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I actually think the mmorpg genre is doing very well

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  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,832
    That list just left me depressed about the genre. 

    Granted I don't know half the games, but of the half I did know, at least 50% of them were not MMOs. As in, they were not massively multiplayer.


    Of those games I did recognise as actually being massively multiplayer, not many had good numbers. The numbers may be good enough to keep the lights on and a trickle of content being released, but not good enough for the sort of development needed to keep a themepark engaging long term.




    Weirdly, whilst I still think the MMO genre is in trouble right now, I remain optimistic for the future. There is simply too much unexplored potential to not be optimisitic! Someone, someday, will tap that potential in a variety of engaging and unexpected ways and then we'll be off to a new golden age.




    Personally, the main metric I use to judge the health of the MMO market is the number of big western studios currently developing a new MMO.


    The reason I use this metric is that big studios do a ton of research before investing in a big game (as in, financial research). If there are lots of big western studios building mmos, it means a lot of very clever analysts and business people have confidence in the future and size of the mmo market and have decided it's worth fighting for a slice of that pie.


    If studios aren't investing in new MMOs, it means all those businesses have looked at the market as it stands today and judged it lacking.



    That is where we find ourselves today. Existing MMO studios, as well as studios outside the mmo scene, have all decided that the genre is not worth their time or effort. These are studios that have access to way more data than we do, who have insider information, as well as paid analysts to process all that data. And they judged it not worth it.
    BrainyPo_ggAlBQuirkyGodeauGdemami
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851
    edited July 2021
    The SS MMO



    All we need is some Dilithium Crystals, Captain! 
    BrainyKyleranTheocritusAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Some people think McDonalds have the best hamburgers in the world.  I guess that's good for them because there is one on every corner.

    I knew someone in school that would go out with the most slovenly, unkempt, dog faced girlfriends you could imagine.  No bar was too low.   But hey good for them, as long as they are happy.

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.
    AlBQuirkyGodeauGdemami
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited July 2021
    When i see ONE developer put in the basic core effort a WORLD game should have,i'll make note of it for certain.
    As of now and for the past 15 years even with the tech to do better studios just want to give us fake looking lazy design worlds.

    Name ONE<<<<pretty simple right,name one MMO with an ECO system?

    Name MMO's with building housing.i mean we do have living characters right,or are  all our characters robots?
    VERY generic worlds,core design features missing,yep very lazy game designs.

    Here is another laughable one,how do you have GUILDS with no guildhalls?It is like a church group with no church lol or a hockey team with no arena  or a football team with no field.Geesus even a simple Euchre club or chess club will have a meeting place.
    KyleranBrainyAlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Brainy said:
    Some people think McDonalds have the best hamburgers in the world.  I guess that's good for them because there is one on every corner.

    I knew someone in school that would go out with the most slovenly, unkempt, dog faced girlfriends you could imagine.  No bar was too low.   But hey good for them, as long as they are happy.

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.

    So someone likes something you don't means that they have no standards?

    Some guy goes out with women you don't find attractive so they are the one's with no standards?

    Good one.
    Kyleran[Deleted User]AlBQuirkyGdemami
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:
    Some people think McDonalds have the best hamburgers in the world.  I guess that's good for them because there is one on every corner.

    I knew someone in school that would go out with the most slovenly, unkempt, dog faced girlfriends you could imagine.  No bar was too low.   But hey good for them, as long as they are happy.

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.

    So someone likes something you don't means that they have no standards?

    Some guy goes out with women you don't find attractive so they are the one's with no standards?

    Good one.

    No some people can be picky and not like what others like.  But what about those that like everything?

    Are you saying everyone has high standards?  Not sure what your point is here? Are you saying you don't know anyone that has low or no standards?

    Don't sit on your high horse trying to be holier than thou.
    AlBQuirkyGdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    You should try it, the view is marvelous from up here.


    BrainyPo_ggAlBQuirky

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Kyleran said:
    You should try it, the view is marvelous from up here.



    I would but I am so high up on my pedestal, I cant get down.



    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,976
    We gotta play something right?
    AlBQuirky
  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 766
    Wizardry said:
    When i see ONE developer put in the basic core effort a WORLD game should have,i'll make note of it for certain.
    As of now and for the past 15 years even with the tech to do better studios just want to give us fake looking lazy design worlds.

    Name ONE<<<<pretty simple right,name one MMO with an ECO system?

    Name MMO's with building housing.i mean we do have living characters right,or are  all our characters robots?
    VERY generic worlds,core design features missing,yep very lazy game designs.

    Here is another laughable one,how do you have GUILDS with no guildhalls?It is like a church group with no church lol or a hockey team with no arena  or a football team with no field.Geesus even a simple Euchre club or chess club will have a meeting place.
    cant believe Im responding to a Wizardry post, but. . .


    but ARK: Survival Evolved has everything you asked people to name one of. . .



    . . .took like 5 seconds of thought.















    AlBQuirky
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    edited July 2021
    sayuu said:
    Wizardry said:
    When i see ONE developer put in the basic core effort a WORLD game should have,i'll make note of it for certain.
    As of now and for the past 15 years even with the tech to do better studios just want to give us fake looking lazy design worlds.

    Name ONE<<<<pretty simple right,name one MMO with an ECO system?

    Name MMO's with building housing.i mean we do have living characters right,or are  all our characters robots?
    VERY generic worlds,core design features missing,yep very lazy game designs.

    Here is another laughable one,how do you have GUILDS with no guildhalls?It is like a church group with no church lol or a hockey team with no arena  or a football team with no field.Geesus even a simple Euchre club or chess club will have a meeting place.
    cant believe Im responding to a Wizardry post, but. . .

    but ARK: Survival Evolved has everything you asked people to name one of. . .
    . . .took like 5 seconds of thought.

    I guess 70 or less players on a server qualifies as an MMO nowadays?  70 is Massive?

    cameltosisAlBQuirkyGodeauGdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:
    Some people think McDonalds have the best hamburgers in the world.  I guess that's good for them because there is one on every corner.

    I knew someone in school that would go out with the most slovenly, unkempt, dog faced girlfriends you could imagine.  No bar was too low.   But hey good for them, as long as they are happy.

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.

    So someone likes something you don't means that they have no standards?

    Some guy goes out with women you don't find attractive so they are the one's with no standards?

    Good one.

    No some people can be picky and not like what others like.  But what about those that like everything?

    Are you saying everyone has high standards?  Not sure what your point is here? Are you saying you don't know anyone that has low or no standards?

    Don't sit on your high horse trying to be holier than thou.

    Point is that you are essentially defining what "high standards are" and anyone who doesn't align with you doesn't have high standards.

    Not really hard.

    To the point, and I've used this example before, I have wonderful friends who will say that if you play video games you are wasting your time and could be doing ANYTHING better and more worthwhile.

    So would we assume that obviously, they have higher standards than us?

    They're not "wrong." I could be practicing my classical guitar more, starting a business, getting another degree, taking a martial art, something that really adds more value to my life when looked at through a certain lens.

    Is loving McDonald's Hamburgers a sign of not having high standards or a sign of someone who doesn't align with your standards?

    There are definitely worse hamburgers out there. My mother's come to mind.

    And those girls your friend would date? Not enough info really but were they really horrible looking or did he look at them and see really sexy people because that's how he was put together?

    I can tell you that there are women who are considered hot as hot can be and I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.

    I could say that I just don't find them attractive but is it that my standards are low?

    I'm saying that we each see things through a very specific lens and a lens that is a lot more complex than "good/bad."

    I'll end this post with this ...

    When I was a freshman my friends and I went to the student hall to play gauntlet and get ice cream sandwiches. I was passing a guy I had seen before and he was surrounded by 5 women who were enthralled with everything he was saying. And what gem did I catch?

    "These eyes never read anything less than Shakespeare."

    barf

    Not because I don't love Shakespeare. I've directed A Winter's Tale (not a great one) acted as Puck in Midsummer Night's dream and own the friggin first folio.

    It's because Shakespeare wrote his plays to appeal to all walks of life. The groundlings and aristocrats and he used "potty humor" for the less educated and higher level themes/plots for the educated.

    But we often get people who want to "get on a high horse" because they think they are better than others and tell people that what they like is so much better. They have hihg standards.

    I don't buy it. For a dollar.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyKnightFalz
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:
    Some people think McDonalds have the best hamburgers in the world.  I guess that's good for them because there is one on every corner.

    I knew someone in school that would go out with the most slovenly, unkempt, dog faced girlfriends you could imagine.  No bar was too low.   But hey good for them, as long as they are happy.

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.

    So someone likes something you don't means that they have no standards?

    Some guy goes out with women you don't find attractive so they are the one's with no standards?

    Good one.

    No some people can be picky and not like what others like.  But what about those that like everything?

    Are you saying everyone has high standards?  Not sure what your point is here? Are you saying you don't know anyone that has low or no standards?

    Don't sit on your high horse trying to be holier than thou.
    Funny thought.. Like for example, I have yet to meet a burger joint I didn't like. 

    [Deleted User]SovrathAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    edited July 2021
    tzervo said:
    Sovrath said:
    When I was a freshman my friends and I went to the student hall to play gauntlet and get ice cream sandwiches. I was passing a guy I had seen before and he was surrounded by 5 women who were enthralled with everything he was saying. And what gem did I catch?

    "These eyes never read anything less than Shakespeare."

    barf
    I should take lessons from this guy.

    ok fine, we'll both take lessons. o:)
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirky
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:
    Some people think McDonalds have the best hamburgers in the world.  I guess that's good for them because there is one on every corner.

    I knew someone in school that would go out with the most slovenly, unkempt, dog faced girlfriends you could imagine.  No bar was too low.   But hey good for them, as long as they are happy.

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.

    So someone likes something you don't means that they have no standards?

    Some guy goes out with women you don't find attractive so they are the one's with no standards?

    Good one.

    No some people can be picky and not like what others like.  But what about those that like everything?

    Are you saying everyone has high standards?  Not sure what your point is here? Are you saying you don't know anyone that has low or no standards?

    Don't sit on your high horse trying to be holier than thou.

    Point is that you are essentially defining what "high standards are" and anyone who doesn't align with you doesn't have high standards.

    Not really hard.

    To the point, and I've used this example before, I have wonderful friends who will say that if you play video games you are wasting your time and could be doing ANYTHING better and more worthwhile.

    So would we assume that obviously, they have higher standards than us?

    They're not "wrong." I could be practicing my classical guitar more, starting a business, getting another degree, taking a martial art, something that really adds more value to my life when looked at through a certain lens.

    Is loving McDonald's Hamburgers a sign of not having high standards or a sign of someone who doesn't align with your standards?

    There are definitely worse hamburgers out there. My mother's come to mind.

    And those girls your friend would date? Not enough info really but were they really horrible looking or did he look at them and see really sexy people because that's how he was put together?

    I can tell you that there are women who are considered hot as hot can be and I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.

    I could say that I just don't find them attractive but is it that my standards are low?

    I'm saying that we each see things through a very specific lens and a lens that is a lot more complex than "good/bad."

    I'll end this post with this ...

    When I was a freshman my friends and I went to the student hall to play gauntlet and get ice cream sandwiches. I was passing a guy I had seen before and he was surrounded by 5 women who were enthralled with everything he was saying. And what gem did I catch?

    "These eyes never read anything less than Shakespeare."

    barf

    Not because I don't love Shakespeare. I've directed A Winter's Tale (not a great one) acted as Puck in Midsummer Night's dream and own the friggin first folio.

    It's because Shakespeare wrote his plays to appeal to all walks of life. The groundlings and aristocrats and he used "potty humor" for the less educated and higher level themes/plots for the educated.

    But we often get people who want to "get on a high horse" because they think they are better than others and tell people that what they like is so much better. They have hihg standards.

    I don't buy it. For a dollar.
    Blah blah blah, then there are those with no standards.

    Just so I know, are you trying to sit here and tell me everyone has the same standards on everything?  Because if you agree people have different standards, then that is exactly what I said. 

    You can blather on how people have different tastes, which can be true.  But that doesn't mean there are many people that just don't even care. This can be in any area, whether its burgers, women/men, MMO's, clothes, art, cars, you name it.  Sometimes people just don't care about certain things, their standards are low/zero.

    Some of these people have the honesty to even admit it.

    I know there are areas, that I don't care about.  But I don't try to lecture people about what is good or bad if I know I don't even care.

    So please spare me your lectures.


    Gdemami
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    Just for a short intermission to the heated high/low standards debate, I'd drop a thumbsup
    Kyleran said:
    "MMOs are much more fun when knowledgeable friends give you a hand." 
    - Me.
    Great line.

    And I'm sure LotRO is also filled with helpful and/or knowledgeable players around, just check in for the concert today... B) 
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirky
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Sometimes we need fantasy to survive reality 
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    Beyond the shadows there's always light
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,504
    I think the main "mmorpgs are dead" argument come from vets of the genre who don't like the way the games have evolved...

    it's not a reflection of the state of gaming in the mmo genre, it's a reflection of them as people missing the way mmo's used to be and not liking the new form they have taken.

    As someone who is also a vet, but has evovled with the genre, i can generally find a good experience in any new mmorpg as long as i'm playing with friends, because at the end of the day thats why i started playing mmo's back in text based muds.. because i enjoyed sharing an experience with my friends.

    All games, be it old school mmorpgs, new mmorpgs, online shooters, text based muds, action, adventure etc... are fun until they aren't so i make the most of the games i play with my friends until we no longer play them and move onto the next thing.

    Now there are a few titles we have been playing for years and still continue to play, games that as long as the servers are running we will probably continue to play and have new experiences with.

    But i think the whole mmorps are dead because i don't like how they are now is just bitter and change fearing. Sure the older ones can be challenging to play solo, but why should anyone be forced to play a game (even an mmorpg) with other people. Just because you feel thats how it should be doesn't mean an experience should be taken away from someone who doesn't want too but still wants to experience the world and nearly all these games have content you are forced to group todo if you want to do it, but letting players have a little bit of choice in how they recieve their content isnt a terrible thing.

    at the end of the day i don't see the genre going anywhere as a whole, new studios will keep forming and trying to push the boundaries to deliver experiences that cater to either niche or huge market subsets because there is money in it.... even some of the subjectivley worst mmorpgs to launch like bless for example end up making a heap of money before they shut down the servers... and like the original Bless wasn't anything fantastic, but my friends and i had an amazing time while we were playing it. 
    AlBQuirkyUngood
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    tzervo said:
    Has LoL for example made any "mainstream" breakthrough?

    Isn't there a "LOL" emoji now? :lol:
    [Deleted User]Ungood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited July 2021
    Kyleran said:
    You should try it, the view is marvelous from up here.



    Can I sit on my "high horse" if it doubles as a "dead horse?"?
    (I wanna see that meme!)
    Ungood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Brainy said:
    sayuu said:
    Wizardry said:
    When i see ONE developer put in the basic core effort a WORLD game should have,i'll make note of it for certain.
    As of now and for the past 15 years even with the tech to do better studios just want to give us fake looking lazy design worlds.

    Name ONE<<<<pretty simple right,name one MMO with an ECO system?

    Name MMO's with building housing.i mean we do have living characters right,or are  all our characters robots?
    VERY generic worlds,core design features missing,yep very lazy game designs.

    Here is another laughable one,how do you have GUILDS with no guildhalls?It is like a church group with no church lol or a hockey team with no arena  or a football team with no field.Geesus even a simple Euchre club or chess club will have a meeting place.
    cant believe Im responding to a Wizardry post, but. . .

    but ARK: Survival Evolved has everything you asked people to name one of. . .
    . . .took like 5 seconds of thought.

    I guess 70 or less players on a server qualifies as an MMO nowadays?  70 is Massive?


    Maybe for a player who has only played "couch console" games for "up to 4 players?" Massive is a descriptor, not a set number.
    BrainyUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 927
    edited July 2021
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Sometimes we need fantasy to survive reality 
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    Beyond the shadows there's always light
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Brainy said:


    You can blather on how people have different tastes, which can be true.  But that doesn't mean there are many people that just don't even care. This can be in any area, whether its burgers, women/men, MMO's, clothes, art, cars, you name it.  Sometimes people just don't care about certain things, their standards are low/zero.

    Some of these people have the honesty to even admit it.

    I know there are areas, that I don't care about.  But I don't try to lecture people about what is good or bad if I know I don't even care.

    So please spare me your lectures.


    You gave two examples and then followed with this gem:

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.

    That pretty much says that people who don't like a certain thing have no standards over having different tastes.

    If you don't see that then "whatever."

    Also, if people like what's going on in gaming then it's a great time to be alive.

    So you are just going to have to accept that while some people might say they don't care others say they do care and they like what's going on in gaming.

    Maybe they say they have high standards and they still like today's games.

    In which case it's a great time to be alive for games.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:


    You can blather on how people have different tastes, which can be true.  But that doesn't mean there are many people that just don't even care. This can be in any area, whether its burgers, women/men, MMO's, clothes, art, cars, you name it.  Sometimes people just don't care about certain things, their standards are low/zero.

    Some of these people have the honesty to even admit it.

    I know there are areas, that I don't care about.  But I don't try to lecture people about what is good or bad if I know I don't even care.

    So please spare me your lectures.


    You gave two examples and then followed with this gem:

    If you have no standards, I guess you can say its a great time to be alive because MMO's are certainly living up to the no standards mark.  They are certainly racing to the bottom.

    That pretty much says that people who don't like a certain thing have no standards over having different tastes.

    If you don't see that then "whatever."

    Also, if people like what's going on in gaming then it's a great time to be alive.

    So you are just going to have to accept that while some people might say they don't care others say they do care and they like what's going on in gaming.

    Maybe they say they have high standards and they still like today's games.

    In which case it's a great time to be alive for games.
    So you think all these mobile rollouts are making games better?  You don't think industries are lowering their standards to capture phone users?

    50% of the world population has phones, most of which cant afford a PC.  Its pretty obvious why these companies are moving to mobile.

    But are you really sitting here saying that this makes the genre better for someone who can afford a PC?
    KyleranAlBQuirkyGdemami
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Brainy said:
    sayuu said:
    Wizardry said:
    When i see ONE developer put in the basic core effort a WORLD game should have,i'll make note of it for certain.
    As of now and for the past 15 years even with the tech to do better studios just want to give us fake looking lazy design worlds.

    Name ONE<<<<pretty simple right,name one MMO with an ECO system?

    Name MMO's with building housing.i mean we do have living characters right,or are  all our characters robots?
    VERY generic worlds,core design features missing,yep very lazy game designs.

    Here is another laughable one,how do you have GUILDS with no guildhalls?It is like a church group with no church lol or a hockey team with no arena  or a football team with no field.Geesus even a simple Euchre club or chess club will have a meeting place.
    cant believe Im responding to a Wizardry post, but. . .

    but ARK: Survival Evolved has everything you asked people to name one of. . .
    . . .took like 5 seconds of thought.

    I guess 70 or less players on a server qualifies as an MMO nowadays?  70 is Massive?


    It can in a way if those 70 people actually have extensive interaction with each other. It would effectively be more massive than 7,000 when the vast majority play solo.
    [Deleted User]KyleranAlBQuirky
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