I recall having lost levels during some Plane raid and then spending 3 weeks soloing to get those levels back because everyone in the guild was max level and hardly played except during raids. Groups were where you had to wait hours for so I opted to solo. It was the most boring and miserable time but you did it because there were no other games for me at least.
You can go fly kites if you expect me to do that again. I'll just play some other game.
losing levels is a mistake , i dont mind losing exp but levels sucks
thats one hell of a deal breaker dam
I'm good with it but that's what I was weaned on.
a non-issue for sure.
What MMO made you lose levels when you died?
everquest
One Fear run I lost 6 levels and could no longer zone into Fear.
Lineage 1 for me, lost 6 levels once in a particularly nasty castle fight, it hurt, but I got them back.
Trouble with such mechanics is it makes folks extremely over cautious, especially the higher one goes.
In Lin 1 the closer people were to 50 the less likely they were to take risks due to how experience amounts per level worked.
Basically it was like this, the number of experience points doubled for every level.
So to go from level 9 to 10 was the sum total of all experience points for every level from 1-9.
So imagine level 49 to 50, the sum experience from level 1-49....the figure was staggering.
DAOC also has losing experience, but only until you hit the bottom of your current level, you couldn't de-level.
Also, they didn't start with massive jumps in exp points between levels until 45 to 50 and added the concept of half levels so once you were past the 50% mark you couldn't drop below it.
It was a huge improvement over L1 but still it was not uncommon for players to not participate in any risky content if they were closing in on their next level or half level bump.
I think Lineage 2 and Shadowbane also had de-leveling, wasn't until WOW that I mostly put that mechanic behind.
In EVE you used to have to update your clone regularly, which I always did. However some forgot and upon death would lose skill points, sometimes several months worths at the higher levels which could prevent one from flying their ship at all until enough time had passed to earn them all back.
Super demoralizing and I saw many players quit over it and eventually (like 10 yrs later) CCP saw the light and got rid of the mechanic.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why I dont come here much any more... If you have been following the games development. A year or so ago, the game was disassembled and brought back to grey boxes. Watching the latest development videos. The speed they have gone at is very fast for a team of just under 10 people and 3 of them only were hired in the last couple months. With their new tools, and data stack. Not just world building but also building things like classes, perception quests and other content. You can now go back to the regular game bashing and spending time not talking about the current topic. Enjoy your derail.
If they have dev tools for building world, abilities, quests, etc. that just means they've finally fixed their mistake of not building ones earlier and are now able to develop stuff at normal pace.
Having good tools for that kind of stuff was awesome back in last millenium. Today for a MMO scale project it's normal.
Why I dont come here much any more... If you have been following the games development. A year or so ago, the game was disassembled and brought back to grey boxes. Watching the latest development videos. The speed they have gone at is very fast for a team of just under 10 people and 3 of them only were hired in the last couple months. With their new tools, and data stack. Not just world building but also building things like classes, perception quests and other content. You can now go back to the regular game bashing and spending time not talking about the current topic. Enjoy your derail.
If they have dev tools for building world, abilities, quests, etc. that just means they've finally fixed their mistake of not building ones earlier and are now able to develop stuff at normal pace.
Having good tools for that kind of stuff was awesome back in last millenium. Today for a MMO scale project it's normal.
And again… if true that it’s so amazing they are selling it to other devs… how much cash was raised? And if it’s so amazing why can’t we even get a YEAR as a target for Alpha, Beta or… heaven forbid… launch?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
losing levels is a mistake , i dont mind losing exp but levels sucks
thats one hell of a deal breaker dam
I'm good with it but that's what I was weaned on.
a non-issue for sure.
What MMO made you lose levels when you died?
Everquest but really it only lasted a fairly short time.....Clerics could restore almost all of the lost XP and later on there were Priests in the guild hall that could summon and then have players rez you easily there...I only remember de-leveling once and I got the XP back in no time,,,I dont know how it will work in this game though.
You wouldn't just automatically lose a level but if you were close to the previous level then you would de-level.
Happened to me many times.
In Lineage 1 characters would gain random stat boosts when they leveled up, in areas impact spell pools, spell power, physical attacks and endurance depending on one class.
When de-leveling they would also lose those gains in a random fashion as well.
I recall the more hardcore players chosing to die over and over at every level boost until they got the optimal set they were looking for.
No way did I see that as fun or worth it. Reminded me of all the character rerolls I would do in early ADD single player RPGs. (SSI Gold Box series maybe, perhaps Ultima Underworld), can't recall)
I recall rolling a character, making a backup on a 5 1/4 floppy if it was a good roll, (as game didn't permit more than one character per disk,) replacing it with a fresh disk and doing all again.
Eventually I might be comparing results from 10 or more rolls until I got the perfect build.
In one game it took me 3 days to finally get what I wanted, probably the time when I really came to despise RNG mechanics.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
To some degree they do. Technology and new design features passes them by. Look at project 1999. What sold 20 years ago doesn't sell now.
As your technology is outdated it put more pressure on your gameplay.
Is it possible to overcome old and outdated graphics and old game mechanics, old UI, old mob AI. Yes its possible, but its so much harder to overcome these things down the road. If the same game launches when these things are fresh it has a MUCH better chance of success.
Another example is UO2, if they released that back when it was in massive hype, it would have done fairly well even with just a decent game. Now there is no hype, this game would have to be extremely well made in many different areas to get the same player numbers.
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
The further these things go past the initial estimate, the less likely a successful game ever launches. Its a reflection of poor project planning and management. Sure, there is always that longshot that connects on the hail mary, but thats sure rare.
If the game was great, sure I think most would play it. I know I would. I know I WANT TO! But thats looking more and more unlikely with each year that passes
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
The further these things go past the initial estimate, the less likely a successful game ever launches. Its a reflection of poor project planning and management. Sure, there is always that longshot that connects on the hail mary, but thats sure rare.
If the game was great, sure I think most would play it. I know I would. I know I WANT TO! But thats looking more and more unlikely with each year that passes
I would agree except that there's no Pantheon competitor right now. This is literally the last hope for "old school" MMO fans.
The only 2 questions are:
1. Are there enough of us left to sustain the game post launch.
2. Will it be at least good enough to keep us around.
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
The further these things go past the initial estimate, the less likely a successful game ever launches. Its a reflection of poor project planning and management. Sure, there is always that longshot that connects on the hail mary, but thats sure rare.
If the game was great, sure I think most would play it. I know I would. I know I WANT TO! But thats looking more and more unlikely with each year that passes
I would agree except that there's no Pantheon competitor right now. This is literally the last hope for "old school" MMO fans.
The only 2 questions are:
1. Are there enough of us left to sustain the game post launch.
2. Will it be at least good enough to keep us around.
You might want to add...
3. How are they planning to dislodge those interested in other things and encourage them to give this a shot?
Because, if the customer doesn't know and doesn't see this as more attractive than whatever else they're doing, the chances are very good that that customer doesn't return. Banking on 'build it, and they will come' isn't a solid marketing plan.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
To some degree they do. Technology and new design features passes them by. Look at project 1999. What sold 20 years ago doesn't sell now.
As your technology is outdated it put more pressure on your gameplay.
Is it possible to overcome old and outdated graphics and old game mechanics, old UI, old mob AI. Yes its possible, but its so much harder to overcome these things down the road. If the same game launches when these things are fresh it has a MUCH better chance of success.
Another example is UO2, if they released that back when it was in massive hype, it would have done fairly well even with just a decent game. Now there is no hype, this game would have to be extremely well made in many different areas to get the same player numbers.
In 1999, real-time 3D graphics was still in its infancy, and to my eyes, looked markedly worse than 2D graphics. Pantheon's kickstarter was in 2014, and even if the game launches and looks like it's something out of 2014, that will be fine. Technology wasn't nearly so limited in 2014 as it was in 1999.
If this game does release, and if they include what they are saying they will, I expect a lot of box sales, then a gigantic drop in numbers as people realize that corpse runs are not fun. You dealt with them in EQ1 because there weren't many other games in town and you were young and didn't know better.
That and losing lvls will cause people to move along.
I love listening to the cries about death penalty. The casuals who have lost touch with why mechanics exist in mmorpgs can go back to their mmos made for the masses and suck on their cash shop pipe of convenience. You forgot that the game play itself is the fun, and not the climb up the endless ladder you've been brainwashed to think is what matters.
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
That's almost a decade. That's a long enough time that some people will have started families by then, or graduated school and got careers, or frikkin' died (like the original project head did).
Also the company will probably run out of money to develop the game by then.
I love listening to the cries about death penalty. The casuals who have lost touch with why mechanics exist in mmorpgs can go back to their mmos made for the masses and suck on their cash shop pipe of convenience. You forgot that the game play itself is the fun, and not the climb up the endless ladder you've been brainwashed to think is what matters.
It's better for everyone. Begone.
tHe cASUals wHo haVE loST touCH WITH why MeChanics exIst in MMorpgs Can gO BAck to THEIr mMos maDe foR thE maSSes...
I would have to ask if the developers have actually shared any videos which showed fun game play?
We've seen the devs and some select streamers meandering about or slogging through a few fights in the early dungeons sure, but I'd say the verdict is still out on whether or not any mechanic, death or otherwise contributes to the overall player experience in a positive manner.
I'm a former longtime EVE player where I dare say death penalties were much harsher than anything ever cooked up in EQ1, well maybe on their FFA PVP servers which I think were full loot in the beginning.
The death penalty has to make sense in relationship to the overall game play, and provide players reasonable ways to assess the amount of risk facing them and provide options to help mitigate.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If this game does release, and if they include what they are saying they will, I expect a lot of box sales, then a gigantic drop in numbers as people realize that corpse runs are not fun. You dealt with them in EQ1 because there weren't many other games in town and you were young and didn't know better.
That and losing lvls will cause people to move along.
Death mechanics aren't entirely about what is or isn't fun. It's critical to the overall design of the game to have a meaningful death penalty that stings. People have to realize, this a fully open and seamless. There's no instancing. That means there has to be high risk for camping so other groups have opportunity to take over a certain area when another group wipes. If you are soloing, death will be much more harsh compared if you are cooperating with other players. It's another way to encourage social, group gameplay. And there are other options to corpse runs if one so chooses, one example is corpse dragging.
The death mechanic explanation is a bit convoluted but a poster by the name of Heebs on the official forums made a very nice flowchart.
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
The further these things go past the initial estimate, the less likely a successful game ever launches. Its a reflection of poor project planning and management. Sure, there is always that longshot that connects on the hail mary, but thats sure rare.
If the game was great, sure I think most would play it. I know I would. I know I WANT TO! But thats looking more and more unlikely with each year that passes
I would agree except that there's no Pantheon competitor right now. This is literally the last hope for "old school" MMO fans.
The only 2 questions are:
1. Are there enough of us left to sustain the game post launch.
2. Will it be at least good enough to keep us around.
Monster & Memories seems like competition, granted M&M is using graphics more similar to EQ itself. But they both aim to capture that same magic.
8 years of development and its not even close. By the time this game comes out it will be out dated and no one interested.
Great games are never outdated. Conversely, there's never a good date for a bad game.
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
That's almost a decade. That's a long enough time that some people will have started families by then, or graduated school and got careers, or frikkin' died (like the original project head did).
Also the company will probably run out of money to develop the game by then.
So? There will be a lot of games released in 2030, and a lot of people will play them. When considering which game to play from among those that launched recently, do you really look up the date that the game started development and refuse to play it if it took too long?
I'm not predicting what will happen to Pantheon in particular. But I am saying that what matters is how good the game is when it launches, not how long it took to get there.
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Beyond the shadows there's always light
You can go fly kites if you expect me to do that again. I'll just play some other game.
Trouble with such mechanics is it makes folks extremely over cautious, especially the higher one goes.
In Lin 1 the closer people were to 50 the less likely they were to take risks due to how experience amounts per level worked.
Basically it was like this, the number of experience points doubled for every level.
So to go from level 9 to 10 was the sum total of all experience points for every level from 1-9.
So imagine level 49 to 50, the sum experience from level 1-49....the figure was staggering.
DAOC also has losing experience, but only until you hit the bottom of your current level, you couldn't de-level.
Also, they didn't start with massive jumps in exp points between levels until 45 to 50 and added the concept of half levels so once you were past the 50% mark you couldn't drop below it.
It was a huge improvement over L1 but still it was not uncommon for players to not participate in any risky content if they were closing in on their next level or half level bump.
I think Lineage 2 and Shadowbane also had de-leveling, wasn't until WOW that I mostly put that mechanic behind.
In EVE you used to have to update your clone regularly, which I always did. However some forgot and upon death would lose skill points, sometimes several months worths at the higher levels which could prevent one from flying their ship at all until enough time had passed to earn them all back.
Super demoralizing and I saw many players quit over it and eventually (like 10 yrs later) CCP saw the light and got rid of the mechanic.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Having good tools for that kind of stuff was awesome back in last millenium. Today for a MMO scale project it's normal.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Everquest but really it only lasted a fairly short time.....Clerics could restore almost all of the lost XP and later on there were Priests in the guild hall that could summon and then have players rez you easily there...I only remember de-leveling once and I got the XP back in no time,,,I dont know how it will work in this game though.
You wouldn't just automatically lose a level but if you were close to the previous level then you would de-level.
Happened to me many times.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
When de-leveling they would also lose those gains in a random fashion as well.
I recall the more hardcore players chosing to die over and over at every level boost until they got the optimal set they were looking for.
No way did I see that as fun or worth it. Reminded me of all the character rerolls I would do in early ADD single player RPGs. (SSI Gold Box series maybe, perhaps Ultima Underworld), can't recall)
I recall rolling a character, making a backup on a 5 1/4 floppy if it was a good roll, (as game didn't permit more than one character per disk,) replacing it with a fresh disk and doing all again.
Eventually I might be comparing results from 10 or more rolls until I got the perfect build.
In one game it took me 3 days to finally get what I wanted, probably the time when I really came to despise RNG mechanics.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If the game launches in 2030, fits your preferences well, and does a really good job of implementing what they tried to implement, are you really going to refuse to play because it took too long?
As your technology is outdated it put more pressure on your gameplay.
Is it possible to overcome old and outdated graphics and old game mechanics, old UI, old mob AI. Yes its possible, but its so much harder to overcome these things down the road. If the same game launches when these things are fresh it has a MUCH better chance of success.
Another example is UO2, if they released that back when it was in massive hype, it would have done fairly well even with just a decent game. Now there is no hype, this game would have to be extremely well made in many different areas to get the same player numbers.
If the game was great, sure I think most would play it. I know I would. I know I WANT TO! But thats looking more and more unlikely with each year that passes
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
That and losing lvls will cause people to move along.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
It's better for everyone. Begone.
You stay sassy!
Also the company will probably run out of money to develop the game by then.
We've seen the devs and some select streamers meandering about or slogging through a few fights in the early dungeons sure, but I'd say the verdict is still out on whether or not any mechanic, death or otherwise contributes to the overall player experience in a positive manner.
I'm a former longtime EVE player where I dare say death penalties were much harsher than anything ever cooked up in EQ1, well maybe on their FFA PVP servers which I think were full loot in the beginning.
The death penalty has to make sense in relationship to the overall game play, and provide players reasonable ways to assess the amount of risk facing them and provide options to help mitigate.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not predicting what will happen to Pantheon in particular. But I am saying that what matters is how good the game is when it launches, not how long it took to get there.