Some games deserve to die. I'm not quite sure if P:G is one of those or not, but it isn't winning points for the graphics or innovation. Like @tzervo said earlier, the game has some unique quirks, but beyond that it's not chocked full of innovative new features that every future game will copy and emulate.
If they were to rip out all the unity store assets in favor of better graphics, then this *might* be worth a VIP subscription *only* if you were interested in a very niche game.
P:G feels to me, at this point in time, like a game that is being kept afloat against it's will. Life support for an MMORPG that doesn't involve Daybreak? Now that's a thing!
That's just a really weird way of looking at it.
It's like saying that to merit its existence it has to have elements that others want to take and copy and expand.
It can't just be its own thing.
This is a fair question.
The simple answer is: No.
If something is new and good, it will be copied, because that is how things improve. Something new/better comes along, and others copy and adopt it, because it is better than what is currently. This is what innovation really is in a nut shell.
Something that is New that is Not Better, does not get copied, and often looked at as trying to reinvent the wheel.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Some games deserve to die. I'm not quite sure if P:G is one of those or not, but it isn't winning points for the graphics or innovation. Like @tzervo said earlier, the game has some unique quirks, but beyond that it's not chocked full of innovative new features that every future game will copy and emulate.
If they were to rip out all the unity store assets in favor of better graphics, then this *might* be worth a VIP subscription *only* if you were interested in a very niche game.
P:G feels to me, at this point in time, like a game that is being kept afloat against it's will. Life support for an MMORPG that doesn't involve Daybreak? Now that's a thing!
That's just a really weird way of looking at it.
It's like saying that to merit its existence it has to have elements that others want to take and copy and expand.
It can't just be its own thing.
This is a fair question.
The simple answer is: No.
If something is new and good, it will be copied, because that is how things improve. Something new/better comes along, and others copy and adopt it, because it is better than what is currently. This is what innovation really is in a nut shell.
Something that is New that is Not Better, does not get copied, and often looked at as trying to reinvent the wheel.
Except games are also art and sometimes art is "a bit out there" and has a very small audience. However, that audience does appreciate it and love it even though "the masses" don't.
So the simple answer is: YES.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Some games deserve to die. I'm not quite sure if P:G is one of those or not, but it isn't winning points for the graphics or innovation. Like @tzervo said earlier, the game has some unique quirks, but beyond that it's not chocked full of innovative new features that every future game will copy and emulate.
If they were to rip out all the unity store assets in favor of better graphics, then this *might* be worth a VIP subscription *only* if you were interested in a very niche game.
P:G feels to me, at this point in time, like a game that is being kept afloat against it's will. Life support for an MMORPG that doesn't involve Daybreak? Now that's a thing!
That's just a really weird way of looking at it.
It's like saying that to merit its existence it has to have elements that others want to take and copy and expand.
It can't just be its own thing.
This is a fair question.
The simple answer is: No.
If something is new and good, it will be copied, because that is how things improve. Something new/better comes along, and others copy and adopt it, because it is better than what is currently. This is what innovation really is in a nut shell.
Something that is New that is Not Better, does not get copied, and often looked at as trying to reinvent the wheel.
Except games are also art and sometimes art is "a bit out there" and has a very small audience. However, that audience does appreciate it and love it even though "the masses" don't.
So the simple answer is: YES.
Or sometimes the "masses" are right and it is not art.
Some games deserve to die. I'm not quite sure if P:G is one of those or not, but it isn't winning points for the graphics or innovation. Like @tzervo said earlier, the game has some unique quirks, but beyond that it's not chocked full of innovative new features that every future game will copy and emulate.
If they were to rip out all the unity store assets in favor of better graphics, then this *might* be worth a VIP subscription *only* if you were interested in a very niche game.
P:G feels to me, at this point in time, like a game that is being kept afloat against it's will. Life support for an MMORPG that doesn't involve Daybreak? Now that's a thing!
That's just a really weird way of looking at it.
It's like saying that to merit its existence it has to have elements that others want to take and copy and expand.
It can't just be its own thing.
This is a fair question.
The simple answer is: No.
If something is new and good, it will be copied, because that is how things improve. Something new/better comes along, and others copy and adopt it, because it is better than what is currently. This is what innovation really is in a nut shell.
Something that is New that is Not Better, does not get copied, and often looked at as trying to reinvent the wheel.
Except games are also art and sometimes art is "a bit out there" and has a very small audience. However, that audience does appreciate it and love it even though "the masses" don't.
So the simple answer is: YES.
Or sometimes the "masses" are right and it is not art.
It's subjective. Again, as long as people want to play it and as long as the developers want to develop it, it deserves to exist.
Or would you be the type of person to be told what to like and not to like, what to play and not to play?
I doubt it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Now thats concerning hope they get well soon I didn't think the preexisting health condition things were true considering that was hearsay then again it could be something else idk, either way I was hoping to see the end of the game by their own hands not death saying your on borrowed time -_- not a good ending in my book if they go die plus I wish death upon no one https://steamcommunity.com/app/342940/eventcomments/3105773861179684147?snr=1_5_9_&ctp=8
Some games deserve to die. I'm not quite sure if P:G is one of those or not, but it isn't winning points for the graphics or innovation. Like @tzervo said earlier, the game has some unique quirks, but beyond that it's not chocked full of innovative new features that every future game will copy and emulate.
If they were to rip out all the unity store assets in favor of better graphics, then this *might* be worth a VIP subscription *only* if you were interested in a very niche game.
P:G feels to me, at this point in time, like a game that is being kept afloat against it's will. Life support for an MMORPG that doesn't involve Daybreak? Now that's a thing!
That's just a really weird way of looking at it.
It's like saying that to merit its existence it has to have elements that others want to take and copy and expand.
It can't just be its own thing.
This is a fair question.
The simple answer is: No.
If something is new and good, it will be copied, because that is how things improve. Something new/better comes along, and others copy and adopt it, because it is better than what is currently. This is what innovation really is in a nut shell.
Something that is New that is Not Better, does not get copied, and often looked at as trying to reinvent the wheel.
Except games are also art and sometimes art is "a bit out there" and has a very small audience. However, that audience does appreciate it and love it even though "the masses" don't.
So the simple answer is: YES.
Gonna disagree with you on this one to a point.
Games are a product, they are made and built with the intent to be sold as a product for profit, and while they can be artistic creations to a point, just like a car is an artistic creation to a point, they are not art for the sake of art like the Statue of David is for example, and to equate them as such is simply no correct.
In fact an MMO is more akin to a Movie, it is artistic, but it is still designed to a sellable product, and a great plot and storytelling will often make up for bad acting and special effects, resulting in cult classics, and great acting and amazing special effects can make up for mediocre to poor plot and story telling, just Good plot and story telling, will not make up for bad acting and special effects.
And just like movies, if the plot and story telling are really that good, someone else is making a rip-off with better acting and special effects, as far as MMO's go, this is why we have so many WoW Clones.
So just being different is simply put, not enough to be any good.
Reminds me of this for example:
I suppose at the very least, the Quirks should be desired, something that the player base at least often pipes up and asks for. Not sure if this even happens with PG.
But, when people say that Game Play is worth more than Graphics, there stands a need for the gameplay to be exciting enough in and of its own right to overcome poor graphics, not an excuse to neglect the graphics and get on a high horse crying about graphics should not matter.
No, the idea is that a well made, top notch game, with truly engaging gameplay can overcome often subtle or less optimal graphics, it is also the idea that graphics are not a substitute for quality gameplay.
It does not mean that a game can have truly lacking graphics that look 20 years out of date, and while having decent mechanics, with perhaps (as cited above a few quirks) there is nothing groundbreakingly great going on, no.. that is not an excuse to have ridiculously sub par graphics.
Which gets us back to the point. No, if the gameplay is not good enough that at least some other studios are looking into it, to see what they are doing so well to overcome such poor investment into graphics, then simply put, they are not good enough to overcome the lack of graphics.
a great example of this, is games like Minecraft, Trove, Boundless, etc, with their blockly and crude voxel graphics, but the gameplay and how they opened up how MMO's could be made, was so good that almost everyone around them, started to look into how to adopt that same style of system, often with a graphic upgrade.
That is what people are talking about when they say, Gameplay is more Important that Graphics.
And Truth be told, I don't see PG falling into the category of Minecraft, where the vastness and truly amazing gameplay features more than make up for it's blocky and IMHO, childish to pudgy looking voxel graphics.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Games are a product, they are made and built with the intent to be sold as a product for profit, and while they can be artistic creations to a point, just like a car is an artistic creation to a point, they are not art for the sake of art like the Statue of David is for example, and to equate them as such is simply no correct.
In fact an MMO is more akin to a Movie, it is artistic, but it is still designed to a sellable product, and a great plot and storytelling will often make up for bad acting and special effects, resulting in cult classics, and great acting and amazing special effects can make up for mediocre to poor plot and story telling, just Good plot and story telling, will not make up for bad acting and special effects.
And just like movies, if the plot and story telling are really that good, someone else is making a rip-off with better acting and special effects, as far as MMO's go, this is why we have so many WoW Clones.
So just being different is simply put, not enough to be any good.
Reminds me of this for example:
I suppose at the very least, the Quirks should be desired, something that the player base at least often pipes up and asks for. Not sure if this even happens with PG.
But, when people say that Game Play is worth more than Graphics, there stands a need for the gameplay to be exciting enough in and of its own right to overcome poor graphics, not an excuse to neglect the graphics and get on a high horse crying about graphics should not matter.
No, the idea is that a well made, top notch game, with truly engaging gameplay can overcome often subtle or less optimal graphics, it is also the idea that graphics are not a substitute for quality gameplay.
It does not mean that a game can have truly lacking graphics that look 20 years out of date, and while having decent mechanics, with perhaps (as cited above a few quirks) there is nothing groundbreakingly great going on, no.. that is not an excuse to have ridiculously sub par graphics.
Which gets us back to the point. No, if the gameplay is not good enough that at least some other studios are looking into it, to see what they are doing so well to overcome such poor investment into graphics, then simply put, they are not good enough to overcome the lack of graphics.
a great example of this, is games like Minecraft, Trove, Boundless, etc, with their blockly and crude voxel graphics, but the gameplay and how they opened up how MMO's could be made, was so good that almost everyone around them, started to look into how to adopt that same style of system, often with a graphic upgrade.
That is what people are talking about when they say, Gameplay is more Important that Graphics.
And Truth be told, I don't see PG falling into the category of Minecraft, where the vastness and truly amazing gameplay features more than make up for it's blocky and IMHO, childish to pudgy looking voxel graphics.
But what you don't realize is that, all over the world, people take part in all sorts of activities that are NOT part of some greater we have to make giant profit or we fold idea.
I would say most people don't realize this.
This is not to say that people don't want to make money or need to make money.
But in the case of Gorgon it only needs to make as much as the creators need it to make.
And as long as people want to play it then it's its own little thing and doesn't have to be anything other than that.
If I go to a microtonal concert I can assure you that no one putting the concert on is thinking about having to make anything more than what they need to cover expenses.
If I go to some weird film festival I can assure you that though those people who made those films would like to make bank, they know they won't and are happy that someone is seeing their movie over not seeing their movie.
The world is filled with these little projects, these little experiences. They have meaning to those who put them on and to those who attend. And yes, I'm sure they'd all love to be rich from it but they know better and they still do it.
Sicne Gorgon is a small project, it can just be what it is for those developing it and for those playing it. It doesn't detract from the world for its existence.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I wasn't trying to "prove you wrong" I was showing YOUR OWN WORDS as an example of how you DO NOT own the game, play the game and could not "justify spending time on it" but for some strange reasonmove in the exact same direction not just in thread but in most threads as the paid shills..
No strange reason at all: I have an opinion and I agree with them.
This is the FULL sentence you wrote I separated that you accuse me of doing with malicious intent..
"Price was not what put me off, it just did not click with me to justify spending time on it."
Either you're shilling hard now or just don't understand that your FULL sentence is actually WORSE than just the part I removed to SHOW that you just didn't care for the game much.
Again with that weird insult.
- Yes it has enough quirks to make it more interesting and fresh than many other titles. This the reason I follow it still.
Me posting here is just a matter of following the game for the above reason and disagreeing with you. This "shilling" thing is pure ad hominem and utter BS.
"just did not click for me" is very broad and could be for various even personal reasons.
I gave the reasons earlier in this thread:
Hated the combat and overall handling especially, and nothing I read about what comes after in the game motivated me enough when researching it.
So, combat, handling (movement) and long-term goals.
Look, if you're really not an alt account of Slap or a paid shill with an agenda then I'm truly sorry to assume you were/are. The reasons why I thought you were is because as it has been proven in this thread the defining characteristics of paid shills are...
- Defend games they themselves do not play/have backed/paid for or as you said did not buy because you could not "justify spending any time in".
- In threads on this site the paid shills repeat the pattern of being the attacker and victim at the same time... or at the very least relentlessly attempt by any means necessary to paint the developer who has collected "hundreds of thousands" of dollars from unsuspecting gamers and will continue to do so for as long as the their game/project is up and running as victims. No matter what the circumstance/situation or if they are "1-2 person indie dev team" doesn't change the FACT that they are the ones actively collecting money from US. We SHOULD be able to discuss everything about the people collecting money from us without interruption from people with agendas(paid shills).
- Bring up useless information and even contradict their own words throughout the course of threads like Slapshot did about PG when he said he "opposes subs in beta" then seems perfectly fine with it later all for the purpose of creating artificial conversation/guiding direction.
For those who still doubt my paid shill theory think for second how many public discussion boards on the internet exist where the developers have little to no control over what's being written/said by people/players/customers and that answer is just one... HERE. Every other platform from Steam to Reddit can be shut down by devs but this is the one place where individuals like you and I and @Deathkon1 can START conversation about ANY topic and the devs cannot prevent the conversation from flowing freely UNLESS there are certain high rank members acting as gatekeepers who have offered to constantly create artificial conversation to divert/prevent organic conversation from ever occurring...for a price.. This site is also an archive of information that is preserved even further when a person reposts a quote because even after that member deletes their account those quotes still remain and will until this site no longer exists. That is permanent record/proof of behavior/activity in their OWN WORDS and for shady people/devs is like garlic/sunlight to vampires.
Let me ask you this... Do you really think that scamstarter & shady devs who have collected "hundreds of thousands" or even millions of dollars of free money + continue to collect wouldn't think twice about preventing REAL conversation from occurring about their schemes on the only available high traffic gaming site on the internet where many people go to read HONEST opinions about games? It's all about control of information to make more money. Whatever money spent on those deceptive efforts would be chalked down as a PR expense and most likely well worth it if it allowed the flow of money from unaware gamers to keep coming in.
AGAIN in the words of @DMKano "game developers aren't your friends"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I wasn't trying to "prove you wrong" I was showing YOUR OWN WORDS as an example of how you DO NOT own the game, play the game and could not "justify spending time on it" but for some strange reasonmove in the exact same direction not just in thread but in most threads as the paid shills..
No strange reason at all: I have an opinion and I agree with them.
This is the FULL sentence you wrote I separated that you accuse me of doing with malicious intent..
"Price was not what put me off, it just did not click with me to justify spending time on it."
Either you're shilling hard now or just don't understand that your FULL sentence is actually WORSE than just the part I removed to SHOW that you just didn't care for the game much.
Again with that weird insult.
- Yes it has enough quirks to make it more interesting and fresh than many other titles. This the reason I follow it still.
Me posting here is just a matter of following the game for the above reason and disagreeing with you. This "shilling" thing is pure ad hominem and utter BS.
"just did not click for me" is very broad and could be for various even personal reasons.
I gave the reasons earlier in this thread:
Hated the combat and overall handling especially, and nothing I read about what comes after in the game motivated me enough when researching it.
So, combat, handling (movement) and long-term goals.
Look, if you're really not an alt account of Slap or a paid shill with an agenda then I'm truly sorry to assume you were/are. The reasons why I thought you were is because as it has been proven in this thread the defining characteristics of paid shills are...
- Defend games they themselves do not play/have backed/paid for or as you said did not buy because you could not "justify spending any time in".
- In threads on this site the paid shills repeat the pattern of being the attacker and victim at the same time... or at the very least relentlessly attempt by any means necessary to paint the developer who has collected "hundreds of thousands" of dollars from unsuspecting gamers and will continue to do so for as long as the their game/project is up and running as victims. No matter what the circumstance/situation or if they are "1-2 person indie dev team" doesn't change the FACT that they are the ones actively collecting money from US. We SHOULD be able to discuss everything about the people collecting money from us without interruption from people with agendas(paid shills).
- Bring up useless information and even contradict their own words throughout the course of threads like Slapshot did about PG when he said he "opposes subs in beta" then seems perfectly fine with it later all for the purpose of creating artificial conversation/guiding direction.
For those who still doubt my paid shill theory think for second how many public discussion boards on the internet exist where the developers have little to no control over what's being written/said by people/players/customers and that answer is just one... HERE. Every other platform from Steam to Reddit can be shut down by devs but this is the one place where individuals like you and I and @Deathkon1 can START conversation about ANY topic and the devs cannot prevent the conversation from flowing freely UNLESS there are certain high rank members acting as gatekeepers who have offered to constantly create artificial conversation to divert/prevent organic conversation from ever occurring...for a price.. This site is also an archive of information that is preserved even further when a person reposts a quote because even after that member deletes their account those quotes still remain and will until this site no longer exists. That is permanent record/proof of behavior/activity in their OWN WORDS and for shady people/devs is like garlic/sunlight to vampires.
Let me ask you this... Do you really think that scamstarter & shady devs who have collected "hundreds of thousands" or even millions of dollars of free money + continue to collect wouldn't think twice about preventing REAL conversation from occurring about their schemes on the only available high traffic gaming site on the internet where many people go to read HONEST opinions about games? It's all about control of information to make more money. Whatever money spent on those deceptive efforts would be chalked down as a PR expense and most likely well worth it if it allowed the flow of money from unaware gamers to keep coming in.
AGAIN in the words of @DMKano "game developers aren't your friends"
Perfect example of why we should always let people type and respond to their hearts content so that everyone can read it.
I assume that most people can understand the difference between thinking the sub is a good/bad idea and believing that if a company TELLS you they are going to do so, and then does it well, that's on YOU.
Bottom line: If a company tells you they are going to put in a sub and the sub will include storage, and you do not agree with that monetization, then do not invest 1500 hours of your time in the game and complain when they do implement it.
Seems very simple, yet this is the 4th or 5th time it's being explained...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I wasn't trying to "prove you wrong" I was showing YOUR OWN WORDS as an example of how you DO NOT own the game, play the game and could not "justify spending time on it" but for some strange reasonmove in the exact same direction not just in thread but in most threads as the paid shills..
No strange reason at all: I have an opinion and I agree with them.
This is the FULL sentence you wrote I separated that you accuse me of doing with malicious intent..
"Price was not what put me off, it just did not click with me to justify spending time on it."
Either you're shilling hard now or just don't understand that your FULL sentence is actually WORSE than just the part I removed to SHOW that you just didn't care for the game much.
Again with that weird insult.
- Yes it has enough quirks to make it more interesting and fresh than many other titles. This the reason I follow it still.
Me posting here is just a matter of following the game for the above reason and disagreeing with you. This "shilling" thing is pure ad hominem and utter BS.
"just did not click for me" is very broad and could be for various even personal reasons.
I gave the reasons earlier in this thread:
Hated the combat and overall handling especially, and nothing I read about what comes after in the game motivated me enough when researching it.
So, combat, handling (movement) and long-term goals.
Look, if you're really not an alt account of Slap or a paid shill with an agenda then I'm truly sorry to assume you were/are. The reasons why I thought you were is because as it has been proven in this thread the defining characteristics of paid shills are...
- Defend games they themselves do not play/have backed/paid for or as you said did not buy because you could not "justify spending any time in".
- In threads on this site the paid shills repeat the pattern of being the attacker and victim at the same time... or at the very least relentlessly attempt by any means necessary to paint the developer who has collected "hundreds of thousands" of dollars from unsuspecting gamers and will continue to do so for as long as the their game/project is up and running as victims. No matter what the circumstance/situation or if they are "1-2 person indie dev team" doesn't change the FACT that they are the ones actively collecting money from US. We SHOULD be able to discuss everything about the people collecting money from us without interruption from people with agendas(paid shills).
- Bring up useless information and even contradict their own words throughout the course of threads like Slapshot did about PG when he said he "opposes subs in beta" then seems perfectly fine with it later all for the purpose of creating artificial conversation/guiding direction.
For those who still doubt my paid shill theory think for second how many public discussion boards on the internet exist where the developers have little to no control over what's being written/said by people/players/customers and that answer is just one... HERE. Every other platform from Steam to Reddit can be shut down by devs but this is the one place where individuals like you and I and @Deathkon1 can START conversation about ANY topic and the devs cannot prevent the conversation from flowing freely UNLESS there are certain high rank members acting as gatekeepers who have offered to constantly create artificial conversation to divert/prevent organic conversation from ever occurring...for a price.. This site is also an archive of information that is preserved even further when a person reposts a quote because even after that member deletes their account those quotes still remain and will until this site no longer exists. That is permanent record/proof of behavior/activity in their OWN WORDS and for shady people/devs is like garlic/sunlight to vampires.
Let me ask you this... Do you really think that scamstarter & shady devs who have collected "hundreds of thousands" or even millions of dollars of free money + continue to collect wouldn't think twice about preventing REAL conversation from occurring about their schemes on the only available high traffic gaming site on the internet where many people go to read HONEST opinions about games? It's all about control of information to make more money. Whatever money spent on those deceptive efforts would be chalked down as a PR expense and most likely well worth it if it allowed the flow of money from unaware gamers to keep coming in.
AGAIN in the words of @DMKano "game developers aren't your friends"
You really need to step away from the PC and get outside the fact that you are quoting the Trion White Knight Turned Black Knight, Who tried and failed to fool this community with an alt acct , was caught lying more than once .. and got everything wrong relative to Trion and there IPs only confirms your need for fresh air ..
And i say this in a friendly manner , take a break Brudha
I'm so glad the back up arrived with the insults and to remind me of the one part I forgot to include in my previous post which is...
- People with agendas(paid shills) ALWAYS claim that "no one reads this site" and/or play down the importance of people voicing their opinions in an attempt to DETER and completely prevent organic conversation. They themselves have proven in this thread by throwing everything including the kitchen sink to prevent REAL conversation from occurring BAMN. Yet they ALSO want you to believe that all the effort they've been putting forward is supposed to be for nothing because no one comes here?
If no one reads this site and barely comes here why try to stop lowly forum posters from speaking through tag team efforts, insults, lying, manipulation for games they themselves do not own or play? Why as 'Legendary' decades old members attack new posters with 19 post count through an obvious joint effort then claim to be the victims?
If no one visits this site then why do these certain same individuals post here all day AND night? Why do game companies pay this site for advertisements if no one comes here? Why did this site recently change ownership? If no one came to this site wouldn't it just have shut down instead of changing owners? Surely no game company would pay advertising fees if this site didn't have a moderate amount of traffic?
@Scorchien - You've admitted to being retired at 50 + owning Blizzard stocks + other game company stock. You always defend Blizzard because when they do good you do good. That is financially motivated behavior just like these other jokers so it's really no surprise that you're trying just like them to stop the truth about shill behavior from being exposed for anyone willing to read about it/entertain the possibility.
About @DMKano - Whoever he actually is and even if he did shill hard for Trion for over a decade he at least dropped nuggets of truth here and there not like these jokers..EVERYTHING these shills pretend to know about is surface level/can be found on google info OR they pass off what other posters here have said before as their own. It's disgusting behavior to try and pass off another person's words as your own then pretend to be the first one who said it. That is how I know they are bottom level sales people/paid shills.
AFTER Trion Kano revealed a lot but many people here were too caught up in their dislike for him to notice. I was PISSED about him fking with us for a DECADE just so Trion could profit but even when he was shilling hard I had a legit honest debate with him. He also never relentlessly insulted, tried to get me to shut up or attempted to manipulate others into working for his personal interests. For those reasons I hold Kano 10x higher than these jokers who continuously contradict their own words.
Games are a product, they are made and built with the intent to be sold as a product for profit, and while they can be artistic creations to a point, just like a car is an artistic creation to a point, they are not art for the sake of art like the Statue of David is for example, and to equate them as such is simply no correct.
In fact an MMO is more akin to a Movie, it is artistic, but it is still designed to a sellable product, and a great plot and storytelling will often make up for bad acting and special effects, resulting in cult classics, and great acting and amazing special effects can make up for mediocre to poor plot and story telling, just Good plot and story telling, will not make up for bad acting and special effects.
And just like movies, if the plot and story telling are really that good, someone else is making a rip-off with better acting and special effects, as far as MMO's go, this is why we have so many WoW Clones.
So just being different is simply put, not enough to be any good.
Reminds me of this for example:
I suppose at the very least, the Quirks should be desired, something that the player base at least often pipes up and asks for. Not sure if this even happens with PG.
But, when people say that Game Play is worth more than Graphics, there stands a need for the gameplay to be exciting enough in and of its own right to overcome poor graphics, not an excuse to neglect the graphics and get on a high horse crying about graphics should not matter.
No, the idea is that a well made, top notch game, with truly engaging gameplay can overcome often subtle or less optimal graphics, it is also the idea that graphics are not a substitute for quality gameplay.
It does not mean that a game can have truly lacking graphics that look 20 years out of date, and while having decent mechanics, with perhaps (as cited above a few quirks) there is nothing groundbreakingly great going on, no.. that is not an excuse to have ridiculously sub par graphics.
Which gets us back to the point. No, if the gameplay is not good enough that at least some other studios are looking into it, to see what they are doing so well to overcome such poor investment into graphics, then simply put, they are not good enough to overcome the lack of graphics.
a great example of this, is games like Minecraft, Trove, Boundless, etc, with their blockly and crude voxel graphics, but the gameplay and how they opened up how MMO's could be made, was so good that almost everyone around them, started to look into how to adopt that same style of system, often with a graphic upgrade.
That is what people are talking about when they say, Gameplay is more Important that Graphics.
And Truth be told, I don't see PG falling into the category of Minecraft, where the vastness and truly amazing gameplay features more than make up for it's blocky and IMHO, childish to pudgy looking voxel graphics.
But what you don't realize is that, all over the world, people take part in all sorts of activities that are NOT part of some greater we have to make giant profit or we fold idea.
I would say most people don't realize this.
This is not to say that people don't want to make money or need to make money.
But in the case of Gorgon it only needs to make as much as the creators need it to make.
And as long as people want to play it then it's its own little thing and doesn't have to be anything other than that.
If I go to a microtonal concert I can assure you that no one putting the concert on is thinking about having to make anything more than what they need to cover expenses.
If I go to some weird film festival I can assure you that though those people who made those films would like to make bank, they know they won't and are happy that someone is seeing their movie over not seeing their movie.
The world is filled with these little projects, these little experiences. They have meaning to those who put them on and to those who attend. And yes, I'm sure they'd all love to be rich from it but they know better and they still do it.
Sicne Gorgon is a small project, it can just be what it is for those developing it and for those playing it. It doesn't detract from the world for its existence.
Just a few points.
When it comes to Indie Film Festivals, some of the really good shorts and videos do launch into something far greater, or the creative team gets picked up by some of the more major players. Which is a small part of the film festivals to start with, talent scouts looking for people with the next great fresh new ideas, or creators that can pave the way to innovation.
That might not be something that is talked about, but it is there none the less. Same with Music Festivals, even alternate ones, or fringe, ergo Burning Man for example, it has grown exponentially over the years, which, while maybe no one says publicly, is really what every music event coordinator wants, to have their event be the next Burning Man.
And while talking about Music, Just like musicians, sure they all claim that they are just there to make Music, and maybe they even believe it, but, there are all kinds of Music fads that come and go, and the good ones, stay and grow into a "Era" or a "Genre" and they are often launched by a single band, that was just doing it right, as it were. While some bands have become famous, they never went beyond their little niche, and while they might have been a good band, doing it for the love of the music, what they made was not growth worthy.
The fact that I have been in several discussions on this forum, ongoing right now, with Dream World, and talking about what people will throw money at, while seeing people talking about about the lunacy of what people will throw money at, is not lost on me.
Because of that, simply put, the idea that people will throw money at it, does not give it merit as something worth having money thrown at it, which was the main point, that some MMO's deserve to close. A huge part of this, is also built on other issues, like the fact gamers threw 8 Million at Soul Bound, and defended this action, as believing the game being worth their money, and even citing that they were not affecting anyone else, that it is their money to do what they want, etc. Pretty much the same arguments you are putting out with people spending money on PG. Now I am not saying that PG needs to close, but that this is exactly why, the idea that people will toss money at something, is not a metric that makes it is worth having money tossed at it.
Even if this does not rob me of money directly, it does, as many others have said, have a ripple effect, where it makes it so that some developers feel they can pump out an abysmally poor product (or no product at all) and still expect to make money off desperate and even gullible players.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I do not want to get into the "paid shill" discussion for other posters either. And I think it is obvious that I am not an alt account of anyone, my writing style is different.
Let me give an example from another game, Screeps (since I understand your beef with my arguments is not liking or playing P:G):
- I play that game actively these days - it is one of my favorite MMOs - it has graphics that are even lower fidelity than P:G and trivial to draw - it has a box price and a sub (and had it in early access too) - the sub unlocks being able to control more rooms so it definitely gives a competitive edge - it is indie and niche - I have no issue supporting it
as proof that what I say below I actually apply it in practice for other games and I do not just say it in the air to defend P:G
Generally I do not pay for a game based on its and the devs' needs or production cost, but based on its value to me. If I liked P:G I would not hesitate paying its box price and its sub, since I would be playing it for hours. So it being indie or having Unity assets is irrelevant. Likewise, I am not giving 1h or $1 to many AAA games that I do not like and do not consider worth it.
If the conversation between you and I had been an actual argument or real debate it wouldn't be acceptable to swap out and replace the game we've been discussing all along with another one to prove the statement(s) you made to be true...
But seeing as it wasn't a real argument or debate and you're saying right now that you're not an alt account or shill then we're on the same team so I'll say OK! and understand your statement as it relates to the other game you support financially and have experience playing.
And while talking about Music, Just like musicians, sure they all claim that they are just there to make Music, and maybe they even believe it, but, there are all kinds of Music fads that come and go, and the good ones, stay and grow into a "Era" or a "Genre" and they are often launched by a single band, that was just doing it right, as it were. While some bands have become famous, they never went beyond their little niche, and while they might have been a good band, doing it for the love of the music, what they made was not growth worthy.
Just a few points ...
Every artist, no matter what their "art is" wants to make money and wants to make a good living. There are amateurs, in the purist sense of the word, who don't care about the money, but professional artists all want to make money.
Having said that, we aren't quite talking about the same thing. So, for example, I write music but have made very little money off it. However, when I was younger I completely made a living as a musician. But it wasn't artistically fulfilling, it was essentially gigging.
Professionals, unless they are well established in their field, usually do something that makes money but then they indulge in more creative work. Sometimes that work makes nothing.
Heck, my college professor told me that the life of a composer (my final degree) was going to prepare me for an a la carte life where sometimes I'd write music, sometimes teach it, sometimes do gigs, sometimes private lessons, etc.
So when I talk about people getting together to play in a swing band or a microtonal concert, or some Avante Garde theater production, and making no money but doing it because it's worth it to them and their audience, that's what I'm talking about.
Regarding your other point about people throwing money at a project, your example and project gorgon are different. Project gorgon is a playable game that has a playerbase (albeit very small) and they aren't really asking all that much to continue.
So as long as they want to develop for small bits of money and as long as they have players then more power to their little enclave.
In your example of dream world, the kickstarter seems to be a complete scam. So yes, then your more clear point of people throwing money at something that won't come to fruition makes more sense.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I dunno man, I can spend a few hours here, screwing around, I don't last 10 min on a porn site screwing around.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
The simple answer is: No.
If something is new and good, it will be copied, because that is how things improve. Something new/better comes along, and others copy and adopt it, because it is better than what is currently. This is what innovation really is in a nut shell.
Something that is New that is Not Better, does not get copied, and often looked at as trying to reinvent the wheel.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
https://steamcommunity.com/app/342940/eventcomments/3105773861179684147?snr=1_5_9_&ctp=8
Games are a product, they are made and built with the intent to be sold as a product for profit, and while they can be artistic creations to a point, just like a car is an artistic creation to a point, they are not art for the sake of art like the Statue of David is for example, and to equate them as such is simply no correct.
In fact an MMO is more akin to a Movie, it is artistic, but it is still designed to a sellable product, and a great plot and storytelling will often make up for bad acting and special effects, resulting in cult classics, and great acting and amazing special effects can make up for mediocre to poor plot and story telling, just Good plot and story telling, will not make up for bad acting and special effects.
And just like movies, if the plot and story telling are really that good, someone else is making a rip-off with better acting and special effects, as far as MMO's go, this is why we have so many WoW Clones.
So just being different is simply put, not enough to be any good.
Reminds me of this for example:
I suppose at the very least, the Quirks should be desired, something that the player base at least often pipes up and asks for. Not sure if this even happens with PG.
But, when people say that Game Play is worth more than Graphics, there stands a need for the gameplay to be exciting enough in and of its own right to overcome poor graphics, not an excuse to neglect the graphics and get on a high horse crying about graphics should not matter.
No, the idea is that a well made, top notch game, with truly engaging gameplay can overcome often subtle or less optimal graphics, it is also the idea that graphics are not a substitute for quality gameplay.
It does not mean that a game can have truly lacking graphics that look 20 years out of date, and while having decent mechanics, with perhaps (as cited above a few quirks) there is nothing groundbreakingly great going on, no.. that is not an excuse to have ridiculously sub par graphics.
Which gets us back to the point. No, if the gameplay is not good enough that at least some other studios are looking into it, to see what they are doing so well to overcome such poor investment into graphics, then simply put, they are not good enough to overcome the lack of graphics.
a great example of this, is games like Minecraft, Trove, Boundless, etc, with their blockly and crude voxel graphics, but the gameplay and how they opened up how MMO's could be made, was so good that almost everyone around them, started to look into how to adopt that same style of system, often with a graphic upgrade.
That is what people are talking about when they say, Gameplay is more Important that Graphics.
And Truth be told, I don't see PG falling into the category of Minecraft, where the vastness and truly amazing gameplay features more than make up for it's blocky and IMHO, childish to pudgy looking voxel graphics.
I would say most people don't realize this.
This is not to say that people don't want to make money or need to make money.
But in the case of Gorgon it only needs to make as much as the creators need it to make.
And as long as people want to play it then it's its own little thing and doesn't have to be anything other than that.
If I go to a microtonal concert I can assure you that no one putting the concert on is thinking about having to make anything more than what they need to cover expenses.
If I go to some weird film festival I can assure you that though those people who made those films would like to make bank, they know they won't and are happy that someone is seeing their movie over not seeing their movie.
The world is filled with these little projects, these little experiences. They have meaning to those who put them on and to those who attend. And yes, I'm sure they'd all love to be rich from it but they know better and they still do it.
Sicne Gorgon is a small project, it can just be what it is for those developing it and for those playing it. It doesn't detract from the world for its existence.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Here's a good resource to help the more paranoid posters here better understand the behaviors of others on this site and others.
https://medium.com/indian-thoughts/inside-the-mind-of-an-internet-troll-bdab32a0dc4e
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I assume that most people can understand the difference between thinking the sub is a good/bad idea and believing that if a company TELLS you they are going to do so, and then does it well, that's on YOU.
Bottom line: If a company tells you they are going to put in a sub and the sub will include storage, and you do not agree with that monetization, then do not invest 1500 hours of your time in the game and complain when they do implement it.
Seems very simple, yet this is the 4th or 5th time it's being explained...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
When it comes to Indie Film Festivals, some of the really good shorts and videos do launch into something far greater, or the creative team gets picked up by some of the more major players. Which is a small part of the film festivals to start with, talent scouts looking for people with the next great fresh new ideas, or creators that can pave the way to innovation.
That might not be something that is talked about, but it is there none the less. Same with Music Festivals, even alternate ones, or fringe, ergo Burning Man for example, it has grown exponentially over the years, which, while maybe no one says publicly, is really what every music event coordinator wants, to have their event be the next Burning Man.
And while talking about Music, Just like musicians, sure they all claim that they are just there to make Music, and maybe they even believe it, but, there are all kinds of Music fads that come and go, and the good ones, stay and grow into a "Era" or a "Genre" and they are often launched by a single band, that was just doing it right, as it were. While some bands have become famous, they never went beyond their little niche, and while they might have been a good band, doing it for the love of the music, what they made was not growth worthy.
The fact that I have been in several discussions on this forum, ongoing right now, with Dream World, and talking about what people will throw money at, while seeing people talking about about the lunacy of what people will throw money at, is not lost on me.
Because of that, simply put, the idea that people will throw money at it, does not give it merit as something worth having money thrown at it, which was the main point, that some MMO's deserve to close. A huge part of this, is also built on other issues, like the fact gamers threw 8 Million at Soul Bound, and defended this action, as believing the game being worth their money, and even citing that they were not affecting anyone else, that it is their money to do what they want, etc. Pretty much the same arguments you are putting out with people spending money on PG. Now I am not saying that PG needs to close, but that this is exactly why, the idea that people will toss money at something, is not a metric that makes it is worth having money tossed at it.
Even if this does not rob me of money directly, it does, as many others have said, have a ripple effect, where it makes it so that some developers feel they can pump out an abysmally poor product (or no product at all) and still expect to make money off desperate and even gullible players.
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo