<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
The "buddy systems" were another form of Scaling, if I recall right.
My problem with Scaling is that it's so fake.
I'll tell you a true story (yuk yuk).
I once was a 98 pound weakling on a beach. There was this really hot chick there that I wanted to impress. But there was also this Huge Monster Bully there who always kicked sand in my face and made me look bad to that hot chick.
Then one day I was reading a comic book, and saw an ad for these pills that would turn me into a Huge guy too. So I bought the pills, and when I went back to that beach I expected to be a huge guy and tough as that Monster Bully.
I looked in the mirror, and didn't see any change, but I was promised! Maybe it was just the mirror. So I went to the beach and hunted down that Monster Bully. I kicked sand in his face. We fought. And I won! I got the hot chick!
But afterwards, I saw a company rep from that pill company paying off both the Monster Bully and that hot chick, and they were all laughing.
THAT's Scaling. (And the hot chick still wouldn't go out with me.)
all scaling is, is an admission that D&D "levelling" is outdated. Its a transition period to inevitable skill collection and achievement based progression.
all scaling is, is an admission that D&D "levelling" is outdated. Its a transition period to inevitable skill collection and achievement based progression.
No, it means that they no longer want that system and had to think of another way to retrofit the system.
If you have players on board with D&D leveling then there is no problem. The problem is when you design a game using advancement and power through levels but then don't want it anymore.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
all scaling is, is an admission that D&D "levelling" is outdated. Its a transition period to inevitable skill collection and achievement based progression.
There are other RPG's that would say "hold your gameplay horses" we have something to offer that beats DnD. Let me just give one example Castle Falkenstein, which I mentioned recently, now that would be interesting to see in a MMO.
all scaling is, is an admission that D&D "levelling" is outdated. Its a transition period to inevitable skill collection and achievement based progression.
No, it means that they no longer want that system and had to think of another way to retrofit the system.
If you have players on board with D&D leveling then there is no problem. The problem is when you design a game using advancement and power through levels but then don't want it anymore.
And why is it that the Players don't want it anymore?
It's not because they are tired of it, it's a tried and true design for that sort of game. It's because it just doesn't work for a "massively" multiplayer game. D&D was designed for small groups of gamers, not a world full of fellow Players.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Plus, this can facilitate power leveling
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Plus, this can facilitate power leveling
In CoH from what I recall you only get what you would normally get for your level in spite of being in a higher level group and doing high level content. However I think many people got rid of the debt from dying by scaling down. It used to work like that. Someone correct me if my memory was not accurate.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Plus, this can facilitate power leveling
In CoH from what I recall you only get what you would normally get for your level in spite of being in a higher level group and doing high level content. However I think many people got rid of the debt from dying by scaling down. It used to work like that. Someone correct me if my memory was not accurate.
My experience was at Castle Crushbone's throne room. We had our party and the high level guild Druid was with us doing healing and crowd control as we methodically killed the mobs again and again. The key was not having a higher level character "within" the party, but rather outside of it helping
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Plus, this can facilitate power leveling
In CoH from what I recall you only get what you would normally get for your level in spite of being in a higher level group and doing high level content. However I think many people got rid of the debt from dying by scaling down. It used to work like that. Someone correct me if my memory was not accurate.
My experience was at Castle Crushbone's throne room. We had our party and the high level guild Druid was with us doing healing and crowd control as we methodically killed the mobs again and again. The key was not having a higher level character "within" the party, but rather outside of it helping
You would just have to tighten up the rules to make sure it was used fairly, but for sure a buddy system is a magnet for players "bending" the rules.
Comments
My problem with Scaling is that it's so fake.
I'll tell you a true story (yuk yuk).
I once was a 98 pound weakling on a beach. There was this really hot chick there that I wanted to impress. But there was also this Huge Monster Bully there who always kicked sand in my face and made me look bad to that hot chick.
Then one day I was reading a comic book, and saw an ad for these pills that would turn me into a Huge guy too. So I bought the pills, and when I went back to that beach I expected to be a huge guy and tough as that Monster Bully.
I looked in the mirror, and didn't see any change, but I was promised! Maybe it was just the mirror.
So I went to the beach and hunted down that Monster Bully.
I kicked sand in his face.
We fought.
And I won!
I got the hot chick!
But afterwards, I saw a company rep from that pill company paying off both the Monster Bully and that hot chick, and they were all laughing.
THAT's Scaling.
(And the hot chick still wouldn't go out with me.)
Once upon a time....
If you have players on board with D&D leveling then there is no problem. The problem is when you design a game using advancement and power through levels but then don't want it anymore.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's not because they are tired of it, it's a tried and true design for that sort of game. It's because it just doesn't work for a "massively" multiplayer game. D&D was designed for small groups of gamers, not a world full of fellow Players.
Once upon a time....
Plus, this can facilitate power leveling
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
My experience was at Castle Crushbone's throne room. We had our party and the high level guild Druid was with us doing healing and crowd control as we methodically killed the mobs again and again. The key was not having a higher level character "within" the party, but rather outside of it helping
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR