Is specialization good or bad in MMORPG?

Vermillion_Raventhal

What I mean by specialization is that there is no clear best.  Gear, abilities and skills all have specific best case use and specializations allow you to choose what you want to be best in. 

For example maybe you're a crafter and you choose to specialize in fire enchantments.  These may not be the best for all situations but when you need fire damage or fire resistance they are the best.  Maybe your other specialization is heavy armor.  You make legendary fire resistant fire armor but only epic flaming sword and master non-flaming weapons and armor as your initial specialization was blacksmithing.  This could work for combat as well.  For example blunt weapons suck vs. X but good vs. Z.  

Do you think this level of detail would add the genre or just be something annoying long term?  

Kyleran

I want to say everything you mentioned has actually existed in MMORPGS in one form or another.

From the silver swords in UO which had a bonus against undead, to several games including DAOC where one weapon type was superior against specific armor or resistances while being inferior to others.

I'll grant the idea of specialization has largely disappeared from more modern games but "back in the day" it was an integral mechanic which I definitely enjoyed.

Quizzical

That depends.  How much bag space do I get to hold all that specialized gear?

Iselin

Kyleran said:

I want to say everything you mentioned has actually existed in MMORPGS in one form or another.

From the silver swords in UO which had a bonus against undead, to several games including DAOC where one weapon type was superior against specific armor or resistances while being inferior to others.

I'll grant the idea of specialization has largely disappeared from more modern games but "back in the day" it was an integral mechanic which I definitely enjoyed.

My all time favorite was in Asheron's Call where, after much complaining by sword users who could not hurt golems, Turbine finally gave in and added the Blunt Sword that was effective against them.

Who knew a lack of sharpness could be a good thing for swords?

Rungar

You can specialize your character but you cant specialize the crafting. It wont work because everyone will require the specialized gear from all the crafts and the non specialized gear will be junk. 

much better to put slots in armor and let players customize it instead. 

i have no problem with strengths and weaknesses to certain weapon and armor types. Thats pretty straight forward.  

Kyleran

Quizzical said:

That depends.  How much bag space do I get to hold all that specialized gear?

That depends on what your character's Strength attribute is at, right?

Theocritus

Can't we just be max level with max stats and bypass all this other stuff?

Cryomatrix

I love specialization and it is inherent in Role Playing Game. I hate games where everyone is a generalist.

You need people that have roles to play and everyonr being able to solo is not a role.

I also personally believe that an MMO should have roles where the classes within a role are somewhat balanced but the roles are not even close to balanced.

More specialization the better IMO.

Morgenes83

The issue nowadays is that there are always stats which are superior.

Imho stuff like crit or attack damage should always be lower than specialized stats which are only good in certain situations.

On the other side people hat this because they feel forced to carry different sets then.

Works in PvP though

Cryomatrix

What games need for real is very specialized roles. 

For example, if I were to design an MMO. I'd have a few classes that can't be played solo such as:

- A wizard: Needs reagents for spells, each spell takes 15-60 seconds to cast. Can only wear cloth and have both hands free.  DPS is 10x that of the sorcerer class. Can't solo. 

- Sorcerer: Instant spells with cooldown more of a sustained DPS.  

- Bard: Has some attack but mainly there to buff with auras, can't solo at all. 

- Soulstealer - can take over the soul of one enemy and then you fight as that enemy. Slow leveling. 

I'd so stuff like that to reward good team work with having very specialized classes. Like no one would want to play a wizard, but if you level it high enough, you'll be sought after. 

A game needs community and one way to build community is to build interdependence. But of course, that leaves less people to play. I'm a mainly solo player, so i wouldn't even be the audience for my own game. kek. 

Amaranthar

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

What I mean by specialization is that there is no clear best.  Gear, abilities and skills all have specific best case use and specializations allow you to choose what you want to be best in. 

For example maybe you're a crafter and you choose to specialize in fire enchantments.  These may not be the best for all situations but when you need fire damage or fire resistance they are the best.  Maybe your other specialization is heavy armor.  You make legendary fire resistant fire armor but only epic flaming sword and master non-flaming weapons and armor as your initial specialization was blacksmithing.  This could work for combat as well.  For example blunt weapons suck vs. X but good vs. Z.  

Do you think this level of detail would add the genre or just be something annoying long term?  

I like a little "specialization", noticeable, but not overpowering. 
I'd rather leave such things as better fire defense on armor to magical enhancements that would require a Mage (of some sort?) to add. 
For the crafter, I'd rather see specializing in another form, where the blacksmith can specialize (again, not overpowering) in either of 3 aspects. 
- Better armor rating
- Better durability
- Lighter weight
Or more commonly as a combination of the 3 and slightly lesser effect of each. 
Same for weapons.
And the same sort of thing for some other crafting items. 

I think it's an additional part of Character development to gather specialized gear for special MOBs. 
But I also don't want that in a game where you can carry unreasonable amounts of weight and switch gear like armor out in the middle of fighting. A simple 1 second animation where you can't do anything else to take off each piece of armor, and another second to put a new piece on, with the loss of that armor protection during that time. 

lonesol

I think so, but I also enjoy highly complex crafting systems like star wars galaxies. The games that have highly complex specs usually aren't popular at all though, minus one path of exile. Diablo 3 is way more stream lined with no specs per say and it's more popular than Diablo 2. Never winter is way more popular than dungeons and dragons online. Swtor is way more popular than swg is or ever was. 

So for modern games I'm pretty sure no one's gonna take the time to make a extensive spec system. It's like weather systems, and day night  I really enjoy them, most people could care less swtor is a good example of that. 

Ryzom being the least popular mmo ever has specs so serious you get to make your own abilities, with custom per player gear. That game has maybe 100 people. Even if you got rid of it's bad tutorial, added more modern features, stream lined some of it. It would still be a not popular game. 

From what I see the majority of players do not like complex systems. They like streamlined easy systems where you can't really fail. Even games like Poe the majority just follow a guide some one else made, which from a developer point of view would just be easier to not waste time on a million builds when people pick 10. Ulitma online same thing, daoc same thing, Diablo 2, old swg, and dungeons and dragons online. I like to just follow what ever I feel like, and end up with garbage characters it's fine to me, I'm rare in that. So just imagine all the wasted time some one put into coding all that stuff when 95 percent just cookie cut. 

It gives me a sense of my character is my own. When I played wow for a month, just felt like I was just another brick in the wall. So I'm under no delusion that some big MMORPG company is gonna make a game other than stream lined no specs and no ability to fail. 

lonesol

Cryomatrix said:

What games need for real is very specialized roles. 

For example, if I were to design an MMO. I'd have a few classes that can't be played solo such as:

- A wizard: Needs reagents for spells, each spell takes 15-60 seconds to cast. Can only wear cloth and have both hands free.  DPS is 10x that of the sorcerer class. Can't solo. 

- Sorcerer: Instant spells with cooldown more of a sustained DPS.  

- Bard: Has some attack but mainly there to buff with auras, can't solo at all. 

- Soulstealer - can take over the soul of one enemy and then you fight as that enemy. Slow leveling. 

I'd so stuff like that to reward good team work with having very specialized classes. Like no one would want to play a wizard, but if you level it high enough, you'll be sought after. 

A game needs community and one way to build community is to build interdependence. But of course, that leaves less people to play. I'm a mainly solo player, so i wouldn't even be the audience for my own game. kek. 

Have you considered that all those characters you discribe are already in games? The soulstealer is like the ench from EverQuest,or the necromancer in daoc is closer, the bard dnd online, basically the wizard and sorc are dnd online. Minus you can spec around some of those problems. Dnd use to force you also to have to group with those characters. No one likes it, and they made mercs. None of those games that force grouping ever make it.  It always leads to people cheating with bots, 6 characters on at once, or scripts. 

The only games I've seen that forced grouping kinda works are mobas, but even so they just end up being toxic than every one wants to ban every one for talking. Mobas have those ridged roles, and you always find some one who won't play the right role. Mmorpgs are even worse with that like EverQuest where it takes forever to get to max level so your stuck at that role forever, which no one ever does  and runs bots and multi characters and the majority play by them selves anyways.

I don't think there is a target audience for what your talking about. There's people who say they want that kind of thing, but really don't. Just like there's a bunch that say they want unlimited character builds than just copy other people. Just like complex crafting, which are so unpopular the 3 games that have it ryzom, ulitma online, and swg are super underpopulated compared to say wow, swtor, or eso. I'm sure some think eso has a complex crafting system, I thought it was super easy and a waste of time. Swg emu has forced grouping, and none of the emulators make u have one character or one online. Swg has way less forced grouping and is by far more popular. So if we are talking making money there is no target audience for what you suggest. 

cameltosis

I'm a fan of more specialisations in general, especially when they lead to more roleplaying opportunities.

As always, implementation is key. Itemisation, respeccing, balance and bag space seem like they would be the key issues in a game with a lot of specialisations, but they can all be solved.

Wizardry

To me the term is just a marketing term,i assume it makes people feel like they are getting something special...a specialized idea.
I prefer to use the term ROLE,each player within a group has a role to play.

I have a very good idea of how i like to see the mmorpg's designed within the combat structure and hoped to one day see it.Sadly developers are just pure lazy and wanting to cut lots of corners to make it cheaper and easier for them to design the game.

FFXi allowed you to change your character role and to mix n match to further tweak it in a way you felt was needed.

The way the bad game designs do it,you hit some level then they ask you to choose a specialization,i absolutely laugh at that design,it is pathetic and LAZY.

FFXi came the closest to "getting there" but was still a ways off but since then devs are just dumbing the genre down to garbage gameplay +some end game nonsense.
It bothers me that is appears gamers are more worried about their loot,their ranking or their gear score than how good a game is designed.
IDK WHY the mindset,do gamers just accept what they are given?Well they SHOULD be smart enough to realize expansions wil be incoming so if you don't speak up you will keep getting the same trash designs >>aka Wow and it's clones.

Rungar

lonesol said:

Cryomatrix said:

What games need for real is very specialized roles. 

For example, if I were to design an MMO. I'd have a few classes that can't be played solo such as:

- A wizard: Needs reagents for spells, each spell takes 15-60 seconds to cast. Can only wear cloth and have both hands free.  DPS is 10x that of the sorcerer class. Can't solo. 

- Sorcerer: Instant spells with cooldown more of a sustained DPS.  

- Bard: Has some attack but mainly there to buff with auras, can't solo at all. 

- Soulstealer - can take over the soul of one enemy and then you fight as that enemy. Slow leveling. 

I'd so stuff like that to reward good team work with having very specialized classes. Like no one would want to play a wizard, but if you level it high enough, you'll be sought after. 

A game needs community and one way to build community is to build interdependence. But of course, that leaves less people to play. I'm a mainly solo player, so i wouldn't even be the audience for my own game. kek. 

Have you considered that all those characters you discribe are already in games? The soulstealer is like the ench from EverQuest,or the necromancer in daoc is closer, the bard dnd online, basically the wizard and sorc are dnd online. Minus you can spec around some of those problems. Dnd use to force you also to have to group with those characters. No one likes it, and they made mercs. None of those games that force grouping ever make it.  It always leads to people cheating with bots, 6 characters on at once, or scripts. 

The only games I've seen that forced grouping kinda works are mobas, but even so they just end up being toxic than every one wants to ban every one for talking. Mobas have those ridged roles, and you always find some one who won't play the right role. Mmorpgs are even worse with that like EverQuest where it takes forever to get to max level so your stuck at that role forever, which no one ever does  and runs bots and multi characters and the majority play by them selves anyways.

I don't think there is a target audience for what your talking about. There's people who say they want that kind of thing, but really don't. Just like there's a bunch that say they want unlimited character builds than just copy other people. Just like complex crafting, which are so unpopular the 3 games that have it ryzom, ulitma online, and swg are super underpopulated compared to say wow, swtor, or eso. I'm sure some think eso has a complex crafting system, I thought it was super easy and a waste of time. Swg emu has forced grouping, and none of the emulators make u have one character or one online. Swg has way less forced grouping and is by far more popular. So if we are talking making money there is no target audience for what you suggest. 

Any system in any mmo has to be very well thought out because the continuum of players is vast. Basically each system has to be as simple as crayons but very deep. 

if the system is too complex it wont be used but if players are eased into a system you have much better chances of adoption. 

the player portrait/equipment screen is the most used and easily identifiable system in these games. Everyone knows how to put on their armor. There no points to alot or complex procedures. They know when they get something better ( even with the crayon method above, which is sadly true) they can switch them out. 

i think that everything in the game can work exactly like that. It can work for your character, your equipment and your skills and spells. It also works for your control scheme. You have to put something in the quickslot. 

Shaigh

Elemental resistance/vulnerability has always been a flawed way of handling things, it add complexity without adding any depth because it can easily be nullified by making quick changes.

Specialization is always a tricky subject because it often goes from having lots of options to essentially being forced down to one way because its simply superior. It leads to min/max which most often skews power in ways developers couldn't anticipate.

The reason specialization works so fine in diablo type games is because you want to get players to replay the game with other outputs so without lots of build options replayability goes away. Its a power-gamers dream to experiment with builds.

In mmorpg you mostly play one character and if that character gets restricted out of certain parts of the game its problematic.

AlBQuirky

Theocritus said:

Can't we just be max level with max stats and bypass all this other stuff?

You just came from reading "that other" thread, didn't you? LOL

AlBQuirky

Cryomatrix said:

I love specialization and it is inherent in Role Playing Game. I hate games where everyone is a generalist.

You need people that have roles to play and everyonr being able to solo is not a role.

I also personally believe that an MMO should have roles where the classes within a role are somewhat balanced but the roles are not even close to balanced.

More specialization the better IMO.

I agree, but I think the OP was talking more about "gear specialization" over "character specialization", though I may have missed the mark

AlBQuirky

Wizardry said:

To me the term is just a marketing term,i assume it makes people feel like they are getting something special...a specialized idea.
I prefer to use the term ROLE,each player within a group has a role to play.

I have a very good idea of how i like to see the mmorpg's designed within the combat structure and hoped to one day see it.Sadly developers are just pure lazy and wanting to cut lots of corners to make it cheaper and easier for them to design the game.

FFXi allowed you to change your character role and to mix n match to further tweak it in a way you felt was needed.

The way the bad game designs do it,you hit some level then they ask you to choose a specialization,i absolutely laugh at that design,it is pathetic and LAZY.

FFXi came the closest to "getting there" but was still a ways off but since then devs are just dumbing the genre down to garbage gameplay +some end game nonsense.
It bothers me that is appears gamers are more worried about their loot,their ranking or their gear score than how good a game is designed.
IDK WHY the mindset,do gamers just accept what they are given?Well they SHOULD be smart enough to realize expansions wil be incoming so if you don't speak up you will keep getting the same trash designs >>aka Wow and it's clones.

Posts (ideas) walk and money talks.

How long have "older MMORPG players been lamenting the "old ways?" I foresee no change in sight as long as games keep making profits using the same old formula.

Rungar

AlBQuirky said:

Wizardry said:

To me the term is just a marketing term,i assume it makes people feel like they are getting something special...a specialized idea.
I prefer to use the term ROLE,each player within a group has a role to play.

I have a very good idea of how i like to see the mmorpg's designed within the combat structure and hoped to one day see it.Sadly developers are just pure lazy and wanting to cut lots of corners to make it cheaper and easier for them to design the game.

FFXi allowed you to change your character role and to mix n match to further tweak it in a way you felt was needed.

The way the bad game designs do it,you hit some level then they ask you to choose a specialization,i absolutely laugh at that design,it is pathetic and LAZY.

FFXi came the closest to "getting there" but was still a ways off but since then devs are just dumbing the genre down to garbage gameplay +some end game nonsense.
It bothers me that is appears gamers are more worried about their loot,their ranking or their gear score than how good a game is designed.
IDK WHY the mindset,do gamers just accept what they are given?Well they SHOULD be smart enough to realize expansions wil be incoming so if you don't speak up you will keep getting the same trash designs >>aka Wow and it's clones.

Posts (ideas) walk and money talks.

How long have "older MMORPG players been lamenting the "old ways?" I foresee no change in sight as long as games keep making profits using the same old formula.

Maybe, but as we see with New world, even unlimited money might not work. In the end you need the right ideas for your customer base and the right resources ( people and tools) to pull it off. New world has neither from what I can see. 

Vermillion_Raventhal

AlBQuirky said:

Theocritus said:

Can't we just be max level with max stats and bypass all this other stuff?

You just came from reading "that other" thread, didn't you? LOL

They kind of lame honestly. Typical discredit what I don't like by using the most extreme.  But it's off topic here.  

Sid_Vicious

That all depends on whether or not you have only one character per account or several...

Ungood

AlBQuirky said:

Wizardry said:

To me the term is just a marketing term,i assume it makes people feel like they are getting something special...a specialized idea.
I prefer to use the term ROLE,each player within a group has a role to play.

I have a very good idea of how i like to see the mmorpg's designed within the combat structure and hoped to one day see it.Sadly developers are just pure lazy and wanting to cut lots of corners to make it cheaper and easier for them to design the game.

FFXi allowed you to change your character role and to mix n match to further tweak it in a way you felt was needed.

The way the bad game designs do it,you hit some level then they ask you to choose a specialization,i absolutely laugh at that design,it is pathetic and LAZY.

FFXi came the closest to "getting there" but was still a ways off but since then devs are just dumbing the genre down to garbage gameplay +some end game nonsense.
It bothers me that is appears gamers are more worried about their loot,their ranking or their gear score than how good a game is designed.
IDK WHY the mindset,do gamers just accept what they are given?Well they SHOULD be smart enough to realize expansions wil be incoming so if you don't speak up you will keep getting the same trash designs >>aka Wow and it's clones.

Posts (ideas) walk and money talks.

How long have "older MMORPG players been lamenting the "old ways?" I foresee no change in sight as long as games keep making profits using the same old formula.

Personally I do not lament the "Old Ways" as I am currently enjoying playing an Old MMOrpg.

I am more entertained that the systems in the game I am playing are desired by the more modern MMO player, and I am legit wondering why these systems went away in the first place.

Kyleran

Ungood said:

AlBQuirky said:

Wizardry said:

To me the term is just a marketing term,i assume it makes people feel like they are getting something special...a specialized idea.
I prefer to use the term ROLE,each player within a group has a role to play.

I have a very good idea of how i like to see the mmorpg's designed within the combat structure and hoped to one day see it.Sadly developers are just pure lazy and wanting to cut lots of corners to make it cheaper and easier for them to design the game.

FFXi allowed you to change your character role and to mix n match to further tweak it in a way you felt was needed.

The way the bad game designs do it,you hit some level then they ask you to choose a specialization,i absolutely laugh at that design,it is pathetic and LAZY.

FFXi came the closest to "getting there" but was still a ways off but since then devs are just dumbing the genre down to garbage gameplay +some end game nonsense.
It bothers me that is appears gamers are more worried about their loot,their ranking or their gear score than how good a game is designed.
IDK WHY the mindset,do gamers just accept what they are given?Well they SHOULD be smart enough to realize expansions wil be incoming so if you don't speak up you will keep getting the same trash designs >>aka Wow and it's clones.

Posts (ideas) walk and money talks.

How long have "older MMORPG players been lamenting the "old ways?" I foresee no change in sight as long as games keep making profits using the same old formula.

Personally I do not lament the "Old Ways" as I am currently enjoying playing an Old MMOrpg.

I am more entertained that the systems in the game I am playing are desired by the more modern MMO player, and I am legit wondering why these systems went away in the first place.

Probably devs figured out they could be omitted to save on costs with no impact to the bottom line.

Rungar

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

AlBQuirky said:

Wizardry said:

To me the term is just a marketing term,i assume it makes people feel like they are getting something special...a specialized idea.
I prefer to use the term ROLE,each player within a group has a role to play.

I have a very good idea of how i like to see the mmorpg's designed within the combat structure and hoped to one day see it.Sadly developers are just pure lazy and wanting to cut lots of corners to make it cheaper and easier for them to design the game.

FFXi allowed you to change your character role and to mix n match to further tweak it in a way you felt was needed.

The way the bad game designs do it,you hit some level then they ask you to choose a specialization,i absolutely laugh at that design,it is pathetic and LAZY.

FFXi came the closest to "getting there" but was still a ways off but since then devs are just dumbing the genre down to garbage gameplay +some end game nonsense.
It bothers me that is appears gamers are more worried about their loot,their ranking or their gear score than how good a game is designed.
IDK WHY the mindset,do gamers just accept what they are given?Well they SHOULD be smart enough to realize expansions wil be incoming so if you don't speak up you will keep getting the same trash designs >>aka Wow and it's clones.

Posts (ideas) walk and money talks.

How long have "older MMORPG players been lamenting the "old ways?" I foresee no change in sight as long as games keep making profits using the same old formula.

Personally I do not lament the "Old Ways" as I am currently enjoying playing an Old MMOrpg.

I am more entertained that the systems in the game I am playing are desired by the more modern MMO player, and I am legit wondering why these systems went away in the first place.

Probably devs figured out they could be omitted to save on costs with no impact to the bottom line.

Players whined until they went away. Other systems were killed by certain features such as raiding. What is wow but a streamlined easier version of eq1. It had all the things I didnt like about eq1 and none of the things I liked...