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'Action Combat' and the 'Decline' of Social Interaction

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  • Ralphie2449Ralphie2449 Member UncommonPosts: 577
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.
    AlBQuirkyIselinUngood
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited August 2022
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.
    I'd say the pendulum may have swung a bit too far the other way. While almost all MMORPGs have group centric content, few have much in the way of open world group content.

    ESO and Lost Ark do to some extent, but it tends to be more open, zergball in design with few opportunities for coordinated group play in the open world instead of being mostly in instant dungeons.

    For better or worse





    AlBQuirkyMendel

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  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,386
    edited August 2022
    When I was playing FFXIV I was never able to talk as a white mage. The tank would ask if it was okay to go fast which meant I hardly had time to breath. I had everything mapped to my mouse and I would just heal like mad and remove all the debuffs and if I can manage it  a DD or so.

    It was exhausting. 

    It has nothing to do with the times meaning the fact that it is a newer game than Everquest. Take FFXI for instance in that I played a Red Mage/White Mage and I had these ridiculous buffs that expired every 5 minutes plus debuffing duty and off heals. Again it was hectic as hell. I hardly talked there either.

    The only games I chatted a lot in was Everquest and City of Heroes when it came out because they had a voice program that my guild used. That was the very first time I used a microphone while playing. I could play my controller and chat since I was just using the voice and not my hands to talk.

    It depends on how hectic the game is and if voice is present. You can talk and interact a lot with voice. Most games I can barely keep up with the skills let alone type because I am usually the healer or crowd control. I could do it in Everquest, type leisurely because it had a lot of downtime.

    In WoW we talked a bit in tells because if it was a raid I had to pay attention. No mistakes. In LoTRO I used the in built voice chat but my voice was so shrill in it I was told to shut up.
    AlBQuirkykitaradThe_KorriganKyleran
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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Kyleran said:



     design with few opportunities for coordinated group play in the open world instead of being mostly in instant dungeons.

    For better or worse





    Yes,
    That's how ESO is "few opportunities" for group play.  Other than that it is extremely easy and no need group interaction.

    It's s simple game with auto everything like a crossword puzzle that has the letters pre-filled in.
  • SensaiSensai Member UncommonPosts: 222
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.
    I still don't understand this mindset.   If you are so anti interaction and grouping,  why choose mmorpgs?  Worse, why applaud the dumbing down of the genre to satisfy soloers when literally every other genre is designed for solo play, and does it better?
    AlBQuirkydeniter

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Sensai said:
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.
    I still don't understand this mindset.   If you are so anti interaction and grouping,  why choose mmorpgs?  Worse, why applaud the dumbing down of the genre to satisfy soloers when literally every other genre is designed for solo play, and does it better?
    He's not wrong though. Socializing in MMOs is glorified by some as the ultimate MMO experience when the reality is that even way back in the early days, when the overland combat was designed around grouping, players spent a lot more time solo than in groups because it has always been hard to get all the people you enjoy socializing with to come together in the game on the same schedule.

    The options of what you could do while soloing were very limited though - it was mostly crafting and gathering easy mats when all mobs were tuned for groups.

    What I find puzzling is the lack of understanding of the quantity of solo time we have all spent in MMOs.

    The biggest difference these days is in the variety of things you can do solo. That's not just catering to the anti-social and casuals, it's developing for the reality of how MMOs are actually  played.

    If you go to the beach alone do you go there to socialize with strangers or just to enjoy the beach?

    MMO games are no different. You can socialize in them but that's not a requirement. They can be enjoyed for many other reasons.


    SovrathMendelChampieThe_KorriganAlBQuirkyachesomadragonlee66
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  • TheDalaiBombaTheDalaiBomba Member EpicPosts: 1,493
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.
    Then just play a singleplayer or small multiplayer game, where the combat, narrative, world design, graphics, and combat mechanics are all literally a generation or more ahead of MMORPGs.
    AlBQuirky
  • Ralphie2449Ralphie2449 Member UncommonPosts: 577
    Sensai said:
    I still don't understand this mindset.   If you are so anti interaction and grouping,  why choose mmorpgs?  Worse, why applaud the dumbing down of the genre to satisfy soloers when literally every other genre is designed for solo play, and does it better?
    Because other players existing improves MY gameplay experience without ever requiring me to interact with them.

    When I clear a dungeon with people I care very little about beating a scripted NPC, I do enjoy the DPS meter wars which requires other human players.

    Playing with the game's market/economy and trying to get a piece of the market also requires other players

    When I brainlessly grind to reach max gear to optimize my own build to more efficiently kill players or have better dps also requires other people.



    Why do I applaud that the genre is becoming more solo friendly? Because raidlogging and forced group content hurts mmorpgs by pushing away players that could have stayed if they were rewarded for their time spend.

    Putting the best rewards behind raids forces you to raid, and guess what happens if you login and there's no decent players online at the time?
    You cant do anything, you might as well logout because solo content has been gutted in terms of power rewards so badly your only option is to logout.

    People pretend forced group content is the real mmorpg but forced group content is just turning mmorpgs into lobby games where you wait for a decent group, sometimes waiting for hours. And guilds are not much more reliable, they often die throughout patch cycles so you have to go through the same process again and again, at some point you stop bothering.

    Mmorpgs need to be more solo friendly because even to this day we have devs who believe raiding/raiders are speshiul and deserve more things than every one else even though group content is merely giving the illusion of challenge by its nature.


    I say let everyone get access to everything through multiple types of content and a lot of grinding if the content is easy, but that will enrage raiders since their self worth depends on having things others dont have and people even having access to their speshiul rewards enrages them xd
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited August 2022
    You can replace the waiting for grind with other forms of waiting, but as players we have to wait if we are going to talk. You could have downtime in an Inn after too much PvP or indeed PvE. But the move to action combat, "the loop", the way dailies are now used and so on does not give time to talk.

    Voice chat does not look outward it looks inward; increasingly to your friends rather than your guild in the game. This means you live in a gaming bubble which does not change as you move from one game to another, a recipe for boredom if ever there was one.

    Many of us use our guilds to get around these problems but that's still looking inwards really.

    I favour using both VC and text chat, but is everyone on VC talking at the same time? Usually it is the usual suspects, so its just another channel not a group chat really, where as text chat enables a lot of people to all chip in.
    Post edited by Scot on
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited August 2022
    Welcome back Korrigan...everyone gets a welcome back including you. :)

    No sign of Worldsbestdad yet?
    AlBQuirky
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  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.

    I'm definitely casual these days, and I totally disagree with you when you're saying that we aren't interested in social interactions.

    As often, Iselin says it best in his post. When before, when not grouping, we were severely limited in the activities we could do solo, today we can do a ton of different stuff, including some social/RPG stuff like music for instance. That doesn't stop us from grouping too.

    I'm also appalled when people still believe that the only way to socialize in a MMORPG is to group with others to bash monsters.


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  • SensaiSensai Member UncommonPosts: 222
    edited August 2022
    Iselin said:
    Sensai said:
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.
    I still don't understand this mindset.   If you are so anti interaction and grouping,  why choose mmorpgs?  Worse, why applaud the dumbing down of the genre to satisfy soloers when literally every other genre is designed for solo play, and does it better?
    He's not wrong though. Socializing in MMOs is glorified by some as the ultimate MMO experience when the reality is that even way back in the early days, when the overland combat was designed around grouping, players spent a lot more time solo than in groups because it has always been hard to get all the people you enjoy socializing with to come together in the game on the same schedule.

    The options of what you could do while soloing were very limited though - it was mostly crafting and gathering easy mats when all mobs were tuned for groups.

    What I find puzzling is the lack of understanding of the quantity of solo time we have all spent in MMOs.

    The biggest difference these days is in the variety of things you can do solo. That's not just catering to the anti-social and casuals, it's developing for the reality of how MMOs are actually  played.

    If you go to the beach alone do you go there to socialize with strangers or just to enjoy the beach?

    MMO games are no different. You can socialize in them but that's not a requirement. They can be enjoyed for many other reasons.


    And yet people still don't understand why they are less and less satisfied with the mmorpg experience even with more and more solo content. Developers have added more solo content to bring in more players,  not because it was desired by the majority of the gaming population or that it is reflective of how games were actually played.

    As for your beach analogy, swing and a miss.  If you purposely choose to go to the most visited, high traffic beach and then bitch about all the people there,  that's on you.  There are more secluded and less trafficked beaches you could choose from if it was really all about the beach, hintity hint hint.
    AlBQuirky

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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Kyleran said:



     design with few opportunities for coordinated group play in the open world instead of being mostly in instant dungeons.

    For better or worse





    Yes,
    That's how ESO is "few opportunities" for group play.  Other than that it is extremely easy and no need group interaction.

    It's s simple game with auto everything like a crossword puzzle that has the letters pre-filled in.

    Your knowledge of ESO is next to non-existent. There are abundant opportunities for group play from casual cooperation in base difficulty content to veteran hardmode trials that require formed groups of twelve geared and skilled players.

    You'd do well to confine your evaluations to games you are decently knowledgeable about so as not to misinform the reader with regularity.
    AlBQuirkyKyleranThe_Korrigan
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Sensai said:
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.
    I still don't understand this mindset.   If you are so anti interaction and grouping,  why choose mmorpgs?  Worse, why applaud the dumbing down of the genre to satisfy soloers when literally every other genre is designed for solo play, and does it better?

    My two cents here, but I agree with some of the replies already.

    - MMOs usually have "larger" (relatively speaking) worlds to explore than most single player games.

    - MMOs have "updates" to the games that single player games have in sporadic DLCs if at all.

    - "Interaction" has MANY forms beside grouping. I played a "druid-type" character in Skyrim who loved nature. I came across a mammoth being attacked and I tried to heal them, using "heal other." I was promptly attacked by said mammoth. In EQ, I LOVED doing "drive-by healing" for players having difficulty in a fight. Look! Interaction!

    - Other players in the game affect one's own decisions which single player games lack.

    I hope that helps you understand why players may play MMOs instead of a single player game.
    Kyleran

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    AlBQuirky said:

    I hope that helps you understand why players may play MMOs instead of a single player game.

    You "could" have role played that the mammoth didn't understand what you were doing and was just lashing out at the nearest being.

    Still, that has nothing to do with mmorpg vs single player game and more to do with how the game was programmed.


    AlBQuirky
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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:

    I hope that helps you understand why players may play MMOs instead of a single player game.

    You "could" have role played that the mammoth didn't understand what you were doing and was just lashing out at the nearest being.

    Still, that has nothing to do with mmorpg vs single player game and more to do with how the game was programmed.



    I could "role play" A LOT of things. Yes, it is a limitation of the game/programming, but still a limitation.

    I can "role play" in Tetris if I imagine myself as a dock worker loading a truck for shipment. So what?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,768
    I'd argue that gamers are much more social and engaged, it just all happens on Discord now. Even that PUG in WoW, where no one says anything in chat, most likely a player or 2 is chatting with their own guild on Discord while running a dungeon.
    AlBQuirky
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited August 2022
    achesoma said:
    I'd argue that gamers are much more social and engaged, it just all happens on Discord now. Even that PUG in WoW, where no one says anything in chat, most likely a player or 2 is chatting with their own guild on Discord while running a dungeon.
    And that's much more socially engaged, two players chatting on discord while no one else in the party is talking or texting?

    Some MMOs have voice chat options, would be interesting to hear from players how much official VC gets used?
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • TheDalaiBombaTheDalaiBomba Member EpicPosts: 1,493
    Because reality is most casual players arent interested in social interactions, we play mmorpg for fun, for the grind, for the rewards, not to talk with other people.

    Many old fashioned hardcore social mmo people forget that a lot more people either dont join guilds or join those huge random invite ones for the benefits so they arent on discord voice chat either.

    Gaming as a whole has become less social and thankfully some devs are realizing that and making their game accordingly instead of trying to force social interaction on people who clearly dont want it.

    I'm definitely casual these days, and I totally disagree with you when you're saying that we aren't interested in social interactions.

    As often, Iselin says it best in his post. When before, when not grouping, we were severely limited in the activities we could do solo, today we can do a ton of different stuff, including some social/RPG stuff like music for instance. That doesn't stop us from grouping too.

    I'm also appalled when people still believe that the only way to socialize in a MMORPG is to group with others to bash monsters.


    Music is rather old, though.  SWG included musicians, entertainers, and long-term doctor buffs at the dawn of the genre.

    There are many more ways to progress today, I don't think there are many more *social* ways to progress.  At best, some titles include about the same amount of that as some of those first-gen titles.

    Which, let's be honest: is absolutely, 100% a failure on the part of the genre to use evolving technology and design philosophy to leverage its best feature.  We should be seeing the 3rd or 4th iterative evolution if things like the music system, evolving in ways that make it more immersive and more connected to the world and server community.

    Unfortunately, that social aspect has been pretty much ignored by the mainline titles.  Most of those have, instead, included content that is straight up designed for one person to play through, sometimes to the point where a Massively Multipayer game forces you to do some of its content alone.  Not just offers the option: requires it.  That is just insane.
    AlBQuirky
  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,768
    Scot said:
    achesoma said:
    I'd argue that gamers are much more social and engaged, it just all happens on Discord now. Even that PUG in WoW, where no one says anything in chat, most likely a player or 2 is chatting with their own guild on Discord while running a dungeon.
    And that's much more socially engaged, two players chatting on discord while no one else in the party is talking or texting?

    Yes. Social engagement hasn't decreased, the dynamic of how people socialize has changed. It's no different when 2 players dominate the chat while most players say nothing. The difference is now you don't see the conversation about some dude's deadbeat, brother-in-law living on his couch.
    AlBQuirky
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited August 2022
    Scot said:
    achesoma said:
    I'd argue that gamers are much more social and engaged, it just all happens on Discord now. Even that PUG in WoW, where no one says anything in chat, most likely a player or 2 is chatting with their own guild on Discord while running a dungeon.
    And that's much more socially engaged, two players chatting on discord while no one else in the party is talking or texting?

    Some MMOs have voice chat options, would be interesting to hear from players how much official VC gets used?
    Been my experience, especially in a situation where there are a large number of players in a Discord or voice chat the conversation is dominated by a small group of folks, gabbing about God knows what, while everyone else sits in silence or drops to another channel.

    Text chat has the advantage in that if I'm busy as heck, or can't get others attention in voice, I can go back to read and reply when it's convenient to do so.

    If it has been awhile I might even quickly say in voice chat that I posted something to them so as to not disrupt or dominate the conversation with my own concerns.

    To those folks who say they love voice chat, you probably are the "babblers" that are annoying the rest of us with your incessant chatter about non gaming related matters.

    ;)


    ScotAlBQuirky

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  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,832
    Scot said:
    achesoma said:
    I'd argue that gamers are much more social and engaged, it just all happens on Discord now. Even that PUG in WoW, where no one says anything in chat, most likely a player or 2 is chatting with their own guild on Discord while running a dungeon.
    And that's much more socially engaged, two players chatting on discord while no one else in the party is talking or texting?

    Some MMOs have voice chat options, would be interesting to hear from players how much official VC gets used?

    the only MMO i played with built in voice chat was LotRO.


    I personally feel that the inbuilt voice chat is one of the core reasons why the early game was so PUG and group friendly. Given the depth of the combat mechanics, communication and tactics were extremely important to success and so good comms were vital.


    The game basically trained you from day 1 to seek out groups, to discuss tactics and to work together. It had the friendliest community I've ever been a part of. It's the only game really where respected PUG leaders were a thing. Whilst guild groups would usually clear raids first, PUG raids weren't too far behind, something that would have been impossible without the inbuilt voice chat.



    So, I would say the game's VC was used a lot, and very successfully. PvP was the area where it was most heavily used and most effective, going from LotRO to WAR was a real shock because a pug raid in pvp just sucks without voice chat.
    ScotAlBQuirky
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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Scot said:
    achesoma said:
    I'd argue that gamers are much more social and engaged, it just all happens on Discord now. Even that PUG in WoW, where no one says anything in chat, most likely a player or 2 is chatting with their own guild on Discord while running a dungeon.
    And that's much more socially engaged, two players chatting on discord while no one else in the party is talking or texting?

    Some MMOs have voice chat options, would be interesting to hear from players how much official VC gets used?
    Voice chat makes sense to me in focused group activities like group PvP, Trials and even group dungeons. It's 100% better than text chat in those situations.

    But I have no use for it otherwise and will stay away from guilds that make Discord mandatory like quite a few do these days.

    The_KorriganSovrathScotAlBQuirky
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  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 3,238
    Dattelis said:
    ... many people had the time to talk so much back in the day, maybe because things all around were just slower and less 'linear.'
    The topic comes every now and again over the years.  I actually DO talk while I'm gaming... just not to Randoms.  For quite a few years I have exclusively used Voice Chat to talk to ACTUAL real life friends and family, who could be playing other games or just surfing the Internet.  I wouldn't waste my time in a game typing into the Chat Box because game populations are so transient - I might never see them again anyway.  This is the reason I have no real interest in people simply because they are playing the same game as me.  
    The_KorriganAlBQuirky
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