Iselin above me provided a good rebuttal to this. He enjoys PvP often by his measure. But when he wants to PvE... He doesn't want to be fooled with bring interrupted.
It's not so much that as it is respite from always being on your toes.
Well designed games with separate 24/7 PvP zones do give you the full open world PvP experience with a mix of PvE in there so you do get the "need to look over your shoulder" part while PvEing also when you choose to PvE in those zones.
ESO for example, has nearly the full range of PvE activities in Cyrodiil with quests, delves, harvesting, skyshard hunting and group dolmens in there. They're even incentivized for PvP purposes with dolmens and delves giving you temp PvP buffs and a chance to drop better quality "cold fire" siege equipment. PvEvP is fully integrated in that zone as if it were an open world PvP game. I enjoy that PvE also but like I said, only when I'm in the mood and choose to go there.
The difference is that it is just 1 of 45 zones you can choose to play in. Anywhere else you get the relaxed PvE experience with no one bothering you.
Real choice in those separate zone(s) PvP games is the difference for me. You decide when and where to do it.
My point with the post was merely that successful games with PvP and PvE always include game systems that protect the PvE players game loop. Both ESO and DAoC used the same system: cordoning off PvP into dedicated zones.
EVE, similarly, uses Security ratings and PvE guards to police systems to the point that, in my time playing EVE in high and med-sec, I've never even been attacked.
My point isn't that PvPers have no place in a game with PvE in it. My point is, due to the inherent nature of the gameplay sought by PvPers, they must be prepared to endure gameplay systems that hamper or prevent their efforts to force their preferred type of gameplay on others whenever and wherever they wish. And that's not the 'fault' of ignorant PvE players playing the wrong game.
Edit: imagine a world where someone could run up to you at any point in your free time and force you into a game of one on one basketball. Imagine how frustrating that would be, even if playing pick-up games is your favorite hobby.
"Your friend's birthday outing? Get lost, pal, this man has a double date with me, this ball, and the hoop!"
That's how open world, non-consensual PvP works out without some sort of safeguard system in place.
This has been a great thread which has made me reflect on my own dislike for PVP in general, despite playing EVE of all games for 10 years.
My core pillar for playing any game is to accomplish some sort of progress to my character or personal goals, anything else (socializing, challenge, competition, fun even) are in a very distant second place.
As I basically suck at PVP for "reasons" I usually lose more often than not.
Losing in PVP normally results in no or very little reward in terms of progress that I personally value so it makes sense to me that I should avoid doing PVP when possible.
I didn't enjoy losing in EVE, my cats are still traumatized from my outbursts at home after taking a major loss, but as someone else mentioned I came to view such losses as the cost of doing business, especially as the years wore on. (Not at first though)
CCP did the best job of any MMORPG I ever played putting systems or designs which gave me quite a bit of control on managing or even avoiding the risk of losing which is why I stuck with it for so long.
Perhaps even better, my greatest losses never were ones which could not have been avoided but resulted by my making some sort of mistake, sometime in ignorance of course, but all were correctable so could be avoided in the future.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Edit: imagine a world where someone could run up to you at any point in your free time and force you into a game of one on one basketball. Imagine how frustrating that would be, even if playing pick-up games is your favorite hobby.
No one is forcing a player into anything.
If go to a water park I expect to get wet. If I play tackle football I expect to get tackled, if I play an open world pvp game I expect to get ganked.
Using my lineage 2 example, I knew everything about the game BEFORE I even bought it. All I wanted to do was try an mmorpg and the visuals for Everquest were, at the time, somewhat abhorrent to me.
Lineage 2 called to me so I expected to try it for maximum, a week, and then get out because nothing about the game play seemed interesting enough to keep me. I was there for about 4 and a half years.
There is this victim mentality for some players who find themselves in a game they shouldn't be playing and they scream bloody murder when attacked and all they had to do was not play the game.
Also, your EVE experience wasn't my experience. I got killed right in the starter lowbie whatever it was area. Twice.
Was mining, went to collect what I mined and got killed. There are apparently workarounds for players who can take advantage of ways to kill lowbie players.
Also didn't cry, scream or moan.
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Thanks for the input. Your deep analysis, reflective of 20+ years of mmorpg game play and industry change, will leave me pondering the full revelations of your contribution.
I disagree the demographic is too small and I'd like to see some sort of data to support that. I have a counter example: Lineage 1 and 2 are exactly what I describe. Lineage 1 had probably the single most popular PvPvE MMORPG globally holding a large subscriber base up until the advent of mobile. The revenue from Lineage dwarfs all the other revenue combined by NC. 20 year old Lineage 1 is magnitudes more popular than Guild Wars 2 with its arena style PvP, so there is definitely a viable PvP niche in MMORPGs for this kind of game.
Outside of MMORPGs "always on" PvP is the most popular sort of competitive play and with that I'd cite GS:GO, Dota2, et al.
That isn't to say PvE isn't wildly popular or that there aren't a lot of poorly done PvP games that try and sell a safe pve experience while not really providing it. I am saying that always on PvP in some progression based games is wildly popular.
In Albion you must flag if you enter later game high stage zones. It isn't an option to not PvP. Flagging is only for T3 (or maybe T4) zones and lower unless something has recently changed.
I typically don't play PvP MMORPGs because I don't like most progression based PvP, but I also don't cry and demand a PvE only version of a game. I just skip it and let them know I might have played if they offered more rulesets. I prefer cooperative play over competitive most days. However, cooperating with a guild of friends in a competitive environment like Lineage can be an awesome experience. I'm hoping NCSofts new games will bring a modern take on that system.
A game like Battlefield or CS:GO dedicated to PvP is far different than an MMORPG or game that includes both. That's the definition of an apples to oranges comparison. EDIT: as for data, show me where there's ANY serious money being poured into a hyper-focused PvP MMORPG. I argue the hardcore PvPers aren't popular enough to support an MMORPG in the market. What's the last serious effort we've seen for an open-world PvP MMORPG? Mortal Online 2?
Sorry, but it isn't really about your preferences (or mine, for that matter) or what you think other players should expect here. It's about the content made available in the game and the player feeling like they have some control over the type of content they experience in-game.
Most gamers will put up with a certain amount of interruptions, specifically in more dangerous parts of the world. That's what Albion and EVE achieved. You act like they did this without compromising with player groups other than PvPers, and that's just not accurate. They listened to feedback beyond PvP player groups, and it's very obvious to anyone paying attention to both games. A lot of new content in Albion is purely PvE stuff- they're not obstinate enough to think they can cater solely to the hardcore PvP group and survive.
There are gamers in Albion that never enter the zones you mentioned, just like there are gamers that never enter low or null sec in EVE. Both games require that lower tier resources be included in higher tier crafting recipes *specifically to give newbies and PvEers who do not want to risk PvP a role in these games*. You admit in your own posts that poor PvP games offer no real safe PvE experience. That's *exactly* what I'm talking about when I tell you PvPers, even in open world PvP games, should expect to encounter systems designed to prevent or hamper their attempts to interrupt another's gameplay without consent. They certainly shouldn't take the attitude Sovrath takes with PvEers. That's a good way to kill your own game.
I hate dying and I hate losing, it makes me upset, angry, frustrated, pissed off. I get equally frustrated when I see my favorite team lose against other teams. It just triggers the brain bad.
Still, getting killed in PvP is nothing compared to losing online chess. In PvP you compete with a character and I can fail simply due to equipment differences or class difference. In chess its a competition of the mind and losing due to stupid mistakes makes me feel stupid because I am clearly superior.
I had a PK fight in a longterm MUD that I had grinded bad, and lost some pretty hefty exp. I got super mad, logged off, enjoyed the sun, visited a friend and had a great time that day and never went back to grind again in that MUD.
Sometimes failure can be the best thing that can happen because it can force you to rethink what you do and play.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Edit: imagine a world where someone could run up to you at any point in your free time and force you into a game of one on one basketball. Imagine how frustrating that would be, even if playing pick-up games is your favorite hobby.
Also, your EVE experience wasn't my experience. I got killed right in the starter lowbie whatever it was area. Twice.
Was mining, went to collect what I mined and got killed. There are apparently workarounds for players who can take advantage of ways to kill lowbie players.
Also didn't cry, scream or moan.
Heh, you failed to do your research. I printed out over 10 guides before playing EVE, including a 10 page mining doc, several on PVP, noob scams and basic mechanics.
Read them all several times for 3 weeks before downloading the free trial (which of course I knew how to get an extra week)
I didn't really try mining back then, seemed like a waste of a perfectly good laser, was mostly a mission runner in the early days as the skills trained for it were right in line with those needed to PVP, not so much with mining.
The scam you fell for sounds like one where a noob miner who likely has only a single account is dropping his ore for later pick up in jet cans.
Thing is jet cans can be picked up by anyone, but if they aren't your own they flag you as a criminal making you a free target for everyone else to take a shot at.
So what griefer does (err, so I read) is pick up a few jet cans, making them his own, then drops them back in space.
Noob miner comes back, picks up what he believes are all "his" jetcans but actually ends being flagged as a criminal.
The griefer promptly takes advantage of this and Concord (npc space force) won't react nor does the griefer's security status drop any lower, basically a free kill for only a slight sec loss on their part which can be made up instantly by selling some officer seals.
I'm sure I eventually fell for it years later, if not I fell for much worse, like the time I accidentally purchased a 650K ISK ship hull for 650 MILLION ISK....damn, never market trade at 2:00 am when you are really tired.
I got my revenge on that dude though, he stupidily used his main character to set up that scam instead of a market alt. Several years later I paid a Merc Corp a couple of billion ISK to hunt him down for a few weeks, and they got him twice.
Yeah, he didn't lose much, though was pursued pretty relentlessly for the time.
Was well worth every ISK that I paid for....
I even taunted him about it all, from the safety of a throw away neutral alt on a different account of course, my Momma didn't raise no stupid children.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some people like it, some people don't; personally, I find the threat of "nowhere perfectly safe" makes the world more realistic, believable, and therefore enjoyable. I belong to a guild that does its best to protect other less defensible players. The need for this type of guild would be obviated were there no sudden and unexpected PvP.
/2c
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I have no problems finding other occupations if games suck *shrug*
As the most simple example, simply play old games. The only problem is to get them run. Other than that, they are still exactly as good as when they released.
Or, in the case of Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, since the fanmade patch is still getting improved even today, they even might be a different, better experience now. Though the bugs of the game engine itself are unfortunately unfixable.
The scam you fell for sounds like one where a noob miner who likely has only a single account is dropping his ore for later pick up in jet cans.
Thing is jet cans can be picked up by anyone, but if they aren't your own they flag you as a criminal making you a free target for everyone else to take a shot at.
So what griefer does (err, so I read) is pick up a few jet cans, making them his own, then drops them back in space.
Noob miner comes back, picks up what he believes are all "his" jetcans but actually ends being flagged as a criminal.
The griefer promptly takes advantage of this and Concord (npc space force) won't react nor does the griefer's security status drop any lower, basically a free kill for only a slight sec loss on their part which can be made up instantly by selling some officer seals.
That's exactly what happened. though I didn't leave the cans for long so I suspect the other player was hovering around.
but it involved cans.
No, I didn't do research into EVE as I wasn't really that interested. I just wanted to try it. The idea being that if it caught my attention for longer than a play session then I'd look more into its mechanics.
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You learn quickly in life that you cannot control what other people do...PVP games always felt like prison to me....we were handed a weapon and the guards and warden went home and said "fend for yourself".
You learn quickly in life that you cannot control what other people do...PVP games always felt like prison to me....we were handed a weapon and the guards and warden went home and said "fend for yourself".
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You learn quickly in life that you cannot control what other people do...PVP games always felt like prison to me....we were handed a weapon and the guards and warden went home and said "fend for yourself".
I always looked at it as you were in an active war or at least a world torn by war, strife and factions.
Kind of why Iiked Lineage 2 so much. real things were happening. Real events. Not scripted events, not some quest that you could repeat a million times.
People made their names and reputations on what they did. So did Clans and Alliances.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You learn quickly in life that you cannot control what other people do...PVP games always felt like prison to me....we were handed a weapon and the guards and warden went home and said "fend for yourself".
I always looked at it as you were in an active war or at least a world torn by war, strife and factions.
Kind of why Iiked Lineage 2 so much. real things were happening. Real events. Not scripted events, not some quest that you could repeat a million times.
People made their names and reputations on what they did. So did Clans and Alliances.
This is also what I loved about Lineage. The politics and alliances were real, not manufactured. You weren't a part of "good" or "bad" faction, or one of the three invented factions, you were part of a guild and that guild had alliances. The alliances were messy and human and ever changing. There was intrigue, loyalty, betrayal, and reconciliation. It was an experience I couldn't find in most PvP oriented MMORPGs that were structured more like intramural sports scrimmages than virtual worlds.
Oh, there definitely was a bad "faction" on my L1 server, Rolex and it allies, Rang! Rang!
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You learn quickly in life that you cannot control what other people do...PVP games always felt like prison to me....we were handed a weapon and the guards and warden went home and said "fend for yourself".
I always looked at it as you were in an active war or at least a world torn by war, strife and factions.
Kind of why Iiked Lineage 2 so much. real things were happening. Real events. Not scripted events, not some quest that you could repeat a million times.
People made their names and reputations on what they did. So did Clans and Alliances.
This is also what I loved about Lineage. The politics and alliances were real, not manufactured. You weren't a part of "good" or "bad" faction, or one of the three invented factions, you were part of a guild and that guild had alliances. The alliances were messy and human and ever changing. There was intrigue, loyalty, betrayal, and reconciliation. It was an experience I couldn't find in most PvP oriented MMORPGs that were structured more like intramural sports scrimmages than virtual worlds.
I never played that game nor EVE. But I wonder what might be done in the typical PvP game to maintain, at least largely, a Faction system like that?
In UO they tried to add a Faction system of some sort, but PKers would join a Faction and use it to set up traps and PK other Faction Members. In this case, there was no recourse because a Player didn't have to be in a guild or have any other identifiers besides their own Character name, which could be the same as others or totally unknown to you.
Good question and I'm not sure if there is an answer. Since I stopped playing Lineage I've never really found a PvP MMO that felt the same. Maybe because it was my first MMO and it has the privilege of setting a standard of expectation for me. Maybe it was also a product of the time period and can't be replicated again.
ArcheAge might have been, as it was developed by the same person, but fell all over itself in several places.
I initially backed Ashes of Creation just because, on paper, it sounded like the closest thing to the original experience I could think of. We'll see, and I'm very skeptical, but I thought it worth the chance.
Maybe one of NCSoft's new games will take it up. You never really know until you try them out.
I think you can "know" just by thinking it through. Of course, you need Devs who are serious about it, there's been too many PvP games that make claims and have no intention of being serious about it. "I won't let them destroy my game" being the funniest of them. "Prison, with escape game play" being the next in the good-humor category.
I've thought about it for years, but there's seemingly an unending number of ways to find loopholes that I can find in any such solution.
The problem is "hours of game play, only to give your gains up to the PKers." Players get really tired of that, and start leaving. Faster these days than before, due to reputation. That leaves games losing subs much faster than otherwise, and you end up with only PvPers. That's fine, for the PvPers, but not for anyone else.
I know of ways to fix it via coded restrictions (and still have that open world PvP), but it includes things the PvP community won't accept. I've mentioned them repeatedly, with near zero support. Not even from the PvEers, but if there's a softening of the negativity, who knows. Mostly, it seems to me, people won't listen at all to any ideas.
Good question and I'm not sure if there is an answer. Since I stopped playing Lineage I've never really found a PvP MMO that felt the same. Maybe because it was my first MMO and it has the privilege of setting a standard of expectation for me. Maybe it was also a product of the time period and can't be replicated again.
ArcheAge might have been, as it was developed by the same person, but fell all over itself in several places.
I initially backed Ashes of Creation just because, on paper, it sounded like the closest thing to the original experience I could think of. We'll see, and I'm very skeptical, but I thought it worth the chance.
Maybe one of NCSoft's new games will take it up. You never really know until you try them out.
I think you can "know" just by thinking it through. Of course, you need Devs who are serious about it, there's been too many PvP games that make claims and have no intention of being serious about it. "I won't let them destroy my game" being the funniest of them. "Prison, with escape game play" being the next in the good-humor category.
I've thought about it for years, but there's seemingly an unending number of ways to find loopholes that I can find in any such solution.
The problem is "hours of game play, only to give your gains up to the PKers." Players get really tired of that, and start leaving. Faster these days than before, due to reputation. That leaves games losing subs much faster than otherwise, and you end up with only PvPers. That's fine, for the PvPers, but not for anyone else.
I know of ways to fix it via coded restrictions (and still have that open world PvP), but it includes things the PvP community won't accept. I've mentioned them repeatedly, with near zero support. Not even from the PvEers, but if there's a softening of the negativity, who knows. Mostly, it seems to me, people won't listen at all to any ideas.
Perhaps like solving world hunger or peace on earth, the problem has no workable solution due to human nature being what it is.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Good question and I'm not sure if there is an answer. Since I stopped playing Lineage I've never really found a PvP MMO that felt the same. Maybe because it was my first MMO and it has the privilege of setting a standard of expectation for me. Maybe it was also a product of the time period and can't be replicated again.
ArcheAge might have been, as it was developed by the same person, but fell all over itself in several places.
I initially backed Ashes of Creation just because, on paper, it sounded like the closest thing to the original experience I could think of. We'll see, and I'm very skeptical, but I thought it worth the chance.
Maybe one of NCSoft's new games will take it up. You never really know until you try them out.
I think you can "know" just by thinking it through. Of course, you need Devs who are serious about it, there's been too many PvP games that make claims and have no intention of being serious about it. "I won't let them destroy my game" being the funniest of them. "Prison, with escape game play" being the next in the good-humor category.
I've thought about it for years, but there's seemingly an unending number of ways to find loopholes that I can find in any such solution.
The problem is "hours of game play, only to give your gains up to the PKers." Players get really tired of that, and start leaving. Faster these days than before, due to reputation. That leaves games losing subs much faster than otherwise, and you end up with only PvPers. That's fine, for the PvPers, but not for anyone else.
I know of ways to fix it via coded restrictions (and still have that open world PvP), but it includes things the PvP community won't accept. I've mentioned them repeatedly, with near zero support. Not even from the PvEers, but if there's a softening of the negativity, who knows. Mostly, it seems to me, people won't listen at all to any ideas.
Perhaps like solving world hunger or peace on earth, the problem has no workable solution due to human nature being what it is.
I believe there are a few solutions, but obviously some % of PvEers will not accept anything other than a pure PvE game. Somewhere there's a sweet spot in there, and I think once Gamers see it, more PvEers than expected would love the game for its overall world and their own game play in it.
It would have to be the kind of game I've been promoting though, i.e. a great Sandbox with more AI, Open World PvP limitations of some sort (I've mentioned 3 variations), and all of that.
Good question and I'm not sure if there is an answer. Since I stopped playing Lineage I've never really found a PvP MMO that felt the same. Maybe because it was my first MMO and it has the privilege of setting a standard of expectation for me. Maybe it was also a product of the time period and can't be replicated again.
ArcheAge might have been, as it was developed by the same person, but fell all over itself in several places.
I initially backed Ashes of Creation just because, on paper, it sounded like the closest thing to the original experience I could think of. We'll see, and I'm very skeptical, but I thought it worth the chance.
Maybe one of NCSoft's new games will take it up. You never really know until you try them out.
I think you can "know" just by thinking it through. Of course, you need Devs who are serious about it, there's been too many PvP games that make claims and have no intention of being serious about it. "I won't let them destroy my game" being the funniest of them. "Prison, with escape game play" being the next in the good-humor category.
I've thought about it for years, but there's seemingly an unending number of ways to find loopholes that I can find in any such solution.
The problem is "hours of game play, only to give your gains up to the PKers." Players get really tired of that, and start leaving. Faster these days than before, due to reputation. That leaves games losing subs much faster than otherwise, and you end up with only PvPers. That's fine, for the PvPers, but not for anyone else.
I know of ways to fix it via coded restrictions (and still have that open world PvP), but it includes things the PvP community won't accept. I've mentioned them repeatedly, with near zero support. Not even from the PvEers, but if there's a softening of the negativity, who knows. Mostly, it seems to me, people won't listen at all to any ideas.
Perhaps like solving world hunger or peace on earth, the problem has no workable solution due to human nature being what it is.
You mean like people need rules, regulations and laws and anarchy doesn't work?
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I love PvP and I love PvE, I enjoy them both fully. With that said.
If I am doing PvE stuff, the last thing I want to deal with is PvP Bullshit.
If I am doing PvP stuff, the last thing I want to deal with is PvE Bullshit.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I love PvP and I love PvE, I enjoy them both fully. With that said.
If I am doing PvE stuff, the last thing I want to deal with is PvP Bullshit.
If I am doing PvP stuff, the last thing I want to deal with is PvE Bullshit.
There exists a demographic who likes both PvP and PvE mixed in the same environment. There are several MMORPGs that support this - Lineage 1, Lineage 2, EVE, et al.
Eh? So what.
There are entire demographics of people that like to eat spiders, do you have a point?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I love PvP and I love PvE, I enjoy them both fully. With that said.
If I am doing PvE stuff, the last thing I want to deal with is PvP Bullshit.
If I am doing PvP stuff, the last thing I want to deal with is PvE Bullshit.
There exists a demographic who likes both PvP and PvE mixed in the same environment. There are several MMORPGs that support this - Lineage 1, Lineage 2, EVE, et al.
Eh? So what.
There are entire demographics of people that like to eat spiders, do you have a point?
I was adding on to your list of what kinds of pvp and pve some players like. There is an idea in this thread that the activities must be split. I think that is true for some people, but I wanted to point out there exists a group of people who also like it mixed.
Not sure why that triggered you to lash out with a jerk comment. Did you somehow feel threatened and diminished by a differing opinion and perspective?
I have no idea how what you said relates at all to what I said.
That would be like talking about how much I despise pineapple on pizza and someone coming in and saying "Well there is a whole demographic of people that like Pineapple on pizza"
Like dude, that means jack shit to what I enjoy or my view on things, in fact, there are whole demographics of people that love a lot of things that I think are downright stupid, not sure how that relates to anything I said however.
Or was that some attempt at cohesion to make me feel like I might be wrong, which now makes me wonder, Are you suddenly going to out and learn to love eating spiders because there are entire demographics that enjoy that, after all James Ramsey gave it a try, maybe you are just wrong in not wanting to enjoy some spiders.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
EVE, similarly, uses Security ratings and PvE guards to police systems to the point that, in my time playing EVE in high and med-sec, I've never even been attacked.
My point isn't that PvPers have no place in a game with PvE in it. My point is, due to the inherent nature of the gameplay sought by PvPers, they must be prepared to endure gameplay systems that hamper or prevent their efforts to force their preferred type of gameplay on others whenever and wherever they wish. And that's not the 'fault' of ignorant PvE players playing the wrong game.
Edit: imagine a world where someone could run up to you at any point in your free time and force you into a game of one on one basketball. Imagine how frustrating that would be, even if playing pick-up games is your favorite hobby.
"Your friend's birthday outing? Get lost, pal, this man has a double date with me, this ball, and the hoop!"
That's how open world, non-consensual PvP works out without some sort of safeguard system in place.
My core pillar for playing any game is to accomplish some sort of progress to my character or personal goals, anything else (socializing, challenge, competition, fun even) are in a very distant second place.
As I basically suck at PVP for "reasons" I usually lose more often than not.
Losing in PVP normally results in no or very little reward in terms of progress that I personally value so it makes sense to me that I should avoid doing PVP when possible.
I didn't enjoy losing in EVE, my cats are still traumatized from my outbursts at home after taking a major loss, but as someone else mentioned I came to view such losses as the cost of doing business, especially as the years wore on. (Not at first though)
CCP did the best job of any MMORPG I ever played putting systems or designs which gave me quite a bit of control on managing or even avoiding the risk of losing which is why I stuck with it for so long.
Perhaps even better, my greatest losses never were ones which could not have been avoided but resulted by my making some sort of mistake, sometime in ignorance of course, but all were correctable so could be avoided in the future.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sorry, but it isn't really about your preferences (or mine, for that matter) or what you think other players should expect here. It's about the content made available in the game and the player feeling like they have some control over the type of content they experience in-game.
Most gamers will put up with a certain amount of interruptions, specifically in more dangerous parts of the world. That's what Albion and EVE achieved. You act like they did this without compromising with player groups other than PvPers, and that's just not accurate. They listened to feedback beyond PvP player groups, and it's very obvious to anyone paying attention to both games. A lot of new content in Albion is purely PvE stuff- they're not obstinate enough to think they can cater solely to the hardcore PvP group and survive.
There are gamers in Albion that never enter the zones you mentioned, just like there are gamers that never enter low or null sec in EVE. Both games require that lower tier resources be included in higher tier crafting recipes *specifically to give newbies and PvEers who do not want to risk PvP a role in these games*. You admit in your own posts that poor PvP games offer no real safe PvE experience. That's *exactly* what I'm talking about when I tell you PvPers, even in open world PvP games, should expect to encounter systems designed to prevent or hamper their attempts to interrupt another's gameplay without consent. They certainly shouldn't take the attitude Sovrath takes with PvEers. That's a good way to kill your own game.
Still, getting killed in PvP is nothing compared to losing online chess. In PvP you compete with a character and I can fail simply due to equipment differences or class difference. In chess its a competition of the mind and losing due to stupid mistakes makes me feel stupid because I am clearly superior.
I had a PK fight in a longterm MUD that I had grinded bad, and lost some pretty hefty exp. I got super mad, logged off, enjoyed the sun, visited a friend and had a great time that day and never went back to grind again in that MUD.
Sometimes failure can be the best thing that can happen because it can force you to rethink what you do and play.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Read them all several times for 3 weeks before downloading the free trial (which of course I knew how to get an extra week)
I didn't really try mining back then, seemed like a waste of a perfectly good laser, was mostly a mission runner in the early days as the skills trained for it were right in line with those needed to PVP, not so much with mining.
The scam you fell for sounds like one where a noob miner who likely has only a single account is dropping his ore for later pick up in jet cans.
Thing is jet cans can be picked up by anyone, but if they aren't your own they flag you as a criminal making you a free target for everyone else to take a shot at.
So what griefer does (err, so I read) is pick up a few jet cans, making them his own, then drops them back in space.
Noob miner comes back, picks up what he believes are all "his" jetcans but actually ends being flagged as a criminal.
The griefer promptly takes advantage of this and Concord (npc space force) won't react nor does the griefer's security status drop any lower, basically a free kill for only a slight sec loss on their part which can be made up instantly by selling some officer seals.
I'm sure I eventually fell for it years later, if not I fell for much worse, like the time I accidentally purchased a 650K ISK ship hull for 650 MILLION ISK....damn, never market trade at 2:00 am when you are really tired.
I got my revenge on that dude though, he stupidily used his main character to set up that scam instead of a market alt. Several years later I paid a Merc Corp a couple of billion ISK to hunt him down for a few weeks, and they got him twice.
Yeah, he didn't lose much, though was pursued pretty relentlessly for the time.
Was well worth every ISK that I paid for....
I even taunted him about it all, from the safety of a throw away neutral alt on a different account of course, my Momma didn't raise no stupid children.
God, I loved that game....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
but it involved cans.
No, I didn't do research into EVE as I wasn't really that interested. I just wanted to try it. The idea being that if it caught my attention for longer than a play session then I'd look more into its mechanics.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You learn quickly in life that you cannot control what other people do...PVP games always felt like prison to me....we were handed a weapon and the guards and warden went home and said "fend for yourself".
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kind of why Iiked Lineage 2 so much. real things were happening. Real events. Not scripted events, not some quest that you could repeat a million times.
People made their names and reputations on what they did. So did Clans and Alliances.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But I wonder what might be done in the typical PvP game to maintain, at least largely, a Faction system like that?
In UO they tried to add a Faction system of some sort, but PKers would join a Faction and use it to set up traps and PK other Faction Members. In this case, there was no recourse because a Player didn't have to be in a guild or have any other identifiers besides their own Character name, which could be the same as others or totally unknown to you.
Once upon a time....
I've thought about it for years, but there's seemingly an unending number of ways to find loopholes that I can find in any such solution.
The problem is "hours of game play, only to give your gains up to the PKers."
Players get really tired of that, and start leaving. Faster these days than before, due to reputation.
That leaves games losing subs much faster than otherwise, and you end up with only PvPers. That's fine, for the PvPers, but not for anyone else.
I know of ways to fix it via coded restrictions (and still have that open world PvP), but it includes things the PvP community won't accept. I've mentioned them repeatedly, with near zero support. Not even from the PvEers, but if there's a softening of the negativity, who knows. Mostly, it seems to me, people won't listen at all to any ideas.
Once upon a time....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It would have to be the kind of game I've been promoting though, i.e. a great Sandbox with more AI, Open World PvP limitations of some sort (I've mentioned 3 variations), and all of that.
Once upon a time....
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I love PvP and I love PvE, I enjoy them both fully. With that said.
There are entire demographics of people that like to eat spiders, do you have a point?
That would be like talking about how much I despise pineapple on pizza and someone coming in and saying "Well there is a whole demographic of people that like Pineapple on pizza"
Like dude, that means jack shit to what I enjoy or my view on things, in fact, there are whole demographics of people that love a lot of things that I think are downright stupid, not sure how that relates to anything I said however.
Or was that some attempt at cohesion to make me feel like I might be wrong, which now makes me wonder, Are you suddenly going to out and learn to love eating spiders because there are entire demographics that enjoy that, after all James Ramsey gave it a try, maybe you are just wrong in not wanting to enjoy some spiders.