For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
Wait, would that be the players left arm, or the targets left arm, if duel wielding could they use their left arm to hit the targets right arm? Oh, what if target has 4 arms, 2 legs, could I pick which arm to hit?
Never played Ashes of Creation, maybe they have this all figured out.
I've been out of the MMO loop for about 5+ years now, so not sure what Ashes of Creation is or how they do combat. Was referring to Age of Conan. Sorry for the confusion there.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Wanna know what goads the hell out of me, I used to play Dragonrealms (Gemstone IV) it's a text based MUD/MMO, and they had all this dynamic shit, 28 Years ago!
And today, with MMO's it feels like we dumbed the whole system down, and not for the better.
I mean, casting was levels of coolness in Dragonrealms. Regions had their own mana supply, divided by Arcane, Holy, and Life. So if you were in a jungle you would have more Life Mana in the region, being near holy places or places of divine events would have more holy power, and Arcane fluxed, like a river throughout the game world, so at one time a area could be high in arcane energy and another time low.
So players would need to first perceive the power in the area they were in, and then once they had that, they could prep a spell. While you didn't need to know the power in a area to prep a spell, it helped to know how much you could prep.
and of course the higher your ability to perceive the mana, the more you could find, so at starting ranks, everything felt empty, as you went up, you noticed some areas had more than others, as you got higher and higher, you could see a great variance in how much power was around you, as well as see more power in each room, so in a room that was at one time perhaps no noticeable mana, after many ranks gained, you could go in and find traces of it, maybe not much, but enough to cast some spells, and then later, you can find more, and be able to cast even more spells in an area that at one time you could not cast any.
I loved that aspect.
Then you would prep a spell, and pick how much mana you wanted to pull from the region, say 1 mana, or 10 mana, or whatever, you typed this in. And depending on your ability to perceive the mana and your ability to harness it, and how much was there, would determine if you could pull that much mana from the area to power your spell.
Then you would wait till the spell was ready, and finally cast it at a target. Your harness and spell casting ranks would determine how long it took you to ready the spell, and your concentration would determine if you could hold that spell while getting hit or otherwise distracted.
In this case, you could be in combat, fighting with weapons while also casting spells.
Once cast, how well it worked would depend on your direct spell casting skill, like your Life Magic Casting Ranks, and Magical Targeting Ranks, etc.
This us was not some simple "You have 10K Spell Points to Blow the Shit out of stuff, go have fun!"
And to be honest, I really wish they would make an MMO with that level of dynamic to things like casting.
Combat was not any less involved. You had various kinds of attacks, you also had Stamina, Balance, Overall Weapon Skill, Exact Weapon Skill. This means that you had a base skill rank of how well you could just fight in general, and a skill rank based on that direct weapon style. You could use direct targeted attacks, like aiming for the head, but this would reduce your hitbox, and make it harder for you to land a blow there, but if you hit, it did more damage, and could insta-kill.
Armor, which you could vary, meaning you could have a heavy helm and leather arms, and depending on where you got hit, would depend on what armor skill you used to deflect or brushoff the blow. You had an overall dodge skill, and then you had armor ranks in each armor you were wearing.
And all this, balance, stamina, skills, would combine into each hit you made, and each time you were attacked.
Modern MMO's with tons more power, more tools, more stuff to work with, come across as rudimentary children's games in contrast to that.
And this was stuff we were playing 28 years ago, on dial-up, on computers that have less power than your phone today.
We could be making so much better ..but we don't.. not because we can't.. we just don't.
Those are some cool ideas. I find myself asking how did you hit specific locations in a text based game. Telling the computer where you want hit and using a mouse to graphically hit a specific location are very different beasts
Text based games are very different from graphically based games. Sure, you can "mis-type" like you can "mis-click." But then again, you type your text (action) then wait for the response/feedback. In a graphically based game, you are being attacked while attacking.
Or am I getting this wrong for the text based MMO setting? Is everyone typing actions at the exact same time? I never played text based MMOs
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Computers have enough power that their ability to do complex modeling is irrelevant. The question player's ability to notice info from the screen, do decision based on that, coordinate those decisions with the rest of the group, and control their characters actions.
What if.. There was no info.
You were just given non-numbered data, like in real life.
As opposed to HP, it was just a basic graphical rundown of your health showing injuries, like cuts about the arm, scratches to the face, a broken leg, bleeding from the side, etc, etc, as opposed to a numbered HP bar.
As opposed to a simple yellow stamina bar, you get a heart rate and lung icon showing how your body feels in those two ways, with it beating faster, or nice a slow, to show if you are becoming exhausted.
What if as opposed to Mana Bar, you had an aura about your character, that would get stronger or weaker, the more magical ability you had open to you.
But you were not given numbers, like real life, you just need to take a guess, and hope for the best on that conflict.
Would that be a cool ass game to you, or are you the kind of person that needs to see the numbers?
I think overall, as we ponder that question, perhaps that is why games are made the way they are, not more in depth or realistic.
If the aim is to not give accurate info, that can be done simply by replacing the HP/MP bar with something that turns from green to yellow to red depending on how much HP/MP you've got left.
The aim is to give you viable realistic info that you can use to judge your health in a immersive manner, as opposed to something so totally non sequitur to life and abstract as a number.
The fact that you think not giving you a number is not giving you accurate info, I have to ask, when was the last time you got a number regarding how many hits you can take?
I mean for me, it was, a few years ago, when I was at the gym, I sparred with a guy half my age, and half my body fat percentage while still in the same weight category, and the answer was I have 6 HP, as that is how many times they hit me, before I went down.
So how many HP you pumping?
Can we have our banks use this system?
My balance is yellow. I should be able to buy that new TV.
My Balance is red... here come the overdraft charges!
LOL
I'm just saying, sometimes numbers are good. This is gaming we're talking about, NOT real life, I hope. I want numbers in my games to help me make decisions about the game, not "vague hints." I realize that not all players agree, though
I'm trying to recall... didn't the original Doom games use the players avatar in the bottom center of the screen to mimic the health? They also gave hard numbers for health, too
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
In a mob of 5 opponents, can you hit those specific targets for each mob while being attacked? I "need" tab targeting because I can never click on the correct pixel when faced with multiple targets, unless they are spread out
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
In a mob of 5 opponents, can you hit those specific targets for each mob while being attacked? I "need" tab targeting because I can never click on the correct pixel when faced with multiple targets, unless they are spread out
It would need a system where you select your target, select desired hit location, and select your ability, not necessarily in that order.
If you'd build selecting the body parts you target as some kind of combo system like AoC does, then it might offer fluid gameplay experience.
I'm not saying an MMO couldn't come with system to target body parts. It just needs to adjust rest of the pacing/combat system when you add another selection like that.
Wanna know what goads the hell out of me, I used to play Dragonrealms (Gemstone IV) it's a text based MUD/MMO, and they had all this dynamic shit, 28 Years ago!
And today, with MMO's it feels like we dumbed the whole system down, and not for the better.
I mean, casting was levels of coolness in Dragonrealms. Regions had their own mana supply, divided by Arcane, Holy, and Life. So if you were in a jungle you would have more Life Mana in the region, being near holy places or places of divine events would have more holy power, and Arcane fluxed, like a river throughout the game world, so at one time a area could be high in arcane energy and another time low.
So players would need to first perceive the power in the area they were in, and then once they had that, they could prep a spell. While you didn't need to know the power in a area to prep a spell, it helped to know how much you could prep.
and of course the higher your ability to perceive the mana, the more you could find, so at starting ranks, everything felt empty, as you went up, you noticed some areas had more than others, as you got higher and higher, you could see a great variance in how much power was around you, as well as see more power in each room, so in a room that was at one time perhaps no noticeable mana, after many ranks gained, you could go in and find traces of it, maybe not much, but enough to cast some spells, and then later, you can find more, and be able to cast even more spells in an area that at one time you could not cast any.
I loved that aspect.
Then you would prep a spell, and pick how much mana you wanted to pull from the region, say 1 mana, or 10 mana, or whatever, you typed this in. And depending on your ability to perceive the mana and your ability to harness it, and how much was there, would determine if you could pull that much mana from the area to power your spell.
Then you would wait till the spell was ready, and finally cast it at a target. Your harness and spell casting ranks would determine how long it took you to ready the spell, and your concentration would determine if you could hold that spell while getting hit or otherwise distracted.
In this case, you could be in combat, fighting with weapons while also casting spells.
Once cast, how well it worked would depend on your direct spell casting skill, like your Life Magic Casting Ranks, and Magical Targeting Ranks, etc.
This us was not some simple "You have 10K Spell Points to Blow the Shit out of stuff, go have fun!"
And to be honest, I really wish they would make an MMO with that level of dynamic to things like casting.
Combat was not any less involved. You had various kinds of attacks, you also had Stamina, Balance, Overall Weapon Skill, Exact Weapon Skill. This means that you had a base skill rank of how well you could just fight in general, and a skill rank based on that direct weapon style. You could use direct targeted attacks, like aiming for the head, but this would reduce your hitbox, and make it harder for you to land a blow there, but if you hit, it did more damage, and could insta-kill.
Armor, which you could vary, meaning you could have a heavy helm and leather arms, and depending on where you got hit, would depend on what armor skill you used to deflect or brushoff the blow. You had an overall dodge skill, and then you had armor ranks in each armor you were wearing.
And all this, balance, stamina, skills, would combine into each hit you made, and each time you were attacked.
Modern MMO's with tons more power, more tools, more stuff to work with, come across as rudimentary children's games in contrast to that.
And this was stuff we were playing 28 years ago, on dial-up, on computers that have less power than your phone today.
We could be making so much better ..but we don't.. not because we can't.. we just don't.
Those are some cool ideas. I find myself asking how did you hit specific locations in a text based game. Telling the computer where you want hit and using a mouse to graphically hit a specific location are very different beasts
Text based games are very different from graphically based games. Sure, you can "mis-type" like you can "mis-click." But then again, you type your text (action) then wait for the response/feedback. In a graphically based game, you are being attacked while attacking.
Or am I getting this wrong for the text based MMO setting? Is everyone typing actions at the exact same time? I never played text based MMOs
Well with Texted Based game like DR/GS-IV
They were not turn based, they were RT (Round Time/Real Time), or we call this Cool Down in modern games, like MMO's so mobs were attacking you as you were attacking them, and the combat scroll was real.
You would type: Attack (Mob Name) (Location) (Style) Example: Attack Snowbeast Neck Fast
In this Example, you are aiming for their neck, which has a higher chance to insta-kill them, but since it is a fast attack, a fast attack trades speed for power, so if you hit, it would hit with less force, but you would cut your RT in half, allowing you to do a lot of strikes in hopes to get that lucky head lobber.
So there were options.
Also, You didn't have to use anything fancy however, you could just type : Attack Snowbeast.
And you would randomly hit a part of their body, with most common blows to center mass, but it was still random, so you might take their head off.
With an MMO, I wager it could work something like BDO, where you made combo attacks with Direction + Mouse Attack, so if you went Left+Attack, you attacked their Left side, Up was a head region attack, down would be their legs, etc.
As for what you hit.. with games like BDO, GW2, Crowfall, even DDO, they all used assisted targeting, and you hit whatever you were facing, no tab, no twitch box, you face it, you hit it.
You could combine that with Eternal Crusade style combat, where Left Mouse was Left hand Item, Right Mouse was Right Hand/2Handed Weapons, and the longer you held the mouse, the harder the hit.
So you could make combos like Right Side Attack with Weapon in Right Hand, long hold for hard hit, and Left Side Attack with Weapon in Left Hand, quick tap for fast hit, no need to get twitchy hit-box FPS style play, us old ass nubby finger folks could get into it as well.
But at the same time, you could just hit the attack buttons, and not worry about being all fancy about it.
The part that irks me about this, is that We have the mechanics in place, we have the tech, and we have done these things in many games, to make this happen. yet.. we just don't.
No idea why.. but, we just don't.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If the aim is to not give accurate info, that can be done simply by replacing the HP/MP bar with something that turns from green to yellow to red depending on how much HP/MP you've got left.
The aim is to give you viable realistic info that you can use to judge your health in a immersive manner...
The aim is to make the interface more challenging so that you need time and skills to interpret it?
...as opposed to something so totally non sequitur to life and abstract as a number.
The fact that you think not giving you a number is not giving you accurate info, I have to ask, when was the last time you got a number regarding how many hits you can take?...
I do not have accurate info on how many hits I could take in real life.
I get your point that it would be more realistic to not have number. But that's due to real life lacking accurate info, not because a number wouldn't be more accurate.
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
Wait, would that be the players left arm, or the targets left arm, if duel wielding could they use their left arm to hit the targets right arm? Oh, what if target has 4 arms, 2 legs, could I pick which arm to hit?
Never played Ashes of Creation, maybe they have this all figured out.
I've been out of the MMO loop for about 5+ years now, so not sure what Ashes of Creation is or how they do combat. Was referring to Age of Conan. Sorry for the confusion there.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You were just given non-numbered data, like in real life.
As opposed to HP, it was just a basic graphical rundown of your health showing injuries, like cuts about the arm, scratches to the face, a broken leg, bleeding from the side, etc, etc, as opposed to a numbered HP bar.
As opposed to a simple yellow stamina bar, you get a heart rate and lung icon showing how your body feels in those two ways, with it beating faster, or nice a slow, to show if you are becoming exhausted.
What if as opposed to Mana Bar, you had an aura about your character, that would get stronger or weaker, the more magical ability you had open to you.
But you were not given numbers, like real life, you just need to take a guess, and hope for the best on that conflict.
Would that be a cool ass game to you, or are you the kind of person that needs to see the numbers?
I think overall, as we ponder that question, perhaps that is why games are made the way they are, not more in depth or realistic.
I like the idea of the icons, will make things way more immersive doing that.
It would.
Could also make things more dynamic.
Something else I wanted to mention was in DDO, was DR's. (Damage Reductions) and Immunities.
Case in point, some mobs had DR/Silver, this meant that weapons that where not silver, did directly less damage to them then a silver weapon would do.
In some cases, mobs has things like being incorporeal, meaning that if you didn't have Ghost Touch, you were going to pass through them, roughly 50% of the time.
Some mobs were Immune to Electrical Damage, so that wizard casting that major tower destroying lighting bolt, did nothing to them.
Some mobs were even healed by these kinds of elemental damage, so you shoot that mob with a lighting bolt and it heals it.
Now again, DDO was and still somewhat is, a resource management game, in fact that is what D&D was, a tactics and resource game, to plan ahead for what you will face.
So these kinds of changes make it so that everyone needs to know their enemy. If you go into Taming the Flames, for example, which is a dungeon full of fire elementals. So you mighty paladin with that holy flaming sword that worked so well against the undead in Grave Robber, is going to jack diddly in this quest.
Oh yah, and that fire spec wizard, laden down with Combustion and Fire Lore items, with all those fireball spells at the ready? Yah, might want to swap those out for snowballs, and just embrace you need to make some changes and try not to be a one trick pony in the future.
I wish more games did things like that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
Wait, would that be the players left arm, or the targets left arm, if duel wielding could they use their left arm to hit the targets right arm? Oh, what if target has 4 arms, 2 legs, could I pick which arm to hit?
Never played Ashes of Creation, maybe they have this all figured out.
I've been out of the MMO loop for about 5+ years now, so not sure what Ashes of Creation is or how they do combat. Was referring to Age of Conan. Sorry for the confusion there.
I was just messing with you.
I guessed you were, Age of Conan was not a perfect system I think archery had issues, but my glass canon had no problems in PvP until somebody decided to hit back.
As a healer, being severely limited on mana/spells means you spend a whole lot of time doing nothing in groups or doing incredibly lousy damage. Its a design that makes people avoid playing healers.
On the other hand, making healing based on a quickly restored energy bar makes it feel like you are playing a rogue for healing. Its just busy work and not fun at all.
When healing becomes fun is when you have a mana limiter and a lot of options on what to use, a variation of quick and long cast heals. Content has to make it so you have balance the usage of your spells, just casting efficiently should make group members die, just casting biggest heals makes you run out of mana.
As for adventure style games like D&D, the point of mages is they can do things that warriors can't do, they can read clues, turn someone invisible, charm and confuse people. The system falls apart when the only thing you do is dungeon hack and slash gaming.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
It's fine if there is a viable way to manage the resource otherwise it's just annoying. Having unlimited everything would be boring so there needs to be resource management included to make it interesting. Otherwise where is the fun in pressing the nuke button and watch everything die each fight.
...When healing becomes fun is when you have a mana limiter and a lot of options on what to use, a variation of quick and long cast heals. Content has to make it so you have balance the usage of your spells, just casting efficiently should make group members die, just casting biggest heals makes you run out of mana....
I agree with this.
It also works well on some spellcasting dps classes. At its best the mana bar works kind of like a cooldown: Depending on tactical situation you can choose to spend very little to do moderate damage, do maximum damage at the cost of running out very quickly, or sometimes even gather more mana at the cost of being only marginally useful at that moment.
I like a hybrid system that has multiple unique cooldowns and mana. You can then assign multiple cooldowns to an ability to make it more powerful.
There would be three unique possible cooldowns: verbal, freehand, and channel weapon. Each one is 3 seconds. A spell that uses all three would have a 9 second cooldown and also use more mana. You wont be able to cast that spell for another 9 seconds but you can cast a different spell after 3.
you can then set up your spells the way you want. Things like aoe's would always use at least 2 cooldowns. Single target usually only one cooldown. So there is strategy in assigning and managing the cooldowns.
you wouldn't be able to change the configuration in battle but outside of battle you could change them around how you like.
Cooldowns are a necessary evil in mmo's lest you end up with eso combat.
Yes mana management can be rewarding for casters and being efficient at it allows them to show a level of skill among peers.
My problem is when games have mechanics where you are limited to a certain number of spell casts before you completely run out for the rest of the battle/campaign, or when mana will not regenerate at all or regenerates so slowly you now have to play another melee class for the rest of the fight.
Allowing light attacks to regen mana, or having a decent regen rate like WoW is necessary to enjoy playing a casting class.
I think the same applies to melee, if you ran out of stamina then were not able to attack the rest of the fight with no regen that would be ridiculous. Interesting I have never even heard a game where melee doesn't regen stamina, this seems to only apply to magic users.
Its a double standard that needs to go away and be left in the past with old-school D&D.
Yes mana management can be rewarding for casters and being efficient at it allows them to show a level of skill among peers.
My problem is when games have mechanics where you are limited to a certain number of spell casts before you completely run out for the rest of the battle/campaign, or when mana will not regenerate at all or regenerates so slowly you now have to play another melee class for the rest of the fight.
Allowing light attacks to regen mana, or having a decent regen rate like WoW is necessary to enjoy playing a casting class.
I think the same applies to melee, if you ran out of stamina then were not able to attack the rest of the fight with no regen that would be ridiculous. Interesting I have never even heard a game where melee doesn't regen stamina, this seems to only apply to magic users.
Its a double standard that needs to go away and be left in the past with old-school D&D.
We have been over this, a Melee is limited by how much damage they can take to stay in the fight.
Maybe as opposed to mana, which is making things way too easy button for casters, how about if they made spells cost HP, you know, as opposed to Mana, every spell you cast does damage to you, that way, everyone can be even.
Would that make you happier?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
...When healing becomes fun is when you have a mana limiter and a lot of options on what to use, a variation of quick and long cast heals. Content has to make it so you have balance the usage of your spells, just casting efficiently should make group members die, just casting biggest heals makes you run out of mana....
I agree with this.
It also works well on some spellcasting dps classes. At its best the mana bar works kind of like a cooldown: Depending on tactical situation you can choose to spend very little to do moderate damage, do maximum damage at the cost of running out very quickly, or sometimes even gather more mana at the cost of being only marginally useful at that moment.
Also, with how games are made today, taking the tanks aggro by constantly casting the nuke every time gives another decision to make: 3 little pin pricks or 1 huge bomb?'
With how "aggro" works, one needs to incorporate any changes into the whole and get each piece fitting where it needs to be for "the whole" of the game
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yes mana management can be rewarding for casters and being efficient at it allows them to show a level of skill among peers.
My problem is when games have mechanics where you are limited to a certain number of spell casts before you completely run out for the rest of the battle/campaign, or when mana will not regenerate at all or regenerates so slowly you now have to play another melee class for the rest of the fight.
Allowing light attacks to regen mana, or having a decent regen rate like WoW is necessary to enjoy playing a casting class.
I think the same applies to melee, if you ran out of stamina then were not able to attack the rest of the fight with no regen that would be ridiculous. Interesting I have never even heard a game where melee doesn't regen stamina, this seems to only apply to magic users.
Its a double standard that needs to go away and be left in the past with old-school D&D.
We have been over this, a Melee is limited by how much damage they can take to stay in the fight.
Maybe as opposed to mana, which is making things way too easy button for casters, how about if they made spells cost HP, you know, as opposed to Mana, every spell you cast does damage to you, that way, everyone can be even.
Would that make you happier?
This idea that melee takes damage and casters don't take damage. This is just very little gaming experience. I have seen games where mages take way more damage than melee players. Some games melee tanks are the last ones to die due to high damage absorption, health, shields, dodges, evasion, life drains etc...
There are also other melee classes other than tanks in some games that never take damage, that sit behind a mob and attack for free yet you seem to be ok with them getting unlimited stamina regen.
So if you are basing this on casters just standing there able to attack at will pushing 1 button. Yes that's bad game play mechanics. Once you remove that your point goes down hill that melee takes damage and nobody else does.
1- Limited spell casting is a DnD remnant that has no reason to be nowadays.
2- Magic is supposed to be powerful...... and that super-finishing-axe move as well......
At the end of the day, every ability is just a theme matching some archetypes to stimulate our imaginations.
And in order to make things more strategic, game designers already invented your regular spamming abilities and your ultimate ones that are game changers but also lenghtier cooldown and/or take more resources.
The rest is just details to give a class its "feel" through resource management (stamina/rage for warriors, mana for spellcaster, and so on) and type of buff/debuff (poison for assassins, healing for healers, and so on)
Yes mana management can be rewarding for casters and being efficient at it allows them to show a level of skill among peers.
My problem is when games have mechanics where you are limited to a certain number of spell casts before you completely run out for the rest of the battle/campaign, or when mana will not regenerate at all or regenerates so slowly you now have to play another melee class for the rest of the fight.
Allowing light attacks to regen mana, or having a decent regen rate like WoW is necessary to enjoy playing a casting class.
I think the same applies to melee, if you ran out of stamina then were not able to attack the rest of the fight with no regen that would be ridiculous. Interesting I have never even heard a game where melee doesn't regen stamina, this seems to only apply to magic users.
Its a double standard that needs to go away and be left in the past with old-school D&D.
We have been over this, a Melee is limited by how much damage they can take to stay in the fight.
Maybe as opposed to mana, which is making things way too easy button for casters, how about if they made spells cost HP, you know, as opposed to Mana, every spell you cast does damage to you, that way, everyone can be even.
Would that make you happier?
This idea that melee takes damage and casters don't take damage. This is just very little gaming experience. I have seen games where mages take way more damage than melee players.
That would require the mages have way more HP than the Melee players, which I don't think is the case.
Or is this just a perception issue, and what you really meant to say was "Die in a Lot Less Hits"
Not sure what you tell you on that one, I wager most players would say the same thing, when that happens, "you're not supposed to get hit, you're a caster"
I mean, when you think about it, to a Melee, their HP is akin to their Mana bar, with added boon of when they run out, they just die, so yay for them on that one.
So all the armor, shield blocks, and all that other stuff, is just a means to extend their mana bar, no different than +mana items for casters.
There are also other melee classes other than tanks in some games that never take damage, that sit behind a mob and attack for free yet you seem to be ok with them getting unlimited stamina regen.
So if you are basing this on casters just standing there able to attack at will pushing 1 button. Yes that's bad game play mechanics. Once you remove that your point goes down hill that melee takes damage and nobody else does.
Yah, those high DPS melee players, that if they pull agro they die in one hit, always kinda funny to watch them insta-die and the healer wondering if they should raise them or not.
Lets be honest, they are just as dependent on the tank as the casters are, and when it comes to things like dungeon running, they suck worse than casters do, because not only do they have crap HP and Armor, they also need to be at melee to do damage.
Again.. a Caster has the advantage of Ranged Combat.
I am open to ideas on how to balance that.. but just whining is the not the solution.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Yah, those high DPS melee players, that if they pull agro they die in one hit, always kinda funny to watch them insta-die and the healer wondering if they should raise them or not.
Lets be honest, they are just as dependent on the tank as the casters are, and when it comes to things like dungeon running, they suck worse than casters do, because not only do they have crap HP and Armor, they also need to be at melee to do damage.
Again.. a Caster has the advantage of Ranged Combat.
I am open to ideas on how to balance that.. but just whining is the not the solution.
1, That's what Healers are for. 2, Tanks are overdone. They should be just a little "tanky." And need those healers too, just less often. 3, Casters are balanced by the fact that the opponents can go after them. (How about a little random AI here.) 4, Casters aren't really different, as far as ranged combat, than Archers.
My point I want to make is that all Classes (or Skills) should use a pool of stats when they use powerful attacks, be that Spells or Special Attack/Defense Moves. That's Mana for Mages and Stamina for Warriors/Archers.
Combat should have the strategies of timing involved in when to use your pool of stats, recovery time, Potions, and all of that...for all Classes.
Yah, those high DPS melee players, that if they pull agro they die in one hit, always kinda funny to watch them insta-die and the healer wondering if they should raise them or not.
Lets be honest, they are just as dependent on the tank as the casters are, and when it comes to things like dungeon running, they suck worse than casters do, because not only do they have crap HP and Armor, they also need to be at melee to do damage.
Again.. a Caster has the advantage of Ranged Combat.
I am open to ideas on how to balance that.. but just whining is the not the solution.
1, That's what Healers are for. 2, Tanks are overdone. They should be just a little "tanky." And need those healers too, just less often. 3, Casters are balanced by the fact that the opponents can go after them. (How about a little random AI here.) 4, Casters aren't really different, as far as ranged combat, than Archers.
My point I want to make is that all Classes (or Skills) should use a pool of stats when they use powerful attacks, be that Spells or Special Attack/Defense Moves. That's Mana for Mages and Stamina for Warriors/Archers.
Combat should have the strategies of timing involved in when to use your pool of stats, recovery time, Potions, and all of that...for all Classes.
Putting balanced Limiters on everyone is not a bad plan or idea.
The OP was making a fuss that it was wrong to put a limiter on a caster when they thought the Melee players didn't have any.
That is where the discussion is.
And no, casters are not balanced by mobs going after them, unless they are such bad players that they can't figure out how to move.
I have explained many times before, a melee absolutely needs to get within hit range to do damage, the entire premise of their combat style is trading blows with the mob.
A caster or ranged class does not have this mechanic in place, even if the mob goes after them, they can just keep moving away and doing damage to the mob without taking any damage themselves, or have you never heard of kiting a mob?
I swear, it seems like so many of you never played MMO's.. or were just really.. really.. bad at playing casters/ranged.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Yah, those high DPS melee players, that if they pull agro they die in one hit, always kinda funny to watch them insta-die and the healer wondering if they should raise them or not.
Lets be honest, they are just as dependent on the tank as the casters are, and when it comes to things like dungeon running, they suck worse than casters do, because not only do they have crap HP and Armor, they also need to be at melee to do damage.
Again.. a Caster has the advantage of Ranged Combat.
I am open to ideas on how to balance that.. but just whining is the not the solution.
1, That's what Healers are for. 2, Tanks are overdone. They should be just a little "tanky." And need those healers too, just less often. 3, Casters are balanced by the fact that the opponents can go after them. (How about a little random AI here.) 4, Casters aren't really different, as far as ranged combat, than Archers.
My point I want to make is that all Classes (or Skills) should use a pool of stats when they use powerful attacks, be that Spells or Special Attack/Defense Moves. That's Mana for Mages and Stamina for Warriors/Archers.
Combat should have the strategies of timing involved in when to use your pool of stats, recovery time, Potions, and all of that...for all Classes.
Putting balanced Limiters on everyone is not a bad plan or idea.
The OP was making a fuss that it was wrong to put a limiter on a caster when they thought the Melee players didn't have any.
That is where the discussion is.
And no, casters are not balanced by mobs going after them, unless they are such bad players that they can't figure out how to move.
I have explained many times before, a melee absolutely needs to get within hit range to do damage, the entire premise of their combat style is trading blows with the mob.
A caster or ranged class does not have this mechanic in place, even if the mob goes after them, they can just keep moving away and doing damage to the mob without taking any damage themselves, or have you never heard of kiting a mob?
I swear, it seems like so many of you never played MMO's.. or were just really.. really.. bad at playing casters/ranged.
Ahh, I forgot the current state of MMORPGs and how everyone is locked in. In UO, and in Paper and Pencil D&D (at least the versions I played, Advanced D&D-1), Casters couldn't move while spending the short time of casting. So running away while casting wasn't a thing.
There should be at least a negative modifier to a spell if the Caster is moving while casting. And that movement should not allow a full run, only walking.
Also, you're assuming one MOB? (Side note: Damn I miss "blocking.") One MOB that has no ranged attacks?
Yah, those high DPS melee players, that if they pull agro they die in one hit, always kinda funny to watch them insta-die and the healer wondering if they should raise them or not.
Lets be honest, they are just as dependent on the tank as the casters are, and when it comes to things like dungeon running, they suck worse than casters do, because not only do they have crap HP and Armor, they also need to be at melee to do damage.
Again.. a Caster has the advantage of Ranged Combat.
I am open to ideas on how to balance that.. but just whining is the not the solution.
1, That's what Healers are for. 2, Tanks are overdone. They should be just a little "tanky." And need those healers too, just less often. 3, Casters are balanced by the fact that the opponents can go after them. (How about a little random AI here.) 4, Casters aren't really different, as far as ranged combat, than Archers.
My point I want to make is that all Classes (or Skills) should use a pool of stats when they use powerful attacks, be that Spells or Special Attack/Defense Moves. That's Mana for Mages and Stamina for Warriors/Archers.
Combat should have the strategies of timing involved in when to use your pool of stats, recovery time, Potions, and all of that...for all Classes.
Putting balanced Limiters on everyone is not a bad plan or idea.
The OP was making a fuss that it was wrong to put a limiter on a caster when they thought the Melee players didn't have any.
That is where the discussion is.
And no, casters are not balanced by mobs going after them, unless they are such bad players that they can't figure out how to move.
I have explained many times before, a melee absolutely needs to get within hit range to do damage, the entire premise of their combat style is trading blows with the mob.
A caster or ranged class does not have this mechanic in place, even if the mob goes after them, they can just keep moving away and doing damage to the mob without taking any damage themselves, or have you never heard of kiting a mob?
I swear, it seems like so many of you never played MMO's.. or were just really.. really.. bad at playing casters/ranged.
Ahh, I forgot the current state of MMORPGs and how everyone is locked in. In UO, and in Paper and Pencil D&D (at least the versions I played, Advanced D&D-1), Casters couldn't move while spending the short time of casting. So running away while casting wasn't a thing.
There should be at least a negative modifier to a spell if the Caster is moving while casting. And that movement should not allow a full run, only walking.
Also, you're assuming one MOB? (Side note: Damn I miss "blocking.") One MOB that has no ranged attacks?
Current State? You mean, for the last 20 some odd years, as Kiting has been a thing since EQ1.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I just want to add in, I am fine with casters moving while casting.
In DDO, you can do this, but you take a Concentration Check, meaning you can lose the spell if your concentration is not high enough. So I am all for this tactic, and I think it would a great way to open doors to multi discipline skills and the like.
I am also in full support of mobs casting/shoot back, in DDO, ranged and caster mobs are in fact a thing.
So these are things I support.
But keep in mind a ranged mob is also a harder challenge on a Melee player, as the melee is now getting hit while tying to advance on the Mob, this means, it does not balance out the game between ranged and melee, it just makes it harder on the Melee, as that limiter need to trade blows is there, just now the advantage is given to the ranged mob to kite the melee player, or hit the melee player across obstacles, like chasms, or being up on cliffs able to shoot down on players, and the melee having no clear access to them.
So this is not in any way a balancing act of melee vs ranged, as depending on the AI and game set up, it legit could just make the whole game exponentially harder on the melee player, to the point that they my as well not exist.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
In a mob of 5 opponents, can you hit those specific targets for each mob while being attacked? I "need" tab targeting because I can never click on the correct pixel when faced with multiple targets, unless they are spread out
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If you'd build selecting the body parts you target as some kind of combo system like AoC does, then it might offer fluid gameplay experience.
I'm not saying an MMO couldn't come with system to target body parts. It just needs to adjust rest of the pacing/combat system when you add another selection like that.
They were not turn based, they were RT (Round Time/Real Time), or we call this Cool Down in modern games, like MMO's so mobs were attacking you as you were attacking them, and the combat scroll was real.
You would type: Attack (Mob Name) (Location) (Style)
Example: Attack Snowbeast Neck Fast
In this Example, you are aiming for their neck, which has a higher chance to insta-kill them, but since it is a fast attack, a fast attack trades speed for power, so if you hit, it would hit with less force, but you would cut your RT in half, allowing you to do a lot of strikes in hopes to get that lucky head lobber.
So there were options.
Also, You didn't have to use anything fancy however, you could just type : Attack Snowbeast.
And you would randomly hit a part of their body, with most common blows to center mass, but it was still random, so you might take their head off.
With an MMO, I wager it could work something like BDO, where you made combo attacks with Direction + Mouse Attack, so if you went Left+Attack, you attacked their Left side, Up was a head region attack, down would be their legs, etc.
As for what you hit.. with games like BDO, GW2, Crowfall, even DDO, they all used assisted targeting, and you hit whatever you were facing, no tab, no twitch box, you face it, you hit it.
You could combine that with Eternal Crusade style combat, where Left Mouse was Left hand Item, Right Mouse was Right Hand/2Handed Weapons, and the longer you held the mouse, the harder the hit.
So you could make combos like Right Side Attack with Weapon in Right Hand, long hold for hard hit, and Left Side Attack with Weapon in Left Hand, quick tap for fast hit, no need to get twitchy hit-box FPS style play, us old ass nubby finger folks could get into it as well.
But at the same time, you could just hit the attack buttons, and not worry about being all fancy about it.
The part that irks me about this, is that We have the mechanics in place, we have the tech, and we have done these things in many games, to make this happen. yet.. we just don't.
No idea why.. but, we just don't.
I get your point that it would be more realistic to not have number. But that's due to real life lacking accurate info, not because a number wouldn't be more accurate.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Could also make things more dynamic.
Something else I wanted to mention was in DDO, was DR's. (Damage Reductions) and Immunities.
Case in point, some mobs had DR/Silver, this meant that weapons that where not silver, did directly less damage to them then a silver weapon would do.
In some cases, mobs has things like being incorporeal, meaning that if you didn't have Ghost Touch, you were going to pass through them, roughly 50% of the time.
Some mobs were Immune to Electrical Damage, so that wizard casting that major tower destroying lighting bolt, did nothing to them.
Some mobs were even healed by these kinds of elemental damage, so you shoot that mob with a lighting bolt and it heals it.
Now again, DDO was and still somewhat is, a resource management game, in fact that is what D&D was, a tactics and resource game, to plan ahead for what you will face.
So these kinds of changes make it so that everyone needs to know their enemy. If you go into Taming the Flames, for example, which is a dungeon full of fire elementals. So you mighty paladin with that holy flaming sword that worked so well against the undead in Grave Robber, is going to jack diddly in this quest.
Oh yah, and that fire spec wizard, laden down with Combustion and Fire Lore items, with all those fireball spells at the ready? Yah, might want to swap those out for snowballs, and just embrace you need to make some changes and try not to be a one trick pony in the future.
I wish more games did things like that.
On the other hand, making healing based on a quickly restored energy bar makes it feel like you are playing a rogue for healing. Its just busy work and not fun at all.
When healing becomes fun is when you have a mana limiter and a lot of options on what to use, a variation of quick and long cast heals. Content has to make it so you have balance the usage of your spells, just casting efficiently should make group members die, just casting biggest heals makes you run out of mana.
As for adventure style games like D&D, the point of mages is they can do things that warriors can't do, they can read clues, turn someone invisible, charm and confuse people. The system falls apart when the only thing you do is dungeon hack and slash gaming.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
It also works well on some spellcasting dps classes. At its best the mana bar works kind of like a cooldown: Depending on tactical situation you can choose to spend very little to do moderate damage, do maximum damage at the cost of running out very quickly, or sometimes even gather more mana at the cost of being only marginally useful at that moment.
There would be three unique possible cooldowns: verbal, freehand, and channel weapon. Each one is 3 seconds. A spell that uses all three would have a 9 second cooldown and also use more mana. You wont be able to cast that spell for another 9 seconds but you can cast a different spell after 3.
you can then set up your spells the way you want. Things like aoe's would always use at least 2 cooldowns. Single target usually only one cooldown. So there is strategy in assigning and managing the cooldowns.
you wouldn't be able to change the configuration in battle but outside of battle you could change them around how you like.
Cooldowns are a necessary evil in mmo's lest you end up with eso combat.
My problem is when games have mechanics where you are limited to a certain number of spell casts before you completely run out for the rest of the battle/campaign, or when mana will not regenerate at all or regenerates so slowly you now have to play another melee class for the rest of the fight.
Allowing light attacks to regen mana, or having a decent regen rate like WoW is necessary to enjoy playing a casting class.
I think the same applies to melee, if you ran out of stamina then were not able to attack the rest of the fight with no regen that would be ridiculous. Interesting I have never even heard a game where melee doesn't regen stamina, this seems to only apply to magic users.
Its a double standard that needs to go away and be left in the past with old-school D&D.
Maybe as opposed to mana, which is making things way too easy button for casters, how about if they made spells cost HP, you know, as opposed to Mana, every spell you cast does damage to you, that way, everyone can be even.
Would that make you happier?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
There are also other melee classes other than tanks in some games that never take damage, that sit behind a mob and attack for free yet you seem to be ok with them getting unlimited stamina regen.
So if you are basing this on casters just standing there able to attack at will pushing 1 button. Yes that's bad game play mechanics. Once you remove that your point goes down hill that melee takes damage and nobody else does.
Or is this just a perception issue, and what you really meant to say was "Die in a Lot Less Hits"
Not sure what you tell you on that one, I wager most players would say the same thing, when that happens, "you're not supposed to get hit, you're a caster"
I mean, when you think about it, to a Melee, their HP is akin to their Mana bar, with added boon of when they run out, they just die, so yay for them on that one.
So all the armor, shield blocks, and all that other stuff, is just a means to extend their mana bar, no different than +mana items for casters.
Really simple when you think about it.
Yah, those high DPS melee players, that if they pull agro they die in one hit, always kinda funny to watch them insta-die and the healer wondering if they should raise them or not.
Lets be honest, they are just as dependent on the tank as the casters are, and when it comes to things like dungeon running, they suck worse than casters do, because not only do they have crap HP and Armor, they also need to be at melee to do damage.
Again.. a Caster has the advantage of Ranged Combat.
I am open to ideas on how to balance that.. but just whining is the not the solution.
2, Tanks are overdone. They should be just a little "tanky." And need those healers too, just less often.
3, Casters are balanced by the fact that the opponents can go after them. (How about a little random AI here.)
4, Casters aren't really different, as far as ranged combat, than Archers.
My point I want to make is that all Classes (or Skills) should use a pool of stats when they use powerful attacks, be that Spells or Special Attack/Defense Moves.
That's Mana for Mages and Stamina for Warriors/Archers.
Combat should have the strategies of timing involved in when to use your pool of stats, recovery time, Potions, and all of that...for all Classes.
Once upon a time....
The OP was making a fuss that it was wrong to put a limiter on a caster when they thought the Melee players didn't have any.
That is where the discussion is.
And no, casters are not balanced by mobs going after them, unless they are such bad players that they can't figure out how to move.
I have explained many times before, a melee absolutely needs to get within hit range to do damage, the entire premise of their combat style is trading blows with the mob.
A caster or ranged class does not have this mechanic in place, even if the mob goes after them, they can just keep moving away and doing damage to the mob without taking any damage themselves, or have you never heard of kiting a mob?
I swear, it seems like so many of you never played MMO's.. or were just really.. really.. bad at playing casters/ranged.
In UO, and in Paper and Pencil D&D (at least the versions I played, Advanced D&D-1), Casters couldn't move while spending the short time of casting. So running away while casting wasn't a thing.
There should be at least a negative modifier to a spell if the Caster is moving while casting. And that movement should not allow a full run, only walking.
Also, you're assuming one MOB? (Side note: Damn I miss "blocking.")
One MOB that has no ranged attacks?
Once upon a time....
In DDO, you can do this, but you take a Concentration Check, meaning you can lose the spell if your concentration is not high enough. So I am all for this tactic, and I think it would a great way to open doors to multi discipline skills and the like.
I am also in full support of mobs casting/shoot back, in DDO, ranged and caster mobs are in fact a thing.
So these are things I support.
But keep in mind a ranged mob is also a harder challenge on a Melee player, as the melee is now getting hit while tying to advance on the Mob, this means, it does not balance out the game between ranged and melee, it just makes it harder on the Melee, as that limiter need to trade blows is there, just now the advantage is given to the ranged mob to kite the melee player, or hit the melee player across obstacles, like chasms, or being up on cliffs able to shoot down on players, and the melee having no clear access to them.
So this is not in any way a balancing act of melee vs ranged, as depending on the AI and game set up, it legit could just make the whole game exponentially harder on the melee player, to the point that they my as well not exist.