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[Article] Star Citizen: A $400+ Million Gaming Project With No Release Date In Sight.

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Comments

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,050
    Babuinix said:
    Sharne said:
    There are plenty of software developers who frequent this site and I believe a few game developers too. At the end of the day, software development is software development, regardless of the field of expertise.

    On top of that, we see regularly game development in progress as we are all gamers, many of us opt into early access, some with good outcomes, some with bad outcomes.

    So to say that no one has a clue (obviously apart from you), is pretty disingenuous to say the least.

    The worrying trend, pretty much kicked off by Star Citizen, is that more and more companies, seem to be making so much money up front , with no accountability on how good the end product will be and whether the end product will actually end up being firstly an end product, secondly any good and lastly, released in my lifetime.
    Are they? Haven't seen them in any Star Citizen threads, only the same old tired and jaded randoms with an a axe to grind and little knowledge of actual games and their development lol
    lahnmir said:
    you could also just be honest and enjoy something without ignoring, mocking or underplaying the negative. Just a thought.
    It's been honestly a joy to point out the constant useless misconceptions and unicorns spawned about Star Citizen, crowdfunded games or game development in general by entitled gamers with no clue :p

    You can trace those calls back to 2016-17 when despite worldwide doomsday predictions that Star Citizen was on the brink of collapse, that it would just keep on being developed and generating millions in the process, rinse & repeat despite all the haters and naysayers "predictions".

    Here we are again, with Star Citizen well established as the best space sim in the market, despite still in alpha, and receiving regular updates along the years.

    Despite being announced back in 2012 after a tremendous successful funding campaign and spawning the resurgence of space flight games there's still no game even close to be able to provide the features it's alpha build already provides, steadily securing it's king of the space sim games crown for the years to come.

    That's just how ahead it was back then like it is now and will keep being as new updates are deployed.

    Rinse & Repeat B)
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A. ‘broken promises, unrealistic dates etc.’ by presenting point B. ‘Continued big numbers in players and funding and a good Alpha client.’ In reality they are two separate entities and you can completely support point B without ignoring or downplaying point A.

    That is not what you are, structurally, doing though. When point A shows up in a conversation you start yelling point B as long and as loud as you can until point A is shut up or simply drowned in your constant barrage of point B.

    It is tiring, it is childish, and it is also simply not true. You are not the SC sage enlightening the masses, you are the feet stomping angry child that tries to distract from the fact that he has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar by yelling as loud as he can.

    I don’t get it, you have a lot of love for SC which I, as a player, can definitely understand.So why can’t you accept it for what it is, instead of cherry picking all the good parts? Why don’t you take it seriously instead of making a caricature out of it? Its kind of an abusive relationship to be honest with a lot of truth being left out. Its okay, everyone f*ks up big sometime, the best would be to acknowledge such a thing and move on, not ignore it.

    Ahh well, who am I talking to, time to die on other randomly picked hills.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    [Deleted User]KyleranSandmanjwVrikanursoMendelChampieFrodoFragins
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,442
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    Sandmanjwstrawhat0981FrodoFragins
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    The only thing no one has a clue about, apparently not even CR or the CI dev team is when will either game launch.

    All the rest is pretty well understood by most.


    Sandmanjw

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited August 2021
    lahnmir said:
    Babuinix said:
    Sharne said:
    There are plenty of software developers who frequent this site and I believe a few game developers too. At the end of the day, software development is software development, regardless of the field of expertise.

    On top of that, we see regularly game development in progress as we are all gamers, many of us opt into early access, some with good outcomes, some with bad outcomes.

    So to say that no one has a clue (obviously apart from you), is pretty disingenuous to say the least.

    The worrying trend, pretty much kicked off by Star Citizen, is that more and more companies, seem to be making so much money up front , with no accountability on how good the end product will be and whether the end product will actually end up being firstly an end product, secondly any good and lastly, released in my lifetime.
    Are they? Haven't seen them in any Star Citizen threads, only the same old tired and jaded randoms with an a axe to grind and little knowledge of actual games and their development lol
    lahnmir said:
    you could also just be honest and enjoy something without ignoring, mocking or underplaying the negative. Just a thought.
    It's been honestly a joy to point out the constant useless misconceptions and unicorns spawned about Star Citizen, crowdfunded games or game development in general by entitled gamers with no clue :p

    You can trace those calls back to 2016-17 when despite worldwide doomsday predictions that Star Citizen was on the brink of collapse, that it would just keep on being developed and generating millions in the process, rinse & repeat despite all the haters and naysayers "predictions".

    Here we are again, with Star Citizen well established as the best space sim in the market, despite still in alpha, and receiving regular updates along the years.

    Despite being announced back in 2012 after a tremendous successful funding campaign and spawning the resurgence of space flight games there's still no game even close to be able to provide the features it's alpha build already provides, steadily securing it's king of the space sim games crown for the years to come.

    That's just how ahead it was back then like it is now and will keep being as new updates are deployed.

    Rinse & Repeat B)
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A. ‘broken promises, unrealistic dates etc.’ by presenting point B. ‘Continued big numbers in players and funding and a good Alpha client.’ In reality they are two separate entities and you can completely support point B without ignoring or downplaying point A.

    That is not what you are, structurally, doing though. When point A shows up in a conversation you start yelling point B as long and as loud as you can until point A is shut up or simply drowned in your constant barrage of point B.

    It is tiring, it is childish, and it is also simply not true. You are not the SC sage enlightening the masses, you are the feet stomping angry child that tries to distract from the fact that he has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar by yelling as loud as he can.

    I don’t get it, you have a lot of love for SC which I, as a player, can definitely understand.So why can’t you accept it for what it is, instead of cherry picking all the good parts? Why don’t you take it seriously instead of making a caricature out of it? Its kind of an abusive relationship to be honest with a lot of truth being left out. Its okay, everyone f*ks up big sometime, the best would be to acknowledge such a thing and move on, not ignore it.

    Ahh well, who am I talking to, time to die on other randomly picked hills.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    His behavior is easily explained, he's in a fight he can't win, so he ignores it completely and builds stawmen arguing for or against points no one else is making or has made in many years.

    Lots of people support the game(s)... doesn't change the fact neither have launched nor is there any indication of when they might be.

    No matter what point, graphic or video he posts, all are useless in dispelling the universal truth, the games have not been released, heck, they may never release or even need to as the free money keeps rolling on in.

    Is OK though, the absurdity of his positions aren't supported even by other ardent backers who have largely walked away as they can't in good faith argue against the not released yet argument so don't bother trying to do so.

    Does keep thing entertaining here though, looks like for many more years to come.





    Champie

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited August 2021
    Erillion said:
    Erillion said:
    Kyleran said:
    Clearly the backers are happy with what they see or are getting as the money keeps rolling in.

    Won't surprise me at all to see SC clear the $500M crowd funding mark, in fact even if the game(s) eventually do launch (and start being "sold") I expect CI to keep asking for more crowd funding to build future expansions or what not.

    They'll probably get it too.  Weird.


    I am one the backers that are happy with what they see.

    But you can call me biased ;-)


    As for the article ... its a collection of things said about Star Citizen since the projects beginning. Some true, some given a negative tone like Lahnmir said, none of it new, nowhere do they mention what makes Star Citizen appealing to its backers.



    Have fun
    Good to see you back!  Hope you've been doing well.

    I have.

    Sending things into space.

    For real ;-)


    Have fun
    She wasn't that bad surely, you could have just put her stuff in a box you know. ;)
    KyleranErillion
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,442
    Kyleran said:
    The only thing no one has a clue about, apparently not even CR or the CI dev team is when will either game launch.
    All the rest is pretty well understood by most.
    You can launch the game right now (It's free flight week), and gamers have been able to launch it since 2014. ;)
    Kyleran said:
    His behavior is easily explained, he's in a fight he can't win.
    Is there even a fight lol? From this side it's all good as I've found a game to call home already and have been having fun playing it for years while enjoying following it's development.  B)

    If the jadded homeless ex-mmorpg'ers who waste their time lashing at dev's and game companies while they desperately waiting for something worthy to arrive think they are winning more powert to them I guess. :D
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,050
    edited August 2021
    Babuinix said:
    Kyleran said:
    The only thing no one has a clue about, apparently not even CR or the CI dev team is when will either game launch.
    All the rest is pretty well understood by most.
    You can launch the game right now (It's free flight week), and gamers have been able to launch it since 2014. ;)
    Kyleran said:
    His behavior is easily explained, he's in a fight he can't win.
    Is there even a fight lol? From this side it's all good as I've found a game to call home already and have been having fun playing it for years while enjoying following it's development.  B)

    If the jadded homeless ex-mmorpg'ers who waste their time lashing at dev's and game companies while they desperately waiting for something worthy to arrive think they are winning more powert to them I guess. :D
    Of course jaded haters ignoring all the good stuff is dumb. But you are simply the other side of the coin.

    For every 'scam and vaporware' comment there is one of your 'this is completely normal in game development, and promising something is not really promising something unless you are making good on that promise because then I can't shut op about how awesome it is' comments.

    It doesn't matter what haters think, it doesn't matter what you think. We have huge player numbers and funds and a great alpha, we also have a dictionary worth of quotes talking about deadlines, features etc. that all haven't been met or have been broken. And haters ignoring the client by calling the game vaporware doesn't make a lick of sense just as much as your renaming/rebranding/reworking of what CIG as a company put out there when it comes to information and dates doesn't make any sense.

    For all I care you call these problems 'Flowers Up My Butt.' But these flowers would have been delivered a week too late, missing all the roses and tulips, the wrapping would have been bought seperately and they would already look a bit wilted.

    My point still stands, you can completely and utterly support and love the game while being critical of the company creating it at the same time, focussing on the good is fine but you are approaching 'living in lala land' every time you just "forget" half the story. Unless you think CIG is a meme generating company of course, then they are doing a AAA job.

    TLDR:

    Haters ignoring half of the story: Bad
    Babs ignoring half of the story: Good

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Kyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2021
    why is this even discussion jesus, years old stuff already beaten to death for so many years now on a loop, don't you get tired of copy/pasting the same stuff endlessly? at least the game changes over time to have something new to talk about, as slowly as that happens xD 
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,465
    Years ago, we used to see SC supporters deploying charts showing that seven years development happened to other released games.   We don't see those anymore, as there are only a few 10 year plus games to pretend to compare to.   

    Five more years, and SC will beat Duke Nukem Forever.  That's some rarefied air there.
    Scot

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    Years ago, we used to see SC supporters deploying charts showing that seven years development happened to other released games.   We don't see those anymore, as there are only a few 10 year plus games to pretend to compare to.   

    Five more years, and SC will beat Duke Nukem Forever.  That's some rarefied air there.
    We used to get the unicorn diagrams too, even those can no longer prove everything is just fine. ;)
  • nursonurso Member UncommonPosts: 327
    edited August 2021
    Babuinix said:
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.
    Do I understand you correctly, that you are saying that it is a process and should be understood as such ... and that one should not arbitrarily pick out points, which do not correctly reflect the fluidity of the whole, and compare them?
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

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  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,442
    edited August 2021
    Years ago, we used to see SC supporters deploying charts showing that seven years development happened to other released games.   We don't see those anymore, as there are only a few 10 year plus games to pretend to compare to.   

    Five more years, and SC will beat Duke Nukem Forever.  That's some rarefied air there.
    Scot said:
    We used to get the unicorn diagrams too, even those can no longer prove everything is just fine. ;)
    Those charts and graphics are still just as valid though. :D

    There's been so many heavily publicized examples of high profile studios/games taking just as long it shouldn't be a surprise anymore now yet some still like employ a selective memory.

    I mean, when Star Citizen was the only high profile crowdfunded game in the making and everyone was actually seeing development from the inception, way before all the other crowdfunded mmo's revealed exactly the same symptoms of game development you might get some slack for being ignorant about dev hurdles, but now?

    With the amount of highly publicized articles about top companies and games showcasing the exact same symptoms? No excuse.

    Have gamers forgot that Red Dead Redemption 2 took Rockstar 8+ years and required every single Rockstar studio to release? Or the CDProject Red's Cyberpunk debacle after 8+ development? or Frontiers Odyssey launch after 3 years of development?

    No self conscious and knowledgeable gamer would find it odd that crowdfunded games take longer than anticipated or that features and scope can change along the way.

    Again, is just being blissfully ignorant as an excuse to be angry at dev's while feeling righteous about it. A nice thick camouflage for the lack of knowledge and insight.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,017
    edited August 2021
    Star Citizen suffers from a problem that has long been known in software development:

    "Featuritis or creeping featurism is the tendency for the number of features in a product (usually software product) to rise with each release of the product. What may have been a cohesive and consistent design in the early versions may end up as a patchwork of added features. And with extra features comes extra complexity. As Donald Norman explains: "Complexity probably increases as the square of the features: double the number of features, quadruple the complexity. Provide ten times as many features, multiply the complexity by one hundred." (Norman 1988: p. 174)"

    This problem is very common, and requires strong management to avoid. SC has no strong management like that. In fact, they haven't even released anything yet, and are suffering a bad case of feeping creaturism.


    SovrathMendelArglebargle

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    Babuinix said:
    Years ago, we used to see SC supporters deploying charts showing that seven years development happened to other released games.   We don't see those anymore, as there are only a few 10 year plus games to pretend to compare to.   

    Five more years, and SC will beat Duke Nukem Forever.  That's some rarefied air there.
    Scot said:
    We used to get the unicorn diagrams too, even those can no longer prove everything is just fine. ;)
    Those charts and graphics are still just as valid though. :D

    There's been so many heavily publicized examples of high profile studios/games taking just as long it shouldn't be a surprise anymore now yet some still like employ a selective memory....
    I updated one of those old comparison images for you:


    [Deleted User]ErillionArglebargle
     
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Vrika said:
    Babuinix said:
    Years ago, we used to see SC supporters deploying charts showing that seven years development happened to other released games.   We don't see those anymore, as there are only a few 10 year plus games to pretend to compare to.   

    Five more years, and SC will beat Duke Nukem Forever.  That's some rarefied air there.
    Scot said:
    We used to get the unicorn diagrams too, even those can no longer prove everything is just fine. ;)
    Those charts and graphics are still just as valid though. :D

    There's been so many heavily publicized examples of high profile studios/games taking just as long it shouldn't be a surprise anymore now yet some still like employ a selective memory....
    I updated one of those old comparison images for you:


    Really not sure  how to  read that.

    While it's taken longer for these games to be made, they seem to have more going on, especially in the graphics department.

    Then again there are more tools at the disposal of developers to get them done.

    Still, while those games (not including Star Citizen) took longer to make they are solid games (love them or not.)

    Star Citizen seems ambitious and also might suffer from feature creep. So maybe there isn't anything to worry about unless they lose funding.
    ScotErillion
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited August 2021
    Sovrath said:
    Vrika said:
    Babuinix said:
    Years ago, we used to see SC supporters deploying charts showing that seven years development happened to other released games.   We don't see those anymore, as there are only a few 10 year plus games to pretend to compare to.   

    Five more years, and SC will beat Duke Nukem Forever.  That's some rarefied air there.
    Scot said:
    We used to get the unicorn diagrams too, even those can no longer prove everything is just fine. ;)
    Those charts and graphics are still just as valid though. :D

    There's been so many heavily publicized examples of high profile studios/games taking just as long it shouldn't be a surprise anymore now yet some still like employ a selective memory....
    I updated one of those old comparison images for you:


    Really not sure  how to  read that.

    While it's taken longer for these games to be made, they seem to have more going on, especially in the graphics department.

    Then again there are more tools at the disposal of developers to get them done.

    Still, while those games (not including Star Citizen) took longer to make they are solid games (love them or not.)

    Star Citizen seems ambitious and also might suffer from feature creep. So maybe there isn't anything to worry about unless they lose funding.
    I think it is well known that games take longer to make these days unless you use something like voxel, I would assume using kiddy cartoon graphics at least saves on some time as well. The question is how much longer would we expect it to be, a comparison against AAA games that started in 2011 would be closer.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    Scot said:
    I think it is well known that games take longer to make these days unless you use something like voxel, I would assume using kiddy cartoon graphics at least saves on some time as well. The question is how much longer would we expect it to be, a comparison against AAA games that started in 2011 would be closer.
    Game development time is heavily impacted by its ambition if you go outside the box.

    That is game engines are quite ready for a FPS shooter, for a normal linear story telling campaign type of game, for open-world survival type of game like Ark Survival, etc...

    When you go outside the box on this level, it forcefully becomes a heavy need of technology development to be able to fulfill design. MMO by default makes it all harder and more expensive to do at that.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 927
    edited August 2021
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Sometimes we need fantasy to survive reality 
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  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,017
    I went to the website to check out the free fly event. Right at the top is the "Pledge Store".

    A game that isn't even in beta already has a store. Sigh.

    And you can't buy anything, you can only donate. Since they aren't selling anything, all you can do is donate money in the hopes that a game eventually releases. If the game never releases, well, too bad.

    That is my biggest disappointment. A game in development for 10 years, not even in beta yet. But it has a store.

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Member RarePosts: 1,223
    I have been playing SC so much lately and really enjoying my time. 
    Erillion

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2021
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
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    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,050
    edited August 2021
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    But this is exactly what I don’t get, you are trying to invalidate point A.
    You still don't get it? There is no point A to begin with. It's a non issue that anyone with a clue would have come to realise just by observing the changes during development of many other (crowdfunded and normal) games development in this same forum.

    Cherry picking out of context phrases of dev's from years ago like it's some kind of gotcha is the only childish and tiring act here.

    Specially so when it's done by people who don't even seem to have actual knowledge or actual interest in this game (or gaming in general) besides the drama and rolling in the mud. :D

    Oh well, maybe someday ya'll can re-learn to enjoy games and appreciate game developers effort, until then:


    B)
    So according to Babs.  Developers can promise anything they want and not keep to a schedule at all as long as the players enjoy what they have.  and as long as people keep giving them money.

    This is why I have no respect for your stance.  You have zero integrity. 

    Any reasonable fanboy can at least say "yeah CR has done a really bad job at sticking to deadlines and promises, but I like what he's given us and I can wait another ten years for SQ32 if that's what it takes." 
    Babuinix
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