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PC Build suggestions?

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  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,449
    edited August 2022
    Why not do this?




    ...all you need is a mini-fridge, microwave and doordash shute in the wall and you never have to leave the bathroom.



    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    edited August 2022
    Asm0deus said:
    bliss14 said:
    ...snip...
    Sounds good.  I own and have run two cables from the router to two locations in the house.  One is to my work laptop area and the other is to my "fun" office where the desktop will be and where i'm currently hardwired in with my personal laptop.  My ISP cut me a couple of 50 foot cables at the time for pretty cheap.  I think they're cat 5 so maybe it would be worthwhile to get a cat 6 cable.  I ran it through the ceiling so it's kind of a pain but maybe worth it.

    Whats is your internet speed?

    I mean really upgrading from cat5e to cat6 may be worth it or it might not be it depends on if you actually need the higher bandwidth of the cat6 cable.

    Basically the category 5e or 6 or 6a means the specifications are higher which provide certain benefits and help future proof your installation.






    I personally ran some cat6 cable recently, 100 foot of it, and stuck to cat6 as it wasn't worth the extra cost to get cat6a since it does the same job at that length.

    Also while cat6 is technically rated for 250mhz the one I bought is suppose to be 550mhz.  Read the first link to learn more about that.

    A lot of routers and motherboards can only do 1 gigabit per second - equal to what your normal Cat5e cable can do. When connecting to internet, there are some fibre optic connections that can reach or even exceed that speed, but those are rare, and all other internet connection methods except fibre optics normally stay well below that speed.

    If you want to create blazingly fast connection between different devices inside your home, then your home network speed is worth thinking. But assuming you just want to connect fast to internet, and you don't have fibre optic net, just check that your old cables have some text like "Certified for gigabit ethernet", or "Cat5e", or "1 000 Mbps", or something like that. If they have, then those cables are capable of much faster speed than your (non-fibre optics) internet could do.
     
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973

    1. That CPU cooler has two different editions: One that can fit into your motherboard's LGA1700 socket, and one that can't:

    New edition: 
      https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-air-coolers/hyper-212-rgb-black-edition-with-lga1700/

    Old edition:
      https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-air-coolers/hyper-212-rgb-black-edition/

    Be careful that you buy the right version



    2. I'd advise against that hard hard disk.

    Some of the new NVMe hard disks are really fast, for example
      https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1710646-REG/crucial_ct2000p3ssd8_2tb_p3_nvme_pcie.html

    Can do up to 3 500 MB/s read and 3 000 MB/s write.

    Compared to that, the old SATA hard disks can only do 560 MB/s, because SATA protocol can't do faster data transfer than that.

    The price difference between NVMe SSD and SATA SSD is really small, so for a new computer build you'll want to look for an NVMe stick that gives you a lot faster speed at practically the same price.



    3. If you like 4X games like Stellaris I'd recommend 32GB RAM.

    Strategy games often use more RAM the larger map you want, the more units and buildings and stuff you have on it (late-game requires much more RAM than early game), and the more mods you have. You can do most anything with 16 GB, but 32 GB doesn't cost that much more and for a strategy game fan I'd recommend it.
    Slapshot1188
     
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    bliss14 said:
    Quizzical said:
    bliss14 said:
    @Quizzical
    You said something about being near the router, i have a line run from it to the room the pc would bein, about 25 feet.  Is there a length of cable where connection starts to deteriorate?  i ping great to games, chicago servers espeiclaly at about 25 ms.
    The usual reasons why someone doesn't run an Ethernet cable from a router to their computer are:

    1)  the computer needs to move around a lot,
    2)  having a cable wind around through doorways across rooms is tacky, risky, or otherwise obnoxious, or
    3)  the person doesn't know any better.

    These aren't mutually exclusive.  Option (1) is common for laptops and rare for desktops.  Option (2) is more of a judgment call.

    There is a maximum length of Ethernet cables before the signal degrades, but it's probably not relevant to you.  A cat 6 ethernet cable (and if you're buying a new cable, get cat 6, as it's basically the same price as lesser grades) is rated at 10 Gbps up to 50 meters, or 1 Gbps up to 100 meters.  The former is important for some enterprise uses, but the latter is probably what's relevant to you.  The latency difference from a longer cable will be under a microsecond, and even a very long ethernet cable is still going to be lower latency than Wi-Fi, even if not by a large enough margin to actually matter.

    If you think you need a 25 foot cable, then buy a 50 foot one.  You don't want to pull the cable tight and potentially trip over it.  Extra length can allow the cable to follow the perimeter of a room and keep it out of the way rather than cutting across the middle.  If you own your own home, you can also drill a hole through a wall to feed a cable through it, though this may not be an option if you're renting.
    Sounds good.  I own and have run two cables from the router to two locations in the house.  One is to my work laptop area and the other is to my "fun" office where the desktop will be and where i'm currently hardwired in with my personal laptop.  My ISP cut me a couple of 50 foot cables at the time for pretty cheap.  I think they're cat 5 so maybe it would be worthwhile to get a cat 6 cable.  I ran it through the ceiling so it's kind of a pain but maybe worth it.
    If you've already got the ethernet cables in place and working, then I don't see any need to swap them out.  If you upgrade your Internet to something faster than gigabit in 10 or 20 years, then you can swap out the cables then.  But you could easily move to a different house before that happens.

    I mentioned cat 6 not because it's urgent today, but because if you're buying new cables today, there's no real drawback to getting cat 6, and it might actually matter in 10 or 20 years.
  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,413
    Cat 6a is basically the limit of what consumer hardware can handle right now. Cat 7 isn't practical. Cat 8 requires the equipment to support it to get its maximum speed. I ran Cat 8 not too long ago. The main benefit would be against radio interference with a thick foil sleeve around each pair. It can also make its way to the modem 4 times faster, but over a distance of less than 30 ft it's pointless. It will still slow down dramatically as it makes its way through my ISP to their regional IXP.
  • bliss14bliss14 Member UncommonPosts: 595
    I get 100 up and 100 down, basically.  So I think going off what i'm seeing cat5 existing is fine unless my ISP offers something drastically higher.  I live in the country btw, so I'm restricted to what I have available.  Which is actually incredibly stable, so i'm happy enough.
  • bliss14bliss14 Member UncommonPosts: 595
    32 gigs ram for 4x games like stellaris, eh?  makes sense...as the population of the galaxy increases, the speed decreases.  too many calculations.  the game itself could be the chokepoint though, right?  i see so many folks indicate that no matter what, at a certain point it's just way too much going on in the background.
  • bliss14bliss14 Member UncommonPosts: 595

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    edited August 2022
    bliss14 said:
    32 gigs ram for 4x games like stellaris, eh?  makes sense...as the population of the galaxy increases, the speed decreases.  too many calculations.  the game itself could be the chokepoint though, right?  i see so many folks indicate that no matter what, at a certain point it's just way too much going on in the background.
    For Stellaris I think the chokepoint is CPU's single core speed. For that there's unfortunately only so much you can do, since you already chose CPU with nearly the best single core speed on the market. The best would be I9 12900K, but it would be less than 5% faster in Stellaris and cost like $200 extra, so it's definitely not worth the extra price.


    My comment about strategy games was meant more on general level, since some of them can be quite RAM-hungry. Also since getting 32 GB instead of 16 GB should cost less than $50 extra, so it's a cheap improvement.
     
  • bliss14bliss14 Member UncommonPosts: 595
    Vrika said:
    bliss14 said:
    32 gigs ram for 4x games like stellaris, eh?  makes sense...as the population of the galaxy increases, the speed decreases.  too many calculations.  the game itself could be the chokepoint though, right?  i see so many folks indicate that no matter what, at a certain point it's just way too much going on in the background.
    For Stellaris I think the chokepoint is CPU's single core speed. For that there's unfortunately only so much you can do, since you already chose CPU with nearly the best single core speed on the market. The best would be I9 12900K, but it would be less than 5% faster in Stellaris and cost like $200 extra, so it's definitely not worth the extra price.


    My comment about strategy games was meant more on general level, since some of them can be quite RAM-hungry. Also since getting 32 GB instead of 16 GB should cost less than $50 extra, so it's a cheap improvement.
    Totally makes sense and yes, the price is not exorbitant for a higher amount of RAM.

    Random note, I think I will be getting a new case.  My old one is definitely showing it's age, little beat up :).
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    It only takes one game that you want to play to make you wish you had more memory, and it's hard to predict when a game will be a memory hog or have serious memory leaks.  In my case, I upgraded my current computer from 16 GB to 32 GB for Kerbal Space Program.
  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,413
    I recommend a case that is impractical, but looks good like an inWin.
    Ridelynn
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,599
    Cleffy said:
    I recommend a case that is impractical, but looks good like an inWin.

    Teeheee



    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • JustabhiJustabhi Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    edited August 2022
    I'm sure you would want to buy a decent gaming keyboard as well and in that case, if you like those new Japanese keycaps and mechanical keyboards then definitely get those as they are totally worth it. You can find a detailed guide here which will help you decide on a good gaming keyboard. Theres a basically two types low profile and the standard ones. I personally prefer the low profile as they are much easier to press and use plus you can easily change their keycaps as well. 
    https://flyingshiba.com/low-profile-vs-normal-keyboards-main-differences/

    But all in all, I would suggest you get the Keychron K2 as many people prefer it in 2022 and it's highly popular as well. It's worth it! 
    https://www.amazon.com/Keychron-Mechanical-Keyboard-Illuminated-Hot-Swappable/dp/B09YV22XNQ/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=keychron+k2&qid=1660760544&sprefix=keychron+k,aps,657&sr=8-3
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,465
    Weird.  That's probably a salesbot, but it's really on point.

    Always funny how folks will spend high dollar on internals, then use a $5 mouse, and $15 keyboard.  For the equipment that you will use to interface with all the time.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,599
    edited August 2022
    Weird.  That's probably a salesbot, but it's really on point.

    Always funny how folks will spend high dollar on internals, then use a $5 mouse, and $15 keyboard.  For the equipment that you will use to interface with all the time.

    This is true but some people super over spend on say keyboards or mice. For example the corsair keybaord are not bad but damn they are overpriced.  I have a K55 rgb and k55 pro xt and both have been excellent even though they are membrane keyboards.

    Looking for myself anything over $150 cad is like not needed  unless you really want that particular model for the bling as you can get both some good mechanical and membrane, rgb or not, for that price.

    The K55 I bought in 2019 has 5 zone lighting and not keycaps are worn down even though I use it daily, it was under $100cad and the pro xt I got last week for my boy and he loves it and it has per key rgb so he can go cray cray with the icue keyboard profiles.

    Only thing annoying is they wont sell a complete set of keycap replacements so if for pudding keycap You got to get a cheap broken k55 or just used k55 and use the keycaps off that to make your own pudding caps.  Whereas a  mechanical keyboard you can just buy some pudding caps from like amazon etc.

    Here is an example of what I mean buy stupid overpriced.


    The switches are not even hot swappable......lmao

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    Weird.  That's probably a salesbot, but it's really on point.

    Always funny how folks will spend high dollar on internals, then use a $5 mouse, and $15 keyboard.  For the equipment that you will use to interface with all the time.
    What I find mysterious is that people will spend a ton of money on keyboards and mice expecting them to be better just because they're expensive.  If you want and will use particular fancy features that only expensive products have, then go ahead.  Or if you try out a mouse or keyboard and find it very comfortable, then go ahead.

    The best mouse I've ever used cost me $14.  It had two buttons and a scroll wheel and that was it.  But everything just worked flawlessly, every time.  And for about ten years, before it finally broke.  Most fancy mice don't even work flawlessly when brand new without having at least one weird quirk, and even those that do usually don't last ten years.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,599
    edited August 2022
    Quizzical said:
    Weird.  That's probably a salesbot, but it's really on point.

    Always funny how folks will spend high dollar on internals, then use a $5 mouse, and $15 keyboard.  For the equipment that you will use to interface with all the time.
    ...snip...

    The best mouse I've ever used cost me $14.  It had two buttons and a scroll wheel and that was it.  But everything just worked flawlessly, every time.  And for about ten years, before it finally broke.  Most fancy mice don't even work flawlessly when brand new without having at least one weird quirk, and even those that do usually don't last ten years.

    Lots of that is that today mice use switches that are not run in spec with their testing. 

    Older mice used to run at like 5v and today mice run at like 3.3v.  Also gamers and they way we use mice is not in spec either as in many games we are using them beyond the testing specs when it comes to cycle frequency, pressure, speed, over travel and full release.

    Marketing has a way to talking lots of garbage and making you think one thing when it mostly a big fat lie.

    Like back in the day you had amps being sold in watts peak to peak using catchy misleading terms making peeps think they were buying a 100w rms but were actually geting 100w pp aka peak to peak.

    Last I checked the min spec for the famous D2FC-F omron was 5 vdc @100ma or 6vdc@1ma and todays mice just don't have that much voltage.



    Post edited by Asm0deus on

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    Asm0deus said:
    Quizzical said:
    Weird.  That's probably a salesbot, but it's really on point.

    Always funny how folks will spend high dollar on internals, then use a $5 mouse, and $15 keyboard.  For the equipment that you will use to interface with all the time.
    ...snip...

    The best mouse I've ever used cost me $14.  It had two buttons and a scroll wheel and that was it.  But everything just worked flawlessly, every time.  And for about ten years, before it finally broke.  Most fancy mice don't even work flawlessly when brand new without having at least one weird quirk, and even those that do usually don't last ten years.

    Lots of that is that today mice use switches that are not run in spec with their testing. 

    Older mice used to run at like 5v and today mice run at like 3.3v.  Also gamers and they way we use mice is not in spec either as in many games we are using them beyond the testing specs when it comes to cycle frequency, pressure, speed, over travel and full release.

    Marketing has a way to talking lots of garbage and making you think one thing when it mostly a big fat lie.

    Like back in the day you had amps being sold in watts peak to peak using catchy misleading terms making peeps think they were buying a 100w rms but were actually geting 100w pp aka peak to peak.

    Last I checked the min spec for the famous D2FC-F omron was 5 vdc @100ma or 6vdc@1ma and todays mice just don't have that much voltage.

    That's a mechanical switch. It uses physical force (applied by you when you click your mouse) to either form a conduit between its terminals or to break it.

    Electricity is passed through it so that later in the circuit some other components will react to passing electricity when that switch is toggled on. But the switch itself doesn't even need electricity and you can operate that kind of switch with pretty much any voltage and current you want. As such the mice (or at least that switch) would not work any worse or better with any other voltage. If the mouse lasts less than you'd like you need to search for other culprits.
     
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,599
    edited August 2022
    Vrika said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Quizzical said:
    Weird.  That's probably a salesbot, but it's really on point.

    Always funny how folks will spend high dollar on internals, then use a $5 mouse, and $15 keyboard.  For the equipment that you will use to interface with all the time.
    ...snip...

    The best mouse I've ever used cost me $14.  It had two buttons and a scroll wheel and that was it.  But everything just worked flawlessly, every time.  And for about ten years, before it finally broke.  Most fancy mice don't even work flawlessly when brand new without having at least one weird quirk, and even those that do usually don't last ten years.

    Lots of that is that today mice use switches that are not run in spec with their testing. 

    Older mice used to run at like 5v and today mice run at like 3.3v.  Also gamers and they way we use mice is not in spec either as in many games we are using them beyond the testing specs when it comes to cycle frequency, pressure, speed, over travel and full release.

    Marketing has a way to talking lots of garbage and making you think one thing when it mostly a big fat lie.

    Like back in the day you had amps being sold in watts peak to peak using catchy misleading terms making peeps think they were buying a 100w rms but were actually geting 100w pp aka peak to peak.

    Last I checked the min spec for the famous D2FC-F omron was 5 vdc @100ma or 6vdc@1ma and todays mice just don't have that much voltage.

    That's a mechanical switch. It uses physical force (applied by you when you click your mouse) to either form a conduit between its terminals or to break it.

    Electricity is passed through it so that later in the circuit some other components will react to passing electricity when that switch is toggled on. But the switch itself doesn't even need electricity and you can operate that kind of switch with pretty much any voltage and current you want. As such the mice (or at least that switch) would not work any worse or better with any other voltage. If the mouse lasts less than you'd like you need to search for other culprits.

    You do not know what you are talking about so be quiet.  Even omron's own datasheet which I provided has the information I posted.

    It about wetting current and a bunch of other factors you clearly know nothing about but I do since I was an electronics tech before I retired.


    Yes it is a mechanical switch but the voltage and current has an important role for them to work reliably within spec.  Would be too long to educate you tbh so go take a course then actually work in the field for awhile.

    What you just spouted at me is so very, very basic it's asinine. 

    It's like you going tell an electrician doing his job at a construction site he can just run any cable in the walls cause,  "Electricity is passed through it so that later in the circuit some other components will react to passing electricity" and that " and you can operate with pretty much any voltage and current you want" the wires spec do not matter....lol







    Here is one more, you tell me what this tells you?  I even found a pic with something circled in blue to help you. Btw the line going up and down on the left is (0, 5, 12)voltage, seems I snipped it off when cropping to a smaller sized pic.


    Post edited by Asm0deus on

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    edited August 2022
    EDIT: Deleted, we were going too much off-topic /EDIT
    Post edited by Vrika on
     
  • bliss14bliss14 Member UncommonPosts: 595
    edited August 2022
    Ouch, a little vitriol there.

    I have a Cynosa keyboard currently but I do need to replace it.

    Mouse is a Logitech G502SE.  I have never done much with macroing things to the mouse but I know I can' t live without the back and forward buttons for browser :)


  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    edited August 2022
    Asm0deus said:
    Vrika said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Quizzical said:
    Weird.  That's probably a salesbot, but it's really on point.

    Always funny how folks will spend high dollar on internals, then use a $5 mouse, and $15 keyboard.  For the equipment that you will use to interface with all the time.
    ...snip...

    The best mouse I've ever used cost me $14.  It had two buttons and a scroll wheel and that was it.  But everything just worked flawlessly, every time.  And for about ten years, before it finally broke.  Most fancy mice don't even work flawlessly when brand new without having at least one weird quirk, and even those that do usually don't last ten years.

    Lots of that is that today mice use switches that are not run in spec with their testing. 

    Older mice used to run at like 5v and today mice run at like 3.3v.  Also gamers and they way we use mice is not in spec either as in many games we are using them beyond the testing specs when it comes to cycle frequency, pressure, speed, over travel and full release.

    Marketing has a way to talking lots of garbage and making you think one thing when it mostly a big fat lie.

    Like back in the day you had amps being sold in watts peak to peak using catchy misleading terms making peeps think they were buying a 100w rms but were actually geting 100w pp aka peak to peak.

    Last I checked the min spec for the famous D2FC-F omron was 5 vdc @100ma or 6vdc@1ma and todays mice just don't have that much voltage.

    That's a mechanical switch. It uses physical force (applied by you when you click your mouse) to either form a conduit between its terminals or to break it.

    Electricity is passed through it so that later in the circuit some other components will react to passing electricity when that switch is toggled on. But the switch itself doesn't even need electricity and you can operate that kind of switch with pretty much any voltage and current you want. As such the mice (or at least that switch) would not work any worse or better with any other voltage. If the mouse lasts less than you'd like you need to search for other culprits.

    You do not know what you are talking about so be quiet.  Even omron's own datasheet which I provided has the information I posted.

    It about wetting current and a bunch of other factors you clearly know nothing about but I do since I was an electronics tech before I retired.


    Yes it is a mechanical switch but the voltage and current has an important role for them to work reliably within spec.  Would be too long to educate you tbh so go take a course then actually work in the field for awhile.

    What you just spouted at me is so very, very basic it's asinine. 

    It's like you going tell an electrician doing his job at a construction site he can just run any cable in the walls cause,  "Electricity is passed through it so that later in the circuit some other components will react to passing electricity" and that " and you can operate with pretty much any voltage and current you want" the wires spec do not matter....lol







    Here is one more, you tell me what this tells you?  I even found a pic with something circled in blue to help you. Btw the line going up and down on the left is (0, 5, 12)voltage, seems I snipped it off when cropping to a smaller sized pic.


    I decided to answer it after all:

    First picture you posted tells conditions used for shock test. I don't know what makes you think it's the "min spec" for that component. Second picture looks like typical conditions.

    The third picture has actual minimum ratings for a switch - but not for the D2FC switch. Maybe you can find similar picture for D2FC -switches somewhere?

    The third picture also tells that those D2F-01 -switches have huge operating range: Ranging from 1 mA to 100 mA, and from 5V to probably 24V or something? (not visible on the picture). Switches typically have huge operating ranges like that, so it's not like that would be hard to hit.



    Though now that I think about it's, it's possible that the manufacturers would intentionally make their products to wear down and break after certain time by using too low current. But imho it's more likely that those switches are just wearing down due to natural causes since in mice we've got a small switch, that's done cheaply like everything today, that receives a rather large force compared to its size, and gets insane number of operations. Stuff just wears down.
     
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,599
    edited August 2022
    Vrika said:
    ...snip...
    I decided to answer it after all:

    First picture you posted tells conditions used for shock test. I don't know what makes you think it's the "min spec" for that component. Second picture looks like typical conditions.

    The third picture has actual minimum ratings for a switch - but not for the D2FC switch. Maybe you can find similar picture for D2FC -switches somewhere?

    The third picture also tells that those D2F-01 -switches have huge operating range: Ranging from 1 mA to 100 mA, and from 5V to probably 24V or something? (not visible on the picture). Switches typically have huge operating ranges like that, so it's not like that would be hard to hit.



    Though now that I think about it's, it's possible that the manufacturers would intentionally make their products to wear down and break after certain time by using too low current. But imho it's more likely that those switches are just wearing down due to natural causes since in mice we've got a small switch, that's done cheaply like everything today, that receives a rather large force compared to its size, and gets insane number of operations. Stuff just wears down.

    No, it's not just shock range. The whole pdf is showing the conditions, aka specifications, these are tested and are specced to work at.  It's the whole range they are guaranteed to work right at.

    The 3rd pic you are shown two basic models of the switches that have different specs and yes they have quite a range (30v) HOWEVER the min range for their optimal operation and at which they were tested is 5v min and 1ma or 100ma min depending on which model you look at.

    Current mice operate in the range circled in blue instead of like previously when mice work at the min 5v range of the switches.

    The circuitry has evolved over time.  That's why companies try to control issues like bounce via software when they know very well it's all rooted in hardware issues however why sell a mice once 5 years when you could sell one every 1 to 2 years?

    TBH it's not like some evil conspiracy where companies thought lets screw over our clientele. It's more that circuitry design has shifted since we want to use less power due to having lots of non wired peripherals and peeps like or want wireless etc etc

    However they want to keep using older designed switches cause welp those omrons were pretty good back in the day and became renown so they should still be good today...right lol...... however like I said above inner circuitry has changed to wanting to use less volts inside so those chips inside use 3.3 volts instead of 5volts which is the min these switches are guaranteed to work good at.

    This lead to companies trying to use firmware to fix problems however you can only do so much with software to compensate for hardware problems and these switches running under the intended in volts affects bounce, chattering and polling rates which ironically today mice tend to have also higher polling rates.

    Basically these switches today are running in BS wtf land, in the blue circle, instead of we are good to go greenland area which is along the 5v mark and higher.

    That's why these switches worked so well in say the mx518 original mouse but not so well in new mice today.

    It's not a conspiracy however companies know very well it is a hardware issue and are kind of complicit in ignoring the issues cause it leads to more sales.


    Not going to argue that wear isn't part of it but the wear has much quicker effect and impact due to all of the above and like I said we are not using the mice in the use conditions they were tested at so that lower voltage it's like just the push needed for mice to be crappy nowadays and have clicking issues compared to before when looking at why old mice might have lasted much longer using the same switches.

    btw the D2F"C" means they were made in china..that what the C means. the same switch that has no C like the D2F is made in japan and is of better quality.

    The D2FC have much sloppier tolerances, less quality in the metal and pretty much everything compared to the jap D2F version.

    The -01. or lack of, in switch numbers indicated the spring material used gold plated or silver plated etc.

    -F usually is spring rate like 75grams, it is generally accpeted that the C version are 60grams instead of 75 like the jap ones.

    -K I do believe is a china hybrid attempt to make them work better in mice  a non k might crap out after a couple months while the k version might last a year or a bit more

    (xx) is lifespan or number of million of clicks it is suppose to last for but lets be real they never last that long

    other numbers indicate other things like T indicates a self clinching terminal or say L which indicate it has a lever.


    Post edited by Asm0deus on

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    edited August 2022
    Asm0deus said:
    No, it's not just shock range. The whole pdf is showing the conditions, aka specifications, these are tested and are specced to work at.  It's the whole range they are guaranteed to work right at.

    The 3rd pic you are shown two basic models of the switches that have different specs and yes they have quite a range (30v) HOWEVER the min range for their optimal operation and at which they were tested is 5v min and 1ma or 100ma min depending on which model you look at.

    Current mice operate in the range circled in blue instead of like previously when mice work at the min 5v range of the switches.

    The circuitry has evolved over time.  That's why companies try to control issues like bounce via software when they know very well it's all rooted in hardware issues however why sell a mice once 5 years when you could sell one every 1 to 2 years?

    TBH it's not like some evil conspiracy where companies thought lets screw over our clientele. It's more that circuitry design has shifted since we want to use less power due to having lots of non wired peripherals and peeps like or want wireless etc etc

    However they want to keep using older designed switches cause welp those omrons were pretty good back in the day and became renown so they should still be good today...right lol...... however like I said above inner circuitry has changed to wanting to use less volts inside so those chips inside use 3.3 volts instead of 5volts which is the min these switches are guaranteed to work good at.

    This lead to companies trying to use firmware to fix problems however you can only do so much with software to compensate for hardware problems and these switches running under the intended in volts affects bounce, chattering and polling rates which ironically today mice tend to have also higher polling rates.

    Basically these switches today are running in BS wtf land, in the blue circle, instead of we are good to go greenland area which is along the 5v mark and higher.

    That's why these switches worked so well in say the mx518 original mouse but not so well in new mice today.

    It's not a conspiracy however companies know very well it is a hardware issue and are kind of complicit in ignoring the issues cause it leads to more sales.


    Not going to argue that wear isn't part of it but the wear has much quicker effect and impact due to all of the above and like I said we are not using the mice in the use conditions they were tested at so that lower voltage it's like just the push needed for mice to be crappy nowadays and have clicking issues compared to before when looking at why old mice might have lasted much longer using the same switches.

    btw the D2F"C" means they were made in china..that what the C means. the same switch that has no C like the D2F is made in japan and is of better quality.

    The D2FC have much sloppier tolerances, less quality in the metal and pretty much everything compared to the jap D2F version.

    The -01. or lack of, in switch numbers indicated the spring material used gold plated or silver plated etc.

    -F usually is spring rate like 75grams, it is generally accpeted that the C version are 60grams instead of 75 like the jap ones.

    -K I do believe is a china hybrid attempt to make them work better in mice  a non k might crap out after a couple months while the k version might last a year or a bit more

    (xx) is lifespan or number of million of clicks it is suppose to last for but lets be real they never last that long

    other numbers indicate other things like T indicates a self clinching terminal or say L which indicate it has a lever.


    I looked into it a bit more. 





    This picture your used comes from Omron's DF2 datasheet, which can be found here:
       https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-d2f.pdf


    If you look at Omron's model numbering on first page of that document, DF2-01 switches are rated for 30 VDC and 100mA. If you then look at the full version of that operating range chart, 30V and 100 mA is the maximum point of its operating range:
     




    You posted before this picture of D2FC-F-7N



    It's rated for DC6V 1mA - which would mean that's the maximum point of its operating range.

    We don't know what the minimum is. But for D2F-10 switches the minimum voltage is 1/6 of maximum voltage and at that voltage minimum current is 1/100 of maximum current. If we use those to approximate D2FC-F-7N's operating range, it would start at 1V and 0.01mA.


    EDIT: In practice I don't think D2FC-F-7N goes that low since it gets harder to make parts that work reliably at such low voltages and currents without suffering from oxidation. But if maximum is DC6V 1mA, then whatever modern mice use is likely to be well within its operating range.

     
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