About Dark Fantasy

Gorwe

I wanted to avoid my usual gripe, that is Grimdark, and to that effect, I expanded this topic to Dark Fantasy in general. I really need to discuss this. I once bemoaned my problems with Warhammer Fantasy, but...

...in all honesty? My problems lie with Dark Fantasy itself. I don't know what changed, but in the last few years I became increasingly repelled by the very idea of Dark Fantasy(=everything being mean and out to get you -> that is NOT realistic!). I guess the why behind I like it is...I really like being a Champion and battling evil. The idea of being able to just gut Diablo(or what have you) is incredibly intoxicating to me. And I am a kind of person who never gives up, who finds a way to achieve most of his wishes.

It's not even gore or the atmosphere that get to me(both suck, but I can live with them)...it's how these crapsack shitholes for edgy 13y olds describe everything as pointless. Everything is in a "cycle" of a sorts, you can't really win, all your life is pointless..../wrist. Standard 13y old crap. But even when I was that old, I wanted to be more like Luke Skywalker(...ok, Han Solo, but meh) than like some edgelord of Deadpool caliber. In fact, I can't stand Deadpool. But I digress.

I feel like something's changing. Nowadays I want Ixalans and Zendikars, even to tour something as breathtaking, but dangerous, like Ikoria(sorry for heavy MTG slang). I want badass, light hearted adventures that are vivid and full of color and spirit...Star Wars, Guardians, Ixalan, Oblivion(Morrowind's still awesome, but the more I age, the more I like the spirit of Oblivion - gameplay still quite sucks) and such.

...what happened to me? Did I really change that much? (I want to settle this before D2: Resurrected, so I can enjoy it to the max)

cameltosis

A few random thoughts, in no particular order.....

For me, Grimdark / Dark Fantasy is all about aesthetics, rather than the gameplay or anything meaningful. I've seen dark fantasy games where you are still clearly the hero and out to do good things and meet good people, its just the setting is very "dark".

For that reason, I've never viewed Warhammer as dark fantasy, I view it as quintessential high fantasy. Yes, there are dark settings, plenty of evil, and each of the races have negative sides. But, I see that more as a realistic view of living in a warlike world rather than a childish / simplistic theme. The fact that the Warhamer world also includes loads of bright, colourful biomes and settings also brings it more towards high fantasy than dark fantasy.

As for your changing attitude towards this theme as you get older......

It could be to do with your general level of happiness / mental health in real life. I suffer from depression, plus adult life is stressful anyway, so I look to games as a form of escapism. Spending hours in a dark, depressing game world does me no favours, it doesn't inspire me or excite me, it doesn't get my imagination running. I don't really care how good the mechanics are, if the world is dark and depressing, im out.

It could be to do with increased social awareness, or a search for meaning, and these types of games aren't giving you experiences that match what you are searching for. When I was younger, I was extremely selfish. I really didn't care all that much about other peoples feelings, except when it related to getting what I wanted. The older the get, the more I care about other people and the more I want my life to mean something. I am a very different person today than I was when I was 16.

If you're going through something similar, it may be reflected in your game choice. Slaughtering everything in sight whilst in the pursuit of personal power (i.e. most RPGs) is a pretty childish theme that may not align with who you want to be now that you're older.

It could be a boredom issue. You've grown up with dark fantasy, you've played lots of games. Repetition leads to boredom, regardless of how much you enjoyed it originally. You may simply be done with it for a while, and you don't need to search for any deeper answer.

AlBQuirky

I'm with you on the setting. I see "dark fantasy" as a "palette cleanser" more than a "first choice."

I like Camel's assessment as I use gaming the same way (and movies, TV shows, and reading): escapism.

There are many players that enjoy the dark setting. Since I first watched Star Wars in the theaters (theatres, for you "proper English types), there have been people in love with "The Sith." Even in D&D, many players want to be "Drow/Dark Elves" in order to be "bad." Others want to be "Drow/Dark Elves" to be special, the "one" that bucks their nature and "does good"

All in all, I appreciate "Dark Fantasy" as a setting, but enjoy more heroic journeys much more

cheyane

Afaik "Dark Fantasy" was first used to describe Michael Moorcock's writings. And used because those were darker than Tolkien's books and people who emulate Tolkien (which were called "epic fantasy"). Moorcock wrote morally ambiguous heroes with many flaws, violence, sex, despair.

"Grimdark" however was first used to describe Warhammer 40k. Which has a setting that is over the top grim and dark. Spaceships powered by millions of slaves who never see the outside of an engine room. people being massacred by the billions on a whim. Etc. However, people liked this term (it's catchy) and started to use it to describe newer dark fantasy novels such as ASOIAF, Black Company, The First Law and Prince of Thorns.

From what I see "grimdark" is mainly used to describe books with lots of violence, sex, swearing, immorality, despair, bad guys win, death, etc. While "dark fantasy" is a wider term that can also include stuff with gothic or horror influences.

Personal opinion: I prefer the term" dark fantasy". The First Law is my favorite series and I describe it as "dark fantasy" even though "grimdark" fits it as well. I think the term is useful for distinguishing epic, heroic, save-the-world stuff like Tolkien or Sanderson and darker stuff like Moorcock or Abercrombie.

I am plagiarizing source is this thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/af5nks/whats_the_difference_between_dark_fantasy_and/

Scot

With respect might I ask how old you are? I find chaos spikiness and all things death and destruction appeal best to a younger generation. Maybe you are just older now?

That said being one of those fighting against the dark as you can do in WH40K still very much appeals.

Wizardry

I prefer Fantasy based off of Mythology and not surprisingly FFXI was all based on Mythology.

HOW combat is done is much more important to me than WHAT i am fighting.You mentioned Diablo,combat like that turns me right off and doesn't matter what i am fighting.

I also need to see well designed creatures,AI that is real good and animations that are equally as good.

Gorwe

Scot said:

With respect might I ask how old you are? I find chaos spikiness and all things death and destruction appeal best to a younger generation. Maybe you are just older now?

That said being one of those fighting against the dark as you can do in WH40K still very much appeals.

I mean, not a lot has changed(I was always into these exactly for the reason specified: fighting evil). Except one specific thing - yes, this definitely changed. My relation to Warhammer Dark Elves / Dark Eldar. Ironically, I became ever more enamored with them the older I grew. I don't know, it's something...I don't know lol. Could be my changing stance towards carnal things. I mean, I'm still...eh...about them, but I've become very curious about this topic. Just passed 30, thanks for asking. Still tired of skulls, spikes and gore, just like I always was(it's just not aesthetic, looks horrible, most of time). And I'm definitely against "can't influence the situation" bit of Dark Fantasy. Yes, you can. Every atom of my being is a proof of this, I refuse anything otherwise.

Sovrath

It's probably important to note that the term "Dark Fantasy" doesn't have to be about spikes and skulls. I've seen artwork where the outfits had skulls on them at the knees and elbows and everywhere. I always thought that was over the top and silly.

But they don't have to have that.

I would say that I absolutely love the Dark Souls and Bloodborne aesthetic.

Just wish I was better at the games. Also, I'll just leave this here.

Scot

Sovrath said:

It's probably important to note that the term "Dark Fantasy" doesn't have to be about spikes and skulls. I've seen artwork where the outfits had skulls on them at the knees and elbows and everywhere. I always thought that was over the top and silly.

But they don't have to have that.

I would say that I absolutely love the Dark Souls and Bloodborne aesthetic.

Just wish I was better at the games. Also, I'll just leave this here.

I was really just thinking about WH40k there, but it did influence the art of dark fantasy going forward. I see even confectioners realise that a deep red and black has "dark fantasy" written all over it.

Sovrath

Scot said:

I was really just thinking about WH40k there, but it did influence the art of dark fantasy going forward. I see even confectioners realise that a deep red and black has "dark fantasy" written all over it.

A lot of the over-the-top "dark fantasy" just reminds me of 80's metal album covers. I didn't appreciate them enough when I was younger but now I'm rethinking that.

Gorwe

Sovrath said:

It's probably important to note that the term "Dark Fantasy" doesn't have to be about spikes and skulls. I've seen artwork where the outfits had skulls on them at the knees and elbows and everywhere. I always thought that was over the top and silly.

But they don't have to have that.

I would say that I absolutely love the Dark Souls and Bloodborne aesthetic.

Just wish I was better at the games. Also, I'll just leave this here.

Yes, the Dark Souls are perfect(Nioh even better - a perfect way to learn history ; just don't go around talking that William Adams and Hanzo went around Yokai slaying). The presence of "cycles" annoys me, but this is to explain the presence of NG+ modes. Let me tell you this, it's much better than Warhammer. Ok, Warhammer's got world and societies, so...if only they did something with it instead of same old same old.

The interesting part is my increased interest in Dark Elves. Ok, they are changing 40k(and will probably change Fantasy once the revival gets going), so it's from the both sides. I can't not mention Lelith...oh god!

AlBQuirky

cheyane said:

Afaik "Dark Fantasy" was first used to describe Michael Moorcock's writings. And used because those were darker than Tolkien's books and people who emulate Tolkien (which were called "epic fantasy"). Moorcock wrote morally ambiguous heroes with many flaws, violence, sex, despair.

"Grimdark" however was first used to describe Warhammer 40k. Which has a setting that is over the top grim and dark. Spaceships powered by millions of slaves who never see the outside of an engine room. people being massacred by the billions on a whim. Etc. However, people liked this term (it's catchy) and started to use it to describe newer dark fantasy novels such as ASOIAF, Black Company, The First Law and Prince of Thorns.

From what I see "grimdark" is mainly used to describe books with lots of violence, sex, swearing, immorality, despair, bad guys win, death, etc. While "dark fantasy" is a wider term that can also include stuff with gothic or horror influences.

Personal opinion: I prefer the term" dark fantasy". The First Law is my favorite series and I describe it as "dark fantasy" even though "grimdark" fits it as well. I think the term is useful for distinguishing epic, heroic, save-the-world stuff like Tolkien or Sanderson and darker stuff like Moorcock or Abercrombie.

I am plagiarizing source is this thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/af5nks/whats_the_difference_between_dark_fantasy_and/

I've totally forgotten about Michal Moorcock's books! Elric of Melnibone and Corum are 2 series I read in my teens! I w2onder how they would today for me

AlBQuirky

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I was really just thinking about WH40k there, but it did influence the art of dark fantasy going forward. I see even confectioners realise that a deep red and black has "dark fantasy" written all over it.

A lot of the over-the-top "dark fantasy" just reminds me of 80's metal album covers. I didn't appreciate them enough when I was younger but now I'm rethinking that.

Over-the-top... Like this:

Scot

I have a feeling that Gorwe is going to keep coming back to this theme, maybe take a rest from WH? There are a ton of dark fantasy treatments out there, you may find given six months that WH sparks your interest again.

I had zero interest in WH it was a young teens strategy game. When the RPG came out I was just doing other games, started a WH fantasy campaign and it spiked my interest. Did a couple of early Games Workshop computer games but that's all. WH 40K came out, but only a strategy game, no interest. Years and years later played a couple of WH40K video games, started being interested in WH40K. Over the period of several years nearly all Dan Abnett books read, interest is peaking.  WH40K announce Dark Heresy a table top, interest flares up, various other RPG's come out, interest has peaked. Still playing certain video game RPG's but we never got a WH RPG of the ground, interest waning. So to me interest should go in waves, that's perfectly natural.

Finally I have heard Harry Potter fans talk about how the films are still as good as when they were younger. That's because they were made for children and adults, truly tricky to pull of but they did it. WH was aimed at kids to teens and only the table top RPG's and the Abnett books speak to adults. Not sure you can say any of the video games speak to our age as such? You are just going to have to accept that something you really liked as younger man does not quite inspire you as much as it once did.

Scot

Nyctelios said:

Idk what you guys are smoking. Ravenloft is really cool. Very deep and interesting plane.

Nyctelios, when you first joined us I took one look at your avatar and thought 'dark fantasy fan'. So no surprises there.

cameltosis

AlBQuirky said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I was really just thinking about WH40k there, but it did influence the art of dark fantasy going forward. I see even confectioners realise that a deep red and black has "dark fantasy" written all over it.

A lot of the over-the-top "dark fantasy" just reminds me of 80's metal album covers. I didn't appreciate them enough when I was younger but now I'm rethinking that.

Over-the-top... Like this:

I imagined more like this:

Gorwe

Scot said:

I have a feeling that Gorwe is going to keep coming back to this theme, maybe take a rest from WH? There are a ton of dark fantasy treatments out there, you may find given six months that WH sparks your interest again.

I had zero interest in WH it was a young teens strategy game. When the RPG came out I was just doing other games, started a WH fantasy campaign and it spiked my interest. Did a couple of early Games Workshop computer games but that's all. WH 40K came out, but only a strategy game, no interest. Years and years later played a couple of WH40K video games, started being interested in WH40K. Over the period of several years nearly all Dan Abnett books read, interest is peaking.  WH40K announce Dark Heresy a table top, interest flares up, various other RPG's come out, interest has peaked. Still playing certain video game RPG's but we never got a WH RPG of the ground, interest waning. So to me interest should go in waves, that's perfectly natural.

Finally I have heard Harry Potter fans talk about how the films are still as good as when they were younger. That's because they were made for children and adults, truly tricky to pull of but they did it. WH was aimed at kids to teens and only the table top RPG's and the Abnett books speak to adults. Not sure you can say any of the video games speak to our age as such? You are just going to have to accept that something you really liked as younger man does not quite inspire you as much as it once did.

Leave for good or leave for a time? I left 40k for some time and playing Armada was so refreshing after it. Ok, Armada has next to no Grimdark unless you specifically look for it(I guess this applies to Warhammer in general, it's more marketed as some grimdark /wrist crap, rather than it actually being that ; this goes especially for Fantasy and EXCEPTIONALLY ESPECIALLY for pre 6th Ed Fantasy). It's just fancy ships shooting at each other, just like a child's game, perfect!

Sovrath

AlBQuirky said:

cheyane said:

Afaik "Dark Fantasy" was first used to describe Michael Moorcock's writings. And used because those were darker than Tolkien's books and people who emulate Tolkien (which were called "epic fantasy"). Moorcock wrote morally ambiguous heroes with many flaws, violence, sex, despair.

"Grimdark" however was first used to describe Warhammer 40k. Which has a setting that is over the top grim and dark. Spaceships powered by millions of slaves who never see the outside of an engine room. people being massacred by the billions on a whim. Etc. However, people liked this term (it's catchy) and started to use it to describe newer dark fantasy novels such as ASOIAF, Black Company, The First Law and Prince of Thorns.

From what I see "grimdark" is mainly used to describe books with lots of violence, sex, swearing, immorality, despair, bad guys win, death, etc. While "dark fantasy" is a wider term that can also include stuff with gothic or horror influences.

Personal opinion: I prefer the term" dark fantasy". The First Law is my favorite series and I describe it as "dark fantasy" even though "grimdark" fits it as well. I think the term is useful for distinguishing epic, heroic, save-the-world stuff like Tolkien or Sanderson and darker stuff like Moorcock or Abercrombie.

I am plagiarizing source is this thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/af5nks/whats_the_difference_between_dark_fantasy_and/

I've totally forgotten about Michal Moorcock's books! Elric of Melnibone and Corum are 2 series I read in my teens! I w2onder how they would today for me

I actually just started re-reading the Elric books. I think they still hold up. I've never read the Swords Trilogy.

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

AlBQuirky said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I was really just thinking about WH40k there, but it did influence the art of dark fantasy going forward. I see even confectioners realise that a deep red and black has "dark fantasy" written all over it.

A lot of the over-the-top "dark fantasy" just reminds me of 80's metal album covers. I didn't appreciate them enough when I was younger but now I'm rethinking that.

Over-the-top... Like this:

I imagined more like this:

yeah that bottom picture is great!

cameltosis

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

AlBQuirky said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I was really just thinking about WH40k there, but it did influence the art of dark fantasy going forward. I see even confectioners realise that a deep red and black has "dark fantasy" written all over it.

A lot of the over-the-top "dark fantasy" just reminds me of 80's metal album covers. I didn't appreciate them enough when I was younger but now I'm rethinking that.

Over-the-top... Like this:

I imagined more like this:

yeah that bottom picture is great!

It's called "Heavy Metal Hero" by Rodney Matthews if ur interested, I bought it for my Dad for xmas!

I believe it was used as an album cover for some 80s hair metal group, but I got it because it looks cool and my dad likes trains :P

Scot

cameltosis said:

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

AlBQuirky said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I was really just thinking about WH40k there, but it did influence the art of dark fantasy going forward. I see even confectioners realise that a deep red and black has "dark fantasy" written all over it.

A lot of the over-the-top "dark fantasy" just reminds me of 80's metal album covers. I didn't appreciate them enough when I was younger but now I'm rethinking that.

Over-the-top... Like this:

I imagined more like this:

yeah that bottom picture is great!

It's called "Heavy Metal Hero" by Rodney Matthews if ur interested, I bought it for my Dad for xmas!

I believe it was used as an album cover for some 80s hair metal group, but I got it because it looks cool and my dad likes trains :P

Excellent pressie thinking, I had never thought of them as "hair metal groups", raised a smile.

Gorwe

Regardless, now is not the time to go on Warhammer vacation! Hired Gun, Total Warhammer 3(can't wait even if I am not really a fan of Kislevite gear in trailer), more Total Warhammer 2 goodness(could do a Captain Jaego playthrough and some others)...

That reminds me, who's the guy at the end of TWH3 release trailer?