Drug use in kids under 18 is a parenting issue. So we should just ignore the dealers and focus on the parents. That’s the equivalent argument some are making.
In reality, whether a parent is doing a poor job is quite a separate issue from whether these companies are intentionally targeting and exploiting kids. Both can be true but that doesn’t mean we ignore the company’s role.
I am not making the false equivalence you contend.
In reality poor parental control is what allows children to have access to and spend large amounts of money on anything, and can contribute to their delinquency otherwise.
Why is it that whenever the subject of predatory monetization in games that target children are brought up some of you always want to talk about parenting?
It is relevant.
It may be relevant to the eventual outcome but it's totally irrelevant to the discussion of the predatory marketing practice.
It comes across as a disingenuous attempt to give the predator a pass likely for some political reason related to endorsing laissez-faire capitalism.
The eventual outcome is not irrelevant to the discussion of predatory marketing practices. Such are only an issue when they lead to negative eventual outcomes.
Negative outcomes avoided are not problematic. As such, the capacity for avoidance and ways by which it can be done are just as much part of the issue as the source of them.
It's not disingenuous, but does extend the analysis of the issue to be more all encompassing which makes better results from such all the likely. Your reference to laissez-faire is just plain silly.
Comes down to parenting. And how the kid was raised and taught ..
Entirely so, for very young children... but progressively less so as the child ages. Supervision becomes less direct over time. Opportunities for discretionary spending increase, due to allowance often initially and later from earned money. Delinquency potential increases with age and exposure to non-parental influences, which may lead to related theft through unauthorized credit card use or simply the taking of money.
Even raising and teaching a child well does not guarantee an ideal or even good outcome, but at least helps to increase those odds.
The best argument for the removal of chance based purchases from games is their potential bad influence on children at an age where they are less equipped to mentally protect themselves from such compared to most adults.
Even if the kids can't purchase them, it is conceivably believable they may still be affected by their allure which may come back to haunt them in later years when such purchases can be made.
Both the parental and company responsibility arguments have merit when children are involved, which is what mainly makes it interesting to discuss. If one was clearly right and the other wrong there wouldn't be much to talk about.
I have raised 3 kids , youngest is now 11 , none of them ever had the ability to online purchase , without me actually making the purchase.Till they were 16 , and then it was still controlled with a low limit card . And even with that they still ask me or there Mother if they can get something..Simple as that, Simple parenting ..
So I'll ask anyone with kids here in the demographic, have any of your kids done this rampant addictive out of control spending that is the uproar .
Waiting for responses.
I'm glad it went so well for you. Such is not universal in even the best of conditions.
Thx for your response , so , so far Noone.
None of my kids were hooked on drugs, pregnant as a teen or sex trafficked either. That doesn't mean I cannot acknowledge that each of those is a problem.
Thx for the response , another , No.
Hint- When you ask meaningless questions you are going to get few responses and will likely be meaningless as well.
Being meaningless in terms of the whole doesn't prevent the posting of a small number of extreme cases as evidence of unfathomable peril. I don't see why any responses to his query need be of a higher standard or great in quantity to draw similarly sweeping conclusions as equally meaningful.
Because you are making another false equivalency. The effect of LootBoxes on children has actual scientific studies demonstrating how it's targeted and how it affects them.
But sure... we can put up a post buried in a random MMORPG.COM thread and after 5 hours of no responses say they are both basically equal.
Of course loot boxes are so targeted. A solitary drunk monkey could conclude that. For the claimed affects on children I would have to see the research myself to determine how much is genuinely scientific and how much is science-coated bias for the purpose of pushing agenda. I'm open to possibility it is as valid as you seem to feel, but will not take assertion as evidence it is so.
Sorry, I have things to do other than post in your contrived time bracket of that not notable since the last post previous. I get to it when I get to it.
Drug use in kids under 18 is a parenting issue. So we should just ignore the dealers and focus on the parents. That’s the equivalent argument some are making.
In reality, whether a parent is doing a poor job is quite a separate issue from whether these companies are intentionally targeting and exploiting kids. Both can be true but that doesn’t mean we ignore the company’s role.
I am not making the false equivalence you contend.
In reality poor parental control is what allows children to have access to and spend large amounts of money on anything, and can contribute to their delinquency otherwise.
In reality poor parenting is what allows children to have access to environments where drug use is rampant and can contribute to their delinquency.
Again- Meaningless.
That doesn't mean that you do not address drug dealers/company
Adequate parenting or lack thereof are never meaningless.
Illegal drugs and their sale are targeted at multiple levels. The illegal sale of legal drugs is also so targeted. Neither have any relevance to in game purchases.
I don’t think you are following the conversation. Either purposefully or honestly.
The parent argument is meaningless in that it doesn’t excuse the company. And as for the drugs yes that is my point. They are addressed on multiple levels. We don’t just say “parents “ and excuse the source.
Well the difference is , the parent has full control of the use/exposure and access to The PC and CC and inputting the info approving open use. .
For the drug comparison to be compatable , you would assume the parent is putting a dealer in the kids room and saying don't use drugs there bad and walking away.
Nope.
There are countless ways around that. Maybe on their phones. Maybe at their friends house. And you don't always need a credit card. You can use the ever popular gamecards which can be bought for cash.
Then there is the FACT that teenagers can actually, you know, have jobs. And earn money.
The length that some of you will go to excuse companies is kind of crazy. Nobody I know is saying that parents have no responsibility for their kids but the ultimate root cause is the companies who are targeting those kids.
Please provide the scientific proof that companies are directly targeting children (rather than gamers in general) in a predatory manner..and not just one or two odd outliers...or old articles from years ago.
I took courses in college that discussed how to target children with cartoons, color scheme, type faces , wording ect. Literally designing pop culture.
None of which is considered illegal or "predatory", it's called marketing.
These days every molehill has to be a mountain, so marketing efforts to persuade are now predation.
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Comes down to parenting. And how the kid was raised and taught ..
Entirely so, for very young children... but progressively less so as the child ages. Supervision becomes less direct over time. Opportunities for discretionary spending increase, due to allowance often initially and later from earned money. Delinquency potential increases with age and exposure to non-parental influences, which may lead to related theft through unauthorized credit card use or simply the taking of money.
Even raising and teaching a child well does not guarantee an ideal or even good outcome, but at least helps to increase those odds.
The best argument for the removal of chance based purchases from games is their potential bad influence on children at an age where they are less equipped to mentally protect themselves from such compared to most adults.
Even if the kids can't purchase them, it is conceivably believable they may still be affected by their allure which may come back to haunt them in later years when such purchases can be made.
Both the parental and company responsibility arguments have merit when children are involved, which is what mainly makes it interesting to discuss. If one was clearly right and the other wrong there wouldn't be much to talk about.
I have raised 3 kids , youngest is now 11 , none of them ever had the ability to online purchase , without me actually making the purchase.Till they were 16 , and then it was still controlled with a low limit card . And even with that they still ask me or there Mother if they can get something..Simple as that, Simple parenting ..
So I'll ask anyone with kids here in the demographic, have any of your kids done this rampant addictive out of control spending that is the uproar .
Waiting for responses.
I'm glad it went so well for you. Such is not universal in even the best of conditions.
Thx for your response , so , so far Noone.
None of my kids were hooked on drugs, pregnant as a teen or sex trafficked either. That doesn't mean I cannot acknowledge that each of those is a problem.
Thx for the response , another , No.
Hint- When you ask meaningless questions you are going to get few responses and will likely be meaningless as well.
Got it , so far in this entire community we have NO examples firsthand , of this widespread addictive out iof control child spending ..
Yeah… zero of 3 people. You should get this published in The New England Journal of Medicine or something.
Well this is a large community , so waiting on reply, so far we have nome aside from weak sarcasm and definitive Nos.
But , what to you attribute your success to in avoiding such child rearing pitfalls, Good Parenting orrrrr Luck .
Both.
Good , good so safe to say that Good Parenting is what helped your kids avoid such pitfalls , and another example of cause and effect that work ..
So far we have NO examples examples in this microcosm of out of control addictive child spending.
I wonder if it's because we have alot of good parenting or as is in many of these social outcry issues the voices are louder than the problem .
It is also worth noting that if the game is marked adult (which many are and the EULA states responsibility), the parent is directly to blame from the get go.For permitting the child access to content it should not have , and/or not checking what there child is accessing on there devices . In addition it is very easy to set up blocks/filters on all these devices as safeguards for yourself and child . Normal stuff a caring parent should be doing in this environment.
But I digress , bbl , I have to take my 11 year old to his BB championship at the Y today , then to Lowes for grasseed and hay , after his chores , I generally put his allowance in a box in my office , sometimes he asked for some to buy Sports cards etc , most he asks to put into his bank account. Smart kid or good parenting ... I wonder again.
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
Curious , before I go , Do you have kids in the demographic?
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
Curious , before I go , Do you have kids in the demographic?
My oldest is approaching 40 and has been a computer games developer for nearly 20 years now and my youngest is 25 and is not a gamer.
All of which is totally irrelevant to the subject of exploitative and sleazy gaming monetization just like all of your self-congratulatory dribble about parenting is.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Duly noted , so not that completely invalidates your opinion , but you have NO real life parenting experience relative to the subject and No horse in the race , more or less an activist voice . And that's understandable, every social issue seems to get outcry from pure activists voices , they are generally the loudest also.
Let's discuss this further as was pointed out by our friend Slap several posts back .
His children have also not been caught up in any of the world's terrible activities (drugs/alcohol/ sex trafficking etc.) Thank God
Now , why is that did the parent take the initiative to protect there child from these nefarious activities in the world , did the parent counsel advice and look after there child relative to all the world's terrible issues.. The parent made the effort and took the time to Protect there child , relative to all these things, knowing the Goverment and Corp already have guardrails and laws in place . The Parent is the 1st defense against all these horrible things .
The Parent is the first Defense against online predatory. ANYTHING.
The Parent does not Trust Government and Corps to protect there child in any of these other terrible activities.
Why is the subject any different , why would any caring parent expect different and not protect there child (and themselves) from these Real world bad actors and activities in the same manner.
Personally , I would not trust any of these entities to protect me or my child , to do so is foolish at best.
There are ample guardrails in place now to do such . Blaming Corp/ Government is weak in this regard ..
Child should not be playing Adult or Teen + games. Parent should be reading EULA .. Parent should be setting Blocks and Filters on all devices .. Parent should NEVER set up a child with an app that purchases can be made without autorization. Etc..
There are more tools at a Parents disposal.
Really common sense things .
But most of all , I do not think any sane parent is Trusting and hoping Corp and government will protect there child and the parent from themselves , Relative to any of these real world issues in this environment, Why would anyone treat and expect anything else from online purchases .
Is anyone really going to trust the Goverment and Corps to add a couple regulations , and then Say " OK Bobby log on have fun " Without applying good parenting after that ..of course not , same as you do not drop your kid off in Kensington. And say or assume its OK police have lots of Laws and regulations in place and say " have fun. Pick ya up later ."
i'm not the best speller or grammar so there for sorry if i don't make much sense. Anyway i don't think this genre is in trouble or dying off but i think it's actually oppsite. there has been more promising mmorpgs that is coming out sooon but then again i'm not holding my breath cause we have been seeing it time & time again where got so much hype then turned out to be crap in many ways. first off mmorpgs in my option is easly the hardest & most expensive genre to work with it's pretty much a big risk almost like a PvP full loot where most likly gonna lose everything if don't really know what you're doing or think you know & so on. most of these companies come in with only one thing on their mind is to make as much money as they can since WoW made billlions at their peak that they all want be part of that or more. it looks like some companies are finally starting to actually try make a good mmorpg for once. i think the biggest problem with mmorpgs now is my option is how they make their money which are many ways. now when it comes to money all companies needs to make money to help keep the game running & updated & pay for servers & the work forces which is totally understandable cause without money they can't keep the game going & all, but many companies are greedy to get as much money as they can get out of players with PTW or FTP which i think is the most expensive of any methic. yes FTP you don't have to pay a penny to play the game at all but they make it much harder or super grinding for people that doesn't pay a penny for the game that most of them give in & pay whatever it takes to make it easier & enjoyable to play the game. take a look at guild wars 1 & 2 they are one example of buy to own & never have to pay a fee & they are able to keep going & sucessful so we can see from that game that don't need all kinds of money from every players to to keep things running & all.
I just wish my companies would stop be so greedy for more money. really in my option if you make a really good mmorpgs that suits most players needs/wants in a mmorpgs & make it a pay to own without fees or a small like 5-10 dollars monthly fee that covers everything & have sponsters to support your game you can still make boatloads of money & everyone will be happy even the players too but that's my point of veiw if it makes any senses. also stop being cookie cutter & be creative & make it your own type of mmorpg you might be surprise i think more people are looking for a new fresh different type of mmorpg instead of same old BS but i could be wrong but you never know...
Duly noted , so not that completely invalidates your opinion , but you have NO real life parenting experience relative to the subject and No horse in the race , more or less an activist voice . And that's understandable, every social issue seems to get outcry from pure activists voices , they are generally the loudest also.
Let's discuss this further as was pointed out by our friend Slap several posts back .
His children have also not been caught up in any of the world's terrible activities (drugs/alcohol/ sex trafficking etc.) Thank God
Now , why is that did the parent take the initiative to protect there child from these nefarious activities in the world , did the parent counsel advice and look after there child relative to all the world's terrible issues.. The parent made the effort and took the time to Protect there child , relative to all these things, knowing the Goverment and Corp already have guardrails and laws in place . The Parent is the 1st defense against all these horrible things .
The Parent is the first Defense against online predatory. ANYTHING.
The Parent does not Trust Government and Corps to protect there child in any of these other terrible activities.
Why is the subject any different , why would any caring parent expect different and not protect there child (and themselves) from these Real world bad actors and activities in the same manner.
Personally , I would not trust any of these entities to protect me or my child , to do so is foolish at best.
There are ample guardrails in place now to do such . Blaming Corp/ Government is weak in this regard ..
Child should not be playing Adult or Teen + games. Parent should be reading EULA .. Parent should be setting Blocks and Filters on all devices .. Parent should NEVER set up a child with an app that purchases can be made without autorization. Etc..
There are more tools at a Parents disposal.
Really common sense things .
But most of all , I do not think any sane parent is Trusting and hoping Corp and government will protect there child and the parent from themselves , Relative to any if these real world issues in this environment, Why would anyone treat and expect anything else from online purchases .
Is anyone really going to trust the Goverment and Corps to add a couple regulations , and then Say " OK Bobby log on have fun " Without applying good parenting after that ..of course not , same as you do not drop your kid off in Kensington. And say orcassume its OK police have lots of Laws and regulations in place have fun. Pick ya up later .
Warm ups over. Game is about to start .
Talk to yas later and have a great day.
So just to be clear here: You believe that corporations should be free to target kids and try to exploit them. And it’s all about parenting?
Because that is what your posts continue to demonstrate.
Nobody I have seen has posted saying parents have no responsibility yet you continue to make a counterpoint to this fictitious position.
We don’t dispute that great parenting has positive impacts on kids lives. So we can skip the Dad of the year routine.
So: Do you agree that companies should not target and exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Duly noted , so not that completely invalidates your opinion , but you have NO real life parenting experience relative to the subject and No horse in the race , more or less an activist voice . And that's understandable, every social issue seems to get outcry from pure activists voices , they are generally the loudest also.
Let's discuss this further as was pointed out by our friend Slap several posts back .
His children have also not been caught up in any of the world's terrible activities (drugs/alcohol/ sex trafficking etc.) Thank God
Now , why is that did the parent take the initiative to protect there child from these nefarious activities in the world , did the parent counsel advice and look after there child relative to all the world's terrible issues.. The parent made the effort and took the time to Protect there child , relative to all these things, knowing the Goverment and Corp already have guardrails and laws in place . The Parent is the 1st defense against all these horrible things .
The Parent is the first Defense against online predatory. ANYTHING.
The Parent does not Trust Government and Corps to protect there child in any of these other terrible activities.
Why is the subject any different , why would any caring parent expect different and not protect there child (and themselves) from these Real world bad actors and activities in the same manner.
Personally , I would not trust any of these entities to protect me or my child , to do so is foolish at best.
There are ample guardrails in place now to do such . Blaming Corp/ Government is weak in this regard ..
Child should not be playing Adult or Teen + games. Parent should be reading EULA .. Parent should be setting Blocks and Filters on all devices .. Parent should NEVER set up a child with an app that purchases can be made without autorization. Etc..
There are more tools at a Parents disposal.
Really common sense things .
But most of all , I do not think any sane parent is Trusting and hoping Corp and government will protect there child and the parent from themselves , Relative to any if these real world issues in this environment, Why would anyone treat and expect anything else from online purchases .
Is anyone really going to trust the Goverment and Corps to add a couple regulations , and then Say " OK Bobby log on have fun " Without applying good parenting after that ..of course not , same as you do not drop your kid off in Kensington. And say orcassume its OK police have lots of Laws and regulations in place have fun. Pick ya up later .
Warm ups over. Game is about to start .
Talk to yas later and have a great day.
So just to be clear here: You believe that corporations should be free to target kids and try to exploit them. And it’s all about parenting?
Because that is what your posts continue to demonstrate.
Nobody I have seen has posted saying parents have no responsibility yet you continue to make a counterpoint to this fictitious position.
We don’t dispute that great parenting has positive impacts on kids lives. So we can skip the Dad of the year routine.
So: Do you agree that companies should not target and exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics?
I believe, there is not much we will ever be ae to do to regulate this . I believe that the parent should assume the worst in this regard ,And do not depend on or trust Government Corps to protect my child in any of these issues , Companies will always be and always will target kids to make money , Even the .25 sticker machines at your local diner were/are designed to do such . It's not going away , there will always be these problems across a vast spectrum in life ..
Parent is/was and will always be the best and first line of Defense /end
The parent actually has the tools and abilities to prevent any of this from happening at there fingertips .
Goverment/Corp can never will never or have the want and desire to protect your child better than you . Keep in mind some of thecsame entities you want to do more to protect your child are the same entities making money off the systems.
Duly noted , so not that completely invalidates your opinion , but you have NO real life parenting experience relative to the subject and No horse in the race , more or less an activist voice . And that's understandable, every social issue seems to get outcry from pure activists voices , they are generally the loudest also.
Let's discuss this further as was pointed out by our friend Slap several posts back .
His children have also not been caught up in any of the world's terrible activities (drugs/alcohol/ sex trafficking etc.) Thank God
Now , why is that did the parent take the initiative to protect there child from these nefarious activities in the world , did the parent counsel advice and look after there child relative to all the world's terrible issues.. The parent made the effort and took the time to Protect there child , relative to all these things, knowing the Goverment and Corp already have guardrails and laws in place . The Parent is the 1st defense against all these horrible things .
The Parent is the first Defense against online predatory. ANYTHING.
The Parent does not Trust Government and Corps to protect there child in any of these other terrible activities.
Why is the subject any different , why would any caring parent expect different and not protect there child (and themselves) from these Real world bad actors and activities in the same manner.
Personally , I would not trust any of these entities to protect me or my child , to do so is foolish at best.
There are ample guardrails in place now to do such . Blaming Corp/ Government is weak in this regard ..
Child should not be playing Adult or Teen + games. Parent should be reading EULA .. Parent should be setting Blocks and Filters on all devices .. Parent should NEVER set up a child with an app that purchases can be made without autorization. Etc..
There are more tools at a Parents disposal.
Really common sense things .
But most of all , I do not think any sane parent is Trusting and hoping Corp and government will protect there child and the parent from themselves , Relative to any if these real world issues in this environment, Why would anyone treat and expect anything else from online purchases .
Is anyone really going to trust the Goverment and Corps to add a couple regulations , and then Say " OK Bobby log on have fun " Without applying good parenting after that ..of course not , same as you do not drop your kid off in Kensington. And say orcassume its OK police have lots of Laws and regulations in place have fun. Pick ya up later .
Warm ups over. Game is about to start .
Talk to yas later and have a great day.
So just to be clear here: You believe that corporations should be free to target kids and try to exploit them. And it’s all about parenting?
Because that is what your posts continue to demonstrate.
Nobody I have seen has posted saying parents have no responsibility yet you continue to make a counterpoint to this fictitious position.
We don’t dispute that great parenting has positive impacts on kids lives. So we can skip the Dad of the year routine.
So: Do you agree that companies should not target and exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics?
I believe, there is not much we will ever be ae to do to regulate this . I believe that the parent should assume the worst in this regard ,And do not depend on or trust Government Corps to protect my child in any of these issues , Companies will always be and always will target kids to make money , Even the .25 sticker machines at your local diner were/are designed to do such . It's not going away , there will always be these problems across a vast spectrum in life ..
Parent is/was and will always be the best and first line of Defense /end
The parent actually has the tools and abilities to prevent any of this from happening at there fingertips .
Goverment/Corp can never will never or have the want and desire to protect your child better than you . Keep in mind some of thecsame entities you want to do more to protect your child are the same entities making money off the systems.
Its a yes/no answer.
You keep making arguments to points nobody else is presenting.
So in light of that I believe you are confirming that you are OK allowing companies to target an exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics.
Noted.
I guess they should be able to market and sell alcohol and cigarettes to kids too since a "parent is/was and will always be the best and first line of Defense/end"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
I think most would agree there is a need for better regulations and controls put on game developers to protect all consumers.
"Think of the children" is largely a disingenuous ploy to get controls on something people don't like, as few marketing campaigns such as loot boxes are directed specifically at children and near as I can tell adults are still the greatest purchasers of them in most games.
Doesn't mean children don't partake of them, they shouldn't but some so, same with any other controlled vice or product, from gambling, to drugs, to firearm abuse to illegal street racing and all the laws in the world do not stop some from doing wrong.
So in the end parental control is one of the few tools we have to protect children from themselves, and even then, no matter how much we try, failures will happen.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Duly noted , so not that completely invalidates your opinion , but you have NO real life parenting experience relative to the subject and No horse in the race , more or less an activist voice . And that's understandable, every social issue seems to get outcry from pure activists voices , they are generally the loudest also.
Let's discuss this further as was pointed out by our friend Slap several posts back .
His children have also not been caught up in any of the world's terrible activities (drugs/alcohol/ sex trafficking etc.) Thank God
Now , why is that did the parent take the initiative to protect there child from these nefarious activities in the world , did the parent counsel advice and look after there child relative to all the world's terrible issues.. The parent made the effort and took the time to Protect there child , relative to all these things, knowing the Goverment and Corp already have guardrails and laws in place . The Parent is the 1st defense against all these horrible things .
The Parent is the first Defense against online predatory. ANYTHING.
The Parent does not Trust Government and Corps to protect there child in any of these other terrible activities.
Why is the subject any different , why would any caring parent expect different and not protect there child (and themselves) from these Real world bad actors and activities in the same manner.
Personally , I would not trust any of these entities to protect me or my child , to do so is foolish at best.
There are ample guardrails in place now to do such . Blaming Corp/ Government is weak in this regard ..
Child should not be playing Adult or Teen + games. Parent should be reading EULA .. Parent should be setting Blocks and Filters on all devices .. Parent should NEVER set up a child with an app that purchases can be made without autorization. Etc..
There are more tools at a Parents disposal.
Really common sense things .
But most of all , I do not think any sane parent is Trusting and hoping Corp and government will protect there child and the parent from themselves , Relative to any if these real world issues in this environment, Why would anyone treat and expect anything else from online purchases .
Is anyone really going to trust the Goverment and Corps to add a couple regulations , and then Say " OK Bobby log on have fun " Without applying good parenting after that ..of course not , same as you do not drop your kid off in Kensington. And say orcassume its OK police have lots of Laws and regulations in place have fun. Pick ya up later .
Warm ups over. Game is about to start .
Talk to yas later and have a great day.
So just to be clear here: You believe that corporations should be free to target kids and try to exploit them. And it’s all about parenting?
Because that is what your posts continue to demonstrate.
Nobody I have seen has posted saying parents have no responsibility yet you continue to make a counterpoint to this fictitious position.
We don’t dispute that great parenting has positive impacts on kids lives. So we can skip the Dad of the year routine.
So: Do you agree that companies should not target and exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics?
I believe, there is not much we will ever be ae to do to regulate this . I believe that the parent should assume the worst in this regard ,And do not depend on or trust Government Corps to protect my child in any of these issues , Companies will always be and always will target kids to make money , Even the .25 sticker machines at your local diner were/are designed to do such . It's not going away , there will always be these problems across a vast spectrum in life ..
Parent is/was and will always be the best and first line of Defense /end
The parent actually has the tools and abilities to prevent any of this from happening at there fingertips .
Goverment/Corp can never will never or have the want and desire to protect your child better than you . Keep in mind some of thecsame entities you want to do more to protect your child are the same entities making money off the systems.
Its a yes/no answer.
You keep making arguments to points nobody else is presenting.
So in light of that I believe you are confirming that you are OK allowing companies to target an exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics.
Noted.
I guess they should be able to market and sell alcohol and cigarettes to kids too since a "parent is/was and will always be the best and first line of Defense/end"
Lol if you have followed along and read the thread you know that answer , you projecting like this does not help oradd to the dialog in any constructive way.
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
I think most would agree there is a need for better regulations and controls put on game developers to protect all consumers.
"Think of the children" is largely a disingenuous ploy to get controls on something people don't like, as few marketing campaigns such as loot boxes are directed specifically at children and near as I can tell adults are still the greatest purchasers of them in most games.
Doesn't mean children don't partake of them, they shouldn't but some so, same with any other controlled vice or product, from gambling, to drugs, to firearm abuse to illegal street racing and all the laws in the world do not stop some from doing wrong.
So in the end parental control is one of the few tools we have to protect children from themselves, and even then, no matter how much we try, failures will happen.
Parenting is definitely one of the tools as are laws and regulations and enforcement of those. The more of those factors that are present the better and the more effective the combination of all safeguards is.
And obviously, none of them are 100% effective (very much including parenting} or foolproof as evidenced by children drinking and doing drugs, getting a hold of firearms, etc.
The thing that I find annoying. and perhaps they're just verbal shortcuts, is the lack of acknowledgment of the sleazy behavior by the gaming companies before launching into essays about good parenting that is often the case in posts here.
And I don't think you have ever heard me using the "think of the children" argument when bashing P2W or loot boxes. I dislike their use in gaming because they cheapen my games. I don't need to go any further than that to want loot boxes and P2W mechanics the fuck out of my hobby.
They do obviously have the potential to disproportionately cause more harm to children and those adults that are more susceptible to the manipulations but even if that wasn't the case I would still hate this shit.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
I think most would agree there is a need for better regulations and controls put on game developers to protect all consumers.
"Think of the children" is largely a disingenuous ploy to get controls on something people don't like, as few marketing campaigns such as loot boxes are directed specifically at children and near as I can tell adults are still the greatest purchasers of them in most games.
Doesn't mean children don't partake of them, they shouldn't but some so, same with any other controlled vice or product, from gambling, to drugs, to firearm abuse to illegal street racing and all the laws in the world do not stop some from doing wrong.
So in the end parental control is one of the few tools we have to protect children from themselves, and even then, no matter how much we try, failures will happen.
Same as alcohol. It’s not like 15 year olds are their biggest market, but left alone we would have commercials with kids drinking a beer after hitting a home run in little league.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Parenting is definitely one of the tools as are laws and regulations and enforcement of those. The more of those factors that are present the better and the more effective the combination of all safeguards is.
And obviously, none of them are 100% effective (very much including parenting} or foolproof as evidenced by children drinking and doing drugs, getting a hold of firearms, etc.
The thing that I find annoying. and perhaps they're just verbal shortcuts, is the lack of acknowledgment of the sleazy behavior by the gaming companies before launching into essays about good parenting that is often the case in posts here.
And I don't think you have ever heard me using the "think of the children" argument when bashing P2W or loot boxes. I dislike their use in gaming because they cheapen my games. I don't need to go any further than that to want loot boxes and P2W mechanics the fuck out of my hobby.
They do obviously have the potential to disproportionately cause more harm to children and those adults that are more susceptible to the manipulations but even if that wasn't the case I would still hate this shit.
I really don't see much difference in our stances after what you have said, it was the term red herring that puzzled me. Of course the studios making these decisions don't get a pass because it takes two to tango as I often say.
Parental control can only go so far and the digital age is making it far harder for parents to keep an eye on their children. One parent I know told be most of his parenting time was watching his 8 year old when she was on the internet. How much longer is he going to be able to keep that up? And when she gets a mobile I would not want to be the parent remotely trying to do good parenting.
But I have also seen kids on You Tube who were far too young to be playing the games they were playing or to be on you tube in my eyes. This was on desktop PC's and screens like I use, I think their parents knew what was going on but ignored it.
So I think parental responsibility is always important but when it comes to a lot of what is on the internet and certainly the hidden nature of gambling in gaming they hardly stand a chance. We as players often don't realise how much we are paying and what the odds (assuming we even realise we are playing a gambling element!) are.
To me the children argument has helped swing governments to our side that is the most important aspect of it.
When it comes to choice, we are choosing to play and that is our responsibility. But just in case anyone out there has not noticed we are now playing in a casino, where the house rules of each game are determining just how screwed over we are. Some of those games are not even built yet and they have us paying for them. That casino playing field was set up by the studios and that is all on their shoulders.
So to us as players I say play wisely, that's a motto for life really, but the studios are the ones who need to get their house in order. Playing has become a by word for paying that is a travesty of gaming ethos.
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
I think most would agree there is a need for better regulations and controls put on game developers to protect all consumers.
"Think of the children" is largely a disingenuous ploy to get controls on something people don't like, as few marketing campaigns such as loot boxes are directed specifically at children and near as I can tell adults are still the greatest purchasers of them in most games.
Doesn't mean children don't partake of them, they shouldn't but some so, same with any other controlled vice or product, from gambling, to drugs, to firearm abuse to illegal street racing and all the laws in the world do not stop some from doing wrong.
So in the end parental control is one of the few tools we have to protect children from themselves, and even then, no matter how much we try, failures will happen.
I would reiterate my point that parents can only be as responsible as they are aware/familiar with a subject and potential issue.
This is a gaming forum with people who are gamers. The parents on this forum should generally be more savvy about the issues and how to handle them.
Is it fair to assume everyone who doesn't engage with digital gaming is going to as well?
Parental control requires parents to be educated on the topic(s) so they can make informed decisions. When they are more in the dark than their children and only learn of an issue when they check their bank statements, there's another problem to address than simply responsibility.
Public information and education of current practices, dangers, and suggested methods to protect your kids is all something that needs to proliferate across public media beyond the bubble of gaming-centric media and social groups.
<snip> Parental control can only go so far and the digital age is making it far harder for parents to keep an eye on their children. One parent I know told be most of his parenting time was watching his 8 year old when she was on the internet. How much longer is he going to be able to keep that up? And when she gets a mobile I would not want to be the parent remotely trying to do good parenting. <snip>
What strikes me is that everyone assumes that an 8 year old needs a mobile phone. The smart phone seems to be the primary avenue where exposure to games featuring gambling occurs (and other child harming activities). In this specific case, the parents are the primary culprit -- exactly why does a young child need to have access to a device that allows them to engage in behavior that their parents might object to?
Generally, kids can't get into significant trouble with a land line. That also addresses the distraction that a smart phone causes in an educational setting. Mobile devices are probably the most significant contributor to a larger societal lack of concentration/focus problem. Ping! You have mail! What kid (or adult) isn't going to immediately check their phone. I certainly don't want anyone in an operating room working on me to have outside distractions. But, that's what society is creating.
It seems to me that there's equal blame to go around.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
<snip> Parental control can only go so far and the digital age is making it far harder for parents to keep an eye on their children. One parent I know told be most of his parenting time was watching his 8 year old when she was on the internet. How much longer is he going to be able to keep that up? And when she gets a mobile I would not want to be the parent remotely trying to do good parenting. <snip>
What strikes me is that everyone assumes that an 8 year old needs a mobile phone. The smart phone seems to be the primary avenue where exposure to games featuring gambling occurs (and other child harming activities). In this specific case, the parents are the primary culprit -- exactly why does a young child need to have access to a device that allows them to engage in behavior that their parents might object to?
Generally, kids can't get into significant trouble with a land line. That also addresses the distraction that a smart phone causes in an educational setting. Mobile devices are probably the most significant contributor to a larger societal lack of concentration/focus problem. Ping! You have mail! What kid (or adult) isn't going to immediately check their phone. I certainly don't want anyone in an operating room working on me to have outside distractions. But, that's what society is creating.
It seems to me that there's equal blame to go around.
Even a parent who wants to do more can have his hands tied. When a school starts an online social group (I won't go into all the details) are you going to leave your child out of it when bullying has occurred because children were left out of it? I guess I would probably put up with that risk but I doubt all of those who are actual parents would, the guy I am thinking of got her a mobile.
As an aside some teachers have said recently that boys and to a lesser extent girls in school now regard reading as a punishment. Let me repeat that a punishment!
They say that devices given to children as toddlers mean books cannot compete. In my day we had the TV, but the TV could not replace books. A device is far more engaging for a child, books are "flat, two dimensional, black and white", they don't stand a chance.
This has led to toddlers losing interest in books which grows into seeing them as a punishment at school. But don't worry guys as we only are going to need them to be social media stars when they grow up, not hold jobs down or anything so its fine!
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
That's the thing even if you remove the entire targeting kids and parenting discussion you're still left with corporate sleaze and gambling in gaming. It doesn't matter how much someone is breaking their arm patting themselves on the back for being a decent parent. These companies are still putting in predatory monetization to any game they can inject it in.
"And I don't think you have ever heard me using the "think of the children" argument when bashing P2W or loot boxes. I dislike their use in gaming because they cheapen my games. I don't need to go any further than that to want loot boxes and P2W mechanics the fuck out of my hobby."
That sums it up. I don't want this in crap my hobby at all. They already have gambling sites where people can play poker or whatever.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Everyone involved other than the child is to blame. The parents, the developers, and the lack of any regulation preventing the targeting of children by predatory businesses.
You may blame a dog for eating a steak when left alone, but you still chose to leave the dog alone with a steak!
Regulations are not a substitution for parenting, but they are still worth having.
The degree of culpability is not even remotely the same when one party is using sophisticated. manipulative, sleazy techniques to extract money from the unsuspecting, and the parent's and regulator's culpability is simply in not being aware enough about the tricks to be able to effectively mitigate the danger.
The difference is so pronounced that even mentioning the culpability of those who did not mitigate wisely is just an irrelevant red herring.
If anyone in gaming is complicit, it's the gamer apologists who want to give the companies a partial or total pass in the name of unregulated free enterprise not those who got duped.
I don't see expecting parents and players to take responsibly for their own actions as a red herring, but clearly the studios are the ones who take the baulk of the blame and the onus for making changes is on them.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
Not only is it a red herring it is also a straw man argument because no one is saying that parents don't have a responsibility to supervise their children.
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
I think most would agree there is a need for better regulations and controls put on game developers to protect all consumers.
"Think of the children" is largely a disingenuous ploy to get controls on something people don't like, as few marketing campaigns such as loot boxes are directed specifically at children and near as I can tell adults are still the greatest purchasers of them in most games.
Doesn't mean children don't partake of them, they shouldn't but some so, same with any other controlled vice or product, from gambling, to drugs, to firearm abuse to illegal street racing and all the laws in the world do not stop some from doing wrong.
So in the end parental control is one of the few tools we have to protect children from themselves, and even then, no matter how much we try, failures will happen.
I would reiterate my point that parents can only be as responsible as they are aware/familiar with a subject and potential issue.
This is a gaming forum with people who are gamers. The parents on this forum should generally be more savvy about the issues and how to handle them.
Is it fair to assume everyone who doesn't engage with digital gaming is going to as well?
Parental control requires parents to be educated on the topic(s) so they can make informed decisions. When they are more in the dark than their children and only learn of an issue when they check their bank statements, there's another problem to address than simply responsibility.
Public information and education of current practices, dangers, and suggested methods to protect your kids is all something that needs to proliferate across public media beyond the bubble of gaming-centric media and social groups.
While I agree with you, I'm at a loss on how to bring about the education of parents , or lawmakers even on the "dangers" of the gaming universe.
All I can control is my side of the situation, educate myself, my friends and family and vote for candidates who may (rarely) let on the are gaming savvy.
Oh yeah, and vote with my wallet of course, but again that hasn't proven very effective to date in terms of keeping game designs I disagree with, otherwise most of this crap wouldn't exist today.
Ultimately I do believe it's the people who pay for these things who are mostly to blame, but many here would disagree.
It's OK though, I've long gotten used to most of the world being wrong.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This isn't a judgement on a parent but parents give phones to children because they may be a single parent with 2 jobs and the child is a latchkey kid. They would need to keep in touch and the child needs a phone too if anything happens to them on the way to and from school.
Not everyone has the luxury of well escorted children that are taken from home to school and back again. I am not saying that this is an excuse for the lack of supervision but we don't all live idyllic lives. When I was young and this was when I was 7 I would cycle to school and come home to an empty house.
All the examples seem to be talking about more affluent backgrounds is all.
To try and tie this back into the topic I wonder if there is any way to see stats on how much damage the predatory monetization has done to the MMORPG genre. I know I for one avoid this cash shop and loot box crap like the plague.
How much of the genre being in trouble could be linked to the monetization?
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Comments
The eventual outcome is not irrelevant to the discussion of predatory marketing practices. Such are only an issue when they lead to negative eventual outcomes.
Negative outcomes avoided are not problematic. As such, the capacity for avoidance and ways by which it can be done are just as much part of the issue as the source of them.
It's not disingenuous, but does extend the analysis of the issue to be more all encompassing which makes better results from such all the likely. Your reference to laissez-faire is just plain silly.
Of course loot boxes are so targeted. A solitary drunk monkey could conclude that. For the claimed affects on children I would have to see the research myself to determine how much is genuinely scientific and how much is science-coated bias for the purpose of pushing agenda. I'm open to possibility it is as valid as you seem to feel, but will not take assertion as evidence it is so.
Sorry, I have things to do other than post in your contrived time bracket of that not notable since the last post previous. I get to it when I get to it.
These days every molehill has to be a mountain, so marketing efforts to persuade are now predation.
With gambling being passed of as gaming and every scheme under the sun from skin economies to NFT's being brought in; it is not surprising parents and players have been slow to realise how problematic this is. In fact I would say most still do see this as a problem.
A lot of talk about children, these games have normalised one bad practise after another, from the cash shop to early access the customer ends up paying more and often for less. I say for less as many forms of revenue have denigrated all sorts of MMORPG gameplay, from crafting not being able to achieve what you can buy in the shop to gameplay being skipped by paying.
So far we have NO examples examples in this microcosm of out of control addictive child spending.
I wonder if it's because we have alot of good parenting or as is in many of these social outcry issues the voices are louder than the problem .
It is also worth noting that if the game is marked adult (which many are and the EULA states responsibility), the parent is directly to blame from the get go.For permitting the child access to content it should not have , and/or not checking what there child is accessing on there devices . In addition it is very easy to set up blocks/filters on all these devices as safeguards for yourself and child . Normal stuff a caring parent should be doing in this environment.
But I digress , bbl , I have to take my 11 year old to his BB championship at the Y today , then to Lowes for grasseed and hay , after his chores , I generally put his allowance in a box in my office , sometimes he asked for some to buy Sports cards etc , most he asks to put into his bank account. Smart kid or good parenting ... I wonder again.
Have a great day
When the subject is manipulative techniques used by gaming studios bringing up parental responsibility is irrelevant to that discussion. It is a different discussion that speaks to mitigation strategies but says nothing and counters nothing about the calculated gaming coorp sleaze that is long past needing regulations.
Some here are always so quick to trot out parental responsibility as soon as corporate misbehavior is brought up that it appears as if those people's fragile world view is dependent on believing that corporations are always well-behaved and have no responsibility in modern society other than to maximize profits through any means no matter how sleazy that might be.
Parental responsibility is a fucking ridiculous thing to bring up when the subject is corporate sleaze.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All of which is totally irrelevant to the subject of exploitative and sleazy gaming monetization just like all of your self-congratulatory dribble about parenting is.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Let's discuss this further as was pointed out by our friend Slap several posts back .
His children have also not been caught up in any of the world's terrible activities (drugs/alcohol/ sex trafficking etc.) Thank God
Now , why is that did the parent take the initiative to protect there child from these nefarious activities in the world , did the parent counsel advice and look after there child relative to all the world's terrible issues..
The parent made the effort and took the time to Protect there child , relative to all these things, knowing the Goverment and Corp already have guardrails and laws in place .
The Parent is the 1st defense against all these horrible things .
The Parent is the first Defense against online predatory. ANYTHING.
The Parent does not Trust Government and Corps to protect there child in any of these other terrible activities.
Why is the subject any different , why would any caring parent expect different and not protect there child (and themselves) from these Real world bad actors and activities in the same manner.
Personally , I would not trust any of these entities to protect me or my child , to do so is foolish at best.
There are ample guardrails in place now to do such . Blaming Corp/ Government is weak in this regard ..
Child should not be playing Adult or Teen + games.
Parent should be reading EULA ..
Parent should be setting Blocks and Filters on all devices ..
Parent should NEVER set up a child with an app that purchases can be made without autorization. Etc..
There are more tools at a Parents disposal.
Really common sense things .
But most of all , I do not think any sane parent is Trusting and hoping Corp and government will protect there child and the parent from themselves , Relative to any of these real world issues in this environment, Why would anyone treat and expect anything else from online purchases .
Is anyone really going to trust the Goverment and Corps to add a couple regulations , and then Say " OK Bobby log on have fun " Without applying good parenting after that ..of course not , same as you do not drop your kid off in Kensington. And say or assume its OK police have lots of Laws and regulations in place and say " have fun. Pick ya up later ."
Warm ups over. Game is about to start .
Talk to yas later and have a great day.
I just wish my companies would stop be so greedy for more money. really in my option if you make a really good mmorpgs that suits most players needs/wants in a mmorpgs & make it a pay to own without fees or a small like 5-10 dollars monthly fee that covers everything & have sponsters to support your game you can still make boatloads of money & everyone will be happy even the players too but that's my point of veiw if it makes any senses. also stop being cookie cutter & be creative & make it your own type of mmorpg you might be surprise i think more people are looking for a new fresh different type of mmorpg instead of same old BS but i could be wrong but you never know...
Because that is what your posts continue to demonstrate.
We don’t dispute that great parenting has positive impacts on kids lives. So we can skip the Dad of the year routine.
So: Do you agree that companies should not target and exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Parent is/was and will always be the best and first line of Defense /end
The parent actually has the tools and abilities to prevent any of this from happening at there fingertips .
Goverment/Corp can never will never or have the want and desire to protect your child better than you . Keep in mind some of thecsame entities you want to do more to protect your child are the same entities making money off the systems.
You keep making arguments to points nobody else is presenting.
So in light of that I believe you are confirming that you are OK allowing companies to target an exploit children with addictive gambling mechanics.
Noted.
I guess they should be able to market and sell alcohol and cigarettes to kids too since a "parent is/was and will always be the best and first line of Defense/end"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"Think of the children" is largely a disingenuous ploy to get controls on something people don't like, as few marketing campaigns such as loot boxes are directed specifically at children and near as I can tell adults are still the greatest purchasers of them in most games.
Doesn't mean children don't partake of them, they shouldn't but some so, same with any other controlled vice or product, from gambling, to drugs, to firearm abuse to illegal street racing and all the laws in the world do not stop some from doing wrong.
So in the end parental control is one of the few tools we have to protect children from themselves, and even then, no matter how much we try, failures will happen.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And obviously, none of them are 100% effective (very much including parenting} or foolproof as evidenced by children drinking and doing drugs, getting a hold of firearms, etc.
The thing that I find annoying. and perhaps they're just verbal shortcuts, is the lack of acknowledgment of the sleazy behavior by the gaming companies before launching into essays about good parenting that is often the case in posts here.
And I don't think you have ever heard me using the "think of the children" argument when bashing P2W or loot boxes. I dislike their use in gaming because they cheapen my games. I don't need to go any further than that to want loot boxes and P2W mechanics the fuck out of my hobby.
They do obviously have the potential to disproportionately cause more harm to children and those adults that are more susceptible to the manipulations but even if that wasn't the case I would still hate this shit.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Parental control can only go so far and the digital age is making it far harder for parents to keep an eye on their children. One parent I know told be most of his parenting time was watching his 8 year old when she was on the internet. How much longer is he going to be able to keep that up? And when she gets a mobile I would not want to be the parent remotely trying to do good parenting.
But I have also seen kids on You Tube who were far too young to be playing the games they were playing or to be on you tube in my eyes. This was on desktop PC's and screens like I use, I think their parents knew what was going on but ignored it.
So I think parental responsibility is always important but when it comes to a lot of what is on the internet and certainly the hidden nature of gambling in gaming they hardly stand a chance. We as players often don't realise how much we are paying and what the odds (assuming we even realise we are playing a gambling element!) are.
To me the children argument has helped swing governments to our side that is the most important aspect of it.
When it comes to choice, we are choosing to play and that is our responsibility. But just in case anyone out there has not noticed we are now playing in a casino, where the house rules of each game are determining just how screwed over we are. Some of those games are not even built yet and they have us paying for them. That casino playing field was set up by the studios and that is all on their shoulders.
So to us as players I say play wisely, that's a motto for life really, but the studios are the ones who need to get their house in order. Playing has become a by word for paying that is a travesty of gaming ethos.
This is a gaming forum with people who are gamers. The parents on this forum should generally be more savvy about the issues and how to handle them.
Is it fair to assume everyone who doesn't engage with digital gaming is going to as well?
Parental control requires parents to be educated on the topic(s) so they can make informed decisions. When they are more in the dark than their children and only learn of an issue when they check their bank statements, there's another problem to address than simply responsibility.
Public information and education of current practices, dangers, and suggested methods to protect your kids is all something that needs to proliferate across public media beyond the bubble of gaming-centric media and social groups.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
As an aside some teachers have said recently that boys and to a lesser extent girls in school now regard reading as a punishment. Let me repeat that a punishment!
They say that devices given to children as toddlers mean books cannot compete. In my day we had the TV, but the TV could not replace books. A device is far more engaging for a child, books are "flat, two dimensional, black and white", they don't stand a chance.
This has led to toddlers losing interest in books which grows into seeing them as a punishment at school. But don't worry guys as we only are going to need them to be social media stars when they grow up, not hold jobs down or anything so its fine!
"And I don't think you have ever heard me using the "think of the children" argument when bashing P2W or loot boxes. I dislike their use in gaming because they cheapen my games. I don't need to go any further than that to want loot boxes and P2W mechanics the fuck out of my hobby."
That sums it up. I don't want this in crap my hobby at all. They already have gambling sites where people can play poker or whatever.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/All I can control is my side of the situation, educate myself, my friends and family and vote for candidates who may (rarely) let on the are gaming savvy.
Oh yeah, and vote with my wallet of course, but again that hasn't proven very effective to date in terms of keeping game designs I disagree with, otherwise most of this crap wouldn't exist today.
Ultimately I do believe it's the people who pay for these things who are mostly to blame, but many here would disagree.
It's OK though, I've long gotten used to most of the world being wrong.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not everyone has the luxury of well escorted children that are taken from home to school and back again. I am not saying that this is an excuse for the lack of supervision but we don't all live idyllic lives. When I was young and this was when I was 7 I would cycle to school and come home to an empty house.
All the examples seem to be talking about more affluent backgrounds is all.
How much of the genre being in trouble could be linked to the monetization?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/