I personally have a problem to understand the incompatibility between "group" and "casual" content. You can without any doubt have casual group content, most MMOs are filled to the brim with it.
Or is it rather forcing group content on antisocial players ?
I think it is forcing people to group to complete a quest line. New World does this - I cannot even enter the dungeon as a solo player.
Most MMOs have that kind of quest lines - WoW has quite a few since 2004.
Or quests which end in "elite" areas too. LOTRO had many of those.
I personally don't mind, I'm in no hurry, I do those when I find a group. God forbid you have to group with others sometimes in a Massively Multiplayer Online Game...
What I call "forced" grouping was Everquest. Unless you were of some specific classes, you couldn't solo at all. And even then, it wasn't efficient at all. That's true forced grouping, but then, nobody is forcing you to play such games.
I'd rather see a dungeon in the main story line have options.
You can group it. You can over level and solo it. You can use stealth (or alternative styles of play). You can use a pick up group (ghost off other solos playing that dungeon)
To be locked out entirely unless you have the requisite number of people is silly.
I agree with this part. Just make the dungeon/encounter (if it's a space game or "whatever") and allow the player(s) to figure out how to get through it. I used to do this all the time in Vanguard. I'd enter areas that were clearly for a group but I'd slowly and methodically make my way through, pulling one at a time but being quick enough so that I didn't catch a respawn.
It was a lot of fun. especially when things went "tits up."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
maybe make interacting with others more interesting? The elephant in the room is always the design of the game, which largely determines players behaviors.
I was doing a group quest in LoTRO last night solo, using the Elf Stone to boost my level. Then it was getting really hard, and I noticed the Elf Stone had worn off and I couldn't reapply it. So I finished the dungeon anyway. It was an actual challenge.
"Why have you decided that any form of solo content is meant to be a joke with 0 difficulty and the only difficult content in an mmorpg should be group content?
Specifically high end organized group content which is something only a minority touches and experiences since most players just want to login, que and have fun and get a reward for their time. Instead of dealing with organized schedules, people and certain obnoxious tryhard types, the social wall is the main reason they dont bother with your well designed high end group content so why not start designing content with those people in mind?"
Challenging solo PVE content can break the will of the strongest player. When it's just you, and you have to face the fact that you just might not be good enough, that you aren't good enough, your desire to continue just might end. Bad for business.
Hey and lets face it the PVE type are pretty fragile.
I was doing a group quest in LoTRO last night solo, using the Elf Stone to boost my level. Then it was getting really hard, and I noticed the Elf Stone had worn off and I couldn't reapply it. So I finished the dungeon anyway. It was an actual challenge.
One of the many reasons I like Sandbox games better is that when I do a Dungeon Solo, which I wasn't able to conquer, but could survive, in most cases, it's a real challenge because it's designed for groups. But the spawns get boosted with groups due to fast MOB deaths, so going Solo doesn't have that beefed up spawn. But it's definitely fun to do what many others haven't.
On the flip side, though, for fun over challenge, I really enjoy going with guildmates or others that I know just as well. Even a new friend I just met can be fun.
ideally you want group content that is meant for three players. The reason is simple. A single player can tackle this content if they have sufficient skill, a duo of players can also tackle this content and assembling a team of three is easy.
there are some who want larger groups but I believe 3 is the right number for many reasons including the one above.
this also opens the door for sets of three to be operational in a dungeon so you might have certain dungeons with 3 or 4 groups of three operating independently but with a common goal. Other dungeons might only require one or two groups of three and this function can scale as long as the dungeons are designed properly.
Of course the game has to be designed for it. Tank, healer dps wont work with this setup. You need more well rounded characters and more dynamic gameplay.
Devil's Advocate: Why would a MMORPG be solo friendly when numerous single player titles exist?
Devil's Advocate: How do you balance a game for solo friendly and group play. Seems one group is crying too easy at the time the other group is crying too hard.
I'll jump in on this one.
A few games have addressed this issue.
GW2, Open World Events, mainly world bosses, would scale up by the number of people around them, this means, if 10 people showed up to kill Shadow Beast, it would scale to 10 people, if 100 people showed up, it would scale to be a fight for 100 people.
DDO: The Dungeons are Scaled by Both, Difficulty, and Party Size. This means that a if a party of 6 people went into a Hard Dungeon, it would be harder than if 3 people went in.
They also have mechanics in place that can make a dungeon requite 2 or more people, that is not all about DPS, the easiest examples I can give, is pulling two levers that are far apart from each other, and you have like 3 seconds to pull both of them, this cannot be done solo.
Personally, my belief here, based on my sampling, is that the people that often want forced group content, or content that requires a group, are often people that play support roles and want to be either carried because of it, or want to use their support role classification to get them into what is raid content.
Personally I loved the way GW2 has a system set up where players could work together, without needing to be in a formal group, with Bronze, Silver, and Gold level rewards, that really made for a beautiful organic nature to their open world content.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Nowadays most games don't actually need one to group. Perhaps end game but considering the high quality of that loot grouping is not an unusual requirement. I like how FFXIV did allow one to work on their weapon solo.
As you well know though FFXIV needs you to play in groups throughout the game but like I said you can get your weapon upgrade in a series of long steps. However not very sure if this is salient as you need to group for a lot of the other content, you won't even be able to proceed with the main story quest without grouping.
I am unsure what has happened over the years but recently I went to check on my old classic server and had a look at my old toons and to my horror I found the server on Horde side completely dead. Nothing I mean not even one item was on the AH.
Yes one can solo in WoW classic and probably you can level on quest gear but truly not even having some interaction in the AH is pretty brutal. One can object to having to group but not seeing anyone in an MMORPG is pretty sad. I think the recent Season of Mastery has totally sunk the population on the old classic servers.
This begs the question on whether the monthly sub is the reason for this desolation as the private servers seem to still continue but the official servers have lost their population. People say the servers were dead before the arrival of the ill advised and executed Season of Mastery or did it actually hasten the demise of these servers. Blizzard seems very sanguine and not inclined to help the servers aside from some token transfers have done nothing to help the servers. One server had 10 people on Horde side in Hydraxian Waterlord. What a disgrace!
So grouping isn't as draconian as it was in Everquest as has been pointed out here. Most games allow you to progress to end game without even grouping once. To even allow end game gear made available to non grouping individuals seems a bit too much merely because than no one would even bother to group because of the hassle of trying to get people to be free when you are to do the content. Of course it nice for the person who wants to solo and get great gear but what about the people that do want to group. When you make it no longer a requirement it will spell doom for any grouping overall because human beings always take the easy way out. There is no two ways about that. It will end all grouping and that is a very bad thing for an MMORPG if it is looking for longevity.
1) Social Interaction is not the same as Forced Grouping
2) This is the Massively Multiplayer genre, if you aren't designing your game around that feature, then you're doing it wrong.
3) Single Player mechanics aren't good in a Multiplayer environment
Kinda huge so I ll focusing on the 3 main points
1)
Like i explained earlier, if the reward you desire is locked behind
socialization, you have little choice to begrudgingly do it unless you
choose to quit.
And I will disagree about the
community point, what keeps me and I assume many others who dont bother
with socializing is the power grind, it is different playstyles I can
experience in different encounters, different things I can do in those
encounters with different builds and classes. It is the great combat gameplay that keeps me playing.
Desiring a reward is not the same thing as being forced to try to obtain it. Otherwise the entire game can be considered forced.
A strong community has also been proven to increase retention in the genre. All games that try to promote a good community have lasted way longer than the games which don't bother.
That said, a diverse community is the strongest community. So, whilst I disagree on what you consider forced grouping, I am a big believer in creating an MMORPG that supports as many different playstyles as possible. This means a good mix of solo and group, easy and difficult, PvE and PvP etc.
2)
That sounds like rigid thinking to me, like someone pointed out,
mmorpg genre can be a bit insane by how often it is played by people who
enjoy the gameplay yet dont socialize, what i called the solo mindset.
If that is how the mmorpg genre has evolved and that is how most people treat the genre, why not embrace that rather than stick to rigid and outdated ideas about the genre that make sense, but reality proved otherwise.
It
is similar to how some continue to stick to clearly outdated economic
models, that might make sense in theory, but reality proves they do not
function like expected when actual people are involved.
It may seem like rigid thinking, and in a way it is, but it is also based on very sound economics.
There are no game engines that you can use, off-the-shelf, that support massively multiplayer numbers. That means you either have to build your own engine, or hack an off-the-shelf engine. Both options cost an incredible amount of time, effort and money.
So, I ask you: why bother spending millions developing a feature that you never use?
Do you not think it would be better to save that money and just make a single player RPG? Or build a coop RPG?
Use your own reasoning. If, as you say, the vast majority of players are playing MMORPGs solo, then why would you ever bother building a new massively multiplayer game? Why not just build a solo game?
3) Are you thinking of the chance group raiding would die if people could do it solo for the same rewards?
Because
if it does, it might mean group raiding is obsolete and people might
enjoy solo progression raiding more since after all, the main problem
with group high end raiding is the fact that other people's failures
waste your own time.
I am talking about linear questing and vertical progression primarily, not anything to do with rewards.
Virtually all single player RPGs are built on linear questing and vertical progression. Gaining more strength or health, or following the story through a quest line, are both very obvious to players and make sense. Because it is single player and linear, these mechanics make sense and the entire game is balanced around it.
However, whilst these mechanics work fine in a single player environment, they drive players apart in a multiplayer game. You cannot play with your friends because they're on different quests. You cannot play with your friends because they're higher level than you. Add to that the different factions you might be in, or different guilds, or different classes.....
All these mechanics do is drive a wedge between players, making it ever harder to play with friends.
Hence me saying that single player mechanics don't work well in a multiplayer environment. The whole point of a multiplayer game is to play with other people, yet so many of the mechanics prevent us from doing so.
This is why I also say I don't blame the players or the community. I cannot fault players for playing solo when the mechanics are driving them towards playing solo.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
maybe make interacting with others more
interesting? The elephant in the room is always the design of the game,
which largely determines players behaviors.
They
already do that, they are often incentivizing organized non que
grouping for high end content by locking the best rewards and power
behind that which requires interaction with others.
Yet
even then, many people either quit or tell themselves they are never
gonna get those things because they cant be bothered with the social
barrier, they clearly desire the rewards, WHO WOULDNT WANT the coolest
rewards and most powerful items?
But the social barrier stops those people because no mater how rewarding it is, interacting with others is not something fun.
Oh
yeah, or we just buy a boost, boosts have been godsend in mmorpgs
because it means if you have enough currency, you can just pay a
professional booster group to get the reward for you while you dont have
to do anything or interact with them, pay them, get invited to the
group, let them do the work and get the cool thing you want, because for
many of us I will remind you, we care about the cool reward, not the
"""prestige""" which is meaningless.
I
am not sure why people are so unable to accept that many of us dont
really care about socializing and just want to enjoy the gameplay and
have fun, it is like, you want to find ways to enforce socializing when
more and more people care about their personal fun, something that
doesnt include socializing or talking with others.
Developers cannot control human
nature or the type of person someone is, they can try to incentivize but
that has proven to not work because people still choose to avoid
others.
Desiring a reward is not the same thing as being forced to try to obtain it. Otherwise the entire game can be considered forced.
A strong community has also been proven to increase retention in the genre. All games that try to promote a good community have lasted way longer than the games which don't bother.
That said, a diverse community is the strongest community. So, whilst I disagree on what you consider forced grouping, I am a big believer in creating an MMORPG that supports as many different playstyles as possible. This means a good mix of solo and group, easy and difficult, PvE and PvP etc.
If the gameplay is enjoyed though, you are not forced, because you end up getting the reward you want by something that doesnt cause you discomfort but only costs time.
If i am forced to deal with other players because the rewards I want are locked behind organized high end content I am not enjoying myself anywhere near as much, I enjoy my own personal performance but I dont give a damn about others at that moment(Hence why I never play healers or tanks or support), I am forcing myself to deal with people I dislike just to get the reward, that is not a fun experience.
I dont disagree that a strong community could be beneficial, FF14 would be a good example, but I personally dont care about the community, I care about the gameplay, you can have the nicest goody 2 shoes community and I still would choose to focus on solo gameplay and getting the rewards that way, IF it is possible.
I explained the reasons why I and assuming many like me stay in a game and it has nothing to do with community, it is about progression and gameplay, gameplay which can be very diverse based on each class and build.
So, I ask you: why bother spending millions developing a feature that you never use?
Do you not think it would be better to save that money and just make a single player RPG? Or build a coop RPG?
Use your own reasoning. If, as you say, the vast majority of players are playing MMORPGs solo, then why would you ever bother building a new massively multiplayer game? Why not just build a solo game?
There's 2 answers here, the obvious one being that even if mmorpg developers are wrong to force grouping, they still believe it and thus still require such an engine.
After all the existence of this thread is about why the devs arent listening to the market where most people dont even tough high end organized group content.
The 2nd and more important answer is that, you do need it either way in an mmorpg, by solo I dont mean being in a dead world with no people around, people running around doing their own thing is great, it makes the game feel alive including spontaneous world events that might require more players around, which again like I have said consider part of the solo mindset since it requires 0 social interaction just like que systems, plus it is also needed for que based casual pvp, you need other people to kill after all.
I am talking about linear questing and vertical progression primarily, not anything to do with rewards.
Virtually
all single player RPGs are built on linear questing and vertical
progression. Gaining more strength or health, or following the story
through a quest line, are both very obvious to players and make sense.
Because it is single player and linear, these mechanics make sense and
the entire game is balanced around it.
However, whilst
these mechanics work fine in a single player environment, they drive
players apart in a multiplayer game. You cannot play with your friends
because they're on different quests. You cannot play with your friends
because they're higher level than you. Add to that the different
factions you might be in, or different guilds, or different classes.....
What
you are describing is transferring a single player designed game into
an online world which is obviously gonna have huge issues, just to
remind something, but by solo I focus on content that requires no social
interaction, that includes group content via que systems, or killing
some world boss together with others with 0 words exchanged, not a
literally single player game player.
I am not
asking for grouping to be removed, I am saying that we should absolutely
keep grouping so people have the CHOICE to do things together, after
all many people might want to play with an actual friend you know, which
I believe you understand is different than interacting with a gaming
community itself.
Many of the things you
mentioned though do still exist or existed at the early days of mmorpgs
before solutions were invented so I am not sure of your point exactly.
Scaling
often exists to make that possible, so a person that is high level
doesnt absolutely destroy the experience of someone on a lower area or a
friend who is not yet as geared.
Even to this day usually,
you cant play the old story at the same time as your new friend but you
can help them with killing of quest mobs etc in the open world content,
unless there's special phases like in swtor for parts of quests.
All these mechanics do is drive a wedge between players, making it ever harder to play with friends.
Hence
me saying that single player mechanics don't work well in a multiplayer
environment. The whole point of a multiplayer game is to play with
other people, yet so many of the mechanics prevent us from doing so.
This
is why I also say I don't blame the players or the community. I cannot
fault players for playing solo when the mechanics are driving them
towards playing solo.
And that is where I will heavily disagree.
You
state "the whole point of a multiplayer game is to play with other
people" yet as you have seen many in mmorpgs have the solo mindset of
just enjoying the gameplay without ever talking in qued group content,
the enjoyment of the game is our priority and focus, not playing it with
others.
Others existing is VITAL for an mmorpg, you want an alive world and people to kill and compete against in many areas, we dont care about them as people though, they are there to enhance our gameplay experience.
And
to my original point, I am mainly focusing on the fact that solo que
has been a success in the sense it got people to do content they wouldnt
do otherwise do due to the social barrier of old dungeon systems that
required talking and social interaction with others (Pre solo que LFG systems, an era some are nostalgic for but it only seemed to gatekeep content), and combining that with the small number of people who do high end content(Which often has the best power and cosmetic rewards so incentive exists already for grouping) I
am arguing that we have a big number of people who treat mmorpgs as a
single player experience, it is all about them, not the community, it is
about personal enjoyment and gameplay that benefits for the existence
of others in the world, without others you cant pvp, you cant
outperform, you cant have auction competitions etc, you have all those
without needing social interaction.
So if
we have the current design already incentivizing grouping for the best
rewards, why do you assume that people want to group badly but the game
mechanics are just not friendly to that?
Because at least
based on the above, I am seeing the literal opposite, people want to do
content, but they dont want social interaction explaing the success of
solo que lfg systems and the well known meme of "this is group content
but nobody talks and just goes to killing stuff"
Think he's referring to the mega monster that is mobile gaming with their mostly solo player approach for game design.
No, I was mostly referring to mmorpg population though I did make a comment about solo que allowing for people to login in, que, have fun and get a reward for their time.
Something many big and successful pc and mobile games do, they allow people to have fun instantly, no strings attached, there's no need to schedule raid times, organize or deal with annoying people that will often always exist in raid guilds since you need a lot of people or that person that keeps dying to the same mechanic again and against wasting your precious gaming hours.
But my main focus was mmorpg populations, we know solo que has been widely successful in getting more people in content they wouldnt do otherwise, I dont believe anyone disagrees with that.
But then when there's statistics available you see the numbers of people doing high end group content, and the number is always so small, it makes you wonder what is the vast majority of the playerbase doing, and makes me wonder:
Why are the devs focusing on high end organized group content instead of creating something similar, progression style solo content that benefits from power progression, hell like I said those two can be combined with raids that have a solo option so everyone gets to access and try out said content instead of only a tiny minority.
Why are we even dividing group content and solo content by difficulty and treating solo content as piss easy and group content as the only content allowed to be hard, I see no reason for that to be the case, have both easy and difficult content in both areas or combine them like i suggested previously so there is no content that isnt available to huge groups of people.
But among the bigger mmorpgs you dont see any that have any seriously hard solo content, or even balance it around power progression so similar to raids, you spend a few weeks farming gear before you are able to beat let's say the 5th boss, thus solo progression becomes a thing.
No in almost all big mmorpgs you can roflstomp your way through solo content with even mediocre gear, there's one off, Swtor's master mode chapters and eternal champion were nice but that was not the same as solo progression based content, it was just a hard challenge you do once and that's it, there's no repeating it for loot like you do with raids and you dont need better gear to progress further.
It is like being able to clear a full raid with blue gear week 2, there would be no feeling of progression if that was a thing and that is what today's mmorpg solo content suffers heavily from.
I will use a term I am not fond of due to a number of reasons but should accurately describe my point:
"The market will decide"
Well in regards to mmorpgs it seems the market has decided that the majority want more soloq focused gameplay since they avoid content that requires socialization and organized grouping leading to only a minority doing that, and that is before you subtract all the people like me who are forced to do high end organized group content for the reward and IN A HEARTBEAT would go and do the solo versions of said raid to get the reward I want.
How many people are left then that truly enjoy and would continue doing organized group content?
It would seem many devs dont want to follow the market due to some weird sense of nostalgia and mmorpg "purity" some people also seem to share, that idea of the "good old hardcore mmorpgs" that everytime they pop up either die, remain tiny or have to change to more casual/solo friendly design to survive,
that should be a hint, the market does not want hardcore punishment, heavily organized group focused games, many nostalgic devs and players do, but not the market.
Exactly what you wrote above 1000%. The majority of gaming company profits come from the solo/casual player enjoying the game(s) by themselves. Those players are the ones others in the game may not even know exist. The vocal whales and world first people are the minority along with people who believe that all MMO's must have "incentivized social grouping content". It's just the way gaming has evolved with society and to not recognize it is probably some or all of what you mentioned above but also maybe a little fear of the unknown.
I have no problem going about finding groups to do stuff because it's what I've always done so I've mentally set up a system like some trained hamster xD but definitely see how more solo content without the need for "forced socializing" could benefit everyone.
Nowadays most games don't actually need one to group. Perhaps end game but considering the high quality of that loot grouping is not an unusual requirement. I like how FFXIV did allow one to work on their weapon solo.
As you well know though FFXIV needs you to play in groups throughout the game but like I said you can get your weapon upgrade in a series of long steps. However not very sure if this is salient as you need to group for a lot of the other content, you won't even be able to proceed with the main story quest without grouping.
I am unsure what has happened over the years but recently I went to check on my old classic server and had a look at my old toons and to my horror I found the server on Horde side completely dead. Nothing I mean not even one item was on the AH.
Yes one can solo in WoW classic and probably you can level on quest gear but truly not even having some interaction in the AH is pretty brutal. One can object to having to group but not seeing anyone in an MMORPG is pretty sad. I think the recent Season of Mastery has totally sunk the population on the old classic servers.
This begs the question on whether the monthly sub is the reason for this desolation as the private servers seem to still continue but the official servers have lost their population. People say the servers were dead before the arrival of the ill advised and executed Season of Mastery or did it actually hasten the demise of these servers. Blizzard seems very sanguine and not inclined to help the servers aside from some token transfers have done nothing to help the servers. One server had 10 people on Horde side in Hydraxian Waterlord. What a disgrace!
So grouping isn't as draconian as it was in Everquest as has been pointed out here. Most games allow you to progress to end game without even grouping once. To even allow end game gear made available to non grouping individuals seems a bit too much merely because than no one would even bother to group because of the hassle of trying to get people to be free when you are to do the content. Of course it nice for the person who wants to solo and get great gear but what about the people that do want to group. When you make it no longer a requirement it will spell doom for any grouping overall because human beings always take the easy way out. There is no two ways about that. It will end all grouping and that is a very bad thing for an MMORPG if it is looking for longevity.
Congrats on making Gold!
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I hate to say this in sounding like I'm 'shilling' for companies, but I honestly support design diversity. Whether people like their options or not, they do have them if they want to play games with certain design choices. I can respect companies that do not cave to financial pressure just to earn the most money they can by compromising their vision. If some games force grouping, there are still those that dont so much (like GW2/ESO) and if they do, they try to accommodate (as the OP stated with solo queues). FFXIV is even going further with their trust system to allow people to do certain instances solo if they choose for whatever reason. All in all, I dont think its about choose one or the other but trying to make accommodations for those that companies want to include. Consumers also have to be understanding that there are just some things they wont be able to achieve at all or unless they spend a lot of time waiting. If I play a game casually and rarely participate in difficult group content, I dont want to be able to be of the same strength as someone who does since I dont feel I've 'earned' it, but that's just me. I dont want every game to be as accommodating as say FFXIV though because I'll end up feeling like I'm just playing the same game with a different coat of paint, if that makes sense.
In an ideal world this would be what happens and we would have a very diverse set of gaming genres, with in each genre subsets of diversity prospering. But in the real world this has not happened, for reasons which vary from designers wanting to maximise their player base to investors being put off by anything that is not tried and tested.
The MMORPG genre has possibly been effected by this more than any other genre, there are templates seen as working and you leave them at your peril. This effects everything from having an auction house to how important group play is. The problem with trying to accommodate everyone is some gameplay styles have a detrimental effect on each other, PvE/PvP is the classic example of that.
When you said "FFXIV is even going further with their trust system to allow people to do certain instances solo if they choose for whatever reason", that shows how much the 'casual solo player' is the one who designers have come to make these games for. Even a grouping MMO like FFXIV has to cave in and slowly become an all solo game. There are a lot more "Raphies" on their forums and they have pushed the solo casual agenda that has pushed MMORPG's to this point. There is no diversity, there is only one template to rule them all.
Now don't think I just point my finger at the casuals, remember I mentioned designers wanting to increase their player base? They leapt on the chance to make their new MMOs (and change their current ones) more solo player friendly. This desire for more and more players has led us through a number of iterations until we reach making MMOs 'mobile player friendly'. It has resulted in many more players and turned the MMORPG genre into some sort of Blob that hardly inspires as it once did; but the profits are bigger so designers will not change direction.
the way i see it most dungeons are linear kill fests in most games. There are few distractions from this. Even in a group there is little need for interaction. Its just a path of destruction and collect phat l33t in most cases. You might have to play some dance dance revolution when you get to the boss but the formula is pretty stagnant.
rejection of this content is not really on the players but the developers lack of imagination.
a three man scalable group structure with the situational mitigation concept will solve alot of grouping vs soloing issues passively but they still need to build compelling content that goes beyond throwing just a bunch of enemies and loot in a cave to make it interesting for players.
the way i see it most dungeons are linear kill fests in most games. There are few distractions from this. Even in a group there is little need for interaction. Its just a path of destruction and collect phat l33t in most cases. You might have to play some dance dance revolution when you get to the boss but the formula is pretty stagnant.
rejection of this content is not really on the players but the developers lack of imagination.
a three man scalable group structure with the situational mitigation concept will solve alot of grouping vs soloing issues passively but they still need to build compelling content that goes beyond throwing just a bunch of enemies and loot in a cave to make it interesting for players.
You have to start with giving players a reason to interact, dungeons do that, but you are right they are not truly designed for much interaction. Indeed some systems like dungeon group finders cut back what interaction there is. But team players in MMORPg's have long gone past the stage where beggars can be choosers, we have to grab hold of any group play there is for dear life.
There are many forms of gameplay that could have more interaction, one I have seen had small teams competing dungeon objectives with the help of the other team, I think this was two four man groups which were part of the same eight man "group". Little design looks to complement interaction though, so we have little interaction.
the way i see it most dungeons are linear kill fests in most games. There are few distractions from this. Even in a group there is little need for interaction. Its just a path of destruction and collect phat l33t in most cases. You might have to play some dance dance revolution when you get to the boss but the formula is pretty stagnant.
rejection of this content is not really on the players but the developers lack of imagination.
a three man scalable group structure with the situational mitigation concept will solve alot of grouping vs soloing issues passively but they still need to build compelling content that goes beyond throwing just a bunch of enemies and loot in a cave to make it interesting for players.
You have to start with giving players a reason to interact, dungeons do that, but you are right they are not truly designed for much interaction. Indeed some systems like dungeon group finders cut back what interaction there is. But team players in MMORPg's have long gone past the stage where beggars can be choosers, we have to grab hold of any group play there is for dear life.
There are many forms of gameplay that could have more interaction, one I have seen had small teams competing dungeon objectives with the help of the other team, I think this was two four man groups which were part of the same eight man "group". Little design looks to complement interaction though, so we have little interaction.
It is the quality of the interaction that bothers me. I have been in groups that aside from the initial hello and good bye later and the macroed 'OOM' or 'pulling' nothing was spoken in between. I have been in FFXI groups where using the conversation wheel you can say things in Japanese and the Japanese can likewise speak in English had more meaningful conversations going as far as to as to explain where I was from. Mere interaction is all we have these days. People just don't bother to actually get to know the people they group with because they are treated like NPCs for all intents and purposes. One of the reasons I try to find good guilds over finding groups lacking any meaningful interaction is for this reason. I also am not blaming people for not talking. They may be shy or afraid of holding up the group. I for one cannot type and play and someone will die if I try to do both as a healer.
My hesitancy these days come from my advancing age and lack of confidence in doing well in groups and not because of my hatred of grouping.
the way i see it most dungeons are linear kill fests in most games. There are few distractions from this. Even in a group there is little need for interaction. Its just a path of destruction and collect phat l33t in most cases. You might have to play some dance dance revolution when you get to the boss but the formula is pretty stagnant.
rejection of this content is not really on the players but the developers lack of imagination.
a three man scalable group structure with the situational mitigation concept will solve alot of grouping vs soloing issues passively but they still need to build compelling content that goes beyond throwing just a bunch of enemies and loot in a cave to make it interesting for players.
You have to start with giving players a reason to interact, dungeons do that, but you are right they are not truly designed for much interaction. Indeed some systems like dungeon group finders cut back what interaction there is. But team players in MMORPg's have long gone past the stage where beggars can be choosers, we have to grab hold of any group play there is for dear life.
There are many forms of gameplay that could have more interaction, one I have seen had small teams competing dungeon objectives with the help of the other team, I think this was two four man groups which were part of the same eight man "group". Little design looks to complement interaction though, so we have little interaction.
It is the quality of the interaction that bothers me. I have been in groups that aside from the initial hello and good bye later and the macroed 'OOM' or 'pulling' nothing was spoken in between. I have been in FFXI groups where using the conversation wheel you can say things in Japanese and the Japanese can likewise speak in English had more meaningful conversations going as far as to as to explain where I was from. Mere interaction is all we have these days. People just don't bother to actually get to know the people they group with because they are treated like NPCs for all intents and purposes. One of the reasons I try to find good guilds over finding groups lacking any meaningful interaction is for this reason. I also am not blaming people for not talking. They may be shy or afraid of holding up the group. I for one cannot type and play and someone will die if I try to do both as a healer.
My hesitancy these days come from my advancing age and lack of confidence in doing well in groups and not because of my hatred of grouping.
Well I played in FFXI, maybe players said more because with language differences they had to be sure everyone knew what they were doing? Damn, I did not put that one on my MMORPG list! Well I was in it for only a month, the timezone was problematic but the connection was what killed it for me, I could not work out why my connection was so bad, mind you I am not sure I was even on 2MB back then.
You are right though, dungeons do not lend themselves to interaction, the best way to encourage interaction I have heard of is the "resting" system in SWG, where you sought a Minstrel (?) to handle your combat fatigue. Imagine getting fatigue for any activity, more for combat, less like crafting and once it starts to effect your abilities having to go to a tavern or the like to hear music. How about more rest for those who sit down and have a drink or unwind with a dance? That's what I would do to create a hub of interaction.
need to move from linear to a radial dungeon design. Current dungeons are more like a highway. You dont expect to talk to people on the highway.
radial design resolves this problem to some extent because you start in a central hub and activities stem from the hub. You need to decide who goes where, who does what task, who is best suited for tougher tasks etc, when to split your forces. This opens the door for more dynamic gameplay such as using stealth, drawing enemies away, traps and puzzles, division of labor, multiple objectives and global objectives. etc.
the trash-->miniboss-->trash--->boss model is played out and lame.
Yet again and again you see developers trying to force people into group content, because they have decided that group content is the be all end all of mmorpgs even when the amounts of solo focused players keeps rising. Why so focused on getting people to play your group content when you could just create solo/solo que content that more people would experience and enjoy than the minority of high end pvers/pvpers.
What MMORPGs do you play that require you to do group content? I know it's an option in many but can't think of any that force it upon you.
Yet again and again you see developers trying to force people into group content, because they have decided that group content is the be all end all of mmorpgs even when the amounts of solo focused players keeps rising. Why so focused on getting people to play your group content when you could just create solo/solo que content that more people would experience and enjoy than the minority of high end pvers/pvpers.
What MMORPGs do you play that require you to do group content? I know it's an option in many but can't think of any that force it upon you.
New World does it more than most although they're walking some of that back.
The main quest line stops dead on its track until you do 3 group expeditions.
They have now changed the first 2 of those compulsory dungeon runs by providing a solo option for them.
The end game though is still pretty much all about grouping. No solo game play really after 60... not even alts.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Yet again and again you see developers trying to force people into group content, because they have decided that group content is the be all end all of mmorpgs even when the amounts of solo focused players keeps rising. Why so focused on getting people to play your group content when you could just create solo/solo que content that more people would experience and enjoy than the minority of high end pvers/pvpers.
What MMORPGs do you play that require you to do group content? I know it's an option in many but can't think of any that force it upon you.
New World does it more than most although they're walking some of that back.
The main quest line stops dead on its track until you do 3 group expeditions.
They have now changed the first 2 of those compulsory dungeon runs by providing a solo option for them.
The end game though is still pretty much all about grouping. No solo game play really after 60... not even alts.
"But they're walking some of it back" The game has been out two months and grouping is already being removed. So does anyone think in a year much grouping will be left? They could have made it so you walk to a quest area and just join a team of whoever is there, but the only solution solo casuals will accept is no grouping for any reason or any way whatsoever.
They have in my mind turned open world interactive games into a solo game in all but name. Wait you say what about PvP? Well they will be attacking that as well, does anyone here think the calls for endless dailies and the like to replace after 60 PvP have not already started?
Hence the 3 man group where 3 man group = very challenging solo content and challenging duo content.
any solo issues are null at that point. It can be done solo...if they aren't good enough to do it solo they can get up to two people to help them.
then you can sneak in larger groups by allowing multiple groups ( of three or up to three) in dungeons each with different objectives, but the same global objective.
Yet again and again you see developers trying to force people into group content, because they have decided that group content is the be all end all of mmorpgs even when the amounts of solo focused players keeps rising. Why so focused on getting people to play your group content when you could just create solo/solo que content that more people would experience and enjoy than the minority of high end pvers/pvpers.
What MMORPGs do you play that require you to do group content? I know it's an option in many but can't think of any that force it upon you.
New World does it more than most although they're walking some of that back.
The main quest line stops dead on its track until you do 3 group expeditions.
They have now changed the first 2 of those compulsory dungeon runs by providing a solo option for them.
The end game though is still pretty much all about grouping. No solo game play really after 60... not even alts.
"But they're walking some of it back" The game has been out two months and grouping is already being removed. So does anyone think in a year much grouping will be left? They could have made it so you walk to a quest area and just join a team of whoever is there, but the only solution solo casuals will accept is no grouping for any reason or any way whatsoever.
They have in my mind turned open world interactive games into a solo game in all but name. Wait you say what about PvP? Well they will be attacking that as well, does anyone here think the calls for endless dailies and the like to replace after 60 PvP have not already started?
It makes perfect sense that the level 25 and level 40 dungeon main quest steps now have an alternative way to progress the quest that does not require the dungeon. There is no level scaling for dungeons in the game and the bulk of the population is at 60. Finding groups for level 25 and 40 dungeons just ain't easy.
Having a grouping requirement for the main quest was a nice change of pace IMO, but I did those when the whole server was doing them so no problem whatsoever finding groups.
These changes are just facing the reality that new players at those quest steps are not having the same ease completing them that those who started all together did.
Dungeon scaling with appropriate loot drops at player level to incentivize level 60s doing them would be a better solution IMO but hey, we know how some people feel at the thought of scaled anything.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
the way i see it most dungeons are linear kill fests in most games. There are few distractions from this. Even in a group there is little need for interaction. Its just a path of destruction and collect phat l33t in most cases. You might have to play some dance dance revolution when you get to the boss but the formula is pretty stagnant.
rejection of this content is not really on the players but the developers lack of imagination.
a three man scalable group structure with the situational mitigation concept will solve alot of grouping vs soloing issues passively but they still need to build compelling content that goes beyond throwing just a bunch of enemies and loot in a cave to make it interesting for players.
If the developers wouldn't make dungeons so linear, I'd like dungeons a lot more. A proper cave system can have 4 or 5 ways to get to any specific location. Dungeons in games, frequently have only one. Give the players some group decisions that need to be made (do we go this way or that way).
I like the situational migration idea, @Rungar. Definitely compelling content would 'fix' a lot of games. That's all on the way games are designed, though.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
It was a lot of fun. especially when things went "tits up."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Challenging solo PVE content can break the will of the strongest player. When it's just you, and you have to face the fact that you just might not be good enough, that you aren't good enough, your desire to continue just might end. Bad for business.
Hey and lets face it the PVE type are pretty fragile.
PVPrs MASTER RACE
But the spawns get boosted with groups due to fast MOB deaths, so going Solo doesn't have that beefed up spawn.
But it's definitely fun to do what many others haven't.
On the flip side, though, for fun over challenge, I really enjoy going with guildmates or others that I know just as well. Even a new friend I just met can be fun.
Once upon a time....
there are some who want larger groups but I believe 3 is the right number for many reasons including the one above.
this also opens the door for sets of three to be operational in a dungeon so you might have certain dungeons with 3 or 4 groups of three operating independently but with a common goal. Other dungeons might only require one or two groups of three and this function can scale as long as the dungeons are designed properly.
Of course the game has to be designed for it. Tank, healer dps wont work with this setup. You need more well rounded characters and more dynamic gameplay.
A few games have addressed this issue.
GW2, Open World Events, mainly world bosses, would scale up by the number of people around them, this means, if 10 people showed up to kill Shadow Beast, it would scale to 10 people, if 100 people showed up, it would scale to be a fight for 100 people.
DDO: The Dungeons are Scaled by Both, Difficulty, and Party Size. This means that a if a party of 6 people went into a Hard Dungeon, it would be harder than if 3 people went in.
They also have mechanics in place that can make a dungeon requite 2 or more people, that is not all about DPS, the easiest examples I can give, is pulling two levers that are far apart from each other, and you have like 3 seconds to pull both of them, this cannot be done solo.
Personally, my belief here, based on my sampling, is that the people that often want forced group content, or content that requires a group, are often people that play support roles and want to be either carried because of it, or want to use their support role classification to get them into what is raid content.
Personally I loved the way GW2 has a system set up where players could work together, without needing to be in a formal group, with Bronze, Silver, and Gold level rewards, that really made for a beautiful organic nature to their open world content.
As you well know though FFXIV needs you to play in groups throughout the game but like I said you can get your weapon upgrade in a series of long steps. However not very sure if this is salient as you need to group for a lot of the other content, you won't even be able to proceed with the main story quest without grouping.
I am unsure what has happened over the years but recently I went to check on my old classic server and had a look at my old toons and to my horror I found the server on Horde side completely dead. Nothing I mean not even one item was on the AH.
Yes one can solo in WoW classic and probably you can level on quest gear but truly not even having some interaction in the AH is pretty brutal. One can object to having to group but not seeing anyone in an MMORPG is pretty sad. I think the recent Season of Mastery has totally sunk the population on the old classic servers.
This begs the question on whether the monthly sub is the reason for this desolation as the private servers seem to still continue but the official servers have lost their population. People say the servers were dead before the arrival of the ill advised and executed Season of Mastery or did it actually hasten the demise of these servers. Blizzard seems very sanguine and not inclined to help the servers aside from some token transfers have done nothing to help the servers. One server had 10 people on Horde side in Hydraxian Waterlord. What a disgrace!
So grouping isn't as draconian as it was in Everquest as has been pointed out here. Most games allow you to progress to end game without even grouping once. To even allow end game gear made available to non grouping individuals seems a bit too much merely because than no one would even bother to group because of the hassle of trying to get people to be free when you are to do the content. Of course it nice for the person who wants to solo and get great gear but what about the people that do want to group. When you make it no longer a requirement it will spell doom for any grouping overall because human beings always take the easy way out. There is no two ways about that. It will end all grouping and that is a very bad thing for an MMORPG if it is looking for longevity.
The MMORPG genre has possibly been effected by this more than any other genre, there are templates seen as working and you leave them at your peril. This effects everything from having an auction house to how important group play is. The problem with trying to accommodate everyone is some gameplay styles have a detrimental effect on each other, PvE/PvP is the classic example of that.
When you said "FFXIV is even going further with their trust system to allow people to do certain instances solo if they choose for whatever reason", that shows how much the 'casual solo player' is the one who designers have come to make these games for. Even a grouping MMO like FFXIV has to cave in and slowly become an all solo game. There are a lot more "Raphies" on their forums and they have pushed the solo casual agenda that has pushed MMORPG's to this point. There is no diversity, there is only one template to rule them all.
Now don't think I just point my finger at the casuals, remember I mentioned designers wanting to increase their player base? They leapt on the chance to make their new MMOs (and change their current ones) more solo player friendly. This desire for more and more players has led us through a number of iterations until we reach making MMOs 'mobile player friendly'. It has resulted in many more players and turned the MMORPG genre into some sort of Blob that hardly inspires as it once did; but the profits are bigger so designers will not change direction.
rejection of this content is not really on the players but the developers lack of imagination.
a three man scalable group structure with the situational mitigation concept will solve alot of grouping vs soloing issues passively but they still need to build compelling content that goes beyond throwing just a bunch of enemies and loot in a cave to make it interesting for players.
There are many forms of gameplay that could have more interaction, one I have seen had small teams competing dungeon objectives with the help of the other team, I think this was two four man groups which were part of the same eight man "group". Little design looks to complement interaction though, so we have little interaction.
Mere interaction is all we have these days. People just don't bother to actually get to know the people they group with because they are treated like NPCs for all intents and purposes. One of the reasons I try to find good guilds over finding groups lacking any meaningful interaction is for this reason. I also am not blaming people for not talking. They may be shy or afraid of holding up the group. I for one cannot type and play and someone will die if I try to do both as a healer.
My hesitancy these days come from my advancing age and lack of confidence in doing well in groups and not because of my hatred of grouping.
You are right though, dungeons do not lend themselves to interaction, the best way to encourage interaction I have heard of is the "resting" system in SWG, where you sought a Minstrel (?) to handle your combat fatigue. Imagine getting fatigue for any activity, more for combat, less like crafting and once it starts to effect your abilities having to go to a tavern or the like to hear music. How about more rest for those who sit down and have a drink or unwind with a dance? That's what I would do to create a hub of interaction.
radial design resolves this problem to some extent because you start in a central hub and activities stem from the hub. You need to decide who goes where, who does what task, who is best suited for tougher tasks etc, when to split your forces. This opens the door for more dynamic gameplay such as using stealth, drawing enemies away, traps and puzzles, division of labor, multiple objectives and global objectives. etc.
the trash-->miniboss-->trash--->boss model is played out and lame.
The main quest line stops dead on its track until you do 3 group expeditions.
They have now changed the first 2 of those compulsory dungeon runs by providing a solo option for them.
The end game though is still pretty much all about grouping. No solo game play really after 60... not even alts.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They have in my mind turned open world interactive games into a solo game in all but name. Wait you say what about PvP? Well they will be attacking that as well, does anyone here think the calls for endless dailies and the like to replace after 60 PvP have not already started?
any solo issues are null at that point. It can be done solo...if they aren't good enough to do it solo they can get up to two people to help them.
then you can sneak in larger groups by allowing multiple groups ( of three or up to three) in dungeons each with different objectives, but the same global objective.
Having a grouping requirement for the main quest was a nice change of pace IMO, but I did those when the whole server was doing them so no problem whatsoever finding groups.
These changes are just facing the reality that new players at those quest steps are not having the same ease completing them that those who started all together did.
Dungeon scaling with appropriate loot drops at player level to incentivize level 60s doing them would be a better solution IMO but hey, we know how some people feel at the thought of scaled anything.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.