It could be that the New World game designers aren't familiar with MMO's, really. Remember, the game was originally going to be a kind of multi-player survival game. Perhaps they studied on survival games, which are pretty successful now, and decided "we can make this multi-player and cash in".
Then the market told them they needed PvE, and more elements like traditional MMORPG's have. So they bolted that on at the last minute.
The toxicity isn't just a pvp gaming trope by the looks of things over the last few years.
We seem to lack civility when we socialize and communicate anonymously in pretty much everything. It doesn't seem to matter whether we're killing our enemies in latest version of COD or talking Tulips.
The toxicity isn't just a pvp gaming trope by the looks of things over the last few years.
We seem to lack civility when we socialize and communicate anonymously in pretty much everything. It doesn't seem to matter whether we're killing our enemies in latest version of COD or talking Tulips.
So many forces trying to manipulate us.
I'm personally reflecting on others the way they treat me, be it online or in real life. Talk to me like crap, I'll do the same to you, and I don't need to be hidden behind a computer screen to do so.
It's obvious though that online, some completely lack any kind of compassion towards other players, and on the pretext of "it's just a game", they make other player's online time miserable just because they can. And that's why PvP MMOs with no serious limitations to ganking fail miserably.
The problem imho is when this trickles down into real life. That what seems to be happening now.
Age of Conan had very acceptable open world PvP for years. Guess what... ZERO faction based, was guild based and guild alliances/politics mattered.
So, since it is not factioned based... it wasn't "all of us vs all of you"... wasn't red = dead mentality. You want to kill or grief other players... be prepared for their guilds to hunt you down (and declare war on your guild).
Also, individual guilds can be asshats in a faction... and that faction has zero pvp retaliation capabilities. AoC, guilds swapped alliegences all the time... especially teaming up against exploiting guilds... made guild politics really matter.
Finally, AoC had limits on starter area PvP and PvP disabled in all major towns/cities.
PS - I love me some faction based RvR. Warhammer Online Reckoning (really tightly run server with tons of updates and almost weekly special content)... is where I get my fix. 300 vs 300 is common on a single castle with a 2008 server tech engine (which they put on crack)... doesn't lag out with full graphics and particle effects enabled & massive battle calculations needed... Amazon New World cant even limp past 50 vs 50 instanced.
I knew players in those AoC open world PvP servers, it is much like you say but after a few years the guild and "policing" structure broke down. I don't know if that happened on all those servers (but I think it did?) but those I knew definitely felt the server was better at the start than the end. Did they close them in the end or just merge them I can't remember now? The PvE servers (with optional fort wars) lasted better, that for me is one of the reasons I don't see open world pvp has having the long term potential of RvR.
I played AOC for the first three months after launch and I don't recall any of those Guild based enforcement practices but perhaps they developed after I left.
I do recall going to quest hubs and feverishly trying to get or turn in quests, speed scrolling past all text without reading in fear of being ganked as I stood there, often by a much higher level player.
Fortunately I was a stealther so could actually observe for a bit and try to detect other stealthers but I still got smacked enough to wish I could have gone back and played on a PVE server just to read all the text I passed over.
AOC was a gank fest, at quest givers, at respawn points, it was terrible.
And UO didn't have factions either... but still had to patch in a PvE mirror world to stop the constant griefing. So the whole "no factions = less ganking" logic falls apart. The people ganking don't give a shit about factions, if they could they would gank their own faction's newbies, and in some games where it was possible, they actually did.
Your legendary and fearful flight from UO is well documented, so your ignorance to its systems are excusable but UO had factions up to I think was publish 86 in 2016 , was 4 factions to be exact and was replaced with a 2 faction system Vice vs Virtue at that time ..
Have a nice day
And I was there during beta and at release of UO, and the game definitely didn't have factions back then.
They were actually added in Publish 8, on December 6., 2000, 3 years after release (and 5 after beta).
So... kiss the darkest part of my lily white !
That's wrong, their was Order Chaos within a couple months of release for sure. I think they called them virtue guards but they were factions and you could PVP in town against each other. If I remember you turned orange/green or something like that.
The faction system in Pub 8 was a completely new revamped system.
Age of Conan had very acceptable open world PvP for years. Guess what... ZERO faction based, was guild based and guild alliances/politics mattered.
So, since it is not factioned based... it wasn't "all of us vs all of you"... wasn't red = dead mentality. You want to kill or grief other players... be prepared for their guilds to hunt you down (and declare war on your guild).
Also, individual guilds can be asshats in a faction... and that faction has zero pvp retaliation capabilities. AoC, guilds swapped alliegences all the time... especially teaming up against exploiting guilds... made guild politics really matter.
Finally, AoC had limits on starter area PvP and PvP disabled in all major towns/cities.
PS - I love me some faction based RvR. Warhammer Online Reckoning (really tightly run server with tons of updates and almost weekly special content)... is where I get my fix. 300 vs 300 is common on a single castle with a 2008 server tech engine (which they put on crack)... doesn't lag out with full graphics and particle effects enabled & massive battle calculations needed... Amazon New World cant even limp past 50 vs 50 instanced.
I knew players in those AoC open world PvP servers, it is much like you say but after a few years the guild and "policing" structure broke down. I don't know if that happened on all those servers (but I think it did?) but those I knew definitely felt the server was better at the start than the end. Did they close them in the end or just merge them I can't remember now? The PvE servers (with optional fort wars) lasted better, that for me is one of the reasons I don't see open world pvp has having the long term potential of RvR.
I played AOC for the first three months after launch and I don't recall any of those Guild based enforcement practices but perhaps they developed after I left.
I do recall going to quest hubs and feverishly trying to get or turn in quests, speed scrolling past all text without reading in fear of being ganked as I stood there, often by a much higher level player.
Fortunately I was a stealther so could actually observe for a bit and try to detect other stealthers but I still got smacked enough to wish I could have gone back and played on a PVE server just to read all the text I passed over.
People have mentioned this to me before, maybe my mates had some of those rose coloured glasses on we hear so much about? Either that or they somehow figured you for a crim straight off the bat.
And I was there during beta and at release of UO, and the game definitely didn't have factions back then.
They were actually added in Publish 8, on December 6., 2000, 3 years after release (and 5 after beta).
So... kiss the darkest part of my lily white !
That's wrong, their was Order Chaos within a couple months of release for sure. I think they called them virtue guards but they were factions and you could PVP in town against each other. If I remember you turned orange/green or something like that.
The faction system in Pub 8 was a completely new revamped system.
Dude, just go read the patch notes. Order/Chaos was never a faction system. I was there... simple as that.
Trying to nitpick to evade the main argument which is faction don't stop ganking in a FFA PvP game.
Want another example ? Asheron's Call 1 didn't have factions either, yet ganking newbies and camping lifestones was a sport on Darktide.
It certainly was a faction system .. your wrong Jean
Here maybe this will help..
"For many years, Chaos and Virtue (called "Order") was a PvP system within the game, similar to guild wars or Factions."
would ya look at that , the dev actually calls it Factions .. go figure
and yes Order V Chaos was publish 006 very early on..Mater a fact in Sept /1999 they will already updating and patching the Order/Chaos Faction system ..
You saying you were there and actually understanding the systems that were in place are 2 different things
There were some very good points made about why this problem reoccurs. My two points additions are as follows:
Ego. The game developer seems to go into every new project with the mindset of 'that will not happen in MY game'. Then they don't include provisions to ensure it won't. If the issue is even recognized as a problem, they certainly don't have a solution for it. I'm not entirely sure there is an adequate answer to the 'murder hobo' (to steal a phrase) situation.
Money. The game development process focuses too much on the financial aspects long before low priority factors like human behavior are considered. The object is to provide a platform to extract money from customers, not to provide a limited experience that permits lawlessness and unacceptable behavior as a norm. Attempting to address the behavioral issues costs money, and that isn't good business.
Society has its own rules and regulations which determine what actions, manners and language is acceptable. There are various agencies to enforce these social mores from police to relatives. In real life there is no 'On-Off' switch to allow the miscreant to excuse behavior or avoid any repercussions. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Games can deliver the first, but have yet to deliver on the second part.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I think there are a lot of reasons as people have been stating. But to me the main things are:
1) SUPER HARDCORE: Devs and the bubble of people they hang around want hardcore PVP or PVE. Many will burn 90-100 hour week in their favorite game. People doing less than 40 weeks are casual to them. In pre alpha/alpha and beta testing a large majority of the participants are hardcore like this. They are equivalent to base jumpers, and need extreme stuff to get their adrenaline pumping. Hardcore PVP does that. Its like someone getting a scooter after they been riding a motorcycle for years. No adrenaline rush anymore.
These devs need to reach out and get more casuals into the testing process even if they have to pay them.
2) WEAK PERSONALITIES: Even the devs that are PVE focused and casual types. Many of these people don't have the strong enough personalities to go against the groupthink bubble. I will put Raph Koster into this group, he self proclaims as a casual PVE'er Dev that doesnt PVP much at all, he has been deving MMO's forever and I think is actually pretty intellectual and I like alot of the PVE systems he puts it. However, he was lead dev during the early griefest of UO and never fixed the problem, even when being hammered by top management to fix it. It wasn't until after he left, that a PVP focused Dev actually got the courage to put in the tough fixes to stop griefers to give PVE'ers a safe place to play, otherwise the game was going to dust. Many of these casual devs are just followers and parrot the talking point of the group think. People who are passionate are usually hardcore about things, so its a loop.
3) OVERCONFIDENCE: As has been stated, most of these Devs are in their own world. They don't reach out for opinions they think they know best and just go with it. This is another reason their are so many bugs they are so confident in their work they don't even check it EVER. So they think they can do it better, and don't even bother trying to figure out why others are failing. They find some obscure point and blame the entire failure on that. Repeating the cycle.
4) BUBBLE: All the people they hang around are thinking just like them. A very small minority of people have a very large voice in the bubble. I had a conversation with an MMO dev recently and I brought up that the average gamer worldwide only puts in 8 hours a week into games. Their response was that they didn't even believe that stat, and they don't know a single person who plays video games less than 20 hours a week. I will admit I am in a bubble also because I have a hard time thinking of anyone that plays 8 hours or less of video games per week, considering that's average I would think I would know more. Its usually they don't play at all or they play 20+
And I was there during beta and at release of UO, and the game definitely didn't have factions back then.
They were actually added in Publish 8, on December 6., 2000, 3 years after release (and 5 after beta).
So... kiss the darkest part of my lily white !
That's wrong, their was Order Chaos within a couple months of release for sure. I think they called them virtue guards but they were factions and you could PVP in town against each other. If I remember you turned orange/green or something like that.
The faction system in Pub 8 was a completely new revamped system.
Dude, just go read the patch notes. Order/Chaos was never a faction system, Chaos was mostly for murderers and they respawned at the chaos shrine. A guild warfare system was added in 1998, but that wasn't factions like we have e.g. in WoW, ESO or NW. I was there... simple as that.
Trying to nitpick to evade the main argument which is faction don't stop ganking in a FFA PvP game.
Want another example ? Asheron's Call 1 didn't have factions either, yet ganking newbies and camping lifestones was a sport on Darktide.
And it's always the same guy starting this shit. This time, his position in my ignore list is permanent.
Wrong again Jean .. Boy you are the gift that keeps on giving ..
And I was there during beta and at release of UO, and the game definitely didn't have factions back then.
They were actually added in Publish 8, on December 6., 2000, 3 years after release (and 5 after beta).
So... kiss the darkest part of my lily white !
That's wrong, their was Order Chaos within a couple months of release for sure. I think they called them virtue guards but they were factions and you could PVP in town against each other. If I remember you turned orange/green or something like that.
The faction system in Pub 8 was a completely new revamped system.
Dude, just go read the patch notes. Order/Chaos was never a faction system, Chaos was mostly for murderers and they respawned at the chaos shrine. A guild warfare system was added in 1998, but that wasn't factions like we have e.g. in WoW, ESO or NW. I was there... simple as that.
Trying to nitpick to evade the main argument which is faction don't stop ganking in a FFA PvP game.
Want another example ? Asheron's Call 1 didn't have factions either, yet ganking newbies and camping lifestones was a sport on Darktide.
And it's always the same guy starting this shit. This time, his position in my ignore list is permanent.
Wrong again Jean .. Boy you are the gift that keeps on giving ..
Yes yes yes .. its the same guy that consistently calls you out on the Bullshit you constantly post ..
Now it's obvious you've never played Asheron's Call, you dipshit. Those have NOTHING to do with PLAYER faction that would influence PvP. You haven't even read the link you're posting, you're just trolling now. And of course, considering the moderation of this website, favoring baiting and trolling, it will work.
So... at least let me get this off my chest... FUCK YOU ASSHOLE.
I need a break from this place anyway. You're even worse than delete, he's just a moron, you're a fucking asshole.
Get lost.
Played to level 210
If only you had actually took time to read .. Or if you again actaully played and understood the systems in place .. A recurring theme ..
Here out of the goodness of my heart i will help you , maybe you can avoid more of backpedaling and goal post moving semantics..
And yes if the Mods were to check the link they will clearly see that it holds a plethora of Faction PvP Asherons Call info .. Pages andpages of great info for AC Player Faction content..They will also note that your reaction is unwarranted and unacceptable..
Ill post some here for ALL to see
From the original link: to the Land Control Feature thru Player Faction Warfare in Asherons Call
Each Society has its own ideals and beliefs as to what should
happen on Dereth and beyond. Players are given the chance to discover
the principles of each Society and choose which group they want to join.
Once you have joined a joined a society you can begin earning Commendation Ribbons to gain access to tests to advance in society rank. Players in the top ranks gain entry to the Society Armor set and the landmasses Moarsman Isle and Freebooter Isle. You can also earn trade tokens to purchase various items such as society covers for Tailoring and writs that can be exchanged for keys to the society vaults.
The Land Control feature is also linked to the societies with each society attempting to gain control of various keeps.
Luckily, this problem of a lack of understanding is beginning to be addressed. Universities around the world are starting to take the games industry seriously, proper research is being done, conclusions are being found, suggestions are being made. It will just take a while for that new knowledge to filter its way into the industry.
Alot of what you said I agree with, but thinking that Universities and the people graduating now are more scientific and they are going to save us. LOL on that. If you haven't noticed its going the other way.
University science standards are dropping so much, that's half the problem. Engineering and Sciences are now infected with the low standards. You don't even need science for computer science anymore.
So if you are expecting Universities to fix this problem you going to be waiting a long long time.
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Luckily, this problem of a lack of understanding is beginning to be addressed. Universities around the world are starting to take the games industry seriously, proper research is being done, conclusions are being found, suggestions are being made. It will just take a while for that new knowledge to filter its way into the industry.
Alot of what you said I agree with, but thinking that Universities and the people graduating now are more scientific and they are going to save us. LOL on that. If you haven't noticed its going the other way.
University science standards are dropping so much, that's half the problem. Engineering and Sciences are now infected with the low standards. You don't even need science for computer science anymore.
So if you are expecting Universities to fix this problem you going to be waiting a long long time.
I'm not specifically expecting universities to fix the gaming industry.
I was just pointing out that there has been very little scientific research into gaming, which is why this is an industry of trial-and-error, rather than an industry of research and improvement.
I do think universities will help somewhat with the situation, not through undergraduate degrees but through post-graduate research. I also expect big game studios to start investing more money into research departments. I'm also sure that we'll end up with the equivalent of "think-tanks" that do nothing but research the games industry.
One thing I left out of my post is that there is (currently) no career path to becoming a game designer. No such thing as an apprentice / junior designer job in a games studio. Literally doesn't exist.
To become a games designer, you either have to design and build the game pretty much by yourself (much easier to do 30 years ago), or work your way up through a speciality, like programing, and then get lucky when you are near the top and can make the jump into game design. Neither is easy to do, and neither actually qualifies you for being a game designer.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
UO is not wrong and has been proven , Factions were in 1999(the
devs themsleves called it Faction Warfare) the links are above .. You
were wrong , and AC did have a very robust Faction system .. You are
wrong again in this regard , The links are above ..
Just because you did not experience or understand these systems does not mean they did not exist ..
A normal persons response would be ..
"Ohh hey look at that did not know , when i played they did not have it .."
But, Your response is like a 3 year old being told no cookies ..
Your
problem which has been consistent over the years is you do not like
being called out on the things you post and then just call names like a
kid ..
A recent article on New World had this 'observation' from the NW devs:
The devs invited a group of players to give it a whirl, and discovered that they didn’t tackle the game quite as expected. “We were hoping people would go out into the world – and we built this beautiful world that’s very similar to what we have now […] where they could build their own structures, where they could go and fight each other, and really chase each other down, and it was so cool. And that’s not what happened.”
What did happen was a fair bit of “griefing on the beach”, which the devs addressed so new players could join in and enjoy it. Then players started “grief[ing] at the settlement”. So, “now we’re gonna see if we can do opt-in PvP instead of required PvP,” Kaszynski says of the devs’ approach at this point.
- PCGamesN article 'Early New World fans played it like Rust'
Funny... around the turn of the century, the developers of UO discovered players would behave that way in an open world PVP game.
Countless examples of this were given in the early years of MMORPGs, including the ranters of the then-popular Lum the Mad's site - people normally against griefing - shocked to find they themselves took to doing it to lowbies in Glitchless' Race War Kingdoms.
Twenty years of history of MMO gamers doing the same exact thing. PVE players will locust thru PVE content. Open world PVP players will consistently target lower levels and those least interested in PVP. There is no evidence to indicate otherwise, yet studio after studio thinks they're going to do the same thing with different outcomes.
I used to think they were just ignorant of history or that it was some level of insanity. I've met lots and lots of MMO devs over the years, and I can safely say almost every one was impressive in their skills and knowledge related to their field. In that light, I can safely say I don't believe it is due to stupidity or lack of intelligence.
So what is it? Smart people at a company with gobs of cash/resources and access to 20-year history of player behavior in MMORPGs started Alpha 10 the way they did and were surprised by how things went sideways. What causes that, and how can we as players help prevent it from continuing to happen?
It seems to be "human nature" that *I* can do it better and do it right, this time. Look around the world at any endeavor and you hear the exact same words uttered.
On the surface, if *I* could fix this problem, it will work as intended. Then that "fix" shines light on 10 problems not seen at first glance.
What keeps this attitude alive is the 1 in 100,000 times an improvement actually works that keeps hope alive.
It happens to all humans at some point in time
Now to see what others have said
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Sometimes it makes one wonder if the designers even played a mmorpg before they designed one. Maybe they just read reviews from other games and watched a couple videos.
I’m not talking about the technical work.
Wasn't this Amazon's first crack at an MMO? (I could be mistaken here...)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Well not chased off , but looks like he got himself banned with his language acting like a child , then it looks like he deleted his acct like a child ..
It's hard to believe someone would get so worked up over a stupid game, or a stupid gaming website.
Whatever the reasons he left I hope comes back; he was a good poster, in todays age of social media forums need good posters.
Luckily, this problem of a lack of understanding is beginning to be addressed. Universities around the world are starting to take the games industry seriously, proper research is being done, conclusions are being found, suggestions are being made. It will just take a while for that new knowledge to filter its way into the industry.
Alot of what you said I agree with, but thinking that Universities and the people graduating now are more scientific and they are going to save us. LOL on that. If you haven't noticed its going the other way.
University science standards are dropping so much, that's half the problem. Engineering and Sciences are now infected with the low standards. You don't even need science for computer science anymore.
So if you are expecting Universities to fix this problem you going to be waiting a long long time.
I'm not specifically expecting universities to fix the gaming industry.
I was just pointing out that there has been very little scientific research into gaming, which is why this is an industry of trial-and-error, rather than an industry of research and improvement.
I do think universities will help somewhat with the situation, not through undergraduate degrees but through post-graduate research. I also expect big game studios to start investing more money into research departments. I'm also sure that we'll end up with the equivalent of "think-tanks" that do nothing but research the games industry.
One thing I left out of my post is that there is (currently) no career path to becoming a game designer. No such thing as an apprentice / junior designer job in a games studio. Literally doesn't exist.
To become a games designer, you either have to design and build the game pretty much by yourself (much easier to do 30 years ago), or work your way up through a speciality, like programing, and then get lucky when you are near the top and can make the jump into game design. Neither is easy to do, and neither actually qualifies you for being a game designer.
One thing I've noticed recently is that some players respond negatively to feedback and suggestions, especially when the developers of a particular game have stopped working on the game. Feedback *can* be useful to other developers building similar games. It is readily evident that a designer developing a game similar to another game simply doesn't check to see what people want from the old game, and therefore, don't consider it in their new game. Forget about academic research; the game companies don't appear to want outside opinions of any nature.
Case in point, how many Civilization clones, or colonize Mars/planets have been developed over the years? More than I care to count. Yet, how many of these new games actually bother to change the way the base game works, even if widely complained about in multiple, public feedback avenues (Steam, reddit, etc.)? There doesn't appear to be even the most rudimentary research done into existing, competing games to see what concerns players.
So, we get games that are all like, variations on a theme. No wonder so many of us are bored.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
We seem to lack civility when we socialize and communicate anonymously in pretty much everything. It doesn't seem to matter whether we're killing our enemies in latest version of COD or talking Tulips.
So many forces trying to manipulate us.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
What you meant to say is
" in my brief time in UO it did not have factions as I ran away very quickly and did not experience it"
As far anyone kissing you in darkest part of your lily white , I doubt anyone could as your own thumb would be in the way ..
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The faction system in Pub 8 was a completely new revamped system.
"For many years, Chaos and Virtue (called "Order") was a PvP system within the game, similar to guild wars or Factions."
would ya look at that , the dev actually calls it Factions .. go figure
and yes Order V Chaos was publish 006 very early on..Mater a fact in Sept /1999 they will already updating and patching the Order/Chaos Faction system ..
You saying you were there and actually understanding the systems that were in place are 2 different things
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Player Factions are groups established in the lore that players can join to take a bigger part in the game world.
Societies of Dereth
Main article: Societies of Dereth
Each Society has its own ideals and beliefs as to what should happen on Dereth and beyond. Players are given the chance to discover the principles of each Society and choose which group they want to join.
Once you have joined a joined a society you can begin earning Commendation Ribbons to gain access to tests to advance in society rank. Players in the top ranks gain entry to the Society Armor set and the landmasses Moarsman Isle and Freebooter Isle. You can also earn trade tokens to purchase various items such as society covers for Tailoring and writs that can be exchanged for keys to the society vaults.
The Land Control feature is also linked to the societies with each society attempting to gain control of various keeps.
University science standards are dropping so much, that's half the problem. Engineering and Sciences are now infected with the low standards. You don't even need science for computer science anymore.
So if you are expecting Universities to fix this problem you going to be waiting a long long time.
There isn't a thing that we haven't managed to fuck up or corrupt yet
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Wasn't this Amazon's first crack at an MMO? (I could be mistaken here...)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.