Jaded players

ultimateduck

It may just be my perception, but it seems like a majority of the people here are so jaded they actually seem to hate just about every MMO, from those in development to the newly released. Some will say it's because the MMOs getting released are garbage and not worthy of praise, but I think it goes beyond that.

Many times people will aggressively argue a point that is impossible for them to know just to have a reason to complain... the intent of a developer, how cash shops will work, financial data, everything a game designer touches is destined to fail, etc. If someone likes the game that is being bashed by the group of heavy posters that commonly try to destroy every MMO, they are often berated for "burying their head in the sand" or "remaining willfully ignorant to what is right in front of their face" (paraphrasing).

Has the negativity of these forums just festered into a "who can complain the most on seemingly made up information to seem like they are in the know"?... do these people genuinely dislike all MMOs and have become almost addicted to coming here to argue?... or are MMOs simply on a downward spiral that is destined to fail as developers try to desperately grasp on to the remaining WoW players looking for something new?

SKurj

meh the negativity is commonplace on almost every game forum i visit as well... it is not isolated to this site.

Amaranthar

This is tame compared to the way things used to be. Very tame. And I'm talking about this specific site.
There were some problems with some trolling that they seem to have gotten a handle on. 
Or maybe the trolls simply realized what they were doing and lightened up. 
But it's much better than it once was. 

Mendel

ultimateduck said:

It may just be my perception, but it seems like a majority of the people here are so jaded they actually seem to hate just about every MMO, from those in development to the newly released. Some will say it's because the MMOs getting released are garbage and not worthy of praise, but I think it goes beyond that.

Many times people will aggressively argue a point that is impossible for them to know just to have a reason to complain... the intent of a developer, how cash shops will work, financial data, everything a game designer touches is destined to fail, etc. If someone likes the game that is being bashed by the group of heavy posters that commonly try to destroy every MMO, they are often berated for "burying their head in the sand" or "remaining willfully ignorant to what is right in front of their face" (paraphrasing).

Has the negativity of these forums just festered into a "who can complain the most on seemingly made up information to seem like they are in the know"?... do these people genuinely dislike all MMOs and have become almost addicted to coming here to argue?... or are MMOs simply on a downward spiral that is destined to fail as developers try to desperately grasp on to the remaining WoW players looking for something new?

I'm not jaded; I just like green.

What I dislike most about the gaming industry is the attitudes displayed by some developers.  I want games to evolve, but too often 'evolution' is interpreted as a new name for an older idea.  Then the developers, thinking they're clever, start touting the name change as a new, critical idea that will revolutionize the way we play games.  It feels a bit disingenuous to me.  The developers tend to latch onto their ideas and protect them at all costs, and expect the followers of that game to protect them too.  It tends to build false hope in the consumers.

All that derives from the developers.  A typical forum for a game turns into an echo chamber, enforced by paid moderators.  Customers are criticized for pointing out a possible flaw, like how an open world PvP might turn into a gankfest, but the developers simply seem to say 'not in our game' as if that belief will change human nature.

Game development was better when the consumer didn't know anything about a game until the week of the launch.

AlBQuirky

Yes, this site does have its "fair share" of complainers. I'm one of them

I do try to NOT go overboard on my criticisms yet see many posters that have no trouble kicking everything under sun with their complaints.

For me, the genre has deteriorated from what I used to enjoy about "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games." The description about Skyrim is very appropriate here: "A mile wide and an inch deep." Most MMOs today have very little depth. Most are so shallow that most players just consume content then leave until "the next expansion drops." Not all players, mind you, but way too many for my tastes. "Fair weather friends" is what those players resemble, to me.

Even the old titles have morphed into shallow shells of their former selves. Many have "private servers" that try to capture the old games, but without the player numbers throughout the playerbase, they miss the mark. I've tried to play P99 (EverQuest's private server) and there are too few players playing at zero level. Chat is filled with raid requests, uber item sales, and very little "starting out character looking for help" requests. That defeats what EQ was "way back when", when grouping was how one advanced in the game.

As a side note for me personally, players today are not players I want to have multiplayer experiences with.  Sure, there were trolls and such way back when, as I'm not trying to paint a "picture of perfection" for the times. At least the players were on the same page instead of all going out and doing their own thing. There was a shared consideration of other players

I don't fault players for liking or enjoying the "new breed" of MMOs. They have just passed me by. I wish them all the best of luck in continuing to enjoy the games

Sovrath

Mendel said:

ultimateduck said:

It may just be my perception, but it seems like a majority of the people here are so jaded they actually seem to hate just about every MMO, from those in development to the newly released. Some will say it's because the MMOs getting released are garbage and not worthy of praise, but I think it goes beyond that.

Many times people will aggressively argue a point that is impossible for them to know just to have a reason to complain... the intent of a developer, how cash shops will work, financial data, everything a game designer touches is destined to fail, etc. If someone likes the game that is being bashed by the group of heavy posters that commonly try to destroy every MMO, they are often berated for "burying their head in the sand" or "remaining willfully ignorant to what is right in front of their face" (paraphrasing).

Has the negativity of these forums just festered into a "who can complain the most on seemingly made up information to seem like they are in the know"?... do these people genuinely dislike all MMOs and have become almost addicted to coming here to argue?... or are MMOs simply on a downward spiral that is destined to fail as developers try to desperately grasp on to the remaining WoW players looking for something new?

I'm not jaded; I just like green.

What I dislike most about the gaming industry is the attitudes displayed by some developers.  I want games to evolve, but too often 'evolution' is interpreted as a new name for an older idea.  Then the developers, thinking they're clever, start touting the name change as a new, critical idea that will revolutionize the way we play games.  It feels a bit disingenuous to me.  The developers tend to latch onto their ideas and protect them at all costs, and expect the followers of that game to protect them too.  It tends to build false hope in the consumers.

All that derives from the developers.  A typical forum for a game turns into an echo chamber, enforced by paid moderators.  Customers are criticized for pointing out a possible flaw, like how an open world PvP might turn into a gankfest, but the developers simply seem to say 'not in our game' as if that belief will change human nature.

Game development was better when the consumer didn't know anything about a game until the week of the launch.

It's so much simpler.

Developers are just creatives/technicians and are as fallible as any of us. It's their job to make games.

Some of them are lucky to break off from larger companies to make the games they want. And if they want to make a pure pvp, full loot extravaganza then good on them. I'm sure they don't want to constantly have players, many of them not knowing how explain themselves without resorting to abrasive attacks. And sure, having paid moderators will help them keep their forums from becoming a virtual yell fest.

Now, some of these developers are more fallible than others and instead of getting professional people who know how to interface (to use a word) with their customers, they attempt to be themselves in a customer service role.

They have the right to make the game they want to. They have the right to stick to their vision, no matter what others say. 

I suspect the "others" should not be there in the first place as they aren't the demographic the developers are going for.


Annnd the developers have the right to succeed or fail like any endeavor.

cameltosis

I've no idea whether you could describe me as jaded or not.

The current MMORPG market certainly isn't providing me with any games I enjoy. It's now been 8 years since I last had an MMO "home", and I'm definitely disappointed about that.

But at the same time, I'm still full of (naive) hope for the future. I see an incredible amount of potential for the genre as a whole, potential that has barely been touched by previous games. I guess this is where part of my issue lies: it gets very depressing watching studios implement features in their most basic form, rather than embracing the potential and pushing for something better.

Finally, the thing that pisses me off most is watching studios repeat the mistakes of the past. When you've seen a feature fail, or cause significant problems, in many previous games, why the fuck are you copying it again? I just don't get it.

I have no problem if you try out a new feature and it fails, but copying a feature that's already failed for others is just dumb.

Cryomatrix

I am a jaded mmo player that is because i havent really seen any innovation in about 15+ years, seems all the same to me. 

Wizardry

well @ the OP....

What might seem impossible to know can actually be easy to know if you know how to do research.Also in the equation is KNOWLEDGE,just knowing all the ins and outs to the point you can spot exactly what the developer/publisher is up to w/o them telling it to your face.

Ok now the part where i let you in on the know....

99% of these games are already working with marketing teams to hype up their game long before it comes out.Also in the works are MANY,thousands of influencers,cotnent creators that will "sometimes"inadvertenly blurt out some information that might be damning while doing their best to BS you.
It all depends if you sit around and just wait till the last minute then buy into a video hype that isn't even game play.
I also have 10's of thousands of game hours under my belt which allows me to spot things in the first 5 seconds of a video and all of this BEFORE a game is actually released but then again how many games are just early access now days ?

So here is some food for thought.....

When a developer tells YOU their game is not finished,not fully polished as in >>"Early ACCESS"why do so many try and defend these games as being polished and finished  but when any criticsm comes in they remind us it is only EA?

Last but not least,i simply chalk it down to people a VERY large majority that don't understand game design so they don't understand what is a WEAK effort from a good effort.I am not blaming people i am just saying that i bet MOST do not care to educate themselves or understand it and that is fine,THEIR choice but don't come crying all defensive White Knight style when FLAWS or TERRIBLE crappy effort is put into games are mentioned.

MOST 99% of these games are flat out just really bad and of the last 1% many are just reskins of that one game they finally got a break with.So before i leave an example....
The recent Cyberpunk game was not the first in the series but was already a popular series.How much bad publicity di the versions prior receive...none?You see CD PRojekt imo figured they could simply release anything half assed and just make millions,they got LAZY and greedy at the same time.They FIGURED they could just market the lightshow and that alone would sell millions.After the inital marketing hype how many people cared about that game,like 2 weeks later it pretty much disappeared from the spotlight as a super hyped game.

So..WHY did i mention Cyberpunk,well if you read my entire post it leads right into the DEVELOEPR admitting flaws and bad work AND the investors were also NOT  happy but yet again we had white knights trying to point fingers at others as if to say maybe we are just whiners complaining abotu everything?

Theocritus

I think it comes with experience...When you've seen the same thing rehashed over and over the past 17 years, then it does get the been there done that feeling. I think part of it is burnout on doing the same thing over and over again......Many of us have found some great single player games over the past decade, but MMOs? Not so much. Also we can go to YOutube or watch streams of all these new MMOs so we have a pretty good idea of what they are, unlike in the old days.

Iselin

So this is a complaint thread about people who complain?

Unintended irony is always the best type.

MaxBacon

Oh it's called forumdads

That's what forums are now, the internet version of that oldman neighbor yelling at a cloud for blocking his sunlight

The MMO genre has not been healthy for a while, but to the posters here, I feel their salt needs to be directed at the big boy studios that the money and resources to pull off big-budget MMO titles, and not to smaller dev teams trying to do what the big ones ain't doing.

ultimateduck

Iselin said:

So this is a complaint thread about people who complain?

Unintended irony is always the best type.

LOL, no. I'm genuinely curious. If a new game is coming out that looks bad, I don't waste my time arguing with the people that think it looks good. I suppose I'm looking for what motivates a person to waste their day posting about a game they dislike or have no intention of playing.

While this post wasn't pointing at anyone directly, some people do pop into my head when I think about it.

Wizardry is a good example, even here answering the question. Most of us have been playing MMOs for 10 to 20 years. Most of us have played many MMOs. We've all watched videos, read developer notes and updates, seen interviews, played betas, etc. on many, many MMOs. Wizardry thinks he knows enough to argue with everyone about nearly every MMO. Maybe he does know more, but why argue with people who like the game or have a different opinion? What motivates a person like that to be like that?

I suppose it's something I just don't understand and, in my old age, am often curious what makes people tick.

So far, it seems tzervo is correct that people just like to bitch about things and have become almost addicted to complaining and arguing.

cameltosis

tzervo said:

cameltosis said:

Finally, the thing that pisses me off most is watching studios repeat the mistakes of the past. When you've seen a feature fail, or cause significant problems, in many previous games, why the fuck are you copying it again? I just don't get it.

I have no problem if you try out a new feature and it fails, but copying a feature that's already failed for others is just dumb.

Like? Because I see people calling a feature "failed" when it is really just not to their tastes and something someone else would like, and every time there is an example of a successful game with that feature.

Almost every time the "failed" feature is actually not failed, or just a trade-off for another effect.

By failed feature, I mean a feature that is intended to achieve a specific effect but fails to do so (failure in design) as well as features that directly get in the way of commercial success.

By features that cause significant harm, I mean features that are working as intended but still cause significant damage to either the longevity of a game, enjoyment of the game or whatever.

Common examples:

1) Full featured crafting systems in a game that is based around dropped loot.

We've all seen it, it's common in nearly every mmorpg, but its completely wasted effort. Whats the point in developing all these intricate systems to give us a crafting system that is made mostly pointless by the rest of the game? Why not spend your dev time developing a crafting system that is actually worthwhile?

2) Genuine FFA PvP

I'm not denying that there is a market for FFA PvP MMORPGs, there is, it's just extremely niche. Yet, so many devs come along thinking they're going to be the ones who get it right, despite copying the systems of all the games that already shut down?

3) Vertical Progression (especially in PvP focused games)

This causes major issues with retention in every single MMORPG. How often do we hear complaints about lack of endgame content, or how boring leveling is, or how we wish there was more leveling / journey? This is all related to vertical progression, which ensures that only a tiny slice of the game is ever relevant at any one time and ensures we all end up at endgame eventually.

In a PvP game it's even worse. The veterans have already got the advantage in knowledge, teamwork and personal skill, now you're giving them even more advantages through increased power? How dumb! This absolutely kills the lifeblood of PvP games by ensuring that newbies have a terrible time.

This is the sort of thing I mean.

To be clear, im not arguing against having crafting, or pvp, or vertical progression. I'm just saying that the historical way of implementing these features causes problems and it is frustrating watching new devs repeat those problems when there are better solutions.

As an example, crafting.

What is the point of implementing an armoursmith profession when the game hands out better armour through quests, dungeons, raids and pvp? It seems very self-defeating.

If the game is loot-based, then focus the crafting on something that cannot be acquired through loot, like consumables, or housing stuff, or pure cosmetics etc. That way, the players who enjoy crafting still have something to do, but now it is much more relevant and worthwhile.

Gdemami

ultimateduck said:

So far, it seems tzervo is correct that people just like to bitch about things and have become almost addicted to complaining and arguing.

...that's not what he said.

What he talks about is self-entitlement.

My take on self-entitlement is that it comes either as "genuine" character trait and/or is a result of one's stupidity - one is uncapable to account for or realize there is more than there is to their limited knowledge, experience and intelect ("they are in the know tho!").

That is how you end up with:

"If I do not like games being made, that means they are shit".
"If devs are not making a game how I think games should be made, that means they are clueless."
"If devs are not running their business how I think business should be run, that means they are scammers and thieves."

etc. etc.

That is how it always has been and that's all fine - not all people can be bright, educated, have broader worldview or just elementary self-reflection.

You can usually find them among the poor and working class, the ones that always complain how rich don't pay high enough taxes or how "immoral" money they make and similar dumb crap. Add to that the open platform such as internet and you have it at your face at every turn, if you are not careful

It's just natural, no mystery there.

Iselin

ultimateduck said:

Iselin said:

So this is a complaint thread about people who complain?

Unintended irony is always the best type.

LOL, no. I'm genuinely curious. If a new game is coming out that looks bad, I don't waste my time arguing with the people that think it looks good. I suppose I'm looking for what motivates a person to waste their day posting about a game they dislike or have no intention of playing.

While this post wasn't pointing at anyone directly, some people do pop into my head when I think about it.

Wizardry is a good example, even here answering the question. Most of us have been playing MMOs for 10 to 20 years. Most of us have played many MMOs. We've all watched videos, read developer notes and updates, seen interviews, played betas, etc. on many, many MMOs. Wizardry thinks he knows enough to argue with everyone about nearly every MMO. Maybe he does know more, but why argue with people who like the game or have a different opinion? What motivates a person like that to be like that?

I suppose it's something I just don't understand and, in my old age, am often curious what makes people tick.

So far, it seems tzervo is correct that people just like to bitch about things and have become almost addicted to complaining and arguing.

You don't know Wizardry as well as you think you do if you think he likes to "argue with everyone about nearly every MMO."

He in fact almost never interacts directly with anyone here. Yeah, he hates everything (like Mikey from that old cereal ad) but he just randomly posts, often totally off topic, just to beat his own drum and never engages anyone who mocks or ridicules him.

As to why people post negative comments on games they are not playing. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it's a game they were quietly following and hoping for good things but were disappointed with the end result so they express their disappointment in a post?

At any rate I really don't care who posts what negative or positive comment and I can easily tune out the "it sucks" habitual posters and only rarely call them out when they post something that is just factually incorrect.

But I don't see the point of meta posting about jaded players in general. Call it an expression of curiosity if that makes you feel better but to my eyes it looks like complaining about complainers.

BruceYee

ultimateduck said:

Iselin said:

So this is a complaint thread about people who complain?

Unintended irony is always the best type.

LOL, no. I'm genuinely curious. If a new game is coming out that looks bad, I don't waste my time arguing with the people that think it looks good. I suppose I'm looking for what motivates a person to waste their day posting about a game they dislike or have no intention of playing.

While this post wasn't pointing at anyone directly, some people do pop into my head when I think about it.

Wizardry is a good example, even here answering the question. Most of us have been playing MMOs for 10 to 20 years. Most of us have played many MMOs. We've all watched videos, read developer notes and updates, seen interviews, played betas, etc. on many, many MMOs. Wizardry thinks he knows enough to argue with everyone about nearly every MMO. Maybe he does know more, but why argue with people who like the game or have a different opinion? What motivates a person like that to be like that?

I suppose it's something I just don't understand and, in my old age, am often curious what makes people tick.

So far, it seems tzervo is correct that people just like to bitch about things and have become almost addicted to complaining and arguing.

He technically doesn't "argue" with "anyone" he just rants against games... @Wizardry never responds to "people" just writes his opinion on things then "people" use him to boost their points..

He's an easy target because he NEVER RESPONDS and never refers to other members specifically so he isn't actually arguing with anyone..

If anyone thinks/feels like he's targeting them with his words then they're delusional and should probably think about why a rando's words/opinion on the internet bothers them so much..

Go back and read what he's written for the past decade to see that he's been right about A LOT of things. He may be pissing in the dark but hits that toilet with pin point precision sometimes..

If anything @Wizardy is looking out for every person here by calling out many devs for being the POS they are. @Wizardry has been telling us devs don't care about us for a decade+ and he's absolutely right in most cases but the gamer stockholm syndrome prevents people from seeing that..  I don't agree with some of the things he has to say but just like @DMKano drops granulates of truth and if he got to that point of understanding the back end behavior of game studios simply by being just a gamer/customer then he's more intelligent than the people here who attack him constantly want you to believe..

"People think you're crazy if you talk about things they don't understand" - Elvis

Kyleran

ultimateduck said:

It may just be my perception, but it seems like a majority of the people here are so jaded they actually seem to hate just about every MMO, from those in development to the newly released. Some will say it's because the MMOs getting released are garbage and not worthy of praise, but I think it goes beyond that.

Many times people will aggressively argue a point that is impossible for them to know just to have a reason to complain... the intent of a developer, how cash shops will work, financial data, everything a game designer touches is destined to fail, etc. If someone likes the game that is being bashed by the group of heavy posters that commonly try to destroy every MMO, they are often berated for "burying their head in the sand" or "remaining willfully ignorant to what is right in front of their face" (paraphrasing).

Has the negativity of these forums just festered into a "who can complain the most on seemingly made up information to seem like they are in the know"?... do these people genuinely dislike all MMOs and have become almost addicted to coming here to argue?... or are MMOs simply on a downward spiral that is destined to fail as developers try to desperately grasp on to the remaining WoW players looking for something new?

Yet another who really doesn't understand how forum PVP is meant to be played.

What might surprise you is most here are playing some sort of games, just maybe not MMOs at the moment for "reasons."

Do the posters here really "hate all MMOs" as you propose, or do they just enjoy arguing whether water is really "wet" or not?

Some other classic debates.

IsilithTehroth

Of course, players are going to be jaded when we were shown in most cases better versions of the genre years ago(mind you it did advance in some areas too, like action/fps combat and graphics) and we get new features or content touted as revolutionary or lack of content as thinking differently. The genre never advanced as it should have and in most cases digressed into shallow versions for the sake of a broader audiences' money. Speaking of money; that seems to be the only intention devs have these days. Long gone is the time when making the best experience and pushing boundaries seemed to elevate developers and instead became "how can we milk these players for everything they got". Games now are plagued with Early access along with Kickstarter often means you pay to play it and the game doesn't improve much until it launches and it was just a way to fuel a transaction of imagination, dreams and what if-isms for our money.

It generally comes down to the decadence of the genre and like planned obsolescence, it just increasingly becomes the norm; so people either don't notice it, weren't around to see it happening or point it out but just called jaded.

Iselin

tzervo said:

Iselin said:

As to why people post negative comments on games they are not playing. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it's a game they were quietly following and hoping for good things but were disappointed with the end result so they express their disappointment in a post?

This is sometimes the case but I believe it is usually the exception. You can see patterns in negative posts like:

- posters going in almost every game and shit posting about it
- that one dude/dudette in every PVP game thread complaining about it being PVP or proclaiming it DOA (even though the game was known to be PVP since announcement/inception).

Yup. But if you spend any amount of time here you know who they are and they are easy to ignore. They want attention so ignoring them is what they deserve.

Kyleran

Gdemami said:

ultimateduck said:

So far, it seems tzervo is correct that people just like to bitch about things and have become almost addicted to complaining and arguing.

...that's not what he said.

What he talks about is self-entitlement.

My take on self-entitlement is that it comes either as "genuine" character trait and/or is a result of one's stupidity - one is uncapable to account for or realize there is more than there is to their limited knowledge, experience and intelect ("they are in the know tho!").

That is how you end up with:

"If I do not like games being made, that means they are shit".
"If devs are not making a game how I think games should be made, that means they are clueless."
"If devs are not running their business how I think business should be run, that means they are scammers and thieves."

etc. etc.

That is how it always has been and that's all fine - not all people can be bright, educated, have broader worldview or just elementary self-reflection.

You can usually find them among the poor and working class, the ones that always complain how rich don't pay high enough taxes or how "immoral" money they make and similar dumb crap. Add to that the open platform such as internet and you have it at your face at every turn, if you are not careful

It's just natural, no mystery there.

More words in this one post than you normally do across 3 or 4 months, what's the occasion?

LOL button broken today?

Cheers, keep coming back.

Iselin

Kyleran said:

Gdemami said:

ultimateduck said:

So far, it seems tzervo is correct that people just like to bitch about things and have become almost addicted to complaining and arguing.

...that's not what he said.

What he talks about is self-entitlement.

My take on self-entitlement is that it comes either as "genuine" character trait and/or is a result of one's stupidity - one is uncapable to account for or realize there is more than there is to their limited knowledge, experience and intelect ("they are in the know tho!").

That is how you end up with:

"If I do not like games being made, that means they are shit".
"If devs are not making a game how I think games should be made, that means they are clueless."
"If devs are not running their business how I think business should be run, that means they are scammers and thieves."

etc. etc.

That is how it always has been and that's all fine - not all people can be bright, educated, have broader worldview or just elementary self-reflection.

You can usually find them among the poor and working class, the ones that always complain how rich don't pay high enough taxes or how "immoral" money they make and similar dumb crap. Add to that the open platform such as internet and you have it at your face at every turn, if you are not careful

It's just natural, no mystery there.

More words in this one post than you normally do across 3 or 4 months, what's the occasion?

LOL button broken today?

Cheers, keep coming back.

IDK... I think I like it better when he just does his job and LOLs.

Nilden

As if there isn't an absolute plethora of reasons to be jaded by this genre and the companies making games in it.

From monetization, to design, to performance, to lies and scams. The list of bullshit this industry has pulled or tried to pull is long and growing. 

A lot of the criticisms and complaints are justified. In fact the reason we have all these jaded players is because of the bullshit this industry is pulling.  If you want to point the finger at jaded players you should probably acknowledge the industry practices that created them.

Gdemami

tzervo said:

Both. One is the result, the other is one of the root causes. But yeah, the above examples demonstrate it very nicely.

What I find more intriguing is the opposite case - people otherwise reasonable throwing out of the window any sort of reason as soon as something conflicts with their views or beliefs.

In this regard, some "hot" topics like blockchain or lootboxes are just mindblowing.

Scot

Gdemami said:

tzervo said:

Both. One is the result, the other is one of the root causes. But yeah, the above examples demonstrate it very nicely.

What I find more intriguing is the opposite case - people otherwise reasonable throwing out of the window any sort of reason as soon as something conflicts with their views or beliefs.

In this regard, some "hot" topics like blockchain or lootboxes are just mindblowing.

What I find more intriguing is people who rather than state what their opinion is just do a lol and move on. If you think you have something to say, say it.

It is hardly throwing reason out of the window to question gambling in gaming and speculation on cryptocurrency. But I am always pleased to hear your opinion as you so rarely bother to engage.

Scot

It is funny that this topic so often comes around for MMORPG players, as if gamers generally are immune to becoming jaded. This effects all gamers whatever genre you love, indeed it effects any form of entertainment. I don't think it is hate, it is so easy to pick up that word and use it inappropriately; but some what cynical, yes it makes you that.