So the problem is with the elitists who like over the top difficulty and also the people who want gaming easier? Which is it? Talk about cognitive dissonance.
Ever heard of Golilocks?
No, not really.
The thing is "just right" is subjective. Just right is framed in reference to a single person. To the bears in that tale the porridge was 'just right', but to Golilocks it was too hot or cold.
So, who decides what's right? The studio making the game does. They have an idea of what they think is just right, they hope to identify a demographic that appeals to, and they hope those people will want to play it.
The OP feels entitled to have games made just right for them, presents conflicting arguments in the same breath, and then goes on to blame everyone else for existing and not liking what they do.
delete fails to realize not everyone has the same experiences in their early game years.
I played Lineage 1 / 2, DAOC, SB, and even WOW largely solo, grouping only when absolutely forced to or the benefits were too great to pass up.
Even then, multi-boxing usually proved to be a passable solution to keep gameplay to myself even if somewhat slower than actual grouping did.
Vanguard was no different, I picked a hybrid class which let me largely solo until the mid 20s, then hit a wall where it was group or die.
I could have rerolled a Cleric who was able to solo effectively due to it's strong self heals but the game performance back at launch was terrible for most so I quit and played something else.
I don't mind doing some grouping, say no more than 15% - 25% of the time, but any more than this I'm likely to go elsewhere or multi-box my way past the obstacle.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So the problem is with the elitists who like over the top difficulty and also the people who want gaming easier? Which is it? Talk about cognitive dissonance.
Ever heard of Goldilocks?
No, not really.
The thing is "just right" is subjective. Just right is framed in reference to a single person. To the bears in that tale the porridge was 'just right', but to Goldilocks it was too hot or cold.
So, who decides what's right? The studio making the game does. They have an idea of what they think is just right, they hope to identify a demographic that appeals to, and they hope those people will want to play it.
The OP feels entitled to have games made just right for them, presents conflicting arguments in the same breath, and then goes on to blame everyone else for existing and not liking what they do.
Yeah I was framing the Goldilocks zone as the largest pool of people that can be happy in a MMO game. Highest and lowest possible difficulties will be niche, somewhere between these points will appeal to the largest crowd. So its possible to hold an opinion that some games are extremely difficult and others are extremely easy.
I just looked up a definition of care bear "a nice person who is against violence and disputes".
No one at all wants that !
Everyone Wants hard games, much harder than any crap we've been handed in the past 15 years, especially in an mmorpg.
I've been fighting all of you for years now, because your all under the delusion that this is what is wanted all because developers THINK THEY KNOW BETTER.
It's a delusion by developer that think this attract the largest crowed......Well their all wrong, and to prove it "look at us, we have nothing but crap". Then what happens ?........ you all beleave it !
We need a cross between EQ1, and Vanguard!!..... But Keep Sony, Daybreak games, Visionary Realms out of it because they suck, if you think about it, none of them can program games. (they were the first)
Developers don't know crap, so stop following their lead !
Yeah, that is why full loot pvp games always do better than PvE-focused games. As usual, you throw some clickbait out there, make ridiculous blanket statements like you somehow speak for the entire gaming community and all you do is end up sounding like an ignorant ass.
Game Developers know what sells, which is why the ONLY indy game dev studio that has done better than an established company is CIG. Love them or hate them they make money (I do not want to debate their game here, I know I know).
Developers do know what they are doing Far more than you do, as evidenced by your non-sensical rants) the issue is the focus went from making fun games for players to creating money-making machines where the focus is on business and not the art.
Wrong, If the only fruit available are apples. Apples will sell like crazy, they would be selling by the bushels....... Why ?.... Because its the only thing available.
Let that soak in a little, if you still don't understand the point.
That's why crap games sell.
Of course, that's why the early games in the genre were huge hits. When you can only play UO, UO sells well. When you're buying in the prison canteen, everything they've got is precious, because that's all you can get.
Games-as-Business folks know their business, they just don't always understand the intricacies of gaming. It will all work if you have realistic assumptions about costs versus the money you will bring in, in your niche.
There's a ton of niches, thus your blanket assumptions have a lot of holes.
I don't think that's 100%, delete's assertion that is, as it discounts the idea that people have free choice and can choose NOT to buy a game just because it's popular.
If UO is the only game in town and there are people who would at least try it out then it will sell some.
But Same with Everquest.
But I chose not to play UO and I definitely chose not to play Everquest.
I think the early games attracted the type of people who were intrigued by playing with others online, intrigued about being a part of a gaming community and who were predisposed to like these types of games.
Everquest was a very popular game, heck, it was even in the news multiple times, but it never outsold World of Warcraft as far as I can see.
Just because a game exists doesn't mean people are going to roll over and buy it.
I do agree with you in that the business side of gaming needs to understand its audience, have realistic assumptions while catering to that audience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I just looked up a definition of care bear "a nice person who is against violence and disputes".
No one at all wants that !
Everyone Wants hard games, much harder than any crap we've been handed in the past 15 years, especially in an mmorpg.
I've been fighting all of you for years now, because your all under the delusion that this is what is wanted all because developers THINK THEY KNOW BETTER.
It's a delusion by developer that think this attract the largest crowed......Well their all wrong, and to prove it "look at us, we have nothing but crap". Then what happens ?........ you all beleave it !
We need a cross between EQ1, and Vanguard!!..... But Keep Sony, Daybreak games, Visionary Realms out of it because they suck, if you think about it, none of them can program games. (they were the first)
Developers don't know crap, so stop following their lead !
Yeah, that is why full loot pvp games always do better than PvE-focused games. As usual, you throw some clickbait out there, make ridiculous blanket statements like you somehow speak for the entire gaming community and all you do is end up sounding like an ignorant ass.
Game Developers know what sells, which is why the ONLY indy game dev studio that has done better than an established company is CIG. Love them or hate them they make money (I do not want to debate their game here, I know I know).
Developers do know what they are doing Far more than you do, as evidenced by your non-sensical rants) the issue is the focus went from making fun games for players to creating money-making machines where the focus is on business and not the art.
Wrong, If the only fruit available are apples. Apples will sell like crazy, they would be selling by the bushels....... Why ?.... Because its the only thing available.
Let that soak in a little, if you still don't understand the point.
That's why crap games sell.
Of course, that's why the early games in the genre were huge hits. When you can only play UO, UO sells well. When you're buying in the prison canteen, everything they've got is precious, because that's all you can get.
Games-as-Business folks know their business, they just don't always understand the intricacies of gaming. It will all work if you have realistic assumptions about costs versus the money you will bring in, in your niche.
There's a ton of niches, thus your blanket assumptions have a lot of holes.
I don't think that's 100%, delete's assertion that is, as it discounts the idea that people have free choice and can choose NOT to buy a game just because it's popular.
If UO is the only game in town and there are people who would at least try it out then it will sell some.
But Same with Everquest.
But I chose not to play UO and I definitely chose not to play Everquest.
I think the early games attracted the type of people who were intrigued by playing with others online, intrigued about being a part of a gaming community and who were predisposed to like these types of games.
Everquest was a very popular game, heck, it was even in the news multiple times, but it never outsold World of Warcraft as far as I can see.
Just because a game exists doesn't mean people are going to roll over and buy it.
I do agree with you in that the business side of gaming needs to understand its audience, have realistic assumptions while catering to that audience.
I agree, but want to point out more. There was more to the story in those early days. Uo was the only game in town, but the gaming community was much smaller, and "widespread notice" was almost nil. ( I found out about it from my wife, who heard about it from her craft forums where other ladies mentioned their husbands being excited about it.)
Then there was the rampant abuses in UO (PKing and looting, house stealing, etc.) That affected it's numbers, as well.
Meanwhile, for EQ, the "widespread notice" had kicked in but still wasn't like it would become today. WoW brought in a heavy influx in the "widespread notice" because it was Blizzard with a huge following already. Success topped off the "widespread notice", going as far as TV ads. Back to EQ, the 3D was very enticing but it was blocky and ugly, and I'm sure that detracted from participation. Also, EQ designed it like D&D, but put it in a MMO worldly set-up. The world was pretty good, from all I've heard, but you can't mix D&D small party design into a world wide scale effectively. That cause "bottlenecks" at key Dungeons for desired Level Items. WoW fixed that with their Instances, which detracts from "world wide", or "open world" if you will. Which detracts from Massively Multiplayer, but it was accepted because Gamers were used to D&D core design.
"Huge Hits" is very subjective in light of these things, so I'm not sure how valuable comparisons are.
Just adding that stuff because it seems important for some reason.
I want a PvE experience where I can grind mobs viably and maybe do some quests and not worry about PvP but have a 80% of all xp penalty for dieing to a PvE monster. Therefore I'm not a carebear.
Clearly the staff think the conversation is going of the rails but I must admit I can't see it. He just seems to have done a bit of a rant here but I may have missed something. Even though he has told us it is not the case, hopefully the time out helps.
P.S What happened has been pointed out to me and he did go too far. That said too many "bish bosh" posts can bring out the worst in anyone, the onus is on us all to dial it down.
I've leveled every class on the trial island, and explored the whole thing to the end. There was so many gimmicks to be found if you searched.
Yes it was soloable, but especially the last dungeon was, depending upon your class, really really hard, and much easier if you grouped.
I actually enjoyed the flavor and distinct cultural differences and Quest lines/ Architecture etc.. of each racial starting area, would do those and still do on the emu server , altho the rewards thru Starter Isle are really good..
Of course, that's why the early games in the genre were huge hits. When you can only play UO, UO sells well. When you're buying in the prison canteen, everything they've got is precious, because that's all you can get.
Pretty much why Origin/EA had to patch in Trammel to UO once other games like EQ, with PvE servers, got released. Before, even though the ganking was terrible, people stayed because UO was the only AAA MMORPG. Once they got the choice of other games where they could enjoy their favorite activities without being the target of some teenage bully, they started to leave in big numbers.
Without Trammel, UO would have died in the early 2000s.
So apparently, yes, the vast majority wants "carebear"
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Of course, that's why the early games in the genre were huge hits. When you can only play UO, UO sells well. When you're buying in the prison canteen, everything they've got is precious, because that's all you can get.
Pretty much why Origin/EA had to patch in Trammel to UO once other games like EQ, with PvE servers, got released. Before, even though the ganking was terrible, people stayed because UO was the only AAA MMORPG. Once they got the choice of other games where they could enjoy their favorite activities without being the target of some teenage bully, they started to leave in big numbers.
Without Trammel, UO would have died in the early 2000s.
So apparently, yes, the vast majority wants "carebear"
Careful, there are many games to make fun of, this is not one of them
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Of course, that's why the early games in the genre were huge hits. When you can only play UO, UO sells well. When you're buying in the prison canteen, everything they've got is precious, because that's all you can get.
Pretty much why Origin/EA had to patch in Trammel to UO once other games like EQ, with PvE servers, got released. Before, even though the ganking was terrible, people stayed because UO was the only AAA MMORPG. Once they got the choice of other games where they could enjoy their favorite activities without being the target of some teenage bully, they started to leave in big numbers.
Without Trammel, UO would have died in the early 2000s.
So apparently, yes, the vast majority wants "carebear"
Careful, there are many games to make fun of, this is not one of them
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I'm so scared now
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Of course, that's why the early games in the genre were huge hits. When you can only play UO, UO sells well. When you're buying in the prison canteen, everything they've got is precious, because that's all you can get.
Pretty much why Origin/EA had to patch in Trammel to UO once other games like EQ, with PvE servers, got released. Before, even though the ganking was terrible, people stayed because UO was the only AAA MMORPG. Once they got the choice of other games where they could enjoy their favorite activities without being the target of some teenage bully, they started to leave in big numbers.
Without Trammel, UO would have died in the early 2000s.
So apparently, yes, the vast majority wants "carebear"
Careful, there are many games to make fun of, this is not one of them
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I know folks who worked on UO, and they were tearing their hair out nearly weekly over the clever exploits from griefers and gankers.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Of course, that's why the early games in the genre were huge hits. When you can only play UO, UO sells well. When you're buying in the prison canteen, everything they've got is precious, because that's all you can get.
Pretty much why Origin/EA had to patch in Trammel to UO once other games like EQ, with PvE servers, got released. Before, even though the ganking was terrible, people stayed because UO was the only AAA MMORPG. Once they got the choice of other games where they could enjoy their favorite activities without being the target of some teenage bully, they started to leave in big numbers.
Without Trammel, UO would have died in the early 2000s.
So apparently, yes, the vast majority wants "carebear"
Careful, there are many games to make fun of, this is not one of them
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I know folks who worked on UO, and they were tearing their hair out nearly weekly over the clever exploits from griefers and gankers.
Except that applies to every single MMO made to date
I don't think UO would have died without Trammel, which in my opinion, was one of the least desirable ways to handle the PK problem.
What is clear, is something had to be done and I would have preferred a solution that kept the world unified but significantly reigned in the PKS. Any number of creative options were suggested but perhaps there were technical limitations.
I would have dialed up the role of the virtue shrines in the lore such that to keep your 700 skill points you had to remain in favor with all 7 shrines. Losing favor with the shrines would cull your skill points, making you a weaker threat.
I would have also ramped up the bounty hunting system, eliminated fast travel for PKs, and other options while at the same time creating 'Pirate Islands' where lawlessness could run its course.
The problem was, and still is, asshats exploiting the "criminal flagging" system. Something neither Darkfail nor Mortfail Online (I and II) ever understood.
One example... people would go stand in the AOE of other people to bypass the flagging system. That was true in UO, in Darkfall too. But that's only the most obvious way to do it. Hell, people even found way to get people PvP flagged on WoW servers so they could attack them !
The main problem is not really PvP. It's asshats who will, no matter what, cheat, exploit, abuse.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I don't think UO would have died without Trammel, which in my opinion, was one of the least desirable ways to handle the PK problem.
What is clear, is something had to be done and I would have preferred a solution that kept the world unified but significantly reigned in the PKS. Any number of creative options were suggested but perhaps there were technical limitations.
I would have dialed up the role of the virtue shrines in the lore such that to keep your 700 skill points you had to remain in favor with all 7 shrines. Losing favor with the shrines would cull your skill points, making you a weaker threat.
I would have also ramped up the bounty hunting system, eliminated fast travel for PKs, and other options while at the same time creating 'Pirate Islands' where lawlessness could run its course.
The amount of Pre-Trammel Emu rule set servers avaible today agrees with you they are very popular ...
Also a little known fact is that Trammel original design intent was solely for land expansion , as there was no land left for players to build on , the non PK rule set was added during that development as the cries of PK complaints was also becoming very loud , so it was a win/win for them at that time ..
Trammel original intent was a mirror world for land expansion
Comments
I played Lineage 1 / 2, DAOC, SB, and even WOW largely solo, grouping only when absolutely forced to or the benefits were too great to pass up.
Even then, multi-boxing usually proved to be a passable solution to keep gameplay to myself even if somewhat slower than actual grouping did.
Vanguard was no different, I picked a hybrid class which let me largely solo until the mid 20s, then hit a wall where it was group or die.
I could have rerolled a Cleric who was able to solo effectively due to it's strong self heals but the game performance back at launch was terrible for most so I quit and played something else.
I don't mind doing some grouping, say no more than 15% - 25% of the time, but any more than this I'm likely to go elsewhere or multi-box my way past the obstacle.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hope to see you back soon.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There was more to the story in those early days.
Uo was the only game in town, but the gaming community was much smaller, and "widespread notice" was almost nil.
( I found out about it from my wife, who heard about it from her craft forums where other ladies mentioned their husbands being excited about it.)
Then there was the rampant abuses in UO (PKing and looting, house stealing, etc.) That affected it's numbers, as well.
Meanwhile, for EQ, the "widespread notice" had kicked in but still wasn't like it would become today. WoW brought in a heavy influx in the "widespread notice" because it was Blizzard with a huge following already. Success topped off the "widespread notice", going as far as TV ads.
Back to EQ, the 3D was very enticing but it was blocky and ugly, and I'm sure that detracted from participation.
Also, EQ designed it like D&D, but put it in a MMO worldly set-up. The world was pretty good, from all I've heard, but you can't mix D&D small party design into a world wide scale effectively. That cause "bottlenecks" at key Dungeons for desired Level Items. WoW fixed that with their Instances, which detracts from "world wide", or "open world" if you will. Which detracts from Massively Multiplayer, but it was accepted because Gamers were used to D&D core design.
"Huge Hits" is very subjective in light of these things, so I'm not sure how valuable comparisons are.
Just adding that stuff because it seems important for some reason.
Once upon a time....
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
P.S What happened has been pointed out to me and he did go too far. That said too many "bish bosh" posts can bring out the worst in anyone, the onus is on us all to dial it down.
So apparently, yes, the vast majority wants "carebear"
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I'm so scared now
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The problem was, and still is, asshats exploiting the "criminal flagging" system. Something neither Darkfail nor Mortfail Online (I and II) ever understood.
One example... people would go stand in the AOE of other people to bypass the flagging system. That was true in UO, in Darkfall too. But that's only the most obvious way to do it. Hell, people even found way to get people PvP flagged on WoW servers so they could attack them !
The main problem is not really PvP. It's asshats who will, no matter what, cheat, exploit, abuse.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Also a little known fact is that Trammel original design intent was solely for land expansion , as there was no land left for players to build on , the non PK rule set was added during that development as the cries of PK complaints was also becoming very loud , so it was a win/win for them at that time ..
Trammel original intent was a mirror world for land expansion