I actually think the mmorpg genre is doing very well

AAAMEOW

I found a site which estimate mmorpg population.

https://mmo-population.com/list

Obviously the number is most likely inaccurate.  But even if you look at steam charts.  Games like ESO, BDO, FF14 all have average player at around 20,000.  And since 20,000 concurrent players usually means 10 times actual players that means they could have 200,000 players just on steam.  So it does seem all those games have a decent amount of population.

I understand there are complaint about lack of new games.  Or lack of diversity of different type of mmorpg.  But it does seemed that many mmorpg have decent population, that is especially impressive because many of these mmorpg are over 10 year old.  

Akulas

It's doing the same as it was it's just many more come and go so it gives the illusion that it's doing good / bad leaving behind the exact same type of games that used to be played still being played. Lets be honest there always has only been 5 MMORPGs that's worth playing but have only a population of 50-100 playerbase.

Kyleran

Well I'm currently someone who is playing ESO and it's decent enough, but definitely room for some improvement in terms of what I'd prefer to be playing.

Guess I'm just another "settler" like everyone else.

Theocritus

Kyleran said:

Well I'm currently someone who is playing ESO and it's decent enough, but definitely room for some improvement in terms of what I'd prefer to be playing.

Guess I'm just another "settler" like everyone else.

Seems odd to go from Eve to FO76 to ESO...You mellowing out in your old age?

mgilbrtsn

I agree with you.  There is a lot of choice...from AAA to niche.  People have a bubble around themselves and think that what they like or don't like is fact when it's only opinion or unyielding dogmatic beliefs.  It's the same in politics. 

Tokken

The new MMORPG's have a shorter lifespan compared to the original / old ones.

KnightFalz

Mr409Wins said:

Really? I haven't seen anything I'd call an MMO in 15 years.

Fortunately the genre isn't confined to the limits of your vision.

Sovrath

Theocritus said:

Kyleran said:

Well I'm currently someone who is playing ESO and it's decent enough, but definitely room for some improvement in terms of what I'd prefer to be playing.

Guess I'm just another "settler" like everyone else.

Seems odd to go from Eve to FO76 to ESO...You mellowing out in your old age?

I can't speak for Kyleran BUT I think as we get older we are more apt to accept thing for what they are over insisting that thing be what we think they should be.

KnightFalz

Kyleran said:

Well I'm currently someone who is playing ESO and it's decent enough, but definitely room for some improvement in terms of what I'd prefer to be playing.

Decent enough is likely as good as a game intended for mass appeal will get. It requires catering to a wide range of interests, preferences, and tastes with some of those conflicting and therefore unable to coexist.

The chance of all that coming together in a manner precisely matching what any particular player wants I expect to be incredibly low. Close enough is the only realistic expectation to have. Anything beyond in a person's view is an exception.

iixviiiix

Tokken said:

The new MMORPG's have a shorter lifespan compared to the original / old ones.

They was made to be shorter lifespan

Kyleran

Theocritus said:

Kyleran said:

Well I'm currently someone who is playing ESO and it's decent enough, but definitely room for some improvement in terms of what I'd prefer to be playing.

Guess I'm just another "settler" like everyone else.

Seems odd to go from Eve to FO76 to ESO...You mellowing out in your old age?

Running out of online games to play.

Po_gg

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:

Seems odd to go from Eve to FO76 to ESO...You mellowing out in your old age?

Running out of online games to play.

LotRO could be the next step of mellowing out  

While not EVE (much more friendly), I believe you'd like the pvp scene.

AlBQuirky

AAAMEOW said:

I found a site which estimate mmorpg population.

https://mmo-population.com/list

Obviously the number is most likely inaccurate.  But even if you look at steam charts.  Games like ESO, BDO, FF14 all have average player at around 20,000.  And since 20,000 concurrent players usually means 10 times actual players that means they could have 200,000 players just on steam.  So it does seem all those games have a decent amount of population.

I understand there are complaint about lack of new games.  Or lack of diversity of different type of mmorpg.  But it does seemed that many mmorpg have decent population, that is especially impressive because many of these mmorpg are over 10 year old.  

By many number metrics, the genre IS doing quite well. Unfortunately, I play games for fun, not for numbers.

Are you having fun in the games? If so, awesome. There are a lot of players who may not feel the same.

Play on!

Scot

Well Aaaameow thinks the MMO genre is doing well, but says:

 "I understand there are complaint about lack of new games.  Or lack of diversity of different type of mmorpg."

Well that's why the genre is not doing well, plus the huge changes in what being a MMO now means. But if you are going to take population or income as your guide then MMOs are doing fine.

AlBQuirky

Sovrath said:

Theocritus said:

Kyleran said:

Well I'm currently someone who is playing ESO and it's decent enough, but definitely room for some improvement in terms of what I'd prefer to be playing.

Guess I'm just another "settler" like everyone else.

Seems odd to go from Eve to FO76 to ESO...You mellowing out in your old age?

I can't speak for Kyleran BUT I think as we get older we are more apt to accept thing for what they are over insisting that thing be what we think they should be.

I guess I'm young "at heart?"

Also with age comes other aspects of life like heart disease, achy joints, and my favorite dementia

Also with age comes the knowledge of what one likes and doesn't like. "Been there, Done that" is an old person's mantra. I don't owe anyone anything, especially game makers. There are so many other hobbies I enjoy that gaming needs to "win my patronage." Of course they don't care one whit about some old white straight guy and his measly $15 a month, or cash shop purchases

Xatsh

There are games that call themselves mmos that are doing extremely well. The genre is not really dead. But if you look at the elements that made a mmo traditionally a mmo that is very much dead right now.

Games like FFXIV are thriving right now, but in my eyes they are not a true mmo. It is more of a co-op online Final Fantasy with Episodes not much different the FFXIII-1,2,3 and DLCS. Just this is expansion 1,2,3 and Major Patches. FFXIV is just missing way too many traditional mmo elements for me. It is honestly a 1 a done style game almost. Do the story, run a raid for 2 out of the 7-8 month patch cycle boom 100% game completion at least character progression wise. Sure there is tons of fluff... but when your game is 90% fluff... yea not my cup of tea.

MMOs have lost the Group gameplay focus, Guild over general community focused, never ending world with nearly endless content, vibrant economies, build your own destiny type gameplay (More horizontal), a large living world not just designed for leveling, complex systems (Whole spreadsheet warrior thing).

Mmos are now are centered around solo content, instant que group gameplay, trophy for everyone, community and low man static over guild focus, on rails game play, minimal economic structure. Extreme simplicity on everything.

You can even look at what alot of major development studios are doing now. Focus on the MOBILE market with auto play, almost pure solo gameplay, cashshop/loot box driven games, 1/10th the content of a real mmo.

Is the mmo dead, well not really, but it is not really the same genre anymore. Only thing that remains is a massive amount of people in 1 realm together. MMO in name only literally.

The only people making/trying to make actual traditional mmos are a few of the indys. Which most will fail... because of the sheer cost, skill, and manpower needed to make a AAA mmo... and lets be honest who the hell wants to waste time on a AA mmo.

There is just not enough profits in the old model anymore for big companies to take it up. And this sorta sucks... because I really despise the direction the genre is going with the mainstream model.

Viper482

Mr409Wins said:

Really? I haven't seen anything I'd call an MMO in 15 years.

Tons of MMOs dude.....you're thinking of MMORPGs  

Cuddleheart

Kinda hard for me to see things as going "very well".  MMORPGs exists and there are (great)games to play, but to say the entire genre hasn't objectively been on the decline is something I can't agree with.

The last AAA MMORPG from the West was ESO in 2014, I think.  New World will be out this year, but nobody would accuse the FPS genre of knocking it out of the park if shooter releases were all 6 years apart.  FF14 is starting to garner pop culture attention now, but the last MMO I can recall getting any mainstream buzz before that was maybe SWToR at release.

MMOs have been gaining steam and are making goes of it, but people were still making point and click adventure games in the early 2000s, too.  I certainly wouldn't say that genre was doing "very well".  The only real metric that seems to be consistently on the rise with MMOs is cash shop revenue.  Squeezing blood from a stone is never a solid plan for reversing your company's fortunes in the long-term.  Ask Gamestop and Blockbuster Video.

Brainy

AAAMEOW said:

I found a site which estimate mmorpg population.

https://mmo-population.com/list

Obviously the number is most likely inaccurate.  But even if you look at steam charts.  Games like ESO, BDO, FF14 all have average player at around 20,000.  And since 20,000 concurrent players usually means 10 times actual players that means they could have 200,000 players just on steam.  So it does seem all those games have a decent amount of population.

I understand there are complaint about lack of new games.  Or lack of diversity of different type of mmorpg.  But it does seemed that many mmorpg have decent population, that is especially impressive because many of these mmorpg are over 10 year old.  

WoW has 3mil playing now and reports 100mil that have played the game.  That means 97% of the people that have played the game are currently not playing.

This is like saying home phones are still popular because a number of people are still using them, because at least they are not like pay phones "YET".

MMO's are not expanding market share, compared to the number of people online.

All these countries are all getting access to the internet, yet MMO's cant even get a measly 5+ mil players?  Think of how many people have access to the internet compared to 20 years ago, proportionally MMO"s are losing market share.

MMO's are getting a smaller percentage of the total potential customers, but have access to a growing overall player base.  Vast majority is dissatisfied but they don't care, because 3% of a billion is better than 30% of a 10 million.

If MMO"s had similar market share as they did in 1998-2004 they would have hundreds of millions playing concurrently.

Brainy

tzervo said:

Cuddleheart said:

...but the last MMO I can recall getting any mainstream buzz before that was maybe SWToR at release.

Also BDO in 2016.

People may be somewhat right to point out a decline compared to the WoW boom period, but they forget that MMOs also gave birth to many subgenres. Someone who just wants small group runs no longer needs to play an MMO, they can play Destiny 2 or MHW. Someone who just wants to play arena/structured PVP no longer needs to play MMOs, they can play a MOBA. Etc.

So people say decline, I see maturing and diversification. In terms of profits, WoW is still on the top 10 games worldwide on PC, even after that decline.

Just curious where you see PC only for 2021?  I can only find PC included with Consoles, which show WoW 20 or below. Which is sad Zero MMO's are in top 15.

What is very curious is Valheim is blowing away WoW.

Dattelis

I will agree with the OP that the mmorpg scene is doing pretty well by the numbers. One thing that can be hard to do is accept that interests change over time regardless of reason. The problem with talking about how popular a game WoW was back in the WotLK era or whenever it had the 12 million or more number has too many variables that influence it compared to now (like analyzing competition, player interest/obligations/financials and so on). Games might not feel as big individually simply because there's more of them, but I believe the popularity is definitely higher than it has been in the past (especially if you include mobile).

At the end of the day, a mmorpg honestly doesn't need millions of millions of players to be considered a 'success' nor does it need to fit everyone under the same tent. A population is important but thousands is honestly fine, I just think companies (mostly executives) tend to get obsessed with 'potential' and want to branch as far as they can, for better or worse.

Cuddleheart

tzervo said:

Cuddleheart said:

...but the last MMO I can recall getting any mainstream buzz before that was maybe SWToR at release.

Also BDO in 2016.

What happened with BDO in 2016?  Admittedly, I didn't follow it very close, but I don't remember any major breakthrough into the mainstream consciousness.

WoW's impact on culture outside of gaming is well remembered, obviously.  I mentioned SWToR because I remember a sitcom(Big Band Theory maybe?) doing an episode where they were arguing over which side to play or something for the whole episode.  MMORPG releases were in mainstream network news and tech press.  I'm talking that kind of mainstream buzz.

Kyleran

Po_gg said:

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:

Seems odd to go from Eve to FO76 to ESO...You mellowing out in your old age?

Running out of online games to play.

LotRO could be the next step of mellowing out  

While not EVE (much more friendly), I believe you'd like the pvp scene.

Well you know, I played LotRO at launch and didn't care much for it, but same was true for ESO yet I'm now at four plus months.

What changed was the game mitigated many of my initial complaints so was more enjoyable on my return.

Same was true with FO76, I didn't play long after launch as it's survival mechanics were not to my liking.

Upon my return a year or so later a veteran player took pity on two noobs couldn't figure out how to add a door to their first camp (he saw us jumping in and out through a window) who showed us the ropes on how to build water purifiers and keep ourselves always well fed with minimal effort.

Same just happened in ESO, a few weeks back my friends and I were wandering around in Craglorn, a veteran level area added a few years back and we had no clue what was happening or how to safely hunt there.

We spotted someone who was solo farming the place by running on feet faster than our jacked up mounts could run and was turning invisible to slip by stuff.

We went into full follow / stalker mode fighting behind everywhere he did and eventually he paused asking what was up?

We introduced ourselves and long story short our new friend has taken us under his wing helping out with all sorts of great advice along with taking us into veteran content, arenas and the like.

"MMOs are much more fun when knowledgeable friends give you a hand." 
- Me.

Nilden

That list is an unmitigated joke. Between having dead MMOs, unreleased MMOs, and games that are not even MMOs, but I lost it laughing and had to stop at Chronicles of Elyria at number 73.

Kyleran

Nilden said:

That list is an unmitigated joke. Between having dead MMOs, unreleased MMOs, and games that are not even MMOs, but I lost it laughing and had to stop at Chronicles of Elyria at number 73.

Great find, definitely have to question the credibility of any list which includes COE on it.

Ungood

There are a lot of good games out there, some can be what you are looking for, some might not be. But, I enjoy games, I enjoy playing them. I thought GW2 Core was a great game, I enjoyed Trove as well. I mean, if that is "Settling" then I am having a fuck ton of fun settling and seem to be far happier with my life then those that are bitterly waiting that perfect game.