The original EQ1 was a forced grouping extremist. There's a good reason why the balanced WoW model had such a huge success.
Only a few special cases want to group all the time when playing a game. The vast majority wants to be able to select their activity depending on the time they have at hand for their actual play session. There's no point in joining a dungeon group if you only have a 30 minute play window before dinner, yet one should still be able to progress in some way during that window in a well designed game.
Early games had utterly bad design flaws catering only the most "no life" players, like corpse runs, massive XP loss on death. Of course, back then, all those "no life" kids were patting each other on the back about how they were superior to others because they were going through all the grinds those old games were offering in guise of content.
WoW was a revolution, telling the "no life" that while they had a place (in their basement, bragging about their "world first" to those who want to listen to them), the majority was players who wanted to be able to log into a MMORPG and be able to "DO SOMETHING" and "PROGRESS", without automatically having to spend 1 hours to find the perfect group before.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
What MMORPGs should have is lots of meaningful content that caters to a variety of different play styles.
Given unlimited resources and time I would say sure, but both of those are limited today.
The most successful MMOs that draw large crowds year after year, and turn a good profit do just that. It's the ulltra-focused, niche ones that don't do very well at all.
Maybe studios shouldn't try to do MMOs unless they're willing and able to do the whole thing? Just a thought.
May as well jump in here
In a business sense, for sure. That is the bar MMORPGs are measured, these days. Are they good or bad or mediocre games? That's up to each individual player.
A quick look will show that some features are not compatible. PvP and PvE can co-exist, but neither group is happy. In order to try, something has to give like "limits on PvP", either a flag system, PvP areas or realms, or "safe zones." In order to entice PvE players into PvP areas, you need to make those areas "worth something", be it resources or "buffs." That's one example.
Look at other aspects like mob grinding or quests. Not too compatible, though you can certainly have both in one game. Even mob drops can figure in. Do they drop crafting resources or sell-able trash? What do they players want? Are "magic items" easy drops or crafted? I'm just saying that some aspects of an MMO may be incompatible.
It's like a pie. There is only so much one can do. You can't add more to the pie to make the slices bigger. So now you have decide who gets the bigger or biggest slice. In end, why not make another pie?
The problem is that "money comes first", so MMOs need to entice as many players as possible in order to maximize profits. The best way is make them free. Then the "spendy" players can support the "non-spendy" ones. Of course, the goal is to get everyone paying something.
Again, I know that numbers mean a lot, more than just money. A nice sized player base helps everyone. That's why so many MMOs try to please everyone. I still advocate for smaller, more focused MMORPGs
I hope I'm making sense.
Sorry I'm so late here, and hopefully I am not repeating a later post by someone else
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Casuals and there solo attitudes has done unrepairable damage to the MMO genre ..
I see it the other way around (as has been said by others). The game designs have ruined the player's social behavior. And they did it by forcing the most unsocial form of socializing, "need and dump" in an otherwise divided space.
I see it more of being a spiral death trap with both players and designs driving the genre towards the bottom, sort of like this model
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Casuals and there solo attitudes has done unrepairable damage to the MMO genre ..
I see it the other way around (as has been said by others). The game designs have ruined the player's social behavior. And they did it by forcing the most unsocial form of socializing, "need and dump" in an otherwise divided space.
I see it more of being a spiral death trap with both players and designs driving the genre towards the bottom, sort of like this model
He's right, if I'm understanding him properly.
Game design went more and more towards a "me me me" design, and the "me" being totally anonymous. Back in UO, AC1 or even WoW Vanilla, one knew everyone worth knowing on his server. In all those games, you had well known crafters in each specialty you could trust with your gold without any doubt. Nowadays, all games (including WoW) are mostly tuned towards multi server, multi language communities, that focus on doing things done and then never seeing each other again. Sometimes, you can't even understand the language of the people you're playing with, but who cares ?
Maybe NW was right with their 2000 player servers (just like it was in the 2000s, neither UO nor EQ1 nor AC1 did support more than that, much less actually). Smaller, tight communities.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
To me, the genre should have always been about working with others to take down monsters we would never be able to handle alone....Kinda like the farmers all uniting with their pitchforks to go take down the Troll in the cave.....I never saw it as we were superheroes that could do anything...i liked to think of it as I had minor strengths (and weaknesses) but needed otehrs help in defeating strong foes.....imo they ruined the genre by making it so solo friendly and by making players so powerful...That wasnt what it was meant to be.
I agree, but I wanted to ad my thoughts
I want solo content and activities. I'd hate to have to group up to craft. I see combat as the only place where groups are needed
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The original EQ1 was a forced grouping extremist. There's a good reason why the balanced WoW model had such a huge success.
Only a few special cases want to group all the time when playing a game. The vast majority wants to be able to select their activity depending on the time they have at hand for their actual play session. There's no point in joining a dungeon group if you only have a 30 minute play window before dinner, yet one should still be able to progress in some way during that window in a well designed game.
Early games had utterly bad design flaws catering only the most "no life" players, like corpse runs, massive XP loss on death. Of course, back then, all those "no life" kids were patting each other on the back about how they were superior to others because they were going through all the grinds those old games were offering in guise of content.
WoW was a revolution, telling the "no life" that while they had a place (in their basement, bragging about their "world first" to those who want to listen to them), the majority was players who wanted to be able to log into a MMORPG and be able to "DO SOMETHING" and "PROGRESS", without automatically having to spend 1 hours to find the perfect group before.
I basically agree with you here, sans the "no lifers" name calling. They may have been just that, but "dedicated" also works as a descriptor
I'm certainly not the same player I was 20 years ago when I got into EQ1. I'm certainly not physically able to sit at my computer desk for weekends at a time. Today's MMOs just don't grab my interest anymore, either.
Most of all, I want to be able play when I decide I want to play, which was my main complaint with EQ1. Even back then pick up groups could fun. Today's "social society" make me now wanting to limit my interactions with others
It would be nice if everyone everyone could find an MMO to play, but business won't allow it.
I yearn for the days when MMORPGs first appeared and there was no "formulaic design" to go off of, except maybe the old D&D RPG aspect (fight - level - fight some more - level - etc).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I mean why go into a genre that doesn't fit your play style and expect them to cater to you? I get the game might sound cool or look good but if you don't like that type of game then...?
Because I enjoy the gameplay?
Because I enjoy beating others in dps meters, because I enjoy silly auction house wars, because I know beating a script is not an achievement and thus only find pvp kills to be satisfying.
All those require other players to exist yet no socialization is needed.
I will ask the question I have been asking from the start.
If this group based genre when introduced to reality is ended up played mostly by people with the solo mindset, dont you have to admit the game might actually be more for solo mindset people rather than group people?
I have two major points in my favor
1) High end organized content is always done by a minority.
2) Solo que proved to be a success by getting a ton of people in content they wouldnt otherwise do because socialization is an OBSTACLE.
If anything, it looks like players want to do content but they just dont if they are forced to socialize, looks like the forced grouping design is not popular, yet developers keep trying to force it down on everyone only to have to change direction quickly to survive because people dont stay in games that force them to do things they dont enjoy.
It's a multiplayer online game. If you don't want to group with people, you're playing the wrong genre of game..
I would argue the exact opposite
Just like economic
theory that might make sense in theory but when implemented in reality it's a disaster, so does MMORPG forced grouping sound good in theory, but
reality and many years of MMORPGs realizing people arent doing group
content if they are forced to socialize have proven that most people
want to avoid socialization.
That is why solo ques have been such a giant
success in putting people into group content, into the work many devs
went through that they wouldnt otherwise experience if they were forced to
socialize, that is why the pre LFG era is dead and long gone because many have started realizing, people wont do your group content you worked on if they have to socialize, they ll never touch it or quit.
I get that you like grouping, the market though prefers systems that eliminate socialization, and the hardcore crowd has never managed to keep a game alive because mmorpgs are sustained by casuals.
i dont blame people who like to solo or casuals considering pretty much everyone likes to solo to some degree.
for instance lazy developer makes a "groupfinder" that randomly matches people based off of usually weak criteria.
You
dont need a groupfinder in a mmo. A npc guild with achievement based
chats is a targeted group finder, if you make a guild for every
activity.
just join the guild, and you will be naturally paired with people of your ability because its achievement based.
Do you not believe the solo que group finder that requires social
interaction helped a ton more people to get into content they wouldnt
otherwise do?
Do you remember the pre LFG era? Where people had to talk with others to make a group just to do a dungeon?
Why
do you think that era is long gone, if it worked so great why did they
have to invent the solo que so people can actually experience the hard
work put into all that group content many wouldnt touch because it
required a group, and there was no way to get a group without social
interaction.
The demand clearly is for solo
que and the removal of social interaction in group content. Because what you value, it seems most people see as an obstacle, probably because we
play games for the gameplay and fun, not to be forced to do things we
dont enjoy.
Why do you think the
current most successful mmorpg ff14 can be finished by never talking to a
single person and you go through a ton of group boss fights and
encounters, you might like socialization and even find it important, the
market does not though, it wants solo ques because people see
socialization as an OBSTACLE, that some will quit over.
1) High end organized content is always done by a minority.
2) Solo que proved to be a success by getting a ton of people in content they wouldnt otherwise do because socialization is an OBSTACLE.
You continue to use popularity as some kind of yardstick for what EVERY game should be. This is the flaw in your argument.
Otherwise we should only have McDonalds restaurants and Superhero movies. Anything else is apparently a failure.
Yes, if going for the largest target audience is the purpose then developers should just create singleplayer games that have a lobby overlay to allow "interaction" for chatting or some other items. But if every game was like that, none would stand out.
Instead, SOME games should be like that... and SOME games should target a smaller niche.
As soon as you claim that ALL games should be X, Y or Z because that is more popular... you have gone off track.
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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Group finder is a disaster for these games. People want to group with people of similar skill and achievement and this is very reasonable whether your elitez or a noob.
unfortunately group finders are not that good at determining what your skill level truly is. It also promotes these lazy ass linear dungeons where there is no need or incentive to talk to anyone.
you need a dynamic player driven method that brings similar skilled players together naturally, regardless of the activity. it could be farming, or dungeons, crafting, or something else.
the is the beauty of the npc guild with achievement based chat functions. It does all the hard work of a group finder passively. Its very low tech and very simple with no massive overhead like these groupfinders.
you just have to let the players take the final step and make the final decision on forming a group.
If your gonna use these shitty bolt on fixes like group finders, you might as well play a single player game with bots as your comrades. MMo's require integrated solutions. The fact that were not seeing them is just more proof the genre is dead.
I will ask the question I have been asking from the start.
If this group based genre when introduced to reality is ended up played mostly by people with the solo mindset, dont you have to admit the game might actually be more for solo mindset people rather than group people?
I just find it funny you are saying SOLO is dominating the MMO market, but then complaining that all the most popular MMO's are forced grouping games. Doesn't that seem to be in contradiction to your hypothesis?
Maybe you should be asking, why do solo friendly MMO's perform so badly? Why don't solo players support solo friendly MMO's? Is there even a market for solo friendly MMO's?
When MMO's were most popular they were massively group friendly/required. I would make the argument that ever since MMO's have pushed towards more solo friendly, their subs have declined dramatically.
Group finder is a disaster for these games. People want to group with people of similar skill and achievement and this is very reasonable whether your elitez or a noob.
unfortunately group finders are not that good at determining what your skill level truly is.
you need a dynamic player driven method that brings similar skilled players together naturally, regardless of the activity. it could be farming, or dungeons, crafting, or something else.
the is the beauty of the npc guild with achievement based chat functions. It does all the hard work of a group finder passively. Its very low tech and very simple with no massive overhead like these groupfinders.
you just have to let the players take the final step and make the final decision on forming a group.
If your gonna use these shitty bolt on fixes like group finders, you might as well play a single player game with bots as your comrades. MMo's require integrated solutions. The fact that were not seeing them is just more proof the genre is dead.
Do they? Cause I would argue they want to group because they want the reward that is behind X dungeon or to progress the story, that would be the preliminary drive here.
Especially considering most such content is extremely easy so it doesnt matter if you are a group of 4 noobs or 4 elites, you can still complete that group content, the 4 elitez will just breeze through it, even a single good player often can carry small groups.
I would understand your argument if we are talking about solo queing into high end group content but that is rarely ever the case, it is actually the case in FF14 JP datacenter where people do extremes via duty finder, it was quite a fun experience but that is the exception, not the rule since almost always the high end group content with best rewards cant just be qued into, you have to be forced to deal with socialization.
Again I agree about group finders not being great at determining skill levels, and imo that is something that could be fixed if enough data of the player's performance is collected from all relevant areas to include in the process, I honestly want such a thing to be done especially for random solo que pvp but this isnt really the subject of this conversation.
The problem is you seem to be doing exactly what I am saying, you keep trying to invent ways to get people to socialize when in the first place socialization is the problem, you keep saying how maybe if we did this, people would socialize and like it rather than designing around what we know people enjoy, you are designing what you BELIEVE people would enjoy and that has often proven to be false.
Mmorpgs didnt start with linear dungeon design as the default, they concluded there because people dont want to socialize, they just want to login in, get into content and enjoy the gameplay of murdering things up to the final boss and get rewarded, not talk or chat with others.
A great example for this would be WoW's m+ pug scene, since the 2nd best rewards are locked behind m+ people are forced to make groups, since most of us dont like socializing nobody talks, apply for group, get accepted, maybe say a "hi" at most.
Even though at high levels you need good coordination since there's multiple casts and mobs and only some can be interrupted/cced, making it require coordination and strategy, because people dont enjoy socialization they dont bother planning ahead or talking about those spots, resulting often in everyone doing what they believe is the right play which sometimes works(That is why solo que for group content has very different skillset requirement such as real time reactions and planning than organized groups), sometimes is a complete disaster which results in the key being dead and everyone leaving sometimes without even saying anything, sometimes someone just rages.
This type of content incentivizes socialization, coordination and strategy heavily, guess what? Because just want the bloody rewards and try to get them with as little socialization as possible even if it means half the runs are a disaster, that is how big of a problem socialization is.
And it is not about the community being bad, I played ff14 with an incredibly nice community and most still never bothered talking cuz we are not here to make friends and socialize, we are here to enjoy the GAMEPLAY.
The fact that were not seeing them is just more proof the genre is dead.
The fact that FF14 is thriving right now kinda suggests the opposite, unless you are talking about more group focused mmorpgs in which case I would agree, there simply isnt enough people who enjoy serious organizing group and socializing to sustain them as projects it seems.
You continue to use popularity as some kind of yardstick for what EVERY game should be. This is the flaw in your argument.
That is absolutely an argument you can make, though the rest is just a slippery slope argument, nobody said only one kind of thing can exist and everything else shouldnt because they are 5% less successful.
You can absolutely argue that because something isnt popular doesnt mean it isnt enjoyed by some and shouldnt be made. Hell you can even argue what you like is the right thing, but the thing is you have to provide actual benefits rather than "I personally enjoy X".
But at what point do you admit what you like simply isnt popular enough to survive because there is simply not enough support to sustain as big of a project as an mmorpg?
Many hardcore mmorpgs were tried throughout the years, they either changed their design to satisfy the more casual/solo mindset to survive, or they are barely hanging by or they simply died because hardcore fans are just never enough to financially support such projects.
I am arguing from the side of popularity because it happens to be the side I enjoy, and for once I like what most people like and can see why they like it, and considering the capitalistic world we live in cares about profit above all else, it stands to reason that developers should avoid forcing outdated design philosophies just because they like and want to push socialization and instead should focus on designing based on what we already know people enjoy and simply perfect that, instead of having to learn the same lesson again and again, that majority of people see socialization as an obstacle to their fun gameplay and will not do content if solo que is not a thing even though they WANT the rewards and to try out that content, solo que proved that, the desire for the rewards is there, that desire is simply not as big as the obstacle of socialization.
Though technically a project can still be profitable, just not as profitable as some corporations would like thus it gets the axe, but that is a capitalism problem, not a design one.
I'm still amazed how non-mmorpg players are trying to embrace this particular genre to themselves only. But i understand it completely. Yes, i do. I love Doom games and i play them as a pacifist. That's right, no shots fired at all. It's so last season to gather ammo and shoot with guns. I and my friends /hug all demons. We die a lot but that's so much fun and the demons are so cool.
We all need to be more open to the the games. So many mindsets and styles to play. I pay as much as the next guy, so i want content i can enjoy.
PS. I don't have a driving license but i love Colin McRae games. Any chance i could play them as a pedestrian?
I just find it funny you are saying SOLO is dominating the MMO market, but then complaining that all the most popular MMO's are forced grouping games. Doesn't that seem to be in contradiction to your hypothesis?
Yes the contradiction is my point, solo mindset dominates the mmorpg market, yet we see developers again and again push for forced grouping and socialization which is contrary to what most people seem to want to do, and then be surprised when they are forced to change their grouped focus design to be more solo friendly, *insert surprised pikachu face*.
It is like they are repeating the same mistake again and again simply because they have an outdated design philosophy that puts grouping and socialization in mmorpgs on a pedestal, even though the success of things such as solo que suggests socialization is an OBSTACLE, not something great or desired by most people who plays mmorpgs.
And if you didnt read my previous posts, I was very clear that solo mindset includes the 0 socialization needed solo que group content, which if you ve noticed, is what the currently most successful mmorpg in the market has, you can do the entire story and the majority of the game without ever talking to anyone, they even allow everyone reach max power via casual non l33t content such as zadnor, legendary items and alliance solo que raid currency.
Meanwhile WoW who still has this outdated high end group focused design and treats casuals like 4th class citizens by giving them pretty much garbage rewards is dying fast because they increased the division between casual rewards and high end rewards further in their latest xpac, thinking casuals are gonna stay subbed for silly mogs and mounts because they honestly unironically believe casuals only care about outfits and mounts, nothing else, which kinda shows how out of touch certain hardcore people can be with the majority of a playerbase.
I do agree a growing solo community does need to be rewarded and there is no reason both communities can't enjoy their game space.
I agree, but when developers put the best rewards behind the competitive group content and give inferior and sometimes outright trash rewards to the casual community, that divide becomes very visible and clearly part of the outdated design that must go.
I play solo and big team events. I have found gem MMOs that fit my play style well. Currently, ESO I am earning and making Best in slot solo. Sure there are still things you need locked behind things like group dungeons. But with companions added, I got my first monster helm solo for a archer build I made.
GW2 also does this well. Big reason its not a gear based game. Everyone can earn the best in slot.
SWG also being a crafting game was great for soloer. There are server still running that game if that what your looking for.
Playing solo completely in some MMOs is coming to grips, I don't need best in slot. For the solo content I'm running I have no need. You can never expect team based player to not be rewarded for what they do. Not every MMO should reward solo nearly as well as teamed content. But there are games that do or almost do. Albion maybe another good fit for you.
Do they? Cause I would argue they want to group because they want the reward that is behind X dungeon or to progress the story, that would be the preliminary drive here.
Especially considering most such content is extremely easy so it doesnt matter if you are a group of 4 noobs or 4 elites, you can still complete that group content, the 4 elitez will just breeze through it, even a single good player often can carry small groups.
I would understand your argument if we are talking about solo queing into high end group content but that is rarely ever the case, it is actually the case in FF14 JP datacenter where people do extremes via duty finder, it was quite a fun experience but that is the exception, not the rule since almost always the high end group content with best rewards cant just be qued into, you have to be forced to deal with socialization.
Again I agree about group finders not being great at determining skill levels, and imo that is something that could be fixed if enough data of the player's performance is collected from all relevant areas to include in the process, I honestly want such a thing to be done especially for random solo que pvp but this isnt really the subject of this conversation.
The problem is you seem to be doing exactly what I am saying, you keep trying to invent ways to get people to socialize when in the first place socialization is the problem, you keep saying how maybe if we did this, people would socialize and like it rather than designing around what we know people enjoy, you are designing what you BELIEVE people would enjoy and that has often proven to be false.
Mmorpgs didnt start with linear dungeon design as the default, they concluded there because people dont want to socialize, they just want to login in, get into content and enjoy the gameplay of murdering things up to the final boss and get rewarded, not talk or chat with others.
A great example for this would be WoW's m+ pug scene, since the 2nd best rewards are locked behind m+ people are forced to make groups, since most of us dont like socializing nobody talks, apply for group, get accepted, maybe say a "hi" at most.
Even though at high levels you need good coordination since there's multiple casts and mobs and only some can be interrupted/cced, making it require coordination and strategy, because people dont enjoy socialization they dont bother planning ahead or talking about those spots, resulting often in everyone doing what they believe is the right play which sometimes works(That is why solo que for group content has very different skillset requirement such as real time reactions and planning than organized groups), sometimes is a complete disaster which results in the key being dead and everyone leaving sometimes without even saying anything, sometimes someone just rages.
This type of content incentivizes socialization, coordination and strategy heavily, guess what? Because just want the bloody rewards and try to get them with as little socialization as possible even if it means half the runs are a disaster, that is how big of a problem socialization is.
And it is not about the community being bad, I played ff14 with an incredibly nice community and most still never bothered talking cuz we are not here to make friends and socialize, we are here to enjoy the GAMEPLAY.
The fact that were not seeing them is just more proof the genre is dead.
The fact that FF14 is thriving right now kinda suggests the opposite, unless you are talking about more group focused mmorpgs in which case I would agree, there simply isnt enough people who enjoy serious organizing group and socializing to sustain them as projects it seems.
You continue to use popularity as some kind of yardstick for what EVERY game should be. This is the flaw in your argument.
That is absolutely an argument you can make, though the rest is just a slippery slope argument, nobody said only one kind of thing can exist and everything else shouldnt because they are 5% less successful.
You can absolutely argue that because something isnt popular doesnt mean it isnt enjoyed by some and shouldnt be made. Hell you can even argue what you like is the right thing, but the thing is you have to provide actual benefits rather than "I personally enjoy X".
But at what point do you admit what you like simply isnt popular enough to survive because there is simply not enough support to sustain as big of a project as an mmorpg?
Many hardcore mmorpgs were tried throughout the years, they either changed their design to satisfy the more casual/solo mindset to survive, or they are barely hanging by or they simply died because hardcore fans are just never enough to financially support such projects.
I am arguing from the side of popularity because it happens to be the side I enjoy, and for once I like what most people like and can see why they like it, and considering the capitalistic world we live in cares about profit above all else, it stands to reason that developers should avoid forcing outdated design philosophies just because they like and want to push socialization and instead should focus on designing based on what we already know people enjoy and simply perfect that, instead of having to learn the same lesson again and again, that majority of people see socialization as an obstacle to their fun gameplay and will not do content if solo que is not a thing even though they WANT the rewards and to try out that content, solo que proved that, the desire for the rewards is there, that desire is simply not as big as the obstacle of socialization.
Though technically a project can still be profitable, just not as profitable as some corporations would like thus it gets the axe, but that is a capitalism problem, not a design one.
If you read what you wrote, you would have to agree that you are saying that developers should only cater to "the majority" who you feel wants to avoid "socialization". And again... I will say SOME developers should develop what you want and others should NOT. Just like Superhero movies make the most money, but if all movies were Superhero movies it would suck. We need those, Westerns, Sci-Fi, Romance, Drama, Comedies and all the rest.
Your argument is like saying "Why can't these studios learn that people prefer Superhero movies? Superhero movies make $1Quadrillion dollars. Why do they have to make Comedies that only make a measly $30Million"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If you read what you wrote, you would have to agree that you are saying that developers should only cater to "the majority" who you feel wants to avoid "socialization". And again... I will say SOME developers should develop what you want and others should NOT. Just like Superhero movies make the most money, but if all movies were Superhero movies it would suck. We need those, Westerns, Sci-Fi, Romance, Drama, Comedies and all the rest.
Your argument is like saying "Why can't these studios learn that people prefer Superhero movies? Superhero movies make $1Quadrillion dollars. Why do they have to make Comedies that only make a measly $30Million"
Because I understand what you are saying, doesnt meant I agree with it, there's a difference, especially since like I said you havent really given any reason other than your personal enjoyment of forced grouping design.
I also absolutely love a ton of systems with many options and huge tooltips that allow me to make fun specialized builds, that sadly is also not very popular based on the fact many just copy paste whatever a guide tells them is meta without caring about this ENTIRE RPG ELEMENT. Same can be said about open world hardcore full loot pvp, there's people who enjoy it but that just aint popular.
Would I play a small mmorpg that does that even if unpopular?
No, because even if I absolutely love that design, it lacks the MASSIVE part of mmo, if it is a tiny dead world with a couple of hundreds or thousands of players, it is not something to invest yourself long term because small mmos like that could get the axe at any moment and all your investment would have been pointless.
So now whenever we like it or not, we are forced to focus on what makes an MMORPG successful, and based on historical examples, it is not forced grouping and treating casuals as 2nd class citizens by only giving them very inferior rewards, it is eliminating obstacles like socialization, it is making content accessible, something that FF14 does beautifully and games like WoW do not, hence why one is thriving and the other is rotting.
If your argument was people should be allowed to make unpopular games then I agree, I never said ban forced grouping, just dont expect them to be successful or massive which is something vital for mmorpgs.
Riot is planning on a huge MMORPG that will attempt to shake the market, yet when the developers keep talking about raiding and other types of forced grouping it becomes clear, that this profit focused massive mmorpg is again lead by people who want to force grouping and this casual vs hardcore divide due to their outdated design philosophies rather than actual facts of what the players like, something that is a contradictory to the market.
Obviously nobody knows the details, but based on certain people like Ghostcrawler who cant even understand why many people play mmorpgs with a solo mindset, I am once again reminded of this contradiction, you have people who try to force their unpopular design philosophy on games that are developed to be massively successful.
That is a contradiction, that goes against the profit motive simply because the people in charge have a personal investment in forced grouping design that goes against that most casual solo players want in a massive and successful mmorpg.
Result being the game either changes to become more solo friendly to survive, which it will if it is made by a giant corporation that wants to make a massive success and profit, or it slowly dies or becomes irrelevant because it is no longer played by many people and is perceived as a dead mmo.
WoW would be a perfect example right now, it is dying and fast because it has followed this outdated design, all the changes the devs bring do nothing for the casual solo crowd so it isnt likely it will bounce back anytime soon because of it.
Comments
There's a good reason why the balanced WoW model had such a huge success.
Only a few special cases want to group all the time when playing a game. The vast majority wants to be able to select their activity depending on the time they have at hand for their actual play session. There's no point in joining a dungeon group if you only have a 30 minute play window before dinner, yet one should still be able to progress in some way during that window in a well designed game.
Early games had utterly bad design flaws catering only the most "no life" players, like corpse runs, massive XP loss on death. Of course, back then, all those "no life" kids were patting each other on the back about how they were superior to others because they were going through all the grinds those old games were offering in guise of content.
WoW was a revolution, telling the "no life" that while they had a place (in their basement, bragging about their "world first" to those who want to listen to them), the majority was players who wanted to be able to log into a MMORPG and be able to "DO SOMETHING" and "PROGRESS", without automatically having to spend 1 hours to find the perfect group before.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Just because you're "casual" doesn't mean the game has to be designed around you and your life.
You gamers these days are really weird and some strange mindset.
Does it mean you are grouping all the time ?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
He's right, if I'm understanding him properly.
Game design went more and more towards a "me me me" design, and the "me" being totally anonymous.
Back in UO, AC1 or even WoW Vanilla, one knew everyone worth knowing on his server. In all those games, you had well known crafters in each specialty you could trust with your gold without any doubt.
Nowadays, all games (including WoW) are mostly tuned towards multi server, multi language communities, that focus on doing things done and then never seeing each other again. Sometimes, you can't even understand the language of the people you're playing with, but who cares ?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Otherwise we should only have McDonalds restaurants and Superhero movies. Anything else is apparently a failure.
Yes, if going for the largest target audience is the purpose then developers should just create singleplayer games that have a lobby overlay to allow "interaction" for chatting or some other items. But if every game was like that, none would stand out.
Instead, SOME games should be like that... and SOME games should target a smaller niche.
As soon as you claim that ALL games should be X, Y or Z because that is more popular... you have gone off track.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
unfortunately group finders are not that good at determining what your skill level truly is. It also promotes these lazy ass linear dungeons where there is no need or incentive to talk to anyone.
you need a dynamic player driven method that brings similar skilled players together naturally, regardless of the activity. it could be farming, or dungeons, crafting, or something else.
the is the beauty of the npc guild with achievement based chat functions. It does all the hard work of a group finder passively. Its very low tech and very simple with no massive overhead like these groupfinders.
you just have to let the players take the final step and make the final decision on forming a group.
If your gonna use these shitty bolt on fixes like group finders, you might as well play a single player game with bots as your comrades. MMo's require integrated solutions. The fact that were not seeing them is just more proof the genre is dead.
I just find it funny you are saying SOLO is dominating the MMO market, but then complaining that all the most popular MMO's are forced grouping games. Doesn't that seem to be in contradiction to your hypothesis?
Maybe you should be asking, why do solo friendly MMO's perform so badly? Why don't solo players support solo friendly MMO's? Is there even a market for solo friendly MMO's?
When MMO's were most popular they were massively group friendly/required. I would make the argument that ever since MMO's have pushed towards more solo friendly, their subs have declined dramatically.
We all need to be more open to the the games. So many mindsets and styles to play. I pay as much as the next guy, so i want content i can enjoy.
PS. I don't have a driving license but i love Colin McRae games. Any chance i could play them as a pedestrian?
GW2 also does this well. Big reason its not a gear based game. Everyone can earn the best in slot.
SWG also being a crafting game was great for soloer. There are server still running that game if that what your looking for.
Playing solo completely in some MMOs is coming to grips, I don't need best in slot. For the solo content I'm running I have no need. You can never expect team based player to not be rewarded for what they do. Not every MMO should reward solo nearly as well as teamed content. But there are games that do or almost do. Albion maybe another good fit for you.
Your argument is like saying "Why can't these studios learn that people prefer Superhero movies? Superhero movies make $1Quadrillion dollars. Why do they have to make Comedies that only make a measly $30Million"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018