and that was the point back then....The longer things take, the longer players will sub..... IT was a big reason why alot of people dont like guys like Smedley....While EQ was enjoyable, it was also designed to drain as much money from the players as possible... There was about a two year span where they made like 5 expansions.....Every time we turned around they wanted another $30 for an expansion, in addition to our monthly subs......SOEs greediness was a major turnoff for alot of us.
I counter both of those points.
Just looking at modern day monetization makes EQ of old look like a total steal of a deal, box sub and expansions, no cash shop, no battle pass, no loot boxes, no krono farmers, etc etc. Saying EQ tried to drain as much money as possible is just laughably false.
As far as the time commitment I played MUDs that were free that required a larger time commitment just because that's how the game was designed. They were keeping people playing on the grind with zero monetization involved so saying the grind in EQ was a deliberate way of making money could just as easily be countered with saying it took longer to do it in some MUDs for free.
Some MUDs literally took people years. Like Dragonrealms. Some had over 200 levels and remorts. Some just had soft caps.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
What I'm seeing today, versus "old school" is that almost everything has changed. There is no comparing the two eras anymore.
1) The first MMORPGs were created by small development teams who were trying out ideas, not mega-corps looking for the most money to me made. This is NOT saying that early developers did not wish to make money, but rather many times "the money" was a bonus not a reason for their games.
2) Remember when these teams had an actual Quality Assurance (QA) department? Even the big companies kept them around, until they discovered that they could CHARGE players to be their QA and game testers. Alpha/Beta testing anyone?
3) These mega-corps now look to "games as a service" models for ALL of their games, including single player games. Why? Monthly money.
4) The internet has made it possible to "easily fix" their programming errors. There no longer is an incentive to make a good, error free, and complete game. Look at that 25+million copies sold that Brainy pointed out. With that of sales numbers, companies decide push out their games in whatever state they can (thanks to Cyberpunk 2077 and No Man's Sky, among others). I'm not trying to say the old MMORPGs released in a perfect, "working as intended" state
5) Players seek different reasons to pick up and play games. Focusing on which players a game wants attract is something companies don't seem to look at too closely these days. I will never play a battle royal, puzzles only game, first/third person shooter, or MOBA.Yet, many players are "gamers" and will buy up nearly every game that releases. I wonder what those games' "retention" or even "completion" numbers are like. There should be games that draw upon the players that want them.
6) Customer Service is an after thought, if thought abut at all. Do any of you still any "full service gasoline stations" near you? All near me are "self serve." No longer does an attendant come out to ask what grade of gasoline you want and how much. After putting the nozzle in, they may even check your oil and radiator fluid and top them off (for a fee, of course), and clean your windows. Imagine that! Bigger grocery companies (Wal-Mart and the like) have done away with "baggers" that bag your food and even carry is out to your car. It's cheaper to not have those services. It is the way business is done today.
6b) Old MMORPGs used to have "GMs" that were in game and could help players IN GAME with troubles that arose. Sometimes these GMs would even run in game "special events", like Emperor Crush running around Greater Faydark with his minions in tow that players had fun trying to take down. All MMOs want today is your money. In whatever way they can. "Customer Service" is no longer a thing.
At the end of Ready Player One, Halliday says to Parcival, "Thanks for playing my game." Too many developers don't care anymore about "fun."
Many old MMORPG players sought (and found) a "home" in these games. They made friends. They may have built houses. Maybe they joined Guilds. They laid down "roots." These MMORPGs became "comfortable" (which be a bad thing, too). New MMOs just don't have "that feeling of a home" anymore. But, again, maybe this is just me
Sorry for my lengthy thought process here. I still don't feel like I conveyed my thoughts well at all
PS: Brainy, I think you confused my "150K players" with "copies sold", though they are quite similar. I was talking about the "retention" of those players instead of selling new versions of the games. Those 150K players (paying a sub) would garner [150,000*15=2.5M each month]. It certainly not "a lot", but more than doable. This could be for every 150K block of players
[edit]
My math formula was mixed up
Post edited by AlBQuirky on
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I posted earlier that it was stagnant but I think I can also identify why and go deeper into how to make it better again.
Just reading about old school post got me thinking.
The current genre has been corrupted by greed and trash. Much like stagnant water. It's full of garbage and not fit for consumption. They only innovated in how they could take money from players. In a lot of cases these big companies abandoned the MMORPG genre altogether in favor of chasing easy, more lucrative, more predatory, money in mobile games.
Even the older games that used to be box, sub, expansion all now have cash shops and loot boxes or some form of it and game tokens like kronos where they once used to ban players for selling items and gold they now sell it themselves.
The only way I get back to that pure tropical island old school experience is with private servers and emulators. Like City of Heroes Homecoming, Project 1999 and WoW Classic severs like Nefarious when that was a thing.
From my perspective this is what they have done to the genre and I couldn't sum it up better than with the contrast provided by these pictures.
I encourage you to try the emulators of the old games. Like:
Ultima Online free shards City of Heroes Homecoming Star Wars Galaxies emulators like Restoration Project 1999 for EverQuest Magicbane for Shadowbane
They might not have all of them and they might get shut down but the experience is night and day compared to the modern swamp. They also expose just how little it takes to keep these games running and most are either self funded or run on donations and cost next to nothing.
Post edited by Nilden on
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Everyone knows what the issues are but that does not mean any AAA developers is interested in making the dream game we seem to be pining for. I don't see anything worth rooting for, do you?
First I dont believe developers have identified the problem.
The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is a problem. We are still waiting for the industry to get there head around that.
Entertainment executives are notoriously moronic. Look at movies, LOTR Peter Jackson got denied by multiple studios that told him him his concept would fail and nobody would fund it. Finally to get funding he had to shoot all 3 movies at the same time on 1 movies budget. The movies were wildly successful and yet what other production companies came out with similar movies using a different IP in the past 20 years?
When James Cameron made Avatar 1, the 20th century fox executives told him his 3 hour movie wouldnt sell, and demanded he change it. He told them to get the blank out of his office. Surprise surprise top selling movie all time.
You think these entertainment exectives from gaming are any different? These studios are playing darts in the dark from 100 yards away. They are completely clueless what drives customers retention.
I think developers have identified plenty of problems and come up with solutions to what they have identified. I don't think the identification of problems is the problem. I think the solutions to the problems are. Also, I don't think players are always right on what the solution should be either. Think about all of the discussions on various identified problems. There isn't a consensus solution. 30 people comment with 30 different solutions.
Well I would just point out, its not the job of the customers to solve a games problem. While many customers dont know what they want, some customers actually do know.
Do we have professions in the gaming industry or not. The entire problem is resting on industry "professionals" that dont have a clue what the customer wants.
Before making a game, they really should have a product that customers want to play. Its the studio's job to be experts in their field and find a way to make a product customers really want.
What is really happening is that studio's are making products that DEVS want. Which usually turns out to be a simplistic substandard money grabbing POS game.
Well I would just point out, its not the job of the customers to solve a games problem. While many customers dont know what they want, some customers actually do know.
Do we have professions in the gaming industry or not. The entire problem is resting on industry "professionals" that dont have a clue what the customer wants.
Before making a game, they really should have a product that customers want to play. Its the studio's job to be experts in their field and find a way to make a product customers really want.
What is really happening is that studio's are making products that DEVS want. Which usually turns out to be a simplistic substandard money grabbing POS game.
Whilst I agree with you that it is the studio's responsibility to understand and fix the problems, I have to disagree with your last paragraph.
In my albeit limited experience working in the games industry, the actual production team has very little to do with the design of the finished product. The devs aren't making the games they want, they are making the games they are told to make.
The reality seems to be that it is a very small number of people, maybe 1-5 people, who actually design the game. Everybody else is just a worker. The only other people who get a say are the publishers. That small team of designers will have to pitch their idea to the money men at some point, and if your game won't get funded without XY features, then you have to add XY features.
This is why designing MMORPGs is so challenging.
If you are making a more focused game, say an FPS, then there is a good chance that your small design team has expertise in everything they need.
But if you are designing an MMORPG, especially with a wide array of activities, then there is little chance your design team knows what they are doing. Your creative lead may be great at writing a story and designing the world, but it's unlikely he will also know how to design a great combat system, or know how to create a good virtual economy.
The breadth of knowledge required to design each aspect of an MMORPG well AND make it all interconnect properly is simply too much for a small team. But, if you increase your design team then you end up designing a game via committee, and that never ends well either.
Even if you design a great game, there is always the chance that the publishers won't understand your design, and therefore wont fund it.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
In my albeit limited experience working in the games industry, the actual production team has very little to do with the design of the finished product. The devs aren't making the games they want, they are making the games they are told to make.
The reality seems to be that it is a very small number of people, maybe 1-5 people, who actually design the game. Everybody else is just a worker. The only other people who get a say are the publishers. That small team of designers will have to pitch their idea to the money men at some point, and if your game won't get funded without XY features, then you have to add XY features.
Nah I dont agree at all with this. I have seen way to many times with small and medium companies that a specific dev in charge of a system will have a massive amount of design creative freedom over the system. Additionally the lead dev has an massive amount of say in the process. This goes all the way back.
I even remember when Raph lead dev of UO said he single handedly was holding back trammel because he thought that solution was too much and wanted continue small incremental patches to solve griefing and bad actors in UO. Only after he left did an executive finally make a decison.
I have seen in beta where lead devs and individual devs have said they had freedom over the design. Additionally the devs are on the creative boards where they discuss these ideas.
Maybe you are talking some big picture concepts they might not have total control of, but usually the problem is in the details not the concepts.
Even now if you named off 20 concepts I would have no clue if a game would be good or bad until you get to the details.
So devs are making most of these decisions not executives. Just so we are clear, I am not talking junior devs, but middle to senior devs on the project.
Everyone knows what the issues are but that does not mean any AAA developers is interested in making the dream game we seem to be pining for. I don't see anything worth rooting for, do you?
First I dont believe developers have identified the problem.
The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is a problem. We are still waiting for the industry to get there head around that.
Entertainment executives are notoriously moronic. Look at movies, LOTR Peter Jackson got denied by multiple studios that told him him his concept would fail and nobody would fund it. Finally to get funding he had to shoot all 3 movies at the same time on 1 movies budget. The movies were wildly successful and yet what other production companies came out with similar movies using a different IP in the past 20 years?
When James Cameron made Avatar 1, the 20th century fox executives told him his 3 hour movie wouldnt sell, and demanded he change it. He told them to get the blank out of his office. Surprise surprise top selling movie all time.
You think these entertainment exectives from gaming are any different? These studios are playing darts in the dark from 100 yards away. They are completely clueless what drives customers retention.
I think developers have identified plenty of problems and come up with solutions to what they have identified. I don't think the identification of problems is the problem. I think the solutions to the problems are. Also, I don't think players are always right on what the solution should be either. Think about all of the discussions on various identified problems. There isn't a consensus solution. 30 people comment with 30 different solutions.
Well I would just point out, its not the job of the customers to solve a games problem. While many customers dont know what they want, some customers actually do know.
Do we have professions in the gaming industry or not. The entire problem is resting on industry "professionals" that dont have a clue what the customer wants.
Before making a game, they really should have a product that customers want to play. Its the studio's job to be experts in their field and find a way to make a product customers really want.
What is really happening is that studio's are making products that DEVS want. Which usually turns out to be a simplistic substandard money grabbing POS game.
You stated, "The entire problem is resting on industry "professionals" that don't have a clue what the customer wants."<---For 2 decades game studios, developers and marketers listened to their player base. We got everything we asked for. Turned out, it was all mostly bad. The player base at the end of the day, just likes their old school games. Stop trying to make vegetables taste better and just appreciate your vegetables. Most people want to cheat the system and not play the game. Half your player base just plays cause everyone else does. They want easy mode because they do not want to play. That is who gets gross marketed to. We are the niche. The ones who get left behind and ignored. We love playing our games and are so good at it, we grief the people who don't play well and who get mass marketed to. Stick to indie games at this point. It's all we can really do.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
You stated, "The entire problem is resting on industry "professionals" that don't have a clue what the customer wants."<---For 2 decades game studios, developers and marketers listened to their player base. We got everything we asked for. Turned out, it was all mostly bad. The player base at the end of the day, just likes their old school games. Stop trying to make vegetables taste better and just appreciate your vegetables. Most people want to cheat the system and not play the game. Half your player base just plays cause everyone else does. They want easy mode because they do not want to play. That is who gets gross marketed to. We are the niche. The ones who get left behind and ignored. We love playing our games and are so good at it, we grief the people who don't play well and who get mass marketed to. Stick to indie games at this point. It's all we can really do.
The industry executives are supposed to be professionals. They are supposed to know what the customer wants. Who cares if some lamer says they like something. You can find someone that says they will want anything. Its the professionals job to know where their market base is on the various systems.
You act as if over the last 8 years these MMO's have been wildly successful. Ummm open your eyes, the MMO market is swirling down the drain. People like you keep saying this is what the players asked for, yet people voted with their wallet and have shown in feedback they dont like the current MMO's.
There is a difference from EZ mode and QOL. Some people cannot grasp the difference.
You stated, "The entire problem is resting on industry "professionals" that don't have a clue what the customer wants."<---For 2 decades game studios, developers and marketers listened to their player base. We got everything we asked for. Turned out, it was all mostly bad. The player base at the end of the day, just likes their old school games. Stop trying to make vegetables taste better and just appreciate your vegetables. Most people want to cheat the system and not play the game. Half your player base just plays cause everyone else does. They want easy mode because they do not want to play. That is who gets gross marketed to. We are the niche. The ones who get left behind and ignored. We love playing our games and are so good at it, we grief the people who don't play well and who get mass marketed to. Stick to indie games at this point. It's all we can really do.
The industry executives are supposed to be professionals. They are supposed to know what the customer wants. Who cares if some lamer says they like something. You can find someone that says they will want anything. Its the professionals job to know where their market base is on the various systems.
You act as if over the last 8 years these MMO's have been wildly successful. Ummm open your eyes, the MMO market is swirling down the drain. People like you keep saying this is what the players asked for, yet people voted with their wallet and have shown in feedback they dont like the current MMO's.
There is a difference from EZ mode and QOL. Some people cannot grasp the difference.
You stated, "The industry executives are supposed to be professionals. They are supposed to know what the customer wants."<----those executives are mining cryptocurrency and investing it into the stock market to make dividends and not raising wages and laying people off. That was cute though stating their supposed to be professionals.
You stated, "Who cares if some lamer says they like something."<----the lamer makes the most money. The real time casual rage quitter makes the most money. He's not a loyal or competitive gamer. He will try anything and has money to spend to impress his friends. He also plays games and streams them to social media to make money. This audience has the most voice.
You stated, "You act as if over the last 8 years these MMO's have been wildly successful."<----I did not mean in any way to give you this impression. MMO's are being manipulated to be popular anyway. WoW is still relevant because it caters to bad gamers who don't really like to play games. Nothing can defeat WoW other than itself.
You stated, " People like you keep saying this is what the players asked for, yet people voted with their wallet and have shown in feedback they don't like the current MMO's."<----I stated players asked Devs to change mechanics and customize the game experience to what the communities agreed upon. After the community got what they wanted, the community wanted the games to back to normal and then try to rebalance just the classes. This rebalancing just never worked, and they just slowly lost interest and left. We both agreed here. I never disagreed. This is classic communism looks better on paper than in real life anyway.
You stated, "There is a difference from EZ mode and QOL. Some people cannot grasp the difference."<----yes, they can. you're implying that the game athletes do not have EZ mode, and they have no quality of life. They have the highest quality of life and those stoners who hate playing games but are the money-making audience has the lowest level QOL.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
I'm not sure what you dislike in modern MMORPGs, as they seem made for you.
I dislike current MMO's because they are on EZ mode. Mechanics have been dumbed down. Games like ESO have changed the game where everywhere has the same difficulty so you cant even go to harder areas to farm because its all dumbed down to your level.
WoW retail has made the entire game super simple outside of mythic dungeons.
So yeah I am sick of games being a breeze for some newb. I like content that is difficult and encourages people to group together. I think a game needs some solo areas for people during downtime but those areas need to increase in difficulty as well, so that better players always have a challenge. Newbs can group up to beat those areas if they want.
I want full magic with teleports, summons and other convenience like that so grouping is quick and you dont have to waste time on a running simulator, my time is valuable and I dont want to waste it running around places I have already been. I want plenty of inventory like UO so again I dont have to waste my time with inventory management disguised as game content.
You stated, "Who cares if some lamer says they like something."<----the lamer makes the most money. The real time casual rage quitter makes the most money. He's not a loyal or competitive gamer. He will try anything and has money to spend to impress his friends. He also plays games and streams them to social media to make money. This audience has the most voice.
This is actually not true. Players like competitive games. In the past they were seeing WoW as such, and that is why it was so profitable. Nobody will spend thousands for gear or levels in a solo game, where other players simply may not care. Although I never played WoW by myself, I have a friend who hired another person to play WoW while he works, just to stay completive, and that was not some unique case back then.
You assume there are some bad, lame noobs, who just spend money for nothing. Obviously there are not such. Players should be motivated to spend money and competition is the strongest possible motivation.
Even in games like BDO, big spenders are people who believe there is competition in the game, although there is not really. And this is one of the reasons MMORPGs decline as genre. You cannot make competitive game for solo players. There is obvious conflict. After WoW they focused so much on the solo players, that they lost their competitive aura, First was WoW. But you have NW as recent example. A game that literally started as survival PvP arena and turned into bad copy of WoW.
You can check stream statistics. Competition creates tension, and that rises the chances for good story. None of the most streamed games is MMORPG. Except Just Chatting which is VR simulator, but not a game, most streamed games are competitive. The only real exception is Minecraft.
I don't think it's that. It's no one want to be the sheep in a FFAPVP game. Even the typical wolf goes hiding when they have chance on dying.
I don't know how Albion did it. Maybe it stopped rampart ganking somehow. I don't play it so I don't know.
The most competitive pvp is games like arena or MOBA type of setting. Or at least RealmvRealm where there are probably more fans in that genre. That being said warhammer online is a failure so I can't really say people want RealmvRealm.
You need to stop FFAPvP to be about high level running around ganking newbies.
You stated, "Who cares if some lamer says they like something."<----the lamer makes the most money. The real time casual rage quitter makes the most money. He's not a loyal or competitive gamer. He will try anything and has money to spend to impress his friends. He also plays games and streams them to social media to make money. This audience has the most voice.
This is actually not true. Players like competitive games. In the past they were seeing WoW as such, and that is why it was so profitable. Nobody will spend thousands for gear or levels in a solo game, where other players simply may not care. Although I never played WoW by myself, I have a friend who hired another person to play WoW while he works, just to stay completive, and that was not some unique case back then.
You assume there are some bad, lame noobs, who just spend money for nothing. Obviously there are not such. Players should be motivated to spend money and competition is the strongest possible motivation.
Even in games like BDO, big spenders are people who believe there is competition in the game, although there is not really. And this is one of the reasons MMORPGs decline as genre. You cannot make competitive game for solo players. There is obvious conflict. After WoW they focused so much on the solo players, that they lost their competitive aura, First was WoW. But you have NW as recent example. A game that literally started as survival PvP arena and turned into bad copy of WoW.
You can check stream statistics. Competition creates tension, and that rises the chances for good story. None of the most streamed games is MMORPG. Except Just Chatting which is VR simulator, but not a game, most streamed games are competitive. The only real exception is Minecraft.
You stated, "This is actually not true. Players like competitive games. In the past they were seeing WoW as such, and that is why it was so profitable. Nobody will spend thousands for gear or levels in a solo game, where other players simply may not care. Although I never played WoW by myself, I have a friend who hired another person to play WoW while he works, just to stay completive, and that was not some unique case back then."<----After DAOC and EQ class imbalances infuriated the player base, so world of warcraft approached this problem very easily. At launch, every character in the game was the exact same copy of each other with different weapons. The player base doesn't know that and that was one reason it became so popular. This put an even playing field to PvP and the people who couldn't really PvP could actually win. There was no way to get the upper hand. You couldn't outsmart each other. The only way to cheat was to hack or mod and even that was policed in the beginning. World of warcraft built an empire on the illusion of competition and everyone fell for it.
You stated, "most streamed games are competitive"<----I have to disagree. You're under the illusion you are competing when it's just dumb luck that wins the fight. You're in an arena that isn't interactive with the same stats and the same weapons. It's basically who pulls the trigger first that wins.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
I can tell you one thing for sure. I'll never give money to another kickstarter/crowd funded MMORPG. They have all been massive fails. Either straight up scams, development hell with never-ending pre-alphas, and showing concept art after around a decade.
The ones that did launch like Crowfall and Shroud of the Avatar were just laughably bad. Heck this site couldn't even give away betas keys to Crowfall.
In fact I am so jaded by the utter lack of talent and missed delivery dates by years, along with the lies just to get money, that I won't even buy something new on release (if they even do release lol) I'll wait a month watch a bunch of gameplay and some reviews.
I'm sure some company with talent and money will release an actual MMORPG in the future but it's been a barren wasteland since Final Fantasy 14 and Elder Scrolls online back in what 2013 2014? New World was the only other noteworthy release in my book and it wasn't anything I would bother to write home about.
The doom and gloom people are right. The genre is in a sad state and the only stuff I play is really old.
The thing is all it would take is one amazing game to get millions of people back into this genre. However that means MMORPG devs are going to need to step up their game both literally and figuratively. No more hollow, broken promises and lies. Walk the walk not just talk the talk.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I don't think it's that. It's no one want to be the sheep in a FFAPVP game. Even the typical wolf goes hiding when they have chance on dying.
I don't know how Albion did it. Maybe it stopped rampart ganking somehow. I don't play it so I don't know.
The most competitive pvp is games like arena or MOBA type of setting. Or at least RealmvRealm where there are probably more fans in that genre. That being said warhammer online is a failure so I can't really say people want RealmvRealm.
You need to stop FFAPvP to be about high level running around ganking newbies.
You stated, "This is actually not true. Players like competitive games. In the past they were seeing WoW as such, and that is why it was so profitable. Nobody will spend thousands for gear or levels in a solo game, where other players simply may not care. Although I never played WoW by myself, I have a friend who hired another person to play WoW while he works, just to stay completive, and that was not some unique case back then."<----After DAOC and EQ class imbalances infuriated the player base, so world of warcraft approached this problem very easily. At launch, every character in the game was the exact same copy of each other with different weapons. The player base doesn't know that and that was one reason it became so popular. This put an even playing field to PvP and the people who couldn't really PvP could actually win. There was no way to get the upper hand. You couldn't outsmart each other. The only way to cheat was to hack or mod and even that was policed in the beginning. World of warcraft built an empire on the illusion of competition and everyone fell for it.
You stated, "most streamed games are competitive"<----I have to disagree. You're under the illusion you are competing when it's just dumb luck that wins the fight. You're in an arena that isn't interactive with the same stats and the same weapons. It's basically who pulls the trigger first that wins.
Both of you make a mistake here. Competition does not mean fair play, or even well made game - there is competition if players believe there is such. WoW never really was a competitive game. Also ganking keeps going in Albion. Actually this is the best part of the game. The issue with Albion is to make ganking works they nerfed everything else. If you go in Albion and try to play it as regular solo focused MMORPG, you are wasting your time with terrible game. If you PvP - Albion is insanely fun. Still in a long term players need the solo progression and RPG to have meaningful game, as much as they need competition and cooperation for meaningful MMO.
What I mean is many people like ganking. But pretty much almost no one like getting ganked. Even the people that enjoy ganking usually hide when they have chance of dying.
And what competition is there when people only fight when they have the advantage?
Many people do enjoy FFAPvP games because they like ganking other.
I have nothing against FFAPvP, I'm pretty sure there are people enjoying it, for example you.
What I mean is many people like ganking. But pretty much almost no one like getting ganked. Even the people that enjoy ganking usually hide when they have chance of dying.
And what competition is there when people only fight when they have the advantage?
Many people do enjoy FFAPvP games because they like ganking other.
I have nothing against FFAPvP, I'm pretty sure there are people enjoying it, for example you.
Yes this is exactly why PVP in MMO's dont seem to work well.
When you have a system where 1% of the people are winning 99.9% of the time, that leaves alot of losers. The people losing 70%+ of the time are just going to leave. This creates an even worse problem because people in the mid tier have nobody to kill, so they become the targets, then they leave and soon all you have is the 1% and a dead world.
This puts the MMO always trying to find ways to bring more easy targets into the game. Its a constant cycle of loss of players.
PVP systems work when it pits the 1% against others in or near their own bracket. Not sure exactly the numbers but I have seen PVP games work if people have at least around a 30%-40%+ win rate. I think World of Tanks and World of Warships works like this.
And what competition is there when people only fight when they have the advantage?
Many people do enjoy FFAPvP games because they like ganking other.
I have nothing against FFAPvP, I'm pretty sure there are people enjoying it, for example you.
I hate FFA. I hate Asian mmo's. There grindy. I do not want to spend 5 years trying to level. Just wtf at Asia. They go too far forcing you to work too hard to get to end game.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
Just wanted to point out since I watched this video and thought about this thread that live service games are dying by the dozen. So it's not just the MMO genre that is doing poorly it's crap games and monetization models all around that are tanking. Heck look at crypto, blockchain and NFT's they died horribly as well.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Just wanted to point out since I watched this video and thought about this thread that live service games are dying by the dozen. So it's not just the MMO genre that is doing poorly it's crap games and monetization models all around that are tanking. Heck look at crypto, blockchain and NFT's they died horribly as well.
I think that video has alot of good info, where I dont agree, is him making a point that live service is the only option for multiplayer games. There are plenty of multiplayer games where players can have there own servers and play with others.
Also this notion of saturation for live service but not single player due to the number of hours. There are so many single player games where people can put 1k hours in ez. 12-100 hour estimate he is talking about is for subpar games usually.
The problem is just the games coming out now are not very good, therefore they cant standout from older games. For example I just read that the old game dwarf fortress put the game on steam and has made a bunch of money just recently. This is a 16 year old game that is raking in cash over new games being released.
Just wanted to point out since I watched this video and thought about this thread that live service games are dying by the dozen. So it's not just the MMO genre that is doing poorly it's crap games and monetization models all around that are tanking. Heck look at crypto, blockchain and NFT's they died horribly as well.
I watch his videos a lot as he constantly bears down on every gaming company. He does tend to read the press releases but I still enjoy his analysis.
What I mean is many people like ganking. But pretty much almost no one like getting ganked. Even the people that enjoy ganking usually hide when they have chance of dying.
And what competition is there when people only fight when they have the advantage?
Many people do enjoy FFAPvP games because they like ganking other.
I have nothing against FFAPvP, I'm pretty sure there are people enjoying it, for example you.
To reduce the risk is completely rational and reasonable approach. Many people even play solo in MMOs for that reason. I think hiding and ganking is better approach - at least you play multiplayer game.
Anyway it seems you do not know how Albion works. There are solo gankers or small group gankers - usually good players, or players with crap gear, who gamble with low risk. Most ganking is organized by guilds - they go in certain areas, and start to attack every player or group who is not ally. There is a lot of tactics and strategy involved. At the same time there are strategies how to escape, even when you play solo. Usually the gank raid finishes when other guild or guilds attack the area, as their players were ganked. So in most cases gankers are killed by other gankers. Then guild leader usually sells the loot, or put part of it in guild stocks for wars.
It is well made and really entertaining gameplay focused on ganking.
The issue is the solo RPG content. They add more in recent updates, but the problem is quality, not quantity. RPG is extremely nerfed, and solo RPG is completely safe and pointless. There are two rule setts in the game - full loot, fun, intense, high risk with high rewards MMO, and completely safe, no risk, small rewards, boring solo RPG grind.
That sounds like bad players making a terrible time for people until other people have to come in and fix it.
What I mean is many people like ganking. But pretty much almost no one like getting ganked. Even the people that enjoy ganking usually hide when they have chance of dying.
And what competition is there when people only fight when they have the advantage?
Many people do enjoy FFAPvP games because they like ganking other.
I have nothing against FFAPvP, I'm pretty sure there are people enjoying it, for example you.
To reduce the risk is completely rational and reasonable approach. Many people even play solo in MMOs for that reason. I think hiding and ganking is better approach - at least you play multiplayer game.
Anyway it seems you do not know how Albion works. There are solo gankers or small group gankers - usually good players, or players with crap gear, who gamble with low risk. Most ganking is organized by guilds - they go in certain areas, and start to attack every player or group who is not ally. There is a lot of tactics and strategy involved. At the same time there are strategies how to escape, even when you play solo. Usually the gank raid finishes when other guild or guilds attack the area, as their players were ganked. So in most cases gankers are killed by other gankers. Then guild leader usually sells the loot, or put part of it in guild stocks for wars.
It is well made and really entertaining gameplay focused on ganking.
The issue is the solo RPG content. They add more in recent updates, but the problem is quality, not quantity. RPG is extremely nerfed, and solo RPG is completely safe and pointless. There are two rule setts in the game - full loot, fun, intense, high risk with high rewards MMO, and completely safe, no risk, small rewards, boring solo RPG grind.
Ya, I mean, so why would pve players just enjoy getting ganked which is my question.
Even if I enjoy ganking and want to do it myself I have to level up through pve to the point that I am strong enough to gank other people.
And if I don't even enjoy ganking I won't play the game. Unless there are other form of pvp.
No one enjoy being the sheep.
And your so called strategy means minimizing the risk.
And if there is risk gankers can just hide. What can PvE players do? log off till the area is safe?
That sounds like bad players making a terrible time for people until other people have to come in and fix it.
This is idiocy. You call completive players bad.
Competitive players compete, not skitter around looking for easy targets and running from challenge.
Gankers are not competitive players, they are trolls.
This is again why controlled PvP experiences are so much more popular. Because they provide an actual challenge where this nonsense only offers a fleeting power trip.
Competitive players are not bad. Whiny trolls who want to pretend griefing people is "competition" are bad.
That sounds like bad players making a terrible time for people until other people have to come in and fix it.
This is idiocy. You call completive players bad.
Competitive players compete, not skitter around looking for easy targets and running from challenge.
Gankers are not competitive players, they are trolls.
This is again why controlled PvP experiences are so much more popular. Because they provide an actual challenge where this nonsense only offers a fleeting power trip.
Competitive players are not bad. Whiny trolls who want to pretend griefing people is "competition" are bad.
I agree with this to an extent.
As someone who plays both and isn't lumped into the pvper or carebear group I feel like you know what you are getting into. Those pvp servers are clearly labeled. Those games are obviously upfront about free for all pvp or the structure of the pvp in general.
I've played Shadowbane, pvp WoW servers, Everquest pve, Daoc, done battle grounds, ranked arena, City of Heroes, played tons of Planetside and everything in between.
Every single time it was very clearly spelled out by the game what I was getting into. By pvp flags, server choices, or the actual trailers for the games. Let's be real here every single player going into these games wants to be the top dog and do the killing and be the ganker. It's not trolling it's accepting the rule set presented by the game for you to play. If you don't want to risk being ganked you could clearly avoid it in every situation just by picking what game you are going to play by what rule set is presented.
Personally if the rule set let's high level players kill noobs who just spawned in and started, with no consequence and for no other reason other than to be griefing a-holes, the game itself is responsible for having crap design.
Post edited by Nilden on
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Comments
Just looking at modern day monetization makes EQ of old look like a total steal of a deal, box sub and expansions, no cash shop, no battle pass, no loot boxes, no krono farmers, etc etc. Saying EQ tried to drain as much money as possible is just laughably false.
As far as the time commitment I played MUDs that were free that required a larger time commitment just because that's how the game was designed. They were keeping people playing on the grind with zero monetization involved so saying the grind in EQ was a deliberate way of making money could just as easily be countered with saying it took longer to do it in some MUDs for free.
Some MUDs literally took people years. Like Dragonrealms. Some had over 200 levels and remorts. Some just had soft caps.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Just reading about old school post got me thinking.
The current genre has been corrupted by greed and trash. Much like stagnant water. It's full of garbage and not fit for consumption. They only innovated in how they could take money from players. In a lot of cases these big companies abandoned the MMORPG genre altogether in favor of chasing easy, more lucrative, more predatory, money in mobile games.
Even the older games that used to be box, sub, expansion all now have cash shops and loot boxes or some form of it and game tokens like kronos where they once used to ban players for selling items and gold they now sell it themselves.
The only way I get back to that pure tropical island old school experience is with private servers and emulators. Like City of Heroes Homecoming, Project 1999 and WoW Classic severs like Nefarious when that was a thing.
From my perspective this is what they have done to the genre and I couldn't sum it up better than with the contrast provided by these pictures.
I encourage you to try the emulators of the old games. Like:
Ultima Online free shards
City of Heroes Homecoming
Star Wars Galaxies emulators like Restoration
Project 1999 for EverQuest
Magicbane for Shadowbane
Here's a List:
https://mmofolklorist.com/2022/07/25/the-complete-list-of-rogue-servers-for-dead-mmos-2022/
They might not have all of them and they might get shut down but the experience is night and day compared to the modern swamp. They also expose just how little it takes to keep these games running and most are either self funded or run on donations and cost next to nothing.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Do we have professions in the gaming industry or not. The entire problem is resting on industry "professionals" that dont have a clue what the customer wants.
Before making a game, they really should have a product that customers want to play. Its the studio's job to be experts in their field and find a way to make a product customers really want.
What is really happening is that studio's are making products that DEVS want. Which usually turns out to be a simplistic substandard money grabbing POS game.
Nah I dont agree at all with this. I have seen way to many times with small and medium companies that a specific dev in charge of a system will have a massive amount of design creative freedom over the system. Additionally the lead dev has an massive amount of say in the process. This goes all the way back.
I even remember when Raph lead dev of UO said he single handedly was holding back trammel because he thought that solution was too much and wanted continue small incremental patches to solve griefing and bad actors in UO. Only after he left did an executive finally make a decison.
I have seen in beta where lead devs and individual devs have said they had freedom over the design. Additionally the devs are on the creative boards where they discuss these ideas.
Maybe you are talking some big picture concepts they might not have total control of, but usually the problem is in the details not the concepts.
Even now if you named off 20 concepts I would have no clue if a game would be good or bad until you get to the details.
So devs are making most of these decisions not executives. Just so we are clear, I am not talking junior devs, but middle to senior devs on the project.
The player base at the end of the day, just likes their old school games. Stop trying to make vegetables taste better and just appreciate your vegetables. Most people want to cheat the system and not play the game. Half your player base just plays cause everyone else does. They want easy mode because they do not want to play. That is who gets gross marketed to. We are the niche. The ones who get left behind and ignored. We love playing our games and are so good at it, we grief the people who don't play well and who get mass marketed to. Stick to indie games at this point. It's all we can really do.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
The industry executives are supposed to be professionals. They are supposed to know what the customer wants. Who cares if some lamer says they like something. You can find someone that says they will want anything. Its the professionals job to know where their market base is on the various systems.
You act as if over the last 8 years these MMO's have been wildly successful. Ummm open your eyes, the MMO market is swirling down the drain. People like you keep saying this is what the players asked for, yet people voted with their wallet and have shown in feedback they dont like the current MMO's.
There is a difference from EZ mode and QOL. Some people cannot grasp the difference.
You stated, "Who cares if some lamer says they like something."<----the lamer makes the most money. The real time casual rage quitter makes the most money. He's not a loyal or competitive gamer. He will try anything and has money to spend to impress his friends. He also plays games and streams them to social media to make money. This audience has the most voice.
You stated, "You act as if over the last 8 years these MMO's have been wildly successful."<----I did not mean in any way to give you this impression. MMO's are being manipulated to be popular anyway. WoW is still relevant because it caters to bad gamers who don't really like to play games. Nothing can defeat WoW other than itself.
You stated, " People like you keep saying this is what the players asked for, yet people voted with their wallet and have shown in feedback they don't like the current MMO's."<----I stated players asked Devs to change mechanics and customize the game experience to what the communities agreed upon. After the community got what they wanted, the community wanted the games to back to normal and then try to rebalance just the classes. This rebalancing just never worked, and they just slowly lost interest and left. We both agreed here. I never disagreed. This is classic communism looks better on paper than in real life anyway.
You stated, "There is a difference from EZ mode and QOL. Some people cannot grasp the difference."<----yes, they can. you're implying that the game athletes do not have EZ mode, and they have no quality of life. They have the highest quality of life and those stoners who hate playing games but are the money-making audience has the lowest level QOL.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
WoW retail has made the entire game super simple outside of mythic dungeons.
So yeah I am sick of games being a breeze for some newb. I like content that is difficult and encourages people to group together. I think a game needs some solo areas for people during downtime but those areas need to increase in difficulty as well, so that better players always have a challenge. Newbs can group up to beat those areas if they want.
I want full magic with teleports, summons and other convenience like that so grouping is quick and you dont have to waste time on a running simulator, my time is valuable and I dont want to waste it running around places I have already been. I want plenty of inventory like UO so again I dont have to waste my time with inventory management disguised as game content.
I don't think it's that. It's no one want to be the sheep in a FFAPVP game. Even the typical wolf goes hiding when they have chance on dying.
I don't know how Albion did it. Maybe it stopped rampart ganking somehow. I don't play it so I don't know.
The most competitive pvp is games like arena or MOBA type of setting. Or at least RealmvRealm where there are probably more fans in that genre. That being said warhammer online is a failure so I can't really say people want RealmvRealm.
You need to stop FFAPvP to be about high level running around ganking newbies.
You stated, "most streamed games are competitive"<----I have to disagree. You're under the illusion you are competing when it's just dumb luck that wins the fight. You're in an arena that isn't interactive with the same stats and the same weapons. It's basically who pulls the trigger first that wins.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
The ones that did launch like Crowfall and Shroud of the Avatar were just laughably bad. Heck this site couldn't even give away betas keys to Crowfall.
In fact I am so jaded by the utter lack of talent and missed delivery dates by years, along with the lies just to get money, that I won't even buy something new on release (if they even do release lol) I'll wait a month watch a bunch of gameplay and some reviews.
I'm sure some company with talent and money will release an actual MMORPG in the future but it's been a barren wasteland since Final Fantasy 14 and Elder Scrolls online back in what 2013 2014? New World was the only other noteworthy release in my book and it wasn't anything I would bother to write home about.
The doom and gloom people are right. The genre is in a sad state and the only stuff I play is really old.
The thing is all it would take is one amazing game to get millions of people back into this genre. However that means MMORPG devs are going to need to step up their game both literally and figuratively. No more hollow, broken promises and lies. Walk the walk not just talk the talk.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/What I mean is many people like ganking. But pretty much almost no one like getting ganked. Even the people that enjoy ganking usually hide when they have chance of dying.
And what competition is there when people only fight when they have the advantage?
Many people do enjoy FFAPvP games because they like ganking other.
I have nothing against FFAPvP, I'm pretty sure there are people enjoying it, for example you.
When you have a system where 1% of the people are winning 99.9% of the time, that leaves alot of losers. The people losing 70%+ of the time are just going to leave. This creates an even worse problem because people in the mid tier have nobody to kill, so they become the targets, then they leave and soon all you have is the 1% and a dead world.
This puts the MMO always trying to find ways to bring more easy targets into the game. Its a constant cycle of loss of players.
PVP systems work when it pits the 1% against others in or near their own bracket. Not sure exactly the numbers but I have seen PVP games work if people have at least around a 30%-40%+ win rate. I think World of Tanks and World of Warships works like this.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Also this notion of saturation for live service but not single player due to the number of hours. There are so many single player games where people can put 1k hours in ez. 12-100 hour estimate he is talking about is for subpar games usually.
The problem is just the games coming out now are not very good, therefore they cant standout from older games. For example I just read that the old game dwarf fortress put the game on steam and has made a bunch of money just recently. This is a 16 year old game that is raking in cash over new games being released.
I have easily 1500 hours in Path of Exile.
Ya, I mean, so why would pve players just enjoy getting ganked which is my question.
Even if I enjoy ganking and want to do it myself I have to level up through pve to the point that I am strong enough to gank other people.
And if I don't even enjoy ganking I won't play the game. Unless there are other form of pvp.
No one enjoy being the sheep.
And your so called strategy means minimizing the risk.
And if there is risk gankers can just hide. What can PvE players do? log off till the area is safe?
Gankers are not competitive players, they are trolls.
This is again why controlled PvP experiences are so much more popular. Because they provide an actual challenge where this nonsense only offers a fleeting power trip.
Competitive players are not bad. Whiny trolls who want to pretend griefing people is "competition" are bad.
As someone who plays both and isn't lumped into the pvper or carebear group I feel like you know what you are getting into. Those pvp servers are clearly labeled. Those games are obviously upfront about free for all pvp or the structure of the pvp in general.
I've played Shadowbane, pvp WoW servers, Everquest pve, Daoc, done battle grounds, ranked arena, City of Heroes, played tons of Planetside and everything in between.
Every single time it was very clearly spelled out by the game what I was getting into. By pvp flags, server choices, or the actual trailers for the games. Let's be real here every single player going into these games wants to be the top dog and do the killing and be the ganker. It's not trolling it's accepting the rule set presented by the game for you to play. If you don't want to risk being ganked you could clearly avoid it in every situation just by picking what game you are going to play by what rule set is presented.
Personally if the rule set let's high level players kill noobs who just spawned in and started, with no consequence and for no other reason other than to be griefing a-holes, the game itself is responsible for having crap design.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/