but he was a wrestler. It just has nothing to do with LotR lore. 

It's highly unlikely he just wrestled Melkor to submission.  It said he wielded no weapon, not that he didn't use his fists.

As far as lore friendly goes, I'd say Brawler is more lore friendly than dwarfs using the power of runes in battle or Loremasters going around with these as fighting pets.  They do have to stretch things to work in an MMO. 

"Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age."

What is wrong with one god who was known to love wrestling using wrestling to bind another to a chain and thus imprisoning him? Well apart from having to do the complex animations where an avatar took down an NPC that is? That's why they have a Brawler and not a Wrestler. Also you are right there have been bigger lore breakers than this but that does not excuse it. Like I said carry on playing and ignore the crap they throw at us, all MMOs today are like that, Lotro is actually one of the best ones for lore.

What would tulkas do when facing two strong opponents?  Wrestle one and hope the other stands on the side waiting?  It's unlikely that he wasn't capable of using his fists is all.

As an archetype, brawlers pretty much fit into any RPG.  You just have to ignore some of the glaring weaknesses of bringing brass knuckles to fight a wizard or a dude in armor

  

FrodoFragins

WhiteLantern said:

Well, Middle Earth is actually a pretty boring place, as places go. It may ideed be dangerous going out your door, but aside from that whole "ring business", the world needed better fleshing.
It's too bad McKiernan's follow-up work got scrapped, but at least he was able to repurpose it and provide us a truly living world to experience.
Don't take this as a slight on Tolkien's work, it's not. I'm a rather big fan of that whole "ring business". It's too bad it took so long for his world to gain acceptance. He could have given us so much more.
But then we wouldn't be able to argue about such trivial, lore-destroying tidbits.

McKiernan's continuation was scrapped because the estate was never going to let him play in tolkien's world.  He just wrote it anyway.

Tolkien did contemplate a sequel that would be more of an adventure story.  It would involve cults that rose up to worship/honor Sauron.

Personally, I'm happy with all of the teases Tolkien gave us.  the alternative of say the Star Wars extended universe that tries to explain ever last tidbit ruins the mystery.

Iselin

Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Steven Segal, Anderson Silva, George St-Pierre, Rhonda Rousey.... feel free to use any of those names if you want for your brawler.

Just helping out

Po_gg

Torval said:

Lore went out the window day 1 when Hobbits went adventuring en-masse, masses of dwarves and elves hung out in Bree town, and a hundred other completely lore-breaking details. If we went by canon the LotRO wouldn't even be a game.

That's apples and oranges... different medium, there are obviously differences.

Hell, about the hopscotch the narrative needs to take in MMORPG format there was an entire course... (how we all walked with Frodo in Rivendell, or how you can visit Isengard, then it's flooded, then it's whole again, etc.)

But there's a difference on the aim/purpose of those bends. It's fine, or at least justifiable when it's for alignment of the medium's format and set - like the adventuring hobbits you mentioned, since what's the alternative for that, limit it to only 10 players can roll a hobbit per server? Or limit them to the Shire? That's not how the genre works...

That's why I listed above both the pros and the cons, like rune-keepers are fit the lore, was needed for class diversity, but the actual implementation was utterly stupid and lore-breaking.

Or beornings in the lore, just not in the game's time, so while the class is fun and could fit the lore (as session play, defending the Vale for example), the original idea of it makes it lore-breaking.

The issue with the brawler is, it has nothing on the pro side. It ain't even lore-breaking, since it has almost no ties to the lore whatsoever. It's completely off, and has no fit in the game, except that SSG wants to monetise it. That's how I meant it's worse than the previous ones.

A closer example could be the high-elves, those were also added only for monetisation (justify the overpriced expansion, and sell race change later separately too), but brawler is worse even than that, since high-elves are in the lore, and a handful of them probably were in Middle-earth at that time.

Lore-breaking since they wouldn't chase wolves and orcs and meddle with such things, but at least there's some lore to break. The brawler has none.

It's nothing else but the new expansion should be priced high so they need something, a new class can get high PR reach ("after 7 years we add a new class to the game!"), and as Frodo said "As an archetype, brawlers pretty much fit into any RPG."

Not into LotR, but hey, there was that one mention of Helm, and money talks, right?

Scot

Torval said:

Lore went out the window day 1 when Hobbits went adventuring en-masse, masses of dwarves and elves hung out in Bree town, and a hundred other completely lore-breaking details. If we went by canon the LotRO wouldn't even be a game.

If dwarves and humans entering Lothlorien in droves wasn't enough to send you packing; or humans fighting a balrog of all things; or all the liberties taken in every zone from Celondim to Moria; then why would a few loose interpretations of classes raise any sort question? All of the things added are at least thematically plausible even if they completely break canon.

Yes but that was necessary to have a game, players have to be able to get into zones. Even if the game really needs a new class, it does not have to be one that defies lore.

FrodoFragins said:

Scot said:

FrodoFragins said:

Scot said:

I have seen people grasping at Tulkas, but he was a wrestler. It just has nothing to do with LotR lore. 

It's highly unlikely he just wrestled Melkor to submission.  It said he wielded no weapon, not that he didn't use his fists.

As far as lore friendly goes, I'd say Brawler is more lore friendly than dwarfs using the power of runes in battle or Loremasters going around with these as fighting pets.  They do have to stretch things to work in an MMO. 

"Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age."

What is wrong with one god who was known to love wrestling using wrestling to bind another to a chain and thus imprisoning him? Well apart from having to do the complex animations where an avatar took down an NPC that is? That's why they have a Brawler and not a Wrestler. Also you are right there have been bigger lore breakers than this but that does not excuse it. Like I said carry on playing and ignore the crap they throw at us, all MMOs today are like that, Lotro is actually one of the best ones for lore.

What would tulkas do when facing two strong opponents?  Wrestle one and hope the other stands on the side waiting?  It's unlikely that he wasn't capable of using his fists is all.

As an archetype, brawlers pretty much fit into any RPG.  You just have to ignore some of the glaring weaknesses of bringing brass knuckles to fight a wizard or a dude in armor.

Wrestle one, pick him up and throw him at the other guy. Wrestle one, pick him up and use him in a sweep to knock down opponents. Imagine seeing a Wrestler class pick up a mob and use him to knock a couple of others down!

I don't see a problem with a "man from Bree" tavern fighter. But once the Elves get in on the act in their fancy full plate I am going to be a bit dubious.