Bling not P2W

Scot

Now hold on to your mouse and keyboard when I say this, I think its actually good that there are player whales who want to put huge amounts of money into a game. But how can that be done in such a way they don't distort the gameplay?

In a sense this is the same problem in CF MMO's, players putting in lots of dosh and expecting to be listened to in development. That does not always end well, CoE is one MMO where we heard about some of the issues of having too many kings. Not saying that had anything to do with the closure, but "too many cooks spoil the broth" or community as they say.

So could they be won over to just splashing large in areas other than P2W? Look at Fortnite an economy built on outfits. (Torval look away) Could we not have a MMORPG where the whales have the best dress, homes and noble looking steeds? But where they have just as much chance in PvP or entering a dungeon as anyone else?

To an extent this already exists, players who can afford good outfits and homes get them in our top rated MMOs. But why not up the bling? I know this would offend some but if they want to go round dressed like peacocks while we are in more basic gear should we care? When Lotro added an outfit overlay, I was really happy. My dwarf had been wearing this high end dwarf gear for ages that looked ludicrous to me, it looked like they had allowed themselves to be dressed by elves. So thinking back over the game I knew there was a set of battle worn plate I could get by redoing a quest, that's what my dwarf is still in.

So can we make use of big spending and stay true to gaming ethos or must it go down a route that always unfairly distorts gameplay?

Wordsworth

A necessary evil in F2P games and I can live with it, whatever.

However, it will never stop feeling bad(to me) when you can't earn in-game cosmetics through in-game achievements.

It will also never feel good(to me) to use a cosmetic that's simply bought for cash. 

I'm old and a dying breed, though.  I'm still in the psychology that your appearance in online games should tell where you've been and what you've done.

An ex bought me some bat mount in WoW, like a million years ago, and I never used it or any of the cosmetic items that came from microtransactions.

Scot

Wordsworth said:

A necessary evil in F2P games and I can live with it, whatever.

However, it will never stop feeling bad(to me) when you can't earn in-game cosmetics through in-game achievements.

It will also never feel good(to me) to use a cosmetic that's simply bought for cash. 

I'm old and a dying breed, though.  I'm still in the psychology that your appearance in online games should tell where you've been and what you've done.

An ex bought me some bat mount in WoW, like a million years ago, and I never used it or any of the cosmetic items that came from microtransactions.

Now that's standing up for your principles, not using cosmetics bought for you. My idea does not preclude people getting outfits from quests and the like, but just the best bling goes prepared to spend silly money on costumes. 

AAAMEOW

A question is weather the cosmetic will be sellable.  If it can be sold, it is essentially like selling gold.  

And the expensive cosmetic will most likely be in loot box to maximize profit.  

Quizzical

The problem is that whale bait doesn't work unless it's something that whales are willing to pay a lot of money for.  If you try to convince whales to pay a lot of money for something that they don't care about, they'll quit your game and go play one that gives them something that they want for their money.

Wordsworth

Scot said:

Now that's standing up for your principles, not using cosmetics bought for you. 

It was pretty easy to not use as I just never felt the desire. 

I understand the paper doll aspect of these things and why people enjoy expressing themselves that way. 

I'm just more into seeing and using cosmetics that show some sort of in-game achievement - even if it's anniversary.  I feel like that tells me a more interesting story about their in-game avatar than their aesthetic preferences do.

If it's taking a stand, it's the most low-effort one I've ever taken.

Scot

Quizzical said:

The problem is that whale bait doesn't work unless it's something that whales are willing to pay a lot of money for.  If you try to convince whales to pay a lot of money for something that they don't care about, they'll quit your game and go play one that gives them something that they want for their money.

Well that's just it, are costumes enough? It is in Fortnite, why not a proper MMORPG? I do think that many pay for power and if they cannot P2W they won't play, but if even a quarter of them still would for outfits its a possibility.

Also just spotting this which says whales (2% of players) make up to 50% of a mobile games revenue that less than we had been hearing, those dolphins are really putting something in.

What Are “Mobile Game Whales” & How To Find Them [GUIDE Included] | Udonis Mobile Marketing Agency

ChildoftheShadows

Depending on the game, for sure. APB: Reloaded is the game I've spent the most money on and it equated to about 1 year's worth of subscriptions total which isn't bad for playing it 2-3 years. I didn't start paying until after  year 1 either.

In a game like that cosmetics are fine. In a game like Everquest cosmetics ruins everything for me. The main reason I went after specific armor in game was for the looks and being able to buy them or use dyes ruined it for me.

AAAMEOW

Scot said:

Quizzical said:

The problem is that whale bait doesn't work unless it's something that whales are willing to pay a lot of money for.  If you try to convince whales to pay a lot of money for something that they don't care about, they'll quit your game and go play one that gives them something that they want for their money.

Well that's just it, are costumes enough? It is in Fortnite, why not a proper MMORPG? I do think that many pay for power and if they cannot P2W they won't play, but if even a quarter of them still would for outfits its a possibility.

Also just spotting this which says whales (2% of players) make up to 50% of a mobile games revenue that less than we had been hearing, those dolphins are really putting something in.

What Are “Mobile Game Whales” & How To Find Them [GUIDE Included] | Udonis Mobile Marketing Agency

I presume most games are already selling cosmetic.  So what's your point?  You think 15$ cosmetic is too cheap and need to ramp up to 10,000$?  You really think someone would buy 10,000$ cosmetic?

Scot

AAAMEOW said:

Scot said:

Quizzical said:

The problem is that whale bait doesn't work unless it's something that whales are willing to pay a lot of money for.  If you try to convince whales to pay a lot of money for something that they don't care about, they'll quit your game and go play one that gives them something that they want for their money.

Well that's just it, are costumes enough? It is in Fortnite, why not a proper MMORPG? I do think that many pay for power and if they cannot P2W they won't play, but if even a quarter of them still would for outfits its a possibility.

Also just spotting this which says whales (2% of players) make up to 50% of a mobile games revenue that less than we had been hearing, those dolphins are really putting something in.

What Are “Mobile Game Whales” & How To Find Them [GUIDE Included] | Udonis Mobile Marketing Agency

I presume most games are already selling cosmetic.  So what's your point?  You think 15$ cosmetic is too cheap and need to ramp up to 10,000$?  You really think someone would buy 10,000$ cosmetic?

That's the question I am asking, they seem to have a desire to splash the cash that goes beyond all reason. What we need is some data on P2W as opposed to cosmetic spending, I couldn't find anything. So sure have those 15$ outfits in for the dolphins and the 10K ones for the whales. If that's been tried anywhere we would have a handle on how viable this is in a proper MMORPG'

cameltosis

Selling bling is definitely an improvement over selling P2W items.

But, that is still a damn sight worse than simply selling the game for a fixed price. I remain a firm believer that if you build a good game, enough people will buy it for a fixed price that you can make big profits. If you then follow that up with good quality DLCs / expansions (also sold for fixed prices) then you can continue to "milk" your game for many many years.

Quizzical

What if whales could have some say in cosmetic design?  For example, a whale pays $1000 or some other sum that exceeds the cost of creating a cosmetic costume or whatever, and gets to say, it has to look like such and such.  Companies could veto things that are obviously inappropriate.  There could also be copyright or trademark infringement issues in some cases.  But would a whale be willing to pay a lot more for a cosmetic item that looks exactly what he wants it to look like than for some off-the-shelf item?  Whales who like cosmetics might.

And then you don't have to make that item exclusive to the whale.  You stick it in the item mall so that anyone else who wants to buy it for $10 can do so.  Only the whale gets to decide what it looks like, but anyone else can buy it if they want.

Would that raise much revenue from whales?  I don't know--and if it doesn't, then it's useless.  But it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would lead non-whales to cry about "pay to win".

Quizzical

Stizzled said:

AAAMEOW said:

Scot said:

Quizzical said:

The problem is that whale bait doesn't work unless it's something that whales are willing to pay a lot of money for.  If you try to convince whales to pay a lot of money for something that they don't care about, they'll quit your game and go play one that gives them something that they want for their money.

Well that's just it, are costumes enough? It is in Fortnite, why not a proper MMORPG? I do think that many pay for power and if they cannot P2W they won't play, but if even a quarter of them still would for outfits its a possibility.

Also just spotting this which says whales (2% of players) make up to 50% of a mobile games revenue that less than we had been hearing, those dolphins are really putting something in.

What Are “Mobile Game Whales” & How To Find Them [GUIDE Included] | Udonis Mobile Marketing Agency

I presume most games are already selling cosmetic.  So what's your point?  You think 15$ cosmetic is too cheap and need to ramp up to 10,000$?  You really think someone would buy 10,000$ cosmetic?

Oh, you mean you haven't heard about NFTs? $10k is nothing.

Unless you consider NFTs that sold for over $1 million not so long ago no longer still even being worth $10k:

https://opensea.io/assets/ethereum/0x1cb1a5e65610aeff2551a50f76a87a7d3fb649c6/2155

Slapshot1188

That was pre-crash.  Now many are worth 2 cents

Wordsworth

Scot said:

 It is in Fortnite, why not a proper MMORPG? 

It wasn't, that's why they added battle passes with XP boosts.

Iselin

Looks you can buy that don't affect game play at all are not in the same category as buying power that affects your performance. They do no harm to the integrity of the even playing field games should all have unlike P2Win items.

However it is still an obnoxious practice since they carve out things from games that are part of the side details that make games more enjoyable when they're attainable as fun scavenger hunts or achievement rewards, and put them behind paywalls.

I don't like cash shop bling but I'm much more tolerant of that than I am of clear P2Win power or some of the slightly less egregious "convenience" items that often stray damn close to P2Win territory.

There are degrees to the sleaze inherent in all cash shop offerings but all of it makes playing the games at the very least a little bit worse than without the cash shops.

I'm not talking about whether developers need to eat or drive Ferraris. I'm talking simply about the game playing experience as a player and from that perspective every single cash shop and everything in them can go suck a donkey dick.

AAAMEOW

Scot said:

AAAMEOW said:

Scot said:

Quizzical said:

The problem is that whale bait doesn't work unless it's something that whales are willing to pay a lot of money for.  If you try to convince whales to pay a lot of money for something that they don't care about, they'll quit your game and go play one that gives them something that they want for their money.

Well that's just it, are costumes enough? It is in Fortnite, why not a proper MMORPG? I do think that many pay for power and if they cannot P2W they won't play, but if even a quarter of them still would for outfits its a possibility.

Also just spotting this which says whales (2% of players) make up to 50% of a mobile games revenue that less than we had been hearing, those dolphins are really putting something in.

What Are “Mobile Game Whales” & How To Find Them [GUIDE Included] | Udonis Mobile Marketing Agency

I presume most games are already selling cosmetic.  So what's your point?  You think 15$ cosmetic is too cheap and need to ramp up to 10,000$?  You really think someone would buy 10,000$ cosmetic?

That's the question I am asking, they seem to have a desire to splash the cash that goes beyond all reason. What we need is some data on P2W as opposed to cosmetic spending, I couldn't find anything. So sure have those 15$ outfits in for the dolphins and the 10K ones for the whales. If that's been tried anywhere we would have a handle on how viable this is in a proper MMORPG'

The first thing is proving raising price actually means more profits, because raising price also means less people buying.  Basic economic says there is an equilibrium price which maximize the profits.

I presume raising price actually don't raise the profits that is why I dont' see companies raising price on cosmetic.

I do see loot box used often though.  They dont' sell like 500$ cosmetic.  They just sell a lootbox which you need to average 500$ to get the best skin in it.  

AlBQuirky

"Too many cooks spoil the broth (or community)."

Here's another one, "Give an inch and they want a mile." Where does stop?

I tend more toward Iselin's thoughts, as cash shops change the very nature of any game. Instead of "putting in time to acquire", players just play with credit card handy.

I dislike cash shops of any kind. I view them as "the bane of online gaming"

I do understand that many players don't mind them, and some even like them. I just avoid "cash shop games" if at all possible

Scot

Quizzical said:

What if whales could have some say in cosmetic design?  For example, a whale pays $1000 or some other sum that exceeds the cost of creating a cosmetic costume or whatever, and gets to say, it has to look like such and such.  Companies could veto things that are obviously inappropriate.  There could also be copyright or trademark infringement issues in some cases.  But would a whale be willing to pay a lot more for a cosmetic item that looks exactly what he wants it to look like than for some off-the-shelf item?  Whales who like cosmetics might.

And then you don't have to make that item exclusive to the whale.  You stick it in the item mall so that anyone else who wants to buy it for $10 can do so.  Only the whale gets to decide what it looks like, but anyone else can buy it if they want.

Would that raise much revenue from whales?  I don't know--and if it doesn't, then it's useless.  But it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would lead non-whales to cry about "pay to win".

I had not thought of that! If you had one version for the whale, even say just colour choices, and one for the rest that would tempt them more. Definitely not P2W, and it puts money into a game so whats not to like? The fact is many players would be up in arms, but far less than for P2W.

Wordsworth said:

Scot said:

 It is in Fortnite, why not a proper MMORPG? 

It wasn't, that's why they added battle passes with XP boosts.

I did not realise, but then cash shops always get worse never better. But then did they do it to keep the game going or just make more money, the later I would think.

AAAMEOW said:

The first thing is proving raising price actually means more profits, because raising price also means less people buying.  Basic economic says there is an equilibrium price which maximize the profits.

I presume raising price actually don't raise the profits that is why I dont' see companies raising price on cosmetic.

I do see loot box used often though.  They dont' sell like 500$ cosmetic.  They just sell a lootbox which you need to average 500$ to get the best skin in it.  

I am thinking of a range of prices, you can still get cheaper outfits (if $15 is cheap, I have only ever bought and outfit as a thank you when playing a F2P game). So you use exclusivity for the the top tier, just like real life.

Torval said:

AlBQuirky said:

"Too many cooks spoil the broth (or community)."

Here's another one, "Give an inch and they want a mile." Where does stop?

I tend more toward Iselin's thoughts, as cash shops change the very nature of any game. Instead of "putting in time to acquire", players just play with credit card handy.

I dislike cash shops of any kind. I view them as "the bane of online gaming"

I do understand that many players don't mind them, and some even like them. I just avoid "cash shop games" if at all possible

Said much more eloquently than I was able to muster and much easier to understand than my ramble. Thanks! In a nutshell, it just ruins the game play for me.

And where does it stop is an excellent question. "P2W" is really a subjective moving target and it isn't the point of my issues with monetizing every little thing. Most of us don't mind monetization that doesn't affect us or is targeted at something we don't care abut. Like you said, some people are fine with this sort of thing.

Setting aside business ethics, it's a matter of quality game play and why I even spend my time playing a game. I've come to the place where cash shops just ruin it for me.

I agree with you, but I am adding a dash of pragmatism to our principles. I want a great subscription only MMORPG, but realise its a pipe dream. So how can they rake the money in and stay away from P2W? This is just one idea and Torval is right, I picked the part of the cash shop that does not bother me and said "Ok let them do their worst".

But they have to make serious money some how, if I suggested a subscription of $40 a month how would that go down? Personally happy to pay $20 but $40?


Stizzled: I was not thinking of NFT's, for me that's only one step away from crypto, so already a step too far.

Iselin

Torval said:

"How can they rake in the money and stay away from P2W?" My poorly expressed point being it isn't going to happen. It may exist as a temporal stage on its way to ever expanding revenue generation but it will never stop until it's stopped.

The goalposts will always be moved. When cosmetics in a cash shop are completely normalized the line will be moved. Some power items will start to be sold. "Cosmetics" will start to have stats. Boosters to get better drop rates and quality will be sold. It's a slow but steadily moving line.

You're trying to make an arbitrary and subjective distinction, which is honorable but futile, with an amorphous concept like P2W. The industry itself doesn't care about these arbitrary community generated distinctions. Carving up bits of a game for monetization is really the core point. Why should it matter, and it doesn't, what exactly is monetized. If everything could be monetized, it would be and eventually will be.

Games that advertise "cosmetic only cash shop - No P2W!" are doing so as a PR marketing gimmick not because they care or see a significant difference in what they can monetize. While Blizzard has been shameless about their DI monetization, they're also being honest in how they envision monetizing games as a whole. That thought represents the core mindset of the revenue generating arm of the industry.

Sound cynical? Maybe. I never though when subscriptions for gaming services like Prodigy and Neverwinter Nights, early MMOs, and the like would eventually lead to cash shops, NFTs, and where we are today? Cynical maybe, but realistic, definitely.

You're right and not cynical at all IMO, but at the moment, paying for clear power increases for the core game play is a line that some won't cross and there's even one famous example with EA and SW Battlefront when they did cross it and backed off after public backlash.

It will undoubtedly get much worse in the future if they're left to their own devices and I'm sure many studios are watching to see to what extent Blizzard gets away with it in DI which, despite all the hand waving about how this is just how it is in mobile, is a big deal because its Blizz doing it with one of their iconic franchises.

For now at least we can see a difference in the mainstream AAA console and PC world where monetizing obvious core power is still mostly a no no. BDO's cosmetics with benefits is not the norm... yet.

eoloe

That's funny because I wanted to create a post about a fair F2P model for MMOs.

Like many of us, I think first and foremost that cosmetics should be the reward for achievements.

It was working great in GW1. You were doing your elite PvE content for cosmetics and you would show them off in PvP (knowing that GW1 had its own streaming channel accessible ingame for PvP games involving guild classified in the top 100).

However, I bought skins in Smite, mechs in MWO, and outfits in BDO (I regret the latter).

I think a way to do it right for cosmetics would be this way:

- let the whales pay for cosmetics of a certain category (e.g. outfits)

- keep some cosmetics for achievements (e.g. weapons / pets / whatever)

-------

Would people pay for just cosmetics?

-------

Yes, definitively.

I currently play PSO2:NGS. The game is incredibly generous in free cosmetics/character recreation. You can switch to 10 different looks you created for free. The free battlepass section gives access to salon tickets you can use to recreate entirely your character.

Despite all this generosity and the fact you can buy paid outfits on the free currency market, people still spend money for cosmetics.

Cosmetics are definitively a reason to spend money in the eyes of many players.

-------

Beyond cosmetics

-------

Horizontal progression? Such as

- new class

- new powers

- new skills

But for this to work, make sure there is no P2W element

VIP areas? Such as

- special Inn/club (depending of the setting)

- special map

Again not anything P2W, just privileged access.

Other suggestions?

Amaranthar

My take is that anything sold in a CS is taking game play away from Gamers, cheapening the reward by making it just another cash ticket, and taking away from the "world" that many gamers want to run in. 

Think about how these things, even the so called "cosmetics", could be earned as desirable loot or made by Crafting. Sold, the in-game money being used to buy things that other Crafters make, spreading into a viable economy and giving Gamers who value more than just "Hack and Slash" other worthwhile things to do. 

Some of you get caught up in the making of money, but there's no better way to make money than to sell a great product. 
We're never going to have that, a great product, with all this out-of-game stuff going on. 

Scot

Amaranthar said:

My take is that anything sold in a CS is taking game play away from Gamers, cheapening the reward by making it just another cash ticket, and taking away from the "world" that many gamers want to run in. 

Think about how these things, even the so called "cosmetics", could be earned as desirable loot or made by Crafting. Sold, the in-game money being used to buy things that other Crafters make, spreading into a viable economy and giving Gamers who value more than just "Hack and Slash" other worthwhile things to do. 

Some of you get caught up in the making of money, but there's no better way to make money than to sell a great product. 
We're never going to have that, a great product, with all this out-of-game stuff going on. 

You are spot on, but how do we get a great MMORPG made with good gaming ethos these days? Something has to give, so what is it that is going to give? I didn't see posters jumping on the idea of a $40 monthly or for that matter a $20 monthly, studios need to rake it in somehow, so how?

Torval said:

Scot said:

(Torval look away)

lolol I missed this when I first read your post. I should have just let you have your peace. I seriously laughed when I read it again just now.

Iselin said:

You're right and not cynical at all IMO, but at the moment, paying for clear power increases for the core game play is a line that some won't cross and there's even one famous example with EA and SW Battlefront when they did cross it and backed off after public backlash.

I agree and I think some big pubs saw the easy money and lost their shit and just went for it. That was a mistake. It was too fast too soon. The D3 RMAH was another one. Maybe they were just testing the waters and gauging where they were at. 

Maybe they use these as a way to push forward a little. Something crazy like Diablo Immortal causes a big stir with the blatantly outrageous. Then Diablo 4 will release with a much tamer cash shop and model than DI and will be received as more than reasonable. Only, it will still have been a major step forward because D3 doesn't have a cash shop at all.

If we look back a decade or more the consensus was very conservative about what a cash shop could look like. Even with "just cosmetics" it has steamrolled forward. In some not too distant future we'll look back on this time as much tamer and more selective.

Unless the idea that companies need to charge as much as they can get away with somehow changes I don't see how it can progress any other way, except by incorporating new horizontal monetization avenues like NFTs and crypto. Most likely both.

Quite happy you are posting but I realised this was going to be an anathema to gamers like yourself who put so much value in the cosmetic setup. "Cash shops always get worse", that's almost like it was a first principle of physics, it will always be so. Take ESO it started really well, there was no cash shop, but once the cash shop was introduced the gaming ethos started to slide.

So I am really only talking about how a great MMORPG could start, ESO shows us that they can start well, indeed as a subscription only MMO. In around a couple of years after launch the P2W would start. But at least we would get two or three good years!

What I have noticed from our more "industry insider" posters, is that there is a "well ESO couldn't be done again attitude". I don't accept that, but I think the gaming industry is working to that assumption. So how else could a great new MMO be funded if not just with a sub, is cosmetics the way forward?

Eoloe had some good ideas like VIP areas, what about special emotes and the like? If a whale wants to be lord of the manor and buy a 100k palatial home on top of the hill while I have a cottage in the village below, crack on. They will be paying for a game I want to play, that's good enough for me.

Wordsworth

Scot said:

What I have noticed from our more "industry insider" posters, is that there is a "well ESO couldn't be done again attitude". I don't accept that, but I think the gaming industry is working to that assumption. So how else could a great new MMO be funded if not just with a sub, is cosmetics the way forward?

You could totally do it again...and again and again ad nauseam.

I think the real thing to be discussed is whether or not it's worth it to keep throwing ideas at the business model and seeing what sticks.  Is cash shop the only monetization method that will work?  Everyone dragged their heels with the $15 sub model + box price for decades until Turbine tried something new. 

Maybe it is time to spitball ideas outside the box, because it might be time to consider the fact that no matter how much you 'tweak' it, there is no microtransaction model that is both profitable and consumer friendly.

olepi

People will pay money to advance in whatever the context of the game is. Fortnite is a good example. There are no skill lines, no traits to improve. XP hardly matters, you are not advancing anything. Weapons, ammo, etc, are found in the game, and you don't get to improve them or keep them.  You start out the same in every game.

All that is left is your emotes and costume. People spend a ton to get those.

An MMO is just the opposite kind of game. The whole idea in an MMORPG (note the RPG part) is to grow and develop your character. Learn new skills, advance your level, gain  more power, acquire fancy weapons and improve them. Advance, grow, and keep your progress.

So people want to pay for that advancement. Costumes, etc, do sell, but people also want to advance their character.

Fortnite is competitive PvP, but everybody always starts out the same. MMO's are competitive PvP, but you can be more advanced than your opponent. People will pay a ton for that.

Scot

olepi said:

People will pay money to advance in whatever the context of the game is. Fortnite is a good example. There are no skill lines, no traits to improve. XP hardly matters, you are not advancing anything. Weapons, ammo, etc, are found in the game, and you don't get to improve them or keep them.  You start out the same in every game.

All that is left is your emotes and costume. People spend a ton to get those.

An MMO is just the opposite kind of game. The whole idea in an MMORPG (note the RPG part) is to grow and develop your character. Learn new skills, advance your level, gain  more power, acquire fancy weapons and improve them. Advance, grow, and keep your progress.

So people want to pay for that advancement. Costumes, etc, do sell, but people also want to advance their character.

Fortnite is competitive PvP, but everybody always starts out the same. MMO's are competitive PvP, but you can be more advanced than your opponent. People will pay a ton for that.

The Fortnite model reminds me of a gaming Second Life, but they do sell XP "potions" through passes now, one of the posters here picked that up for us. To me though that's just raking it in, I really doubt the game would not have stayed a financial success without that move.