IP's Double Edged Swords?

laserit

Scot said:

laserit said:

We have to admit that the quality of the writing will have a tremendous effect on the fans acceptance of the material.

I have never spoken to a Tolkien fan who objected to the Elves turning up at Helms Deep, do it well and you will be forgiven. But some things may go beyond the pale no matter how well written. I am not sure how I ever would have accepted changing the looks and relative heights/body mass of two Dwarves just to set up a Dwarf/Elf romance no matter how good the writing.

I love you Scott

edit: remember Scott Hollywood couth hath no boundries

Tuor7

Scot said:
I have never spoken to a Tolkien fan who objected to the Elves turning up at Helms Deep, do it well and you will be forgiven. But some things may go beyond the pale no matter how well written. I am not sure how I ever would have accepted changing the looks and relative heights/body mass of two Dwarves just to set up a Dwarf/Elf romance no matter how good the writing.

Well, now you have.  Another unnecessary addition by Jackson that ignores established lore that the Men of Rohan were highly fearful of Lothlorian and of Elves in general. :P

Sovrath

Quizzical said:

A gaming IP moving to another game is commonly fine.  Trying to bring non-gaming IPs in to be the basis of a game is often trouble.  The problem is that any effort at trying to be faithful to the IP is not effort at making a good game.  If making a good game isn't your primary focus in game design, then you're unlikely to accidentally succeed at it.

That doesn't mean that all games based on non-gaming IPs are bad.  But it does mean that it's harder to make a game that is good and also faithful to an IP than it is to just make a good game.  And the latter is hard enough as it is.

I suppose that one could make a game that is nominally based on some IP without trying to be faithful to the IP.  But it would be really jarring for fans of the IP to see familiar characters acting in ways that are totally out of character.  That would defeat the point of licensing the IP.

hmmmm that would depend. Do you have any examples.

Why couldn't a game have characters that behaved exactly as in a book or movie? Unless you are saying that players would be playing these characters?

And even then there could be artificial limits on what specific characters could and could not do.

I think there's a line (and I'm not sure it's fine) between adapting a property to another medium and just outright changing things for the heck of it.

I find a lot of movies, shows, etc are changed because the director or producer wants a certain something so they use the excuse of "well you have to make changes for a different medium."

The only changes that need to happen are changes that allow the IP to exist within the new medium.

So if it's a movie then it's more show than tell. If it's a game then agency needs to be given to the players. But does that mean the players HAVE to play a character from that IP?

giantessfan

If something is based off an existing IP I always have lower expectations going in that it will not, or never, live up to the original piece of work. This way I am neither disappointed when I am right or I am extremely pleased when I am wrong (like The Witcher video game series).

If I enjoy an IP I am going to give it a shot. I am looking forward to Hogwarts Legacy this year though I am sure its not going to be that great of a game just because everyone is going to want something different out of a harry potter open world RPG. I want to more go to school and learn how to be a wizard or witch but I am sure its going to be more action oriented. 

Scot

Tuor7 said:

Scot said:
I have never spoken to a Tolkien fan who objected to the Elves turning up at Helms Deep, do it well and you will be forgiven. But some things may go beyond the pale no matter how well written. I am not sure how I ever would have accepted changing the looks and relative heights/body mass of two Dwarves just to set up a Dwarf/Elf romance no matter how good the writing.

Well, now you have.  Another unnecessary addition by Jackson that ignores established lore that the Men of Rohan were highly fearful of Lothlorian and of Elves in general. :P

"Men" saw Lothlorian as less welcoming than Rivendell, those who knew much of Elves that is. But if they turn up and join your side in battle, that does put a rather new light on things.

laserit

Sovrath said:

Quizzical said:

A gaming IP moving to another game is commonly fine.  Trying to bring non-gaming IPs in to be the basis of a game is often trouble.  The problem is that any effort at trying to be faithful to the IP is not effort at making a good game.  If making a good game isn't your primary focus in game design, then you're unlikely to accidentally succeed at it.

That doesn't mean that all games based on non-gaming IPs are bad.  But it does mean that it's harder to make a game that is good and also faithful to an IP than it is to just make a good game.  And the latter is hard enough as it is.

I suppose that one could make a game that is nominally based on some IP without trying to be faithful to the IP.  But it would be really jarring for fans of the IP to see familiar characters acting in ways that are totally out of character.  That would defeat the point of licensing the IP.

hmmmm that would depend. Do you have any examples.

Why couldn't a game have characters that behaved exactly as in a book or movie? Unless you are saying that players would be playing these characters?

And even then there could be artificial limits on what specific characters could and could not do.

I think there's a line (and I'm not sure it's fine) between adapting a property to another medium and just outright changing things for the heck of it.

I find a lot of movies, shows, etc are changed because the director or producer wants a certain something so they use the excuse of "well you have to make changes for a different medium."

The only changes that need to happen are changes that allow the IP to exist within the new medium.

So if it's a movie then it's more show than tell. If it's a game then agency needs to be given to the players. But does that mean the players HAVE to play a character from that IP?

I believe if you create an immersive virtual world. One that is good enough to distract you. I believe that you would see many of these issues organically disappear.

If player keep seeing and hearing things they like, they have less time to think about things they don't like.

Lets take that philosophy from sales and put it towards RPG design

Mendel

laserit said:

Sovrath said:

Quizzical said:

A gaming IP moving to another game is commonly fine.  Trying to bring non-gaming IPs in to be the basis of a game is often trouble.  The problem is that any effort at trying to be faithful to the IP is not effort at making a good game.  If making a good game isn't your primary focus in game design, then you're unlikely to accidentally succeed at it.

That doesn't mean that all games based on non-gaming IPs are bad.  But it does mean that it's harder to make a game that is good and also faithful to an IP than it is to just make a good game.  And the latter is hard enough as it is.

I suppose that one could make a game that is nominally based on some IP without trying to be faithful to the IP.  But it would be really jarring for fans of the IP to see familiar characters acting in ways that are totally out of character.  That would defeat the point of licensing the IP.

hmmmm that would depend. Do you have any examples.

Why couldn't a game have characters that behaved exactly as in a book or movie? Unless you are saying that players would be playing these characters?

And even then there could be artificial limits on what specific characters could and could not do.

I think there's a line (and I'm not sure it's fine) between adapting a property to another medium and just outright changing things for the heck of it.

I find a lot of movies, shows, etc are changed because the director or producer wants a certain something so they use the excuse of "well you have to make changes for a different medium."

The only changes that need to happen are changes that allow the IP to exist within the new medium.

So if it's a movie then it's more show than tell. If it's a game then agency needs to be given to the players. But does that mean the players HAVE to play a character from that IP?

I believe if you create an immersive virtual world. One that is good enough to distract you. I believe that you would see many of these issues organically disappear.

If player keep seeing and hearing things they like, they have less time to think about things they don't like.

Lets take that philosophy from sales and put it towards RPG design

Likewise, if you're always running from snakes, you won't notices problematic issues, either.

cameltosis

AlBQuirky said:

What are people's thoughts on IP usage?

I often see requests to see one IP jump to a different medium, be it gooks to games or books/games into movies/shows.

I see the double edged sword because I see IP usage as an attempt to garner fans of the original, yet this brings with it the fans' "expectations." These expectations many times will see it hard please most fans.

What are some IPs you've seen done well in other mediums, or IPs that have had good crossovers, like Smash Brothers bringing in multiple heroes from other games?

Personally, I am a big fan of using popular IPs in games. I have always found that if I already know the IP, then I get a lot more enjoyment out of the game and I tend to be more willing to overlook problems.

I don't think player expectations are really an issue. You just need to make sure that you manage those expectations properly. This means accurate marketing and interviews.

The biggest issue I have seen is changing mediums. What works well in a film, what gives the IP that "feeling" in a film, won't necessarily translate well into a game.

For example, Game of Thrones works extremely well in book and TV formats because it is heavily drama-based. Drama works when you have the time to express opinions and thoughts, whether that is expressed by words on a page or acting on the screen. Drama does not work well in games. We lack the animation quality to get across those emotions and players don't want to sit and read tons of text.

So, when switching mediums, you really need to adapt the IP to get the most out of the new medium. Whether the IP owner will let you or not is another matter. Use the parts of the IP that work well in the medium, and downplay the other stuff.

For example, a GoT RPG would never be able to replicate the good drama you see on TV, but you can lean into the world building, the different styles of combat and maybe some territory control stuff too. It wouldn't feel the same as what we already know, but that doesn't make it worse, just a different way to interact with the IP.

laserit

cameltosis said:

AlBQuirky said:

What are people's thoughts on IP usage?

I often see requests to see one IP jump to a different medium, be it gooks to games or books/games into movies/shows.

I see the double edged sword because I see IP usage as an attempt to garner fans of the original, yet this brings with it the fans' "expectations." These expectations many times will see it hard please most fans.

What are some IPs you've seen done well in other mediums, or IPs that have had good crossovers, like Smash Brothers bringing in multiple heroes from other games?

Personally, I am a big fan of using popular IPs in games. I have always found that if I already know the IP, then I get a lot more enjoyment out of the game and I tend to be more willing to overlook problems.

I don't think player expectations are really an issue. You just need to make sure that you manage those expectations properly. This means accurate marketing and interviews.

The biggest issue I have seen is changing mediums. What works well in a film, what gives the IP that "feeling" in a film, won't necessarily translate well into a game.

For example, Game of Thrones works extremely well in book and TV formats because it is heavily drama-based. Drama works when you have the time to express opinions and thoughts, whether that is expressed by words on a page or acting on the screen. Drama does not work well in games. We lack the animation quality to get across those emotions and players don't want to sit and read tons of text.

So, when switching mediums, you really need to adapt the IP to get the most out of the new medium. Whether the IP owner will let you or not is another matter. Use the parts of the IP that work well in the medium, and downplay the other stuff.

For example, a GoT RPG would never be able to replicate the good drama you see on TV, but you can lean into the world building, the different styles of combat and maybe some territory control stuff too. It wouldn't feel the same as what we already know, but that doesn't make it worse, just a different way to interact with the IP.

The great houses could be controlled by management or another means that our imaginations can come up with. The players could be the pawns in a great war.

The opportunities are endless imho.

We are only limited by our imaginations.....







and money

AlBQuirky

laserit said:

cameltosis said:

AlBQuirky said:

What are people's thoughts on IP usage?

I often see requests to see one IP jump to a different medium, be it gooks to games or books/games into movies/shows.

I see the double edged sword because I see IP usage as an attempt to garner fans of the original, yet this brings with it the fans' "expectations." These expectations many times will see it hard please most fans.

What are some IPs you've seen done well in other mediums, or IPs that have had good crossovers, like Smash Brothers bringing in multiple heroes from other games?

Personally, I am a big fan of using popular IPs in games. I have always found that if I already know the IP, then I get a lot more enjoyment out of the game and I tend to be more willing to overlook problems.

I don't think player expectations are really an issue. You just need to make sure that you manage those expectations properly. This means accurate marketing and interviews.

The biggest issue I have seen is changing mediums. What works well in a film, what gives the IP that "feeling" in a film, won't necessarily translate well into a game.

For example, Game of Thrones works extremely well in book and TV formats because it is heavily drama-based. Drama works when you have the time to express opinions and thoughts, whether that is expressed by words on a page or acting on the screen. Drama does not work well in games. We lack the animation quality to get across those emotions and players don't want to sit and read tons of text.

So, when switching mediums, you really need to adapt the IP to get the most out of the new medium. Whether the IP owner will let you or not is another matter. Use the parts of the IP that work well in the medium, and downplay the other stuff.

For example, a GoT RPG would never be able to replicate the good drama you see on TV, but you can lean into the world building, the different styles of combat and maybe some territory control stuff too. It wouldn't feel the same as what we already know, but that doesn't make it worse, just a different way to interact with the IP.

The great houses could be controlled by management or another means that our imaginations can come up with. The players could be the pawns in a great war.

The opportunities are endless imho.

We are only limited by our imaginations.....







and money

I actually first heard about The Game of Thrones from a board game.

I had a friend that had bought it and it is a fun romp with players choosing a faction (region) to play. Politics was a big part of the game play as well as army movement and attacking the other areas, all the while helping the northern kingdom defend "The Wall" against periodic upcoming wildling attacks. The Targareans were not represented by a player but did figure into the game as possible leaders and political figures. I then read the books, borrowed from the same friend, and loved them.

I've heard that a video game was made, but have no experience of it.

Cameltosis's point about "drama" is a great one. Video games do not do "drama" well. They mostly try to manufacture drama which usually seems to fall flat.

One medium crossing I often wonder about is "anime to live action." Anime is made to overemphasize aspects, be it characterizations, fighting, or scenery. This is totally lost on live actors in set pieces. Both mediums are great for telling stories and depicting drama yet they are so vastly different in how they portray them.

I'm kind of chuckling right now as I recall the last few times I've picked up The Song of Ice and Fire series (Game of Thrones) and every time I try to picture Ned Stark (wonderful description in the books) in my mind, Sean Bean overtakes the picture