No one said that because that's not what a Karen is though, just like not not all gamers that complain are Karens. People can complain because of truly good reasons.
Petty ignorance is not one of them.
Youre the one having 0 arguments and being absolutely ignorant to horrendous mismanagement and lies said by CIG, belittleling any criticism to 'shouts from entitled Karens'. You called the new roadmap disaster a 'usual BS drama' - how is that constructive? Seriously how can you even look in the mirror with such a disgusting attitude
I guess youre just absolutely unable of any kind of selfreflection
Simple question. Explain to me the original quote by Erin Roberts when this new roadmap was made:
"You know, with this release of the roadmap, I have very much made sure
and asked the team that what we put in there is what we can achieve with
what we have right now....you know last time, we had if we feel we can
do this we put it in the roadmap, this time it's what we are pretty
damned sure we can do."
Now they removed these features from roadmap to 3.17
Player Interaction Experience
FPS Radar & Scanning (already moved from Alpha 3.14)
Hacking - Tech (already moved from Alpha 3.14)
EVA T2
Zero G Push & Pull (already moved from Alpha 3.15)
Persistent Hangars
Hangar Manager App
Salvage (already moved from Alpha 3.2)
The only thing that is on course for 3.17 NOW is a coffee vendor that wasnt originaly in
Explain to me why, when CIG STATED with fanfares that the roadmap will contain only things they ARE PRETTY DAMNED SURE THEY CAN DO, they managed to remove every feature from a release that will happen in 6 months? Did Erin Roberts lied? Should I redefine the meaning of 'we are pretty damned sure' to 'absolutely not' to cater to CIG rhetoric?
Explain please. And if you even dare to say that I dont understand software development let me just state that Im a software engineer for 10 years now, 4 years as a project leader and if such a massive removal of features per release or delay of a feature over multiple releases would happen few times in a 5 year window, my ass would be fired immediately
Go, I want to hear the reasonable explanation of this
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I think there is an even stronger argument for waiting to buy until the product delivers what you want. It doesn't have to be crowd-funding or early access either. We have people here buying pre-launch packages for Lost Ark when they could wait a week or two, at the least, and get first hand feedback by reading player feedback or watching a few "let's play" videos. This is especially true with live service games which can change at any time without warning.
A decade ago it was an experiment, but when people now know better but are still enabling this behavior then who really is to blame? While I agree that these projects have failed, we have enabled them from the beginning and are still doing so. That's fine, but also why my lack of sympathy and deaf ears on complaints comes into play. Stop enabling them, or is it really that people prefer the meta game of enabling and then the subsequent speculation and pundit game that follows for years on end?
Not sure that example works considering there are over 1,000 reviews with confirmed Steam play time for the beta and it's received an Overwhelmingly Positive score on Steam. Many reviews have over 30 hours at the time of review, and the aggregate is 97% positive. Beyond even that, I've spotted multiple negative reviews that reviewed it that way mostly because they got upset about some localization changes.
In general, yes. Not sure it works with this particular title, though.
A decade ago it was an experiment, but when people now know better but are still enabling this behavior then who really is to blame? While I agree that these projects have failed, we have enabled them from the beginning and are still doing so. That's fine, but also why my lack of sympathy and deaf ears on complaints comes into play. Stop enabling them, or is it really that people prefer the meta game of enabling and then the subsequent speculation and pundit game that follows for years on end?
The blame ALWAYS falls on the person who is over-promising and under-delivering or outright scamming. Should people know better by now? Absolutely, but that does not dilute the liability here. Especially when the consumer is simply complaining that the seller did not do what they said they would do.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
No one said that because that's not what a Karen is though, just like not not all gamers that complain are Karens. People can complain because of truly good reasons.
Petty ignorance is not one of them.
Youre the one having 0 arguments and being absolutely ignorant to horrendous mismanagement and lies said by CIG, belittleling any criticism to 'shouts from entitled Karens'. You called the new roadmap disaster a 'usual BS drama' - how is that constructive? Seriously how can you even look in the mirror with such a disgusting attitude
I guess youre just absolutely unable of any kind of selfreflection
Simple question. Explain to me the original quote by Erin Roberts when this new roadmap was made:
"You know, with this release of the roadmap, I have very much made sure
and asked the team that what we put in there is what we can achieve with
what we have right now....you know last time, we had if we feel we can
do this we put it in the roadmap, this time it's what we are pretty
damned sure we can do."
Now they removed these features from roadmap to 3.17
Player Interaction Experience
FPS Radar & Scanning (already moved from Alpha 3.14)
Hacking - Tech (already moved from Alpha 3.14)
EVA T2
Zero G Push & Pull (already moved from Alpha 3.15)
Persistent Hangars
Hangar Manager App
Salvage (already moved from Alpha 3.2)
The only thing that is on course for 3.17 NOW is a coffee vendor that wasnt originaly in
Explain to me why, when CIG STATED with fanfares that the roadmap will contain only things they ARE PRETTY DAMNED SURE THEY CAN DO, they managed to remove every feature from a release that will happen in 6 months? Did Erin Roberts lied? Should I redefine the meaning of 'we are pretty damned sure' to 'absolutely not' to cater to CIG rhetoric?
Explain please. And if you even dare to say that I dont understand software development let me just state that Im a software engineer for 10 years now, 4 years as a project leader and if such a massive removal of features per release or delay of a feature over multiple releases would happen few times in a 5 year window, my ass would be fired immediately
Go, I want to hear the reasonable explanation of this
No use replying, they are King of gas lighting/snakeoil salesman here.
Haven't you noticed how most of posters don't play or care about Star Citizen and no one actually reads the articles or what they actually about? The don't care about game development, just about drama.
Look how many here you see crying about the Roadmap thinking that CIG removed features from development when it was just a change in the visual presentation of said roadmap to better reflect development flow.
@Pigozz post bellow is a great example of that drama based on ignorance and pettyness.
I notice you didn't answer the question he asked about Erin Roberts and her assertion on what they can achieve but chose the coffee vendor part only. Convenient.
I notice you didn't answer the question he asked about Erin Roberts and her assertion on what they can achieve but chose the coffee vendor part only. Convenient.
Does that need any further explanation?
They reported their intentions though the roadmap based on the knowledge they have at that time.
With game development involving a lot of dependencies it's bound to change along the way and the roadmap changes with it, which is why CIG visually changed how it's presented to better represent those changes.
The only really strange issue happening is not that studios change their roadmaps during development (it happens in every single-game).
It's that gamers, who've got multiple examples and reports of game development and multiple crowdfunded projects where it happens, still can't seem to understand WHY they happen and get mad about it.
The only way to prevent this is not expose gamers to roadmaps or game development in general. Which is not an option for crowdfunded games.
Which is why, for the most part, you'll have the AAA companies developing in secrecy and very little about their games will be known until they are in the last stages of the process.
See: Starfield, GTA6, BeyondGoodEvil 2, Witcher 4 and so on.
I notice you didn't answer the question he asked about Erin Roberts and her assertion on what they can achieve but chose the coffee vendor part only. Convenient.
Does that need any further explanation?
They reported their intentions though the roadmap based on the knowledge they have at that time.
With game development involving a lot of dependencies it's bound to change along the way and the roadmap changes with it, which is why CIG visually changed how it's presented to better represent those changes.
The only really strange issue happening is not that studios change their roadmaps during development (it happens in every single-game).
It's that gamers, who've got multiple examples and reports of game development and multiple crowdfunded projects where it happens, still can't seem to understand WHY they happen and get mad about it.
The only way to prevent this is not expose gamers to roadmaps or game development in general. Which is not an option for crowdfunded games.
Ok so why the delay happened? CR stated to treat pledgers as publishers in their pledge letter. So answer, pledger - you should know since this is a crowdfunded game and you preached multiple times how open the development is.
Explain.The.Delay.of.3.17.Features when they were 'damned sure they can do it'
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Ok so why the delay happened? CR stated to treat pledgers as publishers in their pledge letter. So answer, pledger - you should know since this is a crowdfunded game and you preached multiple times how open the development is.
Explain.The.Delay.of.3.17.Features when they were 'damned sure they can do it'
What delay? Updates will continue to drop Quarterly as usual. Some with more stuff others with less just like always.
The flow in which features are ready to deploy changes like everything else. Some features can take longer than expected due to a multitude of reasons. A tech problem that needs to be solved by another department first but that department is still busy working out on something that's also important for another feature. When you're dealing with projects of this size and complexity there's always variables constantly ongoing and there's always something to do.
It's not by chance that CIG keeps expanding their studios every year. They are doing a open universe mmo game AND with a single-player game at the same time.
The biggest and most detailed Open World game, RedDeadRedemption 2, Involved all Rockstar studios and more than 2 thousand of developers along 8 years. And that's probably the most experienced studio making that kind of games with decades of experience and tools ready to use in that kind of game.
CIG just recently crossed the 500 developer headcount, so it shouldn't be hard to understand why it's taking them so much time since they're building a open universe. Which is also why they're moving to a new studio in Manchester and hire 700+ people.
The main focus of CIG now is to finish and release the single-player campaign Squadron 42, so that's where a big chunk of their developer workforce is working on. Still you can see on their ongoing sprints what they're working on and how the workforce is allocated (SQ42 logo / StarCitizen logo) :
A decade ago it was an experiment, but when people now know better but are still enabling this behavior then who really is to blame? While I agree that these projects have failed, we have enabled them from the beginning and are still doing so. That's fine, but also why my lack of sympathy and deaf ears on complaints comes into play. Stop enabling them, or is it really that people prefer the meta game of enabling and then the subsequent speculation and pundit game that follows for years on end?
The blame ALWAYS falls on the person who is over-promising and under-delivering or outright scamming. Should people know better by now? Absolutely, but that does not dilute the liability here. Especially when the consumer is simply complaining that the seller did not do what they said they would do.
I think the problem is that regardless of whether studios are held to account, players will keep funding games before launch. Did CoE suddenly stop people from doing that? I am not sure what it would take, people used to prepay for a game on CD's as soon as online became a thing. Since then that situation has got far worse, but this is about player mentality as much as it is about studios shenanigans and outright duplicity.
Haven't you noticed how most of posters don't play or care about Star Citizen and no one actually reads the articles or what they actually about? The don't care about game development, just about drama.
Look how many here you see crying about the Roadmap thinking that CIG removed features from development when it was just a change in the visual presentation of said roadmap to better reflect development flow.
At ease guys, Keep Kalm & Karen On
But how do their posts differ from yours? Every single SC thread is you with the same snarky comments, video's, meme's and holier then though attitude, you contribute just as little, just as worthless, you don't care about a single SC article as long as it isn't 100 % positive. The difference being that you think you are on some kind of high horse while in reality your are just groveling in the dirt with the other pigs.
I do really take offense to the whole Karen thing btw and will report you if you keep on insulting this community with your slander and badmouthing.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Ok so why the delay happened? CR stated to treat pledgers as publishers in their pledge letter. So answer, pledger - you should know since this is a crowdfunded game and you preached multiple times how open the development is.
Explain.The.Delay.of.3.17.Features when they were 'damned sure they can do it'
What delay? Updates will continue to drop Quarterly as usual. Some with more stuff others with less just like always.
The flow in which features are ready to deploy changes like everything
else. Some features can take longer than expected due to a multitude of
reasons. A tech problem that needs to be solved by another department
first but that department is still busy working out on something that's
also important for another feature. When you're dealing with projects of
this size and complexity there's always variables constantly ongoing
and there's always something to do.
Thats not an explanation, just you making some random and absolutely made up assumptions
As expected, complete ignorance of reality and then some confused mumbling about how development is hard
I had more fruitful discussions with flat earthers
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I'm glad I only put down 60 bucks with it was kickstarting. The 600i seemed worth it and it was as if paying for a full price game anyways. But I vowed then and there not to shell out another dime until I see a finished product.
SC should have made a GAME not a "UNIVERSE" which is nothing more than a cash grab.
I don't get upset, but I do have an interest in the game and why it is so late. Several reasons:
1) professional interest. As someone who has worked on massive projects, much bigger than SC with 10-100 times the revenue, I'm interested in the development process itself. I've seen projects go for years, lose $800 million, and get canceled. I've also felt the danger to my career when our project was 9 months late.
2) personal interest. I played the original Wing Commanders, Privateer, and Freelancer. I loved those games. I want a new game, and I was hoping SC/42 would be it. So I'm disappointed.
3) resistance to fraud. As a software and chip engineer myself, I have a fundamental resistance to fraud. In my job, if you say the chip works, it HAS TO WORK. If you lie, you are fired and blackballed from the industry. If you claim you can achieve this result in a year, you'd better be close to that, or have a good reason why you didn't. I've seen so many people make claims that they couldn't back up, I am permanently skeptical.
The tl;dr version: I am appalled at how badly the project management has been. I'm unhappy that the game I wanted isn't coming out. And I don't like it when people get away with making all kinds of absurd claims, and others back them up. This seems to be getting more and more common, especially in game development.
But how do their posts differ from yours? Every single SC thread is you with the same snarky comments, video's, meme's and holier then though attitude, you contribute just as little, just as worthless, you don't care about a single SC article as long as it isn't 100 % positive. The difference being that you think you are on some kind of high horse while in reality your are just groveling in the dirt with the other pigs.
I do really take offense to the whole Karen thing btw and will report you if you keep on insulting this community with your slander and badmouthing.
The difference is that I actually follow the development closely and play the game that I'm talking about since 2013. Doubt anyone else here can claim the same. It's obvious they just react to clickbait as a way to relieve their frustrations. Angry gamers and all.
So I don't think I'm kind of a high horse, I am a high horse not because I'm better than anyone else here, but because I'm more aware of what's happening due to being more invested from early on.
That we clash on opinions is because I mix knowledge and facts with mocking, which harms egos on the double.
Ok so why the delay happened? CR stated to treat pledgers as publishers in their pledge letter. So answer, pledger - you should know since this is a crowdfunded game and you preached multiple times how open the development is.
Explain.The.Delay.of.3.17.Features when they were 'damned sure they can do it'
What delay? Updates will continue to drop Quarterly as usual. Some with more stuff others with less just like always.
The flow in which features are ready to deploy changes like everything
else. Some features can take longer than expected due to a multitude of
reasons. A tech problem that needs to be solved by another department
first but that department is still busy working out on something that's
also important for another feature. When you're dealing with projects of
this size and complexity there's always variables constantly ongoing
and there's always something to do.
Thats not an explanation, just you making some random and absolutely made up assumptions
As expected, complete ignorance of reality and then some confused mumbling about how development is hard
I had more fruitful discussions with flat earthers
It sure is, you just don't want to face reality because it put's your will to be angry to the ridicule.
If you notice, you're the one who made "some random and absolutely made up assumptions" when you claimed, and I quote:
I pegged Star Citizen at the time of the kickstarter. 'Not going to be as promised, not going to deliver on time.'
Because I was aware of Chris Roberts history. How he'd never delivered a game outside of Origin Systems reasonable structure. How he needs to personally piss on every part of the game to mark it as 'his!'
Fortunately, due to where I live, I was able to talk to some of CR's former co-workers, who I regularly gamed with, pre-pandemic.
I also remember the opprobrium that got slung when I suggested around six years ago that the game wouldn't be out til 2020. Apparently though, I was just being so optimistic.
With Star Citizen the goal posts always move. LIke, with motorized wheels. And jet engines. That don't quite work right.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
You never fail to downward spiral into gaslighting.
Tell me the shoe fits without telling the shoe fits lol
I don't see you worried about all the insults and mockery posters constantly hurl at everyone who dares to enjoy a game or support a company they don't!
"Anyone who still plays X is crazy/idiot" "Anyone who still gives Y money is crazy/idiot"
You never fail to downward spiral into gaslighting.
Tell me the shoe fits without telling the shoe fits lol
I don't see you worried about all the insults and mockery posters constantly hurl at everyone who dares to enjoy a game or support a company they don't!
"Anyone who still plays X is crazy/idiot" "Anyone who still gives Y money is crazy/idiot"
Etc
Valid points. The constant hate and vitriol towards every MMO is why I left this site over 5 years ago and thought I'd never join back. For a site that was supposed to be aimed at supposed MMO enthusiasts if someone just went by the forum posts they would have thought this site was a hangout for haters of the genre. I guess it is just a symptom of the times where polarization and anger seem to dominate all discourse.
That being said, you sir seem to enjoy in tweaking you nose at people bringing legitimate questions and concerns over a company and product that raise valid red flags about how it operates and its business model. You seem to intelligent a person to not see how the concerns and points being brought up are valid so it leaves me (and others) to wonder at your motives aside from the forum pvp.
MadBomber13 said: You seem to intelligent a person to not see how the concerns and points being brought up are valid so it leaves me (and others) to wonder at your motives aside from the forum pvp.
I see ZERO signs of intelligence in his/her/its/their+ posts.
You never fail to downward spiral into gaslighting.
Tell me the shoe fits without telling the shoe fits lol
I don't see you worried about all the insults and mockery posters constantly hurl at everyone who dares to enjoy a game or support a company they don't!
"Anyone who still plays X is crazy/idiot" "Anyone who still gives Y money is crazy/idiot"
Etc
Valid points. The constant hate and vitriol towards every MMO is why I left this site over 5 years ago and thought I'd never join back. For a site that was supposed to be aimed at supposed MMO enthusiasts if someone just went by the forum posts they would have thought this site was a hangout for haters of the genre. I guess it is just a symptom of the times where polarization and anger seem to dominate all discourse.
That being said, you sir seem to enjoy in tweaking you nose at people bringing legitimate questions and concerns over a company and product that raise valid red flags about how it operates and its business model. You seem to intelligent a person to not see how the concerns and points being brought up are valid so it leaves me (and others) to wonder at your motives aside from the forum pvp.
If Chris Roberts himself posted here, Babs posts are literally what it would look like. He's even gone as far as defending his personal lifestyle and how he spends the money he's made off the backers.
Comments
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
In general, yes. Not sure it works with this particular title, though.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Do they take Visa Card?
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
% positive. The difference being that you think you are on some kind of high horse while in reality your are just groveling in the dirt with the other pigs.
I do really take offense to the whole Karen thing btw and will report you if you keep on insulting this community with your slander and badmouthing.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Because I was aware of Chris Roberts history. How he'd never delivered a game outside of Origin Systems reasonable structure. How he needs to personally piss on every part of the game to mark it as 'his!'
Fortunately, due to where I live, I was able to talk to some of CR's former co-workers, who I regularly gamed with, pre-pandemic.
I also remember the opprobrium that got slung when I suggested around six years ago that the game wouldn't be out til 2020. Apparently though, I was just being so optimistic.
With Star Citizen the goal posts always move. LIke, with motorized wheels. And jet engines. That don't quite work right.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
In fact, you're taking it to next level since you're getting angry over changed features in a patch of a game you don't even play lol
Guess when you're feeling down any excuse goes to vent frustrations.
Such is the curse of the jaded mmorpg'ers
You never fail to downward spiral into gaslighting.
I don't see you worried about all the insults and mockery posters constantly hurl at everyone who dares to enjoy a game or support a company they don't!
"Anyone who still plays X is crazy/idiot"
"Anyone who still gives Y money is crazy/idiot"
Etc
That being said, you sir seem to enjoy in tweaking you nose at people bringing legitimate questions and concerns over a company and product that raise valid red flags about how it operates and its business model. You seem to intelligent a person to not see how the concerns and points being brought up are valid so it leaves me (and others) to wonder at your motives aside from the forum pvp.