I think it's disingenuous to claim a game like Lost Ark is for children by not being challenging enough.
Sure, like most MMOs today the open world content is not difficult, but no one can really talk unless they show me proof they beat all of the dungeons, Abyssals and top end raids on level without being carried.
I find many (most) bemoaning a lack of challenge in MMORPGS today have often not actually completed or even attempted the content which is present in most of the
So yes, one does have to play in order to speak intelligently about how challenging the content is, but certainly one can decide it's not for them without actually doing so.
I mean, no matter how many people say different, I'm never eating sushi, just not going to happen.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I haven't played ESO in 6 years or more but that certainly wasn't the case back then. Did you get past the starter area?
I've been playing mmos for over 20 years and I can't think of a one, new or old, where abilities don't matter.
Yeah, I can't wait for him to get into a dungeon, or even some delves, and getting his ass handed to him because he "press 1,2,3,4 just to watch the flash".
He has been ranting and raving about how easy ESO is for years based mostly on videos he has watched of players who know what they're doing and can handle large pulls of 15+ mobs to grind XP.
He went into the game with an agenda.
No way he will ever admit to having pulled 6 mobs and died because that wouldn't jive with what he always "knew."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I haven't played ESO in 6 years or more but that certainly wasn't the case back then. Did you get past the starter area?
I've been playing mmos for over 20 years and I can't think of a one, new or old, where abilities don't matter.
Yeah, I can't wait for him to get into a dungeon, or even some delves, and getting his ass handed to him because he "press 1,2,3,4 just to watch the flash".
He has been ranting and raving about how easy ESO is for years based mostly on videos he has watched of players who know what they're doing and can handle large pulls of 15+ mobs to grind XP.
He went into the game with an agenda.
No way he will ever admit to having pulled 6 mobs and died because that wouldn't jive with what he always "knew."
As we say in my country, "Tu prêches un convaincu".
Translation being, you are preaching to someone who is already convinced.
I think most of us know what kind of credit to give to delete's posts. He's not the only one to post bullshit about games he never played, though.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Get me one as well, we will drop Korrigan off when NW was still a mega hit and the rest of us can go back to EQ/WoW days.
Yeah, except I was playing UO when you probably didn't know what a MMORPG is
Quite happy to drop you off in the UO golden age, that would be when I was playing Underlight, 98/99 can't be sure. Let me guess, Felucca must have been yours and back then I assume there were no European servers?
I mean, no matter how many people say different, I'm never eating sushi, just not going to happen.
I wouldn't either if I lived in Tampa
Raw Pacific NW Salmon and Tuna is delicious though.
But I used to be like you until I started dating a woman who was a sushi fiend.
At first I got away with the miso soup, teriyaki on rice and tempura that sushi restaurants always also have, but eventually I took the plunge and now I love the stuff especially when dipped in a bit of soy sauce and a lot of wasabi (basically green horseradish but more intense) for the kick.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I mean, no matter how many people say different, I'm never eating sushi, just not going to happen.
I wouldn't either if I lived in Tampa
Raw Pacific NW Salmon and Tuna is delicious though.
But I used to be like you until I started dating a woman who was a sushi fiend.
At first I got away with the miso soup, teriyaki on rice and tempura that sushi restaurants always also have, but eventually I took the plunge and now I love the stuff especially when dipped in a bit of soy sauce and a lot of wasabi (basically green horseradish but more intense) for the kick.
Tuna is definitely the way to start with sushi. Even when properly cooked, tuna is almost raw anyway.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Get me one as well, we will drop Korrigan off when NW was still a mega hit and the rest of us can go back to EQ/WoW days.
Yeah, except I was playing UO when you probably didn't know what a MMORPG is
Quite happy to drop you off in the UO golden age, that would be when I was playing Underlight, 98/99 can't be sure. Let me guess, Felucca must have been yours and back then I assume there were no European servers?
The connexion was a fucking nightmare.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I miss the time when more people knowing about what they were talking about posted on forums... seems like nowadays, more of those posting don't even play the games they are talking about, nor any game at all.
And @Amaranthar ... Delete has a big ego problem, he feels the need to find ways to be superior to others all the time, his post about 7 years olds is just another drip in an already huge ocean.
You don't have to play these games to know. You can take a quick look at their level based gear and the numbers to see. Logic should be able to tell you what it all means for a MMORPG. But that's a barrier that many of you simply refuse to breach.
Mainly because the scripts this design is built for is too important to many of you and your beer money, I presume.
If you like games where the "power gap" in PvP isn't important, try ESO for instance.
In New World too, once max level, the power gap between item level 500 and 625 is not huge, and you get there pretty fast anyway. You can get 550 as soon as you hit 60 anyway. It's not like WoW, where gear plays a bigger role than skill.
I wouldn't be doing World PvP in a game where I get steamrolled because I didn't grind for months before. I do World PvP in ESO and NW.
The combat type and character development is also a big part of why PvP is more fun and balanced in some games than others. More "action" oriented combat tends to rely more on the skill of the player behind the keyboard than the gear of the character inside the computer.
And yes, you actually have to play those games to know. Otherwise you're just another of those guys who are like "Hey, I didn't see that movie, but I heard is sucks". How many good movies would I have missed with such an attitude.
First of all, I wasn't talking about only PvP.
Then again, because of the power gaps in ESO, they had to put in Scaling. It's the Scaling that removes any feeling of advancement because it literally changes things just to suit your current character.
And I didn't say that power gaps aren't important, they should be there. Just not to this god-mode extreme like in games that don't have the Scaling to "fix" what's broken. Again, that "fix" removes any real feeling of advancement because everything is changed, just to fit you despite your level.
I miss the time when more people knowing about what they were talking about posted on forums... seems like nowadays, more of those posting don't even play the games they are talking about, nor any game at all.
And @Amaranthar ... Delete has a big ego problem, he feels the need to find ways to be superior to others all the time, his post about 7 years olds is just another drip in an already huge ocean.
You don't have to play these games to know. You can take a quick look at their level based gear and the numbers to see. Logic should be able to tell you what it all means for a MMORPG. But that's a barrier that many of you simply refuse to breach.
Mainly because the scripts this design is built for is too important to many of you and your beer money, I presume.
If you like games where the "power gap" in PvP isn't important, try ESO for instance.
In New World too, once max level, the power gap between item level 500 and 625 is not huge, and you get there pretty fast anyway. You can get 550 as soon as you hit 60 anyway. It's not like WoW, where gear plays a bigger role than skill.
I wouldn't be doing World PvP in a game where I get steamrolled because I didn't grind for months before. I do World PvP in ESO and NW.
The combat type and character development is also a big part of why PvP is more fun and balanced in some games than others. More "action" oriented combat tends to rely more on the skill of the player behind the keyboard than the gear of the character inside the computer.
And yes, you actually have to play those games to know. Otherwise you're just another of those guys who are like "Hey, I didn't see that movie, but I heard is sucks". How many good movies would I have missed with such an attitude.
First of all, I wasn't talking about only PvP.
Then again, because of the power gaps in ESO, they had to put in Scaling. It's the Scaling that removes any feeling of advancement because it literally changes things just to suit your current character.
And I didn't say that power gaps aren't important, they should be there. Just not to this god-mode extreme like in games that don't have the Scaling to "fix" what's broken. Again, that "fix" removes any real feeling of advancement because everything is changed, just to fit you despite your level.
I played ESO at launch and IMO the leveling experience sucked. I felt like a destroyer fleet clearing submarines in a meticulous z pattern in order to not step out my lane which was particularly annoying if one over leveled the zone content rendering it useless in terms of rewards.
When I returned 7 years later I started in VVARDENFALL and honestly struggled at first, playing a DK no less.
I recall playing cat and mouse with a keep full of NPCs who occasionally ganged up and killed me while I tried to farm them for my early gear, not to mention the river troll I kept backing into during the fight.
Once mastered I set out to tackle the zone...ooh, what are those skulls on the map, head over to check it out, look, a couple of prettying ponies, how hard could they be?
Even after a bunch of high levels showed up I spent much of the fight going flat again and again, no level scaling here it seems.
I crushed it in normal quest dungeons so I eagerly ran into a world dungeon solo and with no other players around I got crushed.
I was to experience the same again at max level when I first visited the adventure zone Craglorn.
If @delete is looking for challenge he should head there solo immediately, he'll find what he is seeking.
After I was like SP 300 plus I tackled an "easy" four man, couple of gun toting mechs at the end, took my tank DK like 2 hrs to complete and at least 25 mins to beat the twin bosses.
I could go on with more PVE challenge content but if folks are not willing to seek it out why bother really?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Get me one as well, we will drop Korrigan off when NW was still a mega hit and the rest of us can go back to EQ/WoW days.
Yeah, except I was playing UO when you probably didn't know what a MMORPG is
Quite happy to drop you off in the UO golden age, that would be when I was playing Underlight, 98/99 can't be sure. Let me guess, Felucca must have been yours and back then I assume there were no European servers?
The connexion was a fucking nightmare.
My issue was more the time zones, eventually I moved on because not enough people were playing when I played.
I miss the time when more people knowing about what they were talking about posted on forums... seems like nowadays, more of those posting don't even play the games they are talking about, nor any game at all.
And @Amaranthar ... Delete has a big ego problem, he feels the need to find ways to be superior to others all the time, his post about 7 years olds is just another drip in an already huge ocean.
You don't have to play these games to know. You can take a quick look at their level based gear and the numbers to see. Logic should be able to tell you what it all means for a MMORPG. But that's a barrier that many of you simply refuse to breach.
Mainly because the scripts this design is built for is too important to many of you and your beer money, I presume.
If you like games where the "power gap" in PvP isn't important, try ESO for instance.
In New World too, once max level, the power gap between item level 500 and 625 is not huge, and you get there pretty fast anyway. You can get 550 as soon as you hit 60 anyway. It's not like WoW, where gear plays a bigger role than skill.
I wouldn't be doing World PvP in a game where I get steamrolled because I didn't grind for months before. I do World PvP in ESO and NW.
The combat type and character development is also a big part of why PvP is more fun and balanced in some games than others. More "action" oriented combat tends to rely more on the skill of the player behind the keyboard than the gear of the character inside the computer.
And yes, you actually have to play those games to know. Otherwise you're just another of those guys who are like "Hey, I didn't see that movie, but I heard is sucks". How many good movies would I have missed with such an attitude.
First of all, I wasn't talking about only PvP.
Then again, because of the power gaps in ESO, they had to put in Scaling. It's the Scaling that removes any feeling of advancement because it literally changes things just to suit your current character.
And I didn't say that power gaps aren't important, they should be there. Just not to this god-mode extreme like in games that don't have the Scaling to "fix" what's broken. Again, that "fix" removes any real feeling of advancement because everything is changed, just to fit you despite your level.
I played ESO at launch and IMO the leveling experience sucked. I felt like a destroyer fleet clearing submarines in a meticulous z pattern in order to not step out my lane which was particularly annoying if one over leveled the zone content rendering it useless in terms of rewards.
When I returned 7 years later I started in VVARDENFALL and honestly struggled at first, playing a DK no less.
I recall playing cat and mouse with a keep full of NPCs who occasionally ganged up and killed me while I tried to farm them for my early gear, not to mention the river troll I kept backing into during the fight.
Once mastered I set out to tackle the zone...ooh, what are those skulls on the map, head over to check it out, look, a couple of prettying ponies, how hard could they be?
Even after a bunch of high levels showed up I spent much of the fight going flat again and again, no level scaling here it seems.
I crushed it in normal quest dungeons so I eagerly ran into a world dungeon solo and with no other players around I got crushed.
I was to experience the same again at max level when I first visited the adventure zone Craglorn.
If @delete is looking for challenge he should head there solo immediately, he'll find what he is seeking.
After I was like SP 300 plus I tackled an "easy" four man, couple of gun toting mechs at the end, took my tank DK like 2 hrs to complete and at least 25 mins to beat the twin bosses.
I could go on with more PVE challenge content but if folks are not willing to seek it out why bother really?
The problem with saying you can find difficulty in modern MMOs is that it is in spikes. So you can wonder along naked without weapons completing quests and then you are trounced by the one location in the zone that is dangerous or the dungeon you can't do alone. Now of course I am exaggerating, but PvE used to prepare you for what was to come, now it does not.
Don't people have a brain? I KNOW the stove is hot. I don't HAVE to touch it to KNOW. That analogy is because I KNOW "hot garbage" (for me) when I see it. I don't HAVE to roll around in it to find out.
But if you feel the need, go ahead. It doesn't "negate" opinions you disagree with
Yeah shit stinks and we can predict that it stinks.
Now go be a game or movie reviewer and review games or movies without playing them or watching the movies.
I'll get some popcorn and watch everyone's reactions to your reviews.
We can guess whether we will like a game based on previous experience or what we have heard or seen about it but only a moron thinks that he KNOWS the game without playing it.
I agree. I'm not speaking of "professional" reviewers, am I?
I'm speaking about players of games
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The problem though is what modern MMO is not easymode? ESO normal PvE seems rather easy even in this age of easy MMO's, but it is hard to find a MMO that challenges you somewhat at the beginning and ramps up later on.
And they wonder why classic does so well, classic ESO for anyone? I can tell you that when I started at launch the game challenged you.
Your right Scot, but the problem with ESO is 98% of the game is crazy easy and people here want to talk about the 2% ?..... That's just crazy. Open world is spam your left mouse and press 1,2,3,4 if you feel frisk but that's optional. The game is built for 5 year old's and Korrigan.
The problem though is what modern MMO is not easymode? ESO normal PvE seems rather easy even in this age of easy MMO's, but it is hard to find a MMO that challenges you somewhat at the beginning and ramps up later on.
And they wonder why classic does so well, classic ESO for anyone? I can tell you that when I started at launch the game challenged you.
I was thinking the same thing. What mmorpg has challenge in the everyday regular ol' mobs?
The only times I've ever died in any mmorpg (apart from pvp in L2) was if I dared to go into a cave or ruin and get surrounded.
Otherwise, other than special bosses in the overland, there are no mmorpg's that offer a challenge with regular mobs.
So ok Delete, which mmorpg's have you played that offer that? Don't say World of Warcraft.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I was thinking the same thing. What mmorpg has challenge in the everyday regular ol' mobs?
The only times I've ever died in any mmorpg (apart from pvp in L2) was if I dared to go into a cave or ruin and get surrounded.
Otherwise, other than special bosses in the overland, there are no mmorpg's that offer a challenge with regular mobs.
So ok Delete, which mmorpg's have you played that offer that? Don't say World of Warcraft.
I know I'm not delete, but the last MMORPG I played that had challenging world content during the leveling process was LotRO, back at launch.
Not that the situation lasted long. Before Moria, they already added a ton of solo zones so you could bypass the group content, then from Moria onwards they just straight up avoided putting challenging content into the leveling process, either solo or group.
So, yeh, 15 years since the leveling process in an MMO was enjoyable for me.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I miss the time when more people knowing about what they were talking about posted on forums... seems like nowadays, more of those posting don't even play the games they are talking about, nor any game at all.
And @Amaranthar ... Delete has a big ego problem, he feels the need to find ways to be superior to others all the time, his post about 7 years olds is just another drip in an already huge ocean.
You don't have to play these games to know. You can take a quick look at their level based gear and the numbers to see. Logic should be able to tell you what it all means for a MMORPG. But that's a barrier that many of you simply refuse to breach.
Mainly because the scripts this design is built for is too important to many of you and your beer money, I presume.
If you like games where the "power gap" in PvP isn't important, try ESO for instance.
In New World too, once max level, the power gap between item level 500 and 625 is not huge, and you get there pretty fast anyway. You can get 550 as soon as you hit 60 anyway. It's not like WoW, where gear plays a bigger role than skill.
I wouldn't be doing World PvP in a game where I get steamrolled because I didn't grind for months before. I do World PvP in ESO and NW.
The combat type and character development is also a big part of why PvP is more fun and balanced in some games than others. More "action" oriented combat tends to rely more on the skill of the player behind the keyboard than the gear of the character inside the computer.
And yes, you actually have to play those games to know. Otherwise you're just another of those guys who are like "Hey, I didn't see that movie, but I heard is sucks". How many good movies would I have missed with such an attitude.
First of all, I wasn't talking about only PvP.
Then again, because of the power gaps in ESO, they had to put in Scaling. It's the Scaling that removes any feeling of advancement because it literally changes things just to suit your current character.
And I didn't say that power gaps aren't important, they should be there. Just not to this god-mode extreme like in games that don't have the Scaling to "fix" what's broken. Again, that "fix" removes any real feeling of advancement because everything is changed, just to fit you despite your level.
I played ESO at launch and IMO the leveling experience sucked. I felt like a destroyer fleet clearing submarines in a meticulous z pattern in order to not step out my lane which was particularly annoying if one over leveled the zone content rendering it useless in terms of rewards.
When I returned 7 years later I started in VVARDENFALL and honestly struggled at first, playing a DK no less.
I recall playing cat and mouse with a keep full of NPCs who occasionally ganged up and killed me while I tried to farm them for my early gear, not to mention the river troll I kept backing into during the fight.
Once mastered I set out to tackle the zone...ooh, what are those skulls on the map, head over to check it out, look, a couple of prettying ponies, how hard could they be?
Even after a bunch of high levels showed up I spent much of the fight going flat again and again, no level scaling here it seems.
I crushed it in normal quest dungeons so I eagerly ran into a world dungeon solo and with no other players around I got crushed.
I was to experience the same again at max level when I first visited the adventure zone Craglorn.
If @delete is looking for challenge he should head there solo immediately, he'll find what he is seeking.
After I was like SP 300 plus I tackled an "easy" four man, couple of gun toting mechs at the end, took my tank DK like 2 hrs to complete and at least 25 mins to beat the twin bosses.
I could go on with more PVE challenge content but if folks are not willing to seek it out why bother really?
The problem with saying you can find difficulty in modern MMOs is that it is in spikes. So you can wonder along naked without weapons completing quests and then you are trounced by the one location in the zone that is dangerous or the dungeon you can't do alone. Now of course I am exaggerating, but PvE used to prepare you for what was to come, now it does not.
Yep, that's just it. It's not that you CAN'T find challenging content, it's that you USUALLY DON'T. I noticed someone said that someone else could never handle a 15 MOB (I think it was) pull, and accused them of not even being able to handle a 6 MOB pull, as if that's an easy one. And yet, some folks are defending their games as "not easy"? Common guys, 6 MOBs should be a challenge, outside of rats and the like. Heck, with these Power Gaps as big as they are, and without Scaling, you can go back 10 (or 20 or whatever) levels and take on 6 DRAGONS with ease. And that just screams in the face of "Game", "World", and anything else.
I was thinking the same thing. What mmorpg has challenge in the everyday regular ol' mobs?
The only times I've ever died in any mmorpg (apart from pvp in L2) was if I dared to go into a cave or ruin and get surrounded.
Otherwise, other than special bosses in the overland, there are no mmorpg's that offer a challenge with regular mobs.
So ok Delete, which mmorpg's have you played that offer that? Don't say World of Warcraft.
I know I'm not delete, but the last MMORPG I played that had challenging world content during the leveling process was LotRO, back at launch.
Not that the situation lasted long. Before Moria, they already added a ton of solo zones so you could bypass the group content, then from Moria onwards they just straight up avoided putting challenging content into the leveling process, either solo or group.
So, yeh, 15 years since the leveling process in an MMO was enjoyable for me.
I would say, from my Lord of the Rings Online experience, that it was one of the closed betas that has challenge.. I didn't recall any challenge in the world at launch EXCEPT my aforementioned going into a cave and getting overrun.
Though come to think of it, on my champion I had some issues so perhaps it was more difficult at launch for some classes. I then changed to guardian and had no issues other than taking longer to kill thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No seriously, very few players will stick around if the game's content exceeds their ability to successful complete it and get their rewards.
So the dilemma is how do developers create open world content that even I can overcome while keeping it challenging enough for the more hardcore?
One solution was to make content hard enough to require a group at a minimum, up to having a talented, well geared and good looking (my personal ability) group of players to overcome it.
So that didn't work, especially when me and the 5 gazillion like minded gamers (yes, we broke MMOs) refuse to group with all you randos, and guess what, being lazy arses we're often willing to spend more money than most, so devs clearly want to keep our business.
What to do? Exactly what happened, create broad, mostly easy open world content to keep the masses happy, them add in increasingly more difficult or challenging tiers of content for those who seek it.
Oh sure, the plebes are going to bitch when they can't get equivalent cool rewards while still being lazy, but then again, that's what cash shops are for, yes?
ESO is very good at providing many tiers of content difficulty and it's going to vary by individual ability how much so.
There's some folks who have the most difficult content on farm status, but even they find ways to improve the challenge by say, subbing in a few noobs to see if the still succeded while carrying Leroy Jenkins and his friends. (They even charge money for this, win all the way around, yes?)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I miss the time when more people knowing about what they were talking about posted on forums... seems like nowadays, more of those posting don't even play the games they are talking about, nor any game at all.
And @Amaranthar ... Delete has a big ego problem, he feels the need to find ways to be superior to others all the time, his post about 7 years olds is just another drip in an already huge ocean.
You don't have to play these games to know. You can take a quick look at their level based gear and the numbers to see. Logic should be able to tell you what it all means for a MMORPG. But that's a barrier that many of you simply refuse to breach.
Mainly because the scripts this design is built for is too important to many of you and your beer money, I presume.
If you like games where the "power gap" in PvP isn't important, try ESO for instance.
In New World too, once max level, the power gap between item level 500 and 625 is not huge, and you get there pretty fast anyway. You can get 550 as soon as you hit 60 anyway. It's not like WoW, where gear plays a bigger role than skill.
I wouldn't be doing World PvP in a game where I get steamrolled because I didn't grind for months before. I do World PvP in ESO and NW.
The combat type and character development is also a big part of why PvP is more fun and balanced in some games than others. More "action" oriented combat tends to rely more on the skill of the player behind the keyboard than the gear of the character inside the computer.
And yes, you actually have to play those games to know. Otherwise you're just another of those guys who are like "Hey, I didn't see that movie, but I heard is sucks". How many good movies would I have missed with such an attitude.
First of all, I wasn't talking about only PvP.
Then again, because of the power gaps in ESO, they had to put in Scaling. It's the Scaling that removes any feeling of advancement because it literally changes things just to suit your current character.
And I didn't say that power gaps aren't important, they should be there. Just not to this god-mode extreme like in games that don't have the Scaling to "fix" what's broken. Again, that "fix" removes any real feeling of advancement because everything is changed, just to fit you despite your level.
I played ESO at launch and IMO the leveling experience sucked. I felt like a destroyer fleet clearing submarines in a meticulous z pattern in order to not step out my lane which was particularly annoying if one over leveled the zone content rendering it useless in terms of rewards.
When I returned 7 years later I started in VVARDENFALL and honestly struggled at first, playing a DK no less.
I recall playing cat and mouse with a keep full of NPCs who occasionally ganged up and killed me while I tried to farm them for my early gear, not to mention the river troll I kept backing into during the fight.
Once mastered I set out to tackle the zone...ooh, what are those skulls on the map, head over to check it out, look, a couple of prettying ponies, how hard could they be?
Even after a bunch of high levels showed up I spent much of the fight going flat again and again, no level scaling here it seems.
I crushed it in normal quest dungeons so I eagerly ran into a world dungeon solo and with no other players around I got crushed.
I was to experience the same again at max level when I first visited the adventure zone Craglorn.
If @delete is looking for challenge he should head there solo immediately, he'll find what he is seeking.
After I was like SP 300 plus I tackled an "easy" four man, couple of gun toting mechs at the end, took my tank DK like 2 hrs to complete and at least 25 mins to beat the twin bosses.
I could go on with more PVE challenge content but if folks are not willing to seek it out why bother really?
The problem with saying you can find difficulty in modern MMOs is that it is in spikes. So you can wonder along naked without weapons completing quests and then you are trounced by the one location in the zone that is dangerous or the dungeon you can't do alone. Now of course I am exaggerating, but PvE used to prepare you for what was to come, now it does not.
Yep, that's just it. It's not that you CAN'T find challenging content, it's that you USUALLY DON'T. I noticed someone said that someone else could never handle a 15 MOB (I think it was) pull, and accused them of not even being able to handle a 6 MOB pull, as if that's an easy one. And yet, some folks are defending their games as "not easy"? Common guys, 6 MOBs should be a challenge, outside of rats and the like. Heck, with these Power Gaps as big as they are, and without Scaling, you can go back 10 (or 20 or whatever) levels and take on 6 DRAGONS with ease. And that just screams in the face of "Game", "World", and anything else.
What kind of games do we really want anyways?
First, if you'd actually played the game you wouldn't have to guess about dragons, which in ESO require a group to do in the open world against just 1 dragon.
Secondly the opposite as seen recently in Embers Adrift of 6 player beating on one bandit for 3+ minutes is about as much fun as watching paint dry.
Third (and this also goes to the point of actually playing games) AOE grinding big pulls is neither unique to ESO nor new. This has been a thing since the second gen MMOs. And you do need to be selective about which mobs you grind. A pull of 2 or 3 giants and/or their camp buddies, mammoths, in ESO will kill most players.
No offense meant about watching paint dry if that's something you enjoy. To each their own, but personally I want to play, not watch paint dry
As others have said, there is very easy and very tough content in ESO and everything in between. That isn't one of ESO's warts. It's just plain common sense game development for the wide demographics that MMOs attract and have always attracted. Not only that but "must group" design and/or "always intense" everywhere are shitty design because the reality of "must group" is that you literally spend hours not playing and just assembling and reassembling groups and waiting for others to come back from being AFK, game crashes, etc., and "always intense" is fucking exhausting.
MMOs have evolved into content of varying degrees of difficulty and some required grouping not because developers are idiots or because current MMOers are weak casual noobs. They have evolved into what they are because players actually want variety and choices to do a range of easy to hard activities in the same game, instead of having some guy named Adolph telling you how you must always play.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
No seriously, very few players will stick around if the game's content exceeds their ability to successful complete it and get their rewards.
So the dilemma is how do developers create open world content that even I can overcome while keeping it challenging enough for the more hardcore?
One solution was to make content hard enough to require a group at a minimum, up to having a talented, well geared and good looking (my personal ability) group of players to overcome it.
So that didn't work, especially when me and the 5 gazillion like minded gamers (yes, we broke MMOs) refuse to group with all you randos, and guess what, being lazy arses we're often willing to spend more money than most, so devs clearly want to keep our business.
What to do? Exactly what happened, create broad, mostly easy open world content to keep the masses happy, them add in increasingly more difficult or challenging tiers of content for those who seek it.
Oh sure, the plebes are going to bitch when they can't get equivalent cool rewards while still being lazy, but then again, that's what cash shops are for, yes?
ESO is very good at providing many tiers of content difficulty and it's going to vary by individual ability how much so.
There's some folks who have the most difficult content on farm status, but even they find ways to improve the challenge by say, subbing in a few noobs to see if the still succeded while carrying Leroy Jenkins and his friends. (They even charge money for this, win all the way around, yes?)
There's a large number of wussy players, no doubt (and com'on, you're not one of them). But there are also a large number of players that want something more. More challenge, more worldly experience, more excitement, etc. At this moment in MMORPG history, it's true that if you build it (right), they will come. Because no one else is doing it.
So we have lost Delete, hope you are back soon Delete.
Also some of the exchanges between me and Korrigan were removed, really no idea why. Though I might have missed a lot overnight, neither of us had said anything reproachable.
You don't have to play these games to know. You can take a quick look at their level based gear and the numbers to see. Logic should be able to tell you what it all means for a MMORPG. But that's a barrier that many of you simply refuse to breach.
Mainly because the scripts this design is built for is too important to many of you and your beer money, I presume.
If you like games where the "power gap" in PvP isn't important, try ESO for instance.
In New World too, once max level, the power gap between item level 500 and 625 is not huge, and you get there pretty fast anyway. You can get 550 as soon as you hit 60 anyway. It's not like WoW, where gear plays a bigger role than skill.
I wouldn't be doing World PvP in a game where I get steamrolled because I didn't grind for months before. I do World PvP in ESO and NW.
The combat type and character development is also a big part of why PvP is more fun and balanced in some games than others. More "action" oriented combat tends to rely more on the skill of the player behind the keyboard than the gear of the character inside the computer.
And yes, you actually have to play those games to know. Otherwise you're just another of those guys who are like "Hey, I didn't see that movie, but I heard is sucks". How many good movies would I have missed with such an attitude.
First of all, I wasn't talking about only PvP.
Then again, because of the power gaps in ESO, they had to put in Scaling. It's the Scaling that removes any feeling of advancement because it literally changes things just to suit your current character.
And I didn't say that power gaps aren't important, they should be there. Just not to this god-mode extreme like in games that don't have the Scaling to "fix" what's broken. Again, that "fix" removes any real feeling of advancement because everything is changed, just to fit you despite your level.
I played ESO at launch and IMO the leveling experience sucked. I felt like a destroyer fleet clearing submarines in a meticulous z pattern in order to not step out my lane which was particularly annoying if one over leveled the zone content rendering it useless in terms of rewards.
When I returned 7 years later I started in VVARDENFALL and honestly struggled at first, playing a DK no less.
I recall playing cat and mouse with a keep full of NPCs who occasionally ganged up and killed me while I tried to farm them for my early gear, not to mention the river troll I kept backing into during the fight.
Once mastered I set out to tackle the zone...ooh, what are those skulls on the map, head over to check it out, look, a couple of prettying ponies, how hard could they be?
Even after a bunch of high levels showed up I spent much of the fight going flat again and again, no level scaling here it seems.
I crushed it in normal quest dungeons so I eagerly ran into a world dungeon solo and with no other players around I got crushed.
I was to experience the same again at max level when I first visited the adventure zone Craglorn.
If @delete is looking for challenge he should head there solo immediately, he'll find what he is seeking.
After I was like SP 300 plus I tackled an "easy" four man, couple of gun toting mechs at the end, took my tank DK like 2 hrs to complete and at least 25 mins to beat the twin bosses.
I could go on with more PVE challenge content but if folks are not willing to seek it out why bother really?
The problem with saying you can find difficulty in modern MMOs is that it is in spikes. So you can wonder along naked without weapons completing quests and then you are trounced by the one location in the zone that is dangerous or the dungeon you can't do alone. Now of course I am exaggerating, but PvE used to prepare you for what was to come, now it does not.
Yep, that's just it. It's not that you CAN'T find challenging content, it's that you USUALLY DON'T. I noticed someone said that someone else could never handle a 15 MOB (I think it was) pull, and accused them of not even being able to handle a 6 MOB pull, as if that's an easy one. And yet, some folks are defending their games as "not easy"? Common guys, 6 MOBs should be a challenge, outside of rats and the like. Heck, with these Power Gaps as big as they are, and without Scaling, you can go back 10 (or 20 or whatever) levels and take on 6 DRAGONS with ease. And that just screams in the face of "Game", "World", and anything else.
What kind of games do we really want anyways?
First, if you'd actually played the game you wouldn't have to guess about dragons, which in ESO require a group to do in the open world against just 1 dragon.
Secondly the opposite as seen recently in Embers Adrift of 6 player beating on one bandit for 3+ minutes is about as much fun as watching paint dry.
Third (and this also goes to the point of actually playing games) AOE grinding big pulls is neither unique to ESO nor new. This has been a thing since the second gen MMOs. And you do need to be selective about which mobs you grind. A pull of 2 or 3 giants and/or their camp buddies, mammoths, in ESO will kill most players.
No offense meant about watching paint dry if that's something you enjoy. To each their own, but personally I want to play, not watch paint dry
As others have said, there is very easy and very tough content in ESO and everything in between. That isn't one of ESO's warts. It's just plain common sense game development for the wide demographics that MMOs attract and have always attracted. Not only that but "must group" design and/or "always intense" everywhere are shitty design because the reality of "must group" is that you literally spend hours not playing and just assembling and reassembling groups and waiting for others to come back from being AFK, game crashes, etc., and "always intense" is fucking exhausting.
MMOs have evolved into content of varying degrees of difficulty and some required grouping not because developers are idiots or because current MMOers are weak casual noobs. They have evolved into what they are because players actually want variety and choices to do a range of easy to hard activities in the same game, instead of having some guy named Adolph telling you how you must always play.
"Adolph"? Really? To be honest with you, I don't believe this kind of crapola because I've heard it all so often before and then found out it was just that, crapola. You are doing the same thing that always happens, picking out specific things that are not the typical overall experience, to defend a game. And I'm calling BS.
First, if you'd actually played the game you wouldn't have to guess about dragons, which in ESO require a group to do in the open world against just 1 dragon.
Secondly the opposite as seen recently in Embers Adrift of 6 player beating on one bandit for 3+ minutes is about as much fun as watching paint dry.
Third (and this also goes to the point of actually playing games) AOE grinding big pulls is neither unique to ESO nor new. This has been a thing since the second gen MMOs. And you do need to be selective about which mobs you grind. A pull of 2 or 3 giants and/or their camp buddies, mammoths, in ESO will kill most players.
No offense meant about watching paint dry if that's something you enjoy. To each their own, but personally I want to play, not watch paint dry
As others have said, there is very easy and very tough content in ESO and everything in between. That isn't one of ESO's warts. It's just plain common sense game development for the wide demographics that MMOs attract and have always attracted. Not only that but "must group" design and/or "always intense" everywhere are shitty design because the reality of "must group" is that you literally spend hours not playing and just assembling and reassembling groups and waiting for others to come back from being AFK, game crashes, etc., and "always intense" is fucking exhausting.
MMOs have evolved into content of varying degrees of difficulty and some required grouping not because developers are idiots or because current MMOers are weak casual noobs. They have evolved into what they are because players actually want variety and choices to do a range of easy to hard activities in the same game, instead of having some guy named Adolph telling you how you must always play.
"Adolph"? Really? To be honest with you, I don't believe this kind of crapola because I've heard it all so often before and then found out it was just that, crapola. You are doing the same thing that always happens, picking out specific things that are not the typical overall experience, to defend a game. And I'm calling BS.
If it's BS it should be pretty easy for you to refute every bit of BS with facts... I'm all ears.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Sure, like most MMOs today the open world content is not difficult, but no one can really talk unless they show me proof they beat all of the dungeons, Abyssals and top end raids on level without being carried.
I find many (most) bemoaning a lack of challenge in MMORPGS today have often not actually completed or even attempted the content which is present in most of the
So yes, one does have to play in order to speak intelligently about how challenging the content is, but certainly one can decide it's not for them without actually doing so.
I mean, no matter how many people say different, I'm never eating sushi, just not going to happen.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
He has been ranting and raving about how easy ESO is for years based mostly on videos he has watched of players who know what they're doing and can handle large pulls of 15+ mobs to grind XP.
He went into the game with an agenda.
No way he will ever admit to having pulled 6 mobs and died because that wouldn't jive with what he always "knew."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
As we say in my country, "Tu prêches un convaincu".
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Raw Pacific NW Salmon and Tuna is delicious though.
But I used to be like you until I started dating a woman who was a sushi fiend.
At first I got away with the miso soup, teriyaki on rice and tempura that sushi restaurants always also have, but eventually I took the plunge and now I love the stuff especially when dipped in a bit of soy sauce and a lot of wasabi (basically green horseradish but more intense) for the kick.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The connexion was a fucking nightmare.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Then again, because of the power gaps in ESO, they had to put in Scaling.
It's the Scaling that removes any feeling of advancement because it literally changes things just to suit your current character.
And I didn't say that power gaps aren't important, they should be there. Just not to this god-mode extreme like in games that don't have the Scaling to "fix" what's broken.
Again, that "fix" removes any real feeling of advancement because everything is changed, just to fit you despite your level.
Once upon a time....
When I returned 7 years later I started in VVARDENFALL and honestly struggled at first, playing a DK no less.
I recall playing cat and mouse with a keep full of NPCs who occasionally ganged up and killed me while I tried to farm them for my early gear, not to mention the river troll I kept backing into during the fight.
Once mastered I set out to tackle the zone...ooh, what are those skulls on the map, head over to check it out, look, a couple of prettying ponies, how hard could they be?
Even after a bunch of high levels showed up I spent much of the fight going flat again and again, no level scaling here it seems.
I crushed it in normal quest dungeons so I eagerly ran into a world dungeon solo and with no other players around I got crushed.
I was to experience the same again at max level when I first visited the adventure zone Craglorn.
If @delete is looking for challenge he should head there solo immediately, he'll find what he is seeking.
After I was like SP 300 plus I tackled an "easy" four man, couple of gun toting mechs at the end, took my tank DK like 2 hrs to complete and at least 25 mins to beat the twin bosses.
I could go on with more PVE challenge content but if folks are not willing to seek it out why bother really?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
delete5230 said: The problem though is what modern MMO is not easymode? ESO normal PvE seems rather easy even in this age of easy MMO's, but it is hard to find a MMO that challenges you somewhat at the beginning and ramps up later on.
And they wonder why classic does so well, classic ESO for anyone? I can tell you that when I started at launch the game challenged you.
The only times I've ever died in any mmorpg (apart from pvp in L2) was if I dared to go into a cave or ruin and get surrounded.
Otherwise, other than special bosses in the overland, there are no mmorpg's that offer a challenge with regular mobs.
So ok Delete, which mmorpg's have you played that offer that? Don't say World of Warcraft.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I noticed someone said that someone else could never handle a 15 MOB (I think it was) pull, and accused them of not even being able to handle a 6 MOB pull, as if that's an easy one. And yet, some folks are defending their games as "not easy"?
Common guys, 6 MOBs should be a challenge, outside of rats and the like.
Heck, with these Power Gaps as big as they are, and without Scaling, you can go back 10 (or 20 or whatever) levels and take on 6 DRAGONS with ease. And that just screams in the face of "Game", "World", and anything else.
What kind of games do we really want anyways?
Once upon a time....
Though come to think of it, on my champion I had some issues so perhaps it was more difficult at launch for some classes. I then changed to guardian and had no issues other than taking longer to kill thing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No seriously, very few players will stick around if the game's content exceeds their ability to successful complete it and get their rewards.
So the dilemma is how do developers create open world content that even I can overcome while keeping it challenging enough for the more hardcore?
One solution was to make content hard enough to require a group at a minimum, up to having a talented, well geared and good looking (my personal ability) group of players to overcome it.
So that didn't work, especially when me and the 5 gazillion like minded gamers (yes, we broke MMOs) refuse to group with all you randos, and guess what, being lazy arses we're often willing to spend more money than most, so devs clearly want to keep our business.
What to do? Exactly what happened, create broad, mostly easy open world content to keep the masses happy, them add in increasingly more difficult or challenging tiers of content for those who seek it.
Oh sure, the plebes are going to bitch when they can't get equivalent cool rewards while still being lazy, but then again, that's what cash shops are for, yes?
ESO is very good at providing many tiers of content difficulty and it's going to vary by individual ability how much so.
There's some folks who have the most difficult content on farm status, but even they find ways to improve the challenge by say, subbing in a few noobs to see if the still succeded while carrying Leroy Jenkins and his friends. (They even charge money for this, win all the way around, yes?)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Secondly the opposite as seen recently in Embers Adrift of 6 player beating on one bandit for 3+ minutes is about as much fun as watching paint dry.
Third (and this also goes to the point of actually playing games) AOE grinding big pulls is neither unique to ESO nor new. This has been a thing since the second gen MMOs. And you do need to be selective about which mobs you grind. A pull of 2 or 3 giants and/or their camp buddies, mammoths, in ESO will kill most players.
No offense meant about watching paint dry if that's something you enjoy. To each their own, but personally I want to play, not watch paint dry
As others have said, there is very easy and very tough content in ESO and everything in between. That isn't one of ESO's warts. It's just plain common sense game development for the wide demographics that MMOs attract and have always attracted. Not only that but "must group" design and/or "always intense" everywhere are shitty design because the reality of "must group" is that you literally spend hours not playing and just assembling and reassembling groups and waiting for others to come back from being AFK, game crashes, etc., and "always intense" is fucking exhausting.
MMOs have evolved into content of varying degrees of difficulty and some required grouping not because developers are idiots or because current MMOers are weak casual noobs. They have evolved into what they are because players actually want variety and choices to do a range of easy to hard activities in the same game, instead of having some guy named Adolph telling you how you must always play.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
At this moment in MMORPG history, it's true that if you build it (right), they will come. Because no one else is doing it.
Once upon a time....
Also some of the exchanges between me and Korrigan were removed, really no idea why. Though I might have missed a lot overnight, neither of us had said anything reproachable.
To be honest with you, I don't believe this kind of crapola because I've heard it all so often before and then found out it was just that, crapola.
You are doing the same thing that always happens, picking out specific things that are not the typical overall experience, to defend a game.
And I'm calling BS.
Once upon a time....
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED