I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Challenging =/= harsh death penalties. They are unrelated concepts.
True when the penalty for death is trivial but not necessarily if it is significant.
If the death penalty is severe and recovery from it difficult or the process lengthy things could be more difficult for the character until what was lost is restored.
Right. Great design that "Hey this dude just died in that fight. Let's make him do it again but this time with less gear and 20% less health... haha."
It may not be to your preference, but there are those that delete their characters on death because that consequence enhances their play enjoyment.
It's not as though harsh penalties for death are unprecedented in MMORPGs. They are now long since out of style but they once existed nonetheless.
Many still express a desire for their restoration, to varying degree.
Apparently some feel such designs to be at least better than the current trends.
I am all for that if you die in game you die in real life-
I am a scizo misanthrope. So one day I may go BANZAI on your post. Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope? Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Elden Ring is challenging? Not according to these folks who completed the entire mainline in 21 to 30 mins.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Challenging =/= harsh death penalties. They are unrelated concepts.
True when the penalty for death is trivial but not necessarily if it is significant.
If the death penalty is severe and recovery from it difficult or the process lengthy things could be more difficult for the character until what was lost is restored.
Right. Great design that "Hey this dude just died in that fight. Let's make him do it again but this time with less gear and 20% less health... haha."
It may not be to your preference, but there are those that delete their characters on death because that consequence enhances their play enjoyment.
It's not as though harsh penalties for death are unprecedented in MMORPGs. They are now long since out of style but they once existed nonetheless.
Many still express a desire for their restoration, to varying degree.
Apparently some feel such designs to be at least better than the current trends.
Oh I know the precedent. I was there and got the T-shirt. I also know some glorify it and equate it with challenge. I personally feel it's primitive and a poor substitute for real challenge.
I want to play the game I just don't want to waste time with imposed timers or artificial handicaps if you ignore the timers. What I want to do is get right back in there and try to beat whatever kicked my ass.
Corpse runs and other death penalties with rezz sickness are just idiotic time wasters that keep me from using my time to actually play the game, IMO of course.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Challenging =/= harsh death penalties. They are unrelated concepts.
True when the penalty for death is trivial but not necessarily if it is significant.
If the death penalty is severe and recovery from it difficult or the process lengthy things could be more difficult for the character until what was lost is restored.
Right. Great design that "Hey this dude just died in that fight. Let's make him do it again but this time with less gear and 20% less health... haha."
It may not be to your preference, but there are those that delete their characters on death because that consequence enhances their play enjoyment.
It's not as though harsh penalties for death are unprecedented in MMORPGs. They are now long since out of style but they once existed nonetheless.
Many still express a desire for their restoration, to varying degree.
Apparently some feel such designs to be at least better than the current trends.
Oh I know the precedent. I was there and got the T-shirt. I also know some glorify it and equate it with challenge. I personally feel it's primitive and a poor substitute for real challenge.
I want to play the game I just don't want to waste time with imposed timers or artificial handicaps if you ignore the timers. What I want to do is get right back in there and try to beat whatever kicked my ass.
Corpse runs and other death penalties with rezz sickness are just idiotic time wasters that keep me from using my time to actually play the game, IMO of course.
The people who like to iron man an MMO with game or self imposed penalties are the exception, not the rule. Most players just want to have a good time. These artificial roadblocks turn fun into tedium. Also, corpse ruins, rezz sickness, and full looting of your corpse are truly shitty punitive features, but I think the most sinister was the actual losing of hard won experience points upon character death. That has to be the biggest game developer dick move, not to mention a big old FU to the players. I'm glad so many of these daft ideas have fallen by the wayside.
I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Challenging =/= harsh death penalties. They are unrelated concepts.
True when the penalty for death is trivial but not necessarily if it is significant.
If the death penalty is severe and recovery from it difficult or the process lengthy things could be more difficult for the character until what was lost is restored.
Right. Great design that "Hey this dude just died in that fight. Let's make him do it again but this time with less gear and 20% less health... haha."
It may not be to your preference, but there are those that delete their characters on death because that consequence enhances their play enjoyment.
It's not as though harsh penalties for death are unprecedented in MMORPGs. They are now long since out of style but they once existed nonetheless.
Many still express a desire for their restoration, to varying degree.
Apparently some feel such designs to be at least better than the current trends.
Oh I know the precedent. I was there and got the T-shirt. I also know some glorify it and equate it with challenge. I personally feel it's primitive and a poor substitute for real challenge.
I want to play the game I just don't want to waste time with imposed timers or artificial handicaps if you ignore the timers. What I want to do is get right back in there and try to beat whatever kicked my ass.
Corpse runs and other death penalties with rezz sickness are just idiotic time wasters that keep me from using my time to actually play the game, IMO of course.
Exactly. The time wasted in failed attempts provides penalty in itself. I agree that it doesn't need to be embellished further, but opinion varies a good bit on the issue.
Challenging =/= harsh death penalties. They are unrelated concepts. One is about having to use your brain and/or reflexes and the other one is just some random token punishment for failing.
If something is challenging and it takes you 4 or 5 tries to figure it out and succeed at it whatever happens between those 5 tries is irrelevant to the encounter's challenge level.
Death penalties are just imposed pauses between tries. Something superfluous to the encounter and boring time wasters.
If something takes 5 tries to figure out, then the death penalty isn't very relevant to challenge.
However if players have the possibility to die 90% less that's only challenging with severe enough death penalty that those who take their time to ensure they die less will be faster.
I tend to be on the wrong side of the pack with this one. I tend toward harsher penalies than most people like. I think a death penalty need to be such that most people will dislike dieing. Whether there is some item loss, item decay, monetary, time, or something else, it needs to be such that people wish to avoid it. I've been in games where there is a certain 'chain' where people will engage some boss, and the players try to wear it down by keeping 1 person alive so that people can die and run back, until the boss is taken down. I personally don't like that. I've been in games where your sword of ultimate killing breaks and it costs 30 gp to repair.
I find that a harsher mechanic makes success a bit sweeter and failure a bit more bitter. When I look at peoples favorite stories, they usually seem to be from times where they had to work for success and had terrible setbacks while adventuring. You don't seem to get that when the penalty is too weak. I am not saying it needs to be full loot or permanent death. Just more than most games now at days.
I agree. But the problem is that games have a wide scale of player gaming skill, and you don't want too harsh of a penalty for those in the bottom half. This makes any kind of penalty really hard to come to terms with.
I like the idea of losing loot to MOBs and then to corpse decay. UO had that. It added so much more to the game. First and foremost, you had players helping each other out. Lots of guilds built up their membership with this, and friendships formed too.
Plus, sometimes you killed a MOB and got their loot, plus extra loot from players they had looted. It was a nice bonus if those players weren't still around, guilt free.
--------------- I always remember this fun story. Not all players were fun to be around. Some were abrasive. I ran across one player in a dungeon, he was fighting a MOB, and he was a little outclassed. He was slowly working his way towards a death robe. (Player's ghosts wore only a death robe, which appeared with them when resurrected as a sort of gift.) I asked him if he wanted help, and his response was "NO!"
So I stood around watching as his health bar slipped dangerously low, and asked again, "Do you want help?" Again, his response was "NO!"
Then he died.
Now, UO ghosts had two things about them. One was that they were invisible until they spoke, and two was that their words were jumbled up and it took a Spirit Speak skill to understand them (most players didn't build that skill because of limits to overall skills). After a few seconds they'd disappear again and have to speak again to be seen.
So I finished off the weakened MOB and stood there waiting for his ghost to speak and reveal his ghostly form. That's when you could hit them with a Resurrect spell. So he spoke and revealed himself right in front of me, he wanted a Res. That's when I asked for the final time, "Do you want help?"
That makes sense, but that's why the fleece us for all that money. To find a way. Seriously, though, I'm sure there could be some sort of graduated system. Mobs get harder as you level. Maybe death penalty could be tied to that. Just an idea. I agree that you don't want noobs being driven away (I enjoy pvp loot games, but asswipes tend to prey on noobs and hurt the very game that they want people to play..I guess along with asswipe, I'll add dumbasses).
Interesting, because this also the case with games.
So what is wasting time in a time wasting activity?
Not exactly.
Ideally, playing a game should be fun, an activity that brings joy.
I mean, sure, there are some people that want to turn their game into a job, and personally I think those people fucked in the head (Feel free to try and change my mind), and should be given more work at work, till they learn that games should not be confused with work.
Anyway, for most people, games are a means of joy, after all, if you are not having fun, why bother playing that game or doing that hobby.
And In reality, games like MMO's are No different than any other hobby, from tabletop games, to fishing, the goal is to generate a fun time passing activity.
Which brings us to death pens.
One could argue that they provide a risk/thrill to the game, to lose 'all that time and effort' in one single mistake.
Even if the time and effort to get there was somewhat fun, losing it takes away that enjoyment, and then becomes the process of earning it back again, and thus cycle quickly runs the risk of becoming something like a Sisyphus effect, where he was condemned to push a rock up a hill, only to have to fall back down at the last moment, and thus an eternal cycle of pushing the rock up the hill.
So, losing that "Fun" advancement to an "Unfun" death penalty, is a fine line between the game being joy and tedium.
Where they line is drawn, depends on the player.
For some, just getting their ass beat is enough of a loss to them, that any additional penalty becomes insult to injury, while others, unless they are dragging their nuts across a cheese grater, while playing Perma death, they are just not having fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Interesting, because this also the case with games.
So what is wasting time in a time wasting activity?
Leisure activities aren't a waste of time. They enhance one's well being.
Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome, or an outcome similarly desirable. This applies regardless of the nature of the time spent and the outcome desired.
Whether work or play we only have so much time to devote to either. The wasting of it in either case is best kept to a minimum.
I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Elden Ring is challenging? Not according to these folks who completed the entire mainline in 21 to 30 mins.
Interesting, because this also the case with games.
So what is wasting time in a time wasting activity?
Leisure activities aren't a waste of time. They enhance one's well being.
Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome, or an outcome similarly desirable. This applies regardless of the nature of the time spent and the outcome desired.
Whether work or play we only have so much time to devote to either. The wasting of it in either case is best kept to a minimum.
This is more of a philosophical argument than anything.
I enjoy playing video games in my free time, but I don't view it as productive time.
I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Ah there we go again, right on schedule.
Challenging =/= harsh death penalties. They are unrelated concepts. One is about having to use your brain and/or reflexes and the other one is just some random token punishment for failing.
If something is challenging and it takes you 4 or 5 tries to figure it out and succeed at it whatever happens between those 5 tries is irrelevant to the encounter's challenge level.
Death penalties are just imposed pauses between tries. Something superfluous to the encounter and boring time wasters.
My point is not really death penalty and even less harsh ones, even if sometimes it does connect with my opinions on the matter, which is the concept of what is a "game".
IMO a game is an activity in which you can win or you can lose.
In MMOs this concept is often challenged. You progress for tens of hours without any kind of difficulty. It makes this progression not engaging and utterly boring.
That is a common trend in MMOs. The whole thing is usually downgraded by low quality story and quests that nobody care about.
You start to find the game(win/lose) 80 hours later with Raids and PvP (which is IMO stupid but that's not the topic).
Now you have other types of MMOs such as EVE online in which you can lose everything. Yes that's not your carebear relaxing stroll here in high sec, but the thrill you experience second after second is unique. For sure it is not for everybody.
Now, there are games such as BDO.
BDO HAS CHALLENGING CONTENT and also HAS DEATH PENALTY (loss of expensive crystal). However, the main activity, which is grinding (= mass murdering monsters for XP and loot) forces the players to go to their dedicated grinding zone which is conveniently identified by gear score in order to optimize their time.
Grinding in BDO is one of the most boring activity I have ever done in an MMO. At least, it is flashy and beautiful, but that's it. It makes the game tedious, and you are supposed to dedicate tens/hundreds of hours to get the XP/drops you want.
Moreover, and worst game design ever, you lose progression not on death, not on mistake, but just randomly because you tried to become more powerful.
So, here you can see the discussion is not a simple "Challenging =/= harsh death penalties."
The matter is more complex than it seems.
There are people that play games because they want to relax. They allocate a fraction of their brain to the mindless content and joke on Discord. And why not?
There are people that play games to live a thrilling/engaging experience and here death penalty makes it more intense. And why not?
I like to do both and whatever in between depending on my mood.
You don't like death penalty. That's ok. Don't play such games. I do like them:
Examples:
- my best memory in Diablo 2 was playing with randoms, and we were all dying many times to a boss losing a lot of XP in the process. But we were committed, and the boss finally died. It was feeling stupid and epic at the same time.
- in Skyrim, I always delete my character on death. Here, the matter is less the thrill than the "your story is over, let's make a new one". Meaning it is fabricating memories.
- I loved Elden RIng. It happened that I lost tens of thousand runes (progress) in it and I never felt the game was badly designed. One of my best experience in video games. Finishing it brought the same nostalgia as finishing a good book.
- I currently play Chaos Gate. I did 2 playthroughs. Both are losses (and at the same spot! Grrr). I did start the game without knowing it before hand in its "ironman" mode. Here, it is for the thrill and also because of the win/lose concept mentioned at the beginning.
Interesting, because this also the case with games.
So what is wasting time in a time wasting activity?
Leisure activities aren't a waste of time. They enhance one's well being.
Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome, or an outcome similarly desirable. This applies regardless of the nature of the time spent and the outcome desired.
Whether work or play we only have so much time to devote to either. The wasting of it in either case is best kept to a minimum.
I knew this one would trigger people!
However, the following sentence applied to games IS the problem:
"Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome"
People think that losing in a game is a waste of time. Proof is that you have toxicity in raids. A lot of people simply refuse to accept loss as a normal outcome. Which is one of the reason why some people play your usual MMO. No loss unless you engage in elite activities.
Example:
In PSO:NGS, I can kill thousands of mobs. No problem. If I die. No problem. I respawn and continue the slaughter until I get bored.
Challenging =/= harsh death penalties. They are unrelated concepts. One is about having to use your brain and/or reflexes and the other one is just some random token punishment for failing.
Kind of.
What harsh death penalties add to combat is "weight." I think you may agree that a fight that one can beat in one try is easier than on that takes a few tries. That is where the comparison should be made.
However, a harsh death penalty may have some players think more about how to approach a fight rather than running headlong into it. Most players operate on this mindset: Use the alpha strike first then see what's left. It sucks if you (general you) are a player that approaches each and every fight thinking "strategy first."
Poo-pooing other players' preferences accomplishes very little. You dislike harsh death penalties and that is great. For you (and others). That doesn't negate others' preferences.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I tend to be on the wrong side of the pack with this one. I tend toward harsher penalies than most people like. I think a death penalty need to be such that most people will dislike dieing. Whether there is some item loss, item decay, monetary, time, or something else, it needs to be such that people wish to avoid it. I've been in games where there is a certain 'chain' where people will engage some boss, and the players try to wear it down by keeping 1 person alive so that people can die and run back, until the boss is taken down. I personally don't like that. I've been in games where your sword of ultimate killing breaks and it costs 30 gp to repair.
I find that a harsher mechanic makes success a bit sweeter and failure a bit more bitter. When I look at peoples favorite stories, they usually seem to be from times where they had to work for success and had terrible setbacks while adventuring. You don't seem to get that when the penalty is too weak. I am not saying it needs to be full loot or permanent death. Just more than most games now at days.
I agree. But the problem is that games have a wide scale of player gaming skill, and you don't want too harsh of a penalty for those in the bottom half. This makes any kind of penalty really hard to come to terms with.
I like the idea of losing loot to MOBs and then to corpse decay. UO had that. It added so much more to the game. First and foremost, you had players helping each other out. Lots of guilds built up their membership with this, and friendships formed too.
Plus, sometimes you killed a MOB and got their loot, plus extra loot from players they had looted. It was a nice bonus if those players weren't still around, guilt free.
--------------- I always remember this fun story. Not all players were fun to be around. Some were abrasive. I ran across one player in a dungeon, he was fighting a MOB, and he was a little outclassed. He was slowly working his way towards a death robe. (Player's ghosts wore only a death robe, which appeared with them when resurrected as a sort of gift.) I asked him if he wanted help, and his response was "NO!"
So I stood around watching as his health bar slipped dangerously low, and asked again, "Do you want help?" Again, his response was "NO!"
Then he died.
Now, UO ghosts had two things about them. One was that they were invisible until they spoke, and two was that their words were jumbled up and it took a Spirit Speak skill to understand them (most players didn't build that skill because of limits to overall skills). After a few seconds they'd disappear again and have to speak again to be seen.
So I finished off the weakened MOB and stood there waiting for his ghost to speak and reveal his ghostly form. That's when you could hit them with a Resurrect spell. So he spoke and revealed himself right in front of me, he wanted a Res. That's when I asked for the final time, "Do you want help?"
That makes sense, but that's why the fleece us for all that money. To find a way. Seriously, though, I'm sure there could be some sort of graduated system. Mobs get harder as you level. Maybe death penalty could be tied to that. Just an idea. I agree that you don't want noobs being driven away (I enjoy pvp loot games, but asswipes tend to prey on noobs and hurt the very game that they want people to play..I guess along with asswipe, I'll add dumbasses).
I don't mean to include UO's PvP in this, just their death system. It's enough that you don't want to die, but that's all. And it allows friendly players to completely mitigate any penalty at all.
I think you've got something there, talking about a "graduated system." Why not build a game similar to UO and it's death penalty and safeguards as mentioned, and then make "The Wilds" increasingly dangerous as players explore out into them? Fewer and fewer Wandering Healers (the NPCs), harder to find Shrines, more distant towns, etc. Now, as players skill up and become stronger, and as they learn the game more, and build lasting connections with other players who they know are trustworthy, then the game gets more challenging and death becomes more of a penalty, but not something they can't handle due to advancing character and game skill.
So, you go from a death penalty with all kinds of NPC/game help, to one with little help outside of your friends. That's as you advance in the game, and go farther into the wild explorations of the game world.
Well, over the years I've felt death penalties need to be somewhat laxed given how much more prevalent DDOs attacks are and even just simple latency issues on the part of the company. You dont want to die and incur a massive penalty if it wasn't your fault, so there kind of should be a middle ground. I will say that from experience in the past, a decent penalty like maybe 10% exp loss if the rate to gain exp is at like 0.1% per mob or something does kind of help some people take whatever they are doing a bit more seriously and not grief others if they are playing together. It does feel like there's a lot more laziness and griefing in modern mmorpgs, probably because you lose nothing at cap except maybe durability which probably wont break a character's bank in most games.
I love this topic whenever it comes up which is usually 3 or 4 times a year.
If it comes back so frequently, there must be a good reason.
In games we are supposed to win or lose. In MMOs it is more debatable. Hence the problem.
Moreover, players complain about mainstream WOW-like games, but as soon as we bring the topic of loss nobody's there anymore... Most of people like the carebear experience.
Fortunately some got bored of it and bought Elden Ring. At least it shows that there is a public for challenging games.
Elden Ring is challenging? Not according to these folks who completed the entire mainline in 21 to 30 mins.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would actually like some more story related consequences for dying. You keep all your experience. The temple resurrects you, for a fee or a service, leaving you with a "Resurrection" debuff, a 24 hour debuff which can only be removed early by visiting your corpse. The temple can summon your goods on your corpse (for another fee), otherwise it is free to loot after 12 RL hours and disappears completely in another 12 hours. All your open quests are cancelled and you have to start them all over. And mostly, all the NPCs are leery of you -- "Are you sure I can trust you after that last failure?" -or- "Why are you naked... again?"
It forces the player to more judiciously use the bank ("But, all my money was on my corpse!" "Well, the junior priests do need <insert level appropriate, but humiliating task>."), and gives some incentive to visit the body soon.
No matter how a death penalty is incorporated, it all comes down to how a game implements it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Interesting, because this also the case with games.
So what is wasting time in a time wasting activity?
Leisure activities aren't a waste of time. They enhance one's well being.
Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome, or an outcome similarly desirable. This applies regardless of the nature of the time spent and the outcome desired.
Whether work or play we only have so much time to devote to either. The wasting of it in either case is best kept to a minimum.
This is more of a philosophical argument than anything.
I enjoy playing video games in my free time, but I don't view it as productive time.
I didn't say time spent on games is productive. I said that as a leisure activity they enhance one's well being. An activity does not need to be productive to be beneficial.
However, maintaining a good state of well being has been shown to positively influence one's productivity. So, while leisure activities aren't inherently productive they are not totally divorced from it.
It's the same with many other things, such as maintaining a healthy diet, getting sufficient rest and so forth. While not inherently productive they are all contribute to one's well being and enhance the productivity of those that do such.
It's not a matter of philosophy. It's a practical aspect of life in constant evidence.
Interesting, because this also the case with games.
So what is wasting time in a time wasting activity?
Leisure activities aren't a waste of time. They enhance one's well being.
Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome, or an outcome similarly desirable. This applies regardless of the nature of the time spent and the outcome desired.
Whether work or play we only have so much time to devote to either. The wasting of it in either case is best kept to a minimum.
I knew this one would trigger people!
However, the following sentence applied to games IS the problem:
"Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome"
People think that losing in a game is a waste of time. Proof is that you have toxicity in raids. A lot of people simply refuse to accept loss as a normal outcome. Which is one of the reason why some people play your usual MMO. No loss unless you engage in elite activities.
Example:
In PSO:NGS, I can kill thousands of mobs. No problem. If I die. No problem. I respawn and continue the slaughter until I get bored.
What of my response suggested I was triggered?
In difficult activities such as raids failure is part of process of mastering the content. Each attempt one learns from contributes to that goal and in itself is success.
However, once success has become routine for a guild in that raid should it then fail it will be considered a waste of time by those involved... because at that point it is.
Interesting, because this also the case with games.
So what is wasting time in a time wasting activity?
Leisure activities aren't a waste of time. They enhance one's well being.
Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome, or an outcome similarly desirable. This applies regardless of the nature of the time spent and the outcome desired.
Whether work or play we only have so much time to devote to either. The wasting of it in either case is best kept to a minimum.
I knew this one would trigger people!
However, the following sentence applied to games IS the problem:
"Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome"
People think that losing in a game is a waste of time. Proof is that you have toxicity in raids. A lot of people simply refuse to accept loss as a normal outcome. Which is one of the reason why some people play your usual MMO. No loss unless you engage in elite activities.
Example:
In PSO:NGS, I can kill thousands of mobs. No problem. If I die. No problem. I respawn and continue the slaughter until I get bored.
Comments
It may not be to your preference, but there are those that delete their characters on death because that consequence enhances their play enjoyment.
It's not as though harsh penalties for death are unprecedented in MMORPGs. They are now long since out of style but they once existed nonetheless.
Many still express a desire for their restoration, to varying degree.
Apparently some feel such designs to be at least better than the current trends.
Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope?
Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
https://www.speedrun.com/eldenring
Though apparently they are a bit slow as one video I saw claimed the record was down to under six minutes, but I'm assuming under different rules.
As with most games they are only challenging until one learns their patterns, then not so much
Conquering all of free space in EVE? Has never been done, now that's my idea of challenging, conquering the stars, not "dancing" with them.
YMMV
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I want to play the game I just don't want to waste time with imposed timers or artificial handicaps if you ignore the timers. What I want to do is get right back in there and try to beat whatever kicked my ass.
Corpse runs and other death penalties with rezz sickness are just idiotic time wasters that keep me from using my time to actually play the game, IMO of course.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The people who like to iron man an MMO with game or self imposed penalties are the exception, not the rule. Most players just want to have a good time. These artificial roadblocks turn fun into tedium. Also, corpse ruins, rezz sickness, and full looting of your corpse are truly shitty punitive features, but I think the most sinister was the actual losing of hard won experience points upon character death. That has to be the biggest game developer dick move, not to mention a big old FU to the players. I'm glad so many of these daft ideas have fallen by the wayside.
Exactly. The time wasted in failed attempts provides penalty in itself. I agree that it doesn't need to be embellished further, but opinion varies a good bit on the issue.
However if players have the possibility to die 90% less that's only challenging with severe enough death penalty that those who take their time to ensure they die less will be faster.
Not exactly.
Ideally, playing a game should be fun, an activity that brings joy.
I mean, sure, there are some people that want to turn their game into a job, and personally I think those people fucked in the head (Feel free to try and change my mind), and should be given more work at work, till they learn that games should not be confused with work.
Anyway, for most people, games are a means of joy, after all, if you are not having fun, why bother playing that game or doing that hobby.
And In reality, games like MMO's are No different than any other hobby, from tabletop games, to fishing, the goal is to generate a fun time passing activity.
Which brings us to death pens.
One could argue that they provide a risk/thrill to the game, to lose 'all that time and effort' in one single mistake.
Even if the time and effort to get there was somewhat fun, losing it takes away that enjoyment, and then becomes the process of earning it back again, and thus cycle quickly runs the risk of becoming something like a Sisyphus effect, where he was condemned to push a rock up a hill, only to have to fall back down at the last moment, and thus an eternal cycle of pushing the rock up the hill.
So, losing that "Fun" advancement to an "Unfun" death penalty, is a fine line between the game being joy and tedium.
Where they line is drawn, depends on the player.
For some, just getting their ass beat is enough of a loss to them, that any additional penalty becomes insult to injury, while others, unless they are dragging their nuts across a cheese grater, while playing Perma death, they are just not having fun.
Leisure activities aren't a waste of time. They enhance one's well being.
Time wasted is that spent that does not result in the desired outcome, or an outcome similarly desirable. This applies regardless of the nature of the time spent and the outcome desired.
Whether work or play we only have so much time to devote to either. The wasting of it in either case is best kept to a minimum.
Not everyone can even learn that many patterns or maintain the reflexes to react to that many patterns so quickly, especially flawlessly.
This is like watching a video of Carlos Santana nail a solo and declaring the guitar an easy instrument to play because of it.
I enjoy playing video games in my free time, but I don't view it as productive time.
The matter is more complex than it seems.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think you've got something there, talking about a "graduated system."
Why not build a game similar to UO and it's death penalty and safeguards as mentioned, and then make "The Wilds" increasingly dangerous as players explore out into them?
Fewer and fewer Wandering Healers (the NPCs), harder to find Shrines, more distant towns, etc.
Now, as players skill up and become stronger, and as they learn the game more, and build lasting connections with other players who they know are trustworthy,
then the game gets more challenging and death becomes more of a penalty, but not something they can't handle due to advancing character and game skill.
So, you go from a death penalty with all kinds of NPC/game help, to one with little help outside of your friends. That's as you advance in the game, and go farther into the wild explorations of the game world.
Once upon a time....
https://mussila.com/the-11-easiest-musical-instruments-to-learn/
My point still stands, nothing too difficult to master with some practice, and I never liked Carlos, there are better.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I didn't say time spent on games is productive. I said that as a leisure activity they enhance one's well being. An activity does not need to be productive to be beneficial.
However, maintaining a good state of well being has been shown to positively influence one's productivity. So, while leisure activities aren't inherently productive they are not totally divorced from it.
It's the same with many other things, such as maintaining a healthy diet, getting sufficient rest and so forth. While not inherently productive they are all contribute to one's well being and enhance the productivity of those that do such.
It's not a matter of philosophy. It's a practical aspect of life in constant evidence.
It's character building.
What of my response suggested I was triggered?
In difficult activities such as raids failure is part of process of mastering the content. Each attempt one learns from contributes to that goal and in itself is success.
However, once success has become routine for a guild in that raid should it then fail it will be considered a waste of time by those involved... because at that point it is.