No. I don't want it.

Graveblade

The fantasy MMORPG genre is over saturated by generic games with no immersion, no atmosphere. When I say "arcade game" here, I am referring to games that feel like a game to play because it doesn't let the player to choose freely what to do, it restricts you, has many features that show you plainly it is just a game, and it is on rails.

I'm from the more oldschool crowd who likes western traditional fantasy of the more serious style, but most games nowadays seem to basically be arcade games. Even Elder Scrolls Online and New World to me feel like arcade games, even though I don't really think Elder Scrolls the series in general were meant to be like that? The style is still a bit cartoon to me, animations come into it too, the pace of game, pace of walking/running even, no real care about seeing at night so no real impact there, no mechanics that actually make it seem like a living breathing world and no real atmosphere.

I don't want arcade action where everyone runs at 50 miles an hour, where everyone is a God hero, and where there are unicorns farting out rainbows everywhere....

I think one of the real problems here actually is all the quality of life and UI crap that became so normalised over the years. It massively dumbed down the genre.

Some questions about mechanics and game design:

Why do you want so many ui elements on the screen always?

Keep the ui more contained, perhaps only show at certain spots where you are doing the activity, not everything always everywhere in the world.

Why do you want so much hand holding in the game like pointers/arrows to quests etc?

This is just terrible, it just screams at you that you are playing a game, not being immersed into an rpg. This is an "arcade game" feature.

Why do you have to make it so each area has mobs appropriate for your level, so there is never any real danger?

This is just straight up dumb and shows how on-rails your game is. Making everything scale is just as dumb. There needs to be a mix of these things to make it more like a living breathing fantasy world.

I think what the common formula creates these days is an arcade game... It always creates arcade games. So break the mold.

I take a different stance than many with games. I see games more like board games where there are old games where people love the core gameplay. All they mainly need is updating it with a newer skin, and just making sure the mechanics aren't clunky purely because they didn't have the tech back when the game was made. People still love to play monopoly, people still love chess... People still love tetris, mario... People still love EQ, UO, SWG, DaoC...

There are some old MMORPG's out there that have an excellent core. Concepts for game design that totally still work today. It is just that some are now quite clunky. Don't misunderstand pace though, with clunkyness. These mainly just need a different front-end, not a complete redesign of the core of the game mechanics.

The mechanics people add in games these days turn games into arcade games and it is dumbing down not just MMORPG's, which I think got affected badly, but the entire industry. It is the wrong formula for MMORPG's nowadays I think. There is such an abundance of these arcade style MMORPG's out there it has been done to death.

Lets go back to the real immersive style of RPG. Lets make a deep dark LOTR/D&D style RPG. Something the opposite of the current games. Even D&D online was kind of cartoony, but it did have a bit of atmosphere in the dungeons. I want...

A game where it is harder to see at night, where you get the atmosphere of a survival game.

A game where you don't see people running around everywhere following quest markers.

A game that doesn't have ui everywhere making you know for sure you are just playing a game.

A game that actually has some difficulty, there is proper risk vs reward.

A game where certain items are incredibly rare.

A game where crafting actually matters and being a master is rare and respected.

A game where certain skills are hard to attain and valued if you go down that particular route.

A game which is open and not on rails, this is what a proper RPG should be like in my opinion, as it isn't an arcade game.

There are many other things.

Stop making arcade games! I know there are some out there that are not... Like Mortal Online 2 and Pantheon if it ever releases, but we need more and better quality. I actually think it could be succesful if done well. We basically need some company with a lot of money to break the current arcade game paradigm and show just how immersive and epic an mmorpg could potentially be. Arcade style is fine for some, but has been done to death. Just like a book or a movie can be immersive. Just like the LOTR movies or books, or GoT can be immersive, it has some grit, it has atmosphere, it has a more serious tone... Make a damn game that is immersive and not on rails, not a game that "shows" you it is a game, not an "arcade game".

mekhere

I wish they would too. My only complaint is that sometimes the quests are a tid bit too hard to really figure out. 

Graveblade

mekhere said:

I wish they would too. My only complaint is that sometimes the quests are a tid bit too hard to really figure out. 

I think if that is the case then it is the wrong combination/focus of the game. I think "quests" should actually be a more niche part of an MMORPG, and not simple or easy.

Eg. You find a random npc out in the middle of nowhere who needs something and just gives a description, maybe it ends up being a quest chain. The reward is just some nice piece of gear or something.

So quests aren't something for giving experience and leveling up, they are just like bonus loot. Some could possibly give some really epic loot if it is a long quest chain.

The point is really as I said, quests probably shouldn't be these tiny little objectives you do over and over and over again in order to level up. They should be unique and special encounters/tasks giving unique items and such in my opinion.

Scot

The problem is that you want MMORPGs to turn against the tide that is easy-mode that has pushed games in one direction for decades, probably since gaming went online.

So why I can see some difficulty being brought back in the right MMO there is no way we will see a paradigm shift. Crowd funded may eventually be a solution but no sign so far and with CF you take on a whole new host of problems.

Kyleran

Scot said:

The problem is that you want MMORPGs to turn against the tide that is easy-mode that has pushed games in one direction for decades, probably since gaming went online.

So why I can see some difficulty being brought back in the right MMO there is no way we will see a paradigm shift. Crowd funded may eventually be a solution but no sign so far and with CF you take on a whole new host of problems.

On the bright side "easy mode" gaming is perfect for we who multitask and watch Netflix with our wives while playing.

Who has time to pay attention while gaming these days....

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kyleran

Deathkon1 said:

Kyleran said:

Scot said:

The problem is that you want MMORPGs to turn against the tide that is easy-mode that has pushed games in one direction for decades, probably since gaming went online.

So why I can see some difficulty being brought back in the right MMO there is no way we will see a paradigm shift. Crowd funded may eventually be a solution but no sign so far and with CF you take on a whole new host of problems.

On the bright side "easy mode" gaming is perfect for we who multitask and watch Netflix with our wives while playing.

Who has time to pay attention while gaming these days....

Me since I'm not married and have the ability to skip sleep to play my favorite games, its all about the will to make time. 

Get back to me when you can balance a 50 hr a week job, keep the wife happy,  raise 3 children, coach youth sports, lead scout troops and still show up four nights  a week to run 5+ hour 40 person raids week in, week out. 

Uphill in the snow of course, both ways.

You'd be surprised on how little sleep one can actually live on, 4 hours was just fine for years...now I get about 5 or so, permanently broken I guess.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kyleran

No, be smarter than me, live your best life, it's all too short trust me.

Scot

Kyleran said:

Deathkon1 said:

Kyleran said:

Scot said:

The problem is that you want MMORPGs to turn against the tide that is easy-mode that has pushed games in one direction for decades, probably since gaming went online.

So why I can see some difficulty being brought back in the right MMO there is no way we will see a paradigm shift. Crowd funded may eventually be a solution but no sign so far and with CF you take on a whole new host of problems.

On the bright side "easy mode" gaming is perfect for we who multitask and watch Netflix with our wives while playing.

Who has time to pay attention while gaming these days....

Me since I'm not married and have the ability to skip sleep to play my favorite games, its all about the will to make time. 

Get back to me when you can balance a 50 hr a week job, keep the wife happy,  raise 3 children, coach youth sports, lead scout troops and still show up four nights  a week to run 5+ hour 40 person raids week in, week out. 

Uphill in the snow of course, both ways.

You'd be surprised on how little sleep one can actually live on, 4 hours was just fine for years...now I get about 5 or so, permanently broken I guess.

You clearly need some advice to lead a "better life" ((do I get kudos for coining that ))

So those youth sports guys, they could be in New World sorting out your resources and that scout troop could be in your other game sorting that out for you. Just tell them you are giving them some "mobile time", they will love that.

If you haven't realised what a resource a wife is to a gamer you have missed the boat. You see them gaming with their husbands, that's quality time right there, who needs to get them flowers when you can give them an in game item?

Dr Scot is available for relationship advice at any time, even though I have never been married and has no idea of how complex a situation it is.


Seriously, 5 hours sleep is not good for you, hopefully you get a nap in the day.

Gorwe

I, for one, do not mind it. IF it is a fun experience. But yeah, the over-reliance on pointers and such lead to, frankly, quite abysmal state of both Quest and World designs. Gone are the times when you could navigate by landmark features. Gone are even the days of somewhat descriptive, immersive quest texts. Nowadays it's all rather, for the lack of a better word, industrialized.

Then again, as long as it's fun, I do not mind it. At all.

Darkhawke

Gorwe said:

I, for one, do not mind it. IF it is a fun experience. But yeah, the over-reliance on pointers and such lead to, frankly, quite abysmal state of both Quest and World designs. Gone are the times when you could navigate by landmark features. Gone are even the days of somewhat descriptive, immersive quest texts. Nowadays it's all rather, for the lack of a better word, industrialized.

Then again, as long as it's fun, I do not mind it. At all.

Not necessarily gone there are things one can do you deliver a better experience. 

For ex . In LOTRO I 1.turn off Names "N" 2. turn off Show Enemies on the mini map..
   These 2 things alone really change your immersion and experience .They are several things you can also. Not show the quest rings or field locations on map , just find your way using the Quest lore provided..

Also very satisfying when you accomplish the quests in this manner .

Graveblade

Scot said:

The problem is that you want MMORPGs to turn against the tide that is easy-mode that has pushed games in one direction for decades, probably since gaming went online.

So why I can see some difficulty being brought back in the right MMO there is no way we will see a paradigm shift. Crowd funded may eventually be a solution but no sign so far and with CF you take on a whole new host of problems.

I may have a slight difference in opinion here.

I think that in general gamers don't know what they want and I think a modern looking game but with similar mechanics to the oldschool mmorpgs could be very succesful. The reason being that the formula was never bad to begin with. It was all the extra crap that was put ontop of it that ruined it, but people don't realise it.

So now it is the norm to create these generic arcade like mmorpg, but that doesn't actually mean this is "the only way a game can be successful". To the contrary, I think a game like that which I mentioned could be very very succesful.

An example of this in another genre is Dark and Darker that people are currently playing. 100k on steam for the demo. It is a very simple game at its core with a very oldschool vibe, the mechanics are generally really quite oldschool in many ways, but they have got the risk vs reward and core gameplay loop down well. Dark and Darker could have come right out of the 90's.

Granted like others have said though, a game with these more oldschool mechanics won't appeal to "everyone", but that is ok. It would likely be a bit more hardcore than most games out there, but I think it could appeal to the majority if done really well because I think these types of hardcore mechanics, when done well, are actually MORE appealing to play, than the cookie cutter generic arcade mmorpgs that are around today.

Tiller

Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants. 

Scot

Graveblade said:

Scot said:

The problem is that you want MMORPGs to turn against the tide that is easy-mode that has pushed games in one direction for decades, probably since gaming went online.

So why I can see some difficulty being brought back in the right MMO there is no way we will see a paradigm shift. Crowd funded may eventually be a solution but no sign so far and with CF you take on a whole new host of problems.

I may have a slight difference in opinion here.

I think that in general gamers don't know what they want and I think a modern looking game but with similar mechanics to the oldschool mmorpgs could be very succesful. The reason being that the formula was never bad to begin with. It was all the extra crap that was put ontop of it that ruined it, but people don't realise it.

So now it is the norm to create these generic arcade like mmorpg, but that doesn't actually mean this is "the only way a game can be successful". To the contrary, I think a game like that which I mentioned could be very very succesful.

An example of this in another genre is Dark and Darker that people are currently playing. 100k on steam for the demo. It is a very simple game at its core with a very oldschool vibe, the mechanics are generally really quite oldschool in many ways, but they have got the risk vs reward and core gameplay loop down well. Dark and Darker could have come right out of the 90's.

Granted like others have said though, a game with these more oldschool mechanics won't appeal to "everyone", but that is ok. It would likely be a bit more hardcore than most games out there, but I think it could appeal to the majority if done really well because I think these types of hardcore mechanics, when done well, are actually MORE appealing to play, than the cookie cutter generic arcade mmorpgs that are around today.

I half agree with you, we are what we eat and we are what we game. Youngsters are used to the level of difficulty the industry now has because it is all they have played. But we have changed to, as a gamer you could not have gone through what has happened in the last twenty years without changing yourself.

We have become accustomed to the easy-mode play, we would find it an uphill struggle ourselves. That's why I see a challenge to east-mode only being done with baby steps.

Dark and Darker was a great game, but it is not going to cause a renascence in difficulty in MMOs, let me tell you what will. If a AAA MMO launched which was significantly harder and was an outrageous successes others would follow suit, that's what it takes for gaming to change direction these days, only indie will experiment.

Remember when WoW launched classic it was a big success, when asked about how that success might reflect in todays game they said "Classic will not effect the 'modern' game in any way". Obviously classic is more difficult, but nothing can be learnt from that and that's where we are with gaming studios.

But CF and indie are a silver lining of hope, I am just not holding my breath.

Graveblade

Tiller said:

Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants. 

Original WoW was much closer to oldschool mmorpg's than it is today in terms of mechanics and such though remember and it was a phenomenon. I'd be tempted to lump it into that category anyway but it was like half and half.

Embers Adrift is very low rated, obviously not actually a good game by the looks of things... This is a seperate thing to the mechanics itself. So it isn't really a comparison and not what I'm describing.

Graveblade

Scot said:

Graveblade said:

Scot said:

The problem is that you want MMORPGs to turn against the tide that is easy-mode that has pushed games in one direction for decades, probably since gaming went online.

So why I can see some difficulty being brought back in the right MMO there is no way we will see a paradigm shift. Crowd funded may eventually be a solution but no sign so far and with CF you take on a whole new host of problems.

I may have a slight difference in opinion here.

I think that in general gamers don't know what they want and I think a modern looking game but with similar mechanics to the oldschool mmorpgs could be very succesful. The reason being that the formula was never bad to begin with. It was all the extra crap that was put ontop of it that ruined it, but people don't realise it.

So now it is the norm to create these generic arcade like mmorpg, but that doesn't actually mean this is "the only way a game can be successful". To the contrary, I think a game like that which I mentioned could be very very succesful.

An example of this in another genre is Dark and Darker that people are currently playing. 100k on steam for the demo. It is a very simple game at its core with a very oldschool vibe, the mechanics are generally really quite oldschool in many ways, but they have got the risk vs reward and core gameplay loop down well. Dark and Darker could have come right out of the 90's.

Granted like others have said though, a game with these more oldschool mechanics won't appeal to "everyone", but that is ok. It would likely be a bit more hardcore than most games out there, but I think it could appeal to the majority if done really well because I think these types of hardcore mechanics, when done well, are actually MORE appealing to play, than the cookie cutter generic arcade mmorpgs that are around today.

I half agree with you, we are what we eat and we are what we game. Youngsters are used to the level of difficulty the industry now has because it is all they have played. But we have changed to, as a gamer you could not have gone through what has happened in the last twenty years without changing yourself.

We have become accustomed to the easy-mode play, we would find it an uphill struggle ourselves. That's why I see a challenge to east-mode only being done with baby steps.

Dark and Darker was a great game, but it is not going to cause a renascence in difficulty in MMOs, let me tell you what will. If a AAA MMO launched which was significantly harder and was an outrageous successes others would follow suit, that's what it takes for gaming to change direction these days, only indie will experiment.

Remember when WoW launched classic it was a big success, when asked about how that success might reflect in todays game they said "Classic will not effect the 'modern' game in any way". Obviously classic is more difficult, but nothing can be learnt from that and that's where we are with gaming studios.

But CF and indie are a silver lining of hope, I am just not holding my breath.

Some interesting points made.

Sure youngsters and oldies alike perhaps are used to this easier streamlined style of gameplay nowadays. Where I think differently perhaps is that the risk vs reward, when done well, I think can actually make a person like the game more, than the easy mode play.

Easy mode play is just easy mode game development.

Perfect example of oldschool style being somehing people like really I think is Dark Souls series. It is loved by many with lots of offshoot games copying the style. And it is harder on purpose with a lot of oldschool style mechanics but a modern frontend.

Wow classic and the explanation that nothing can be learned by the older styles of gameplay is in my opinion a fundamental problem with most modern devs mindset on mmorpgs.

It goes back to my analogy about board games. These companies are trying to change the core mechanics of these games and make it all so streamlined, when these core more minimalist mechanics of the oldschool mmorpgs I think created stronger psychological addictions or immersion (there weren't so many ui elements etc etc and mechanics like teleporting to dungeons that "show" you it is just a game that you are playing) that people got from these older games. These companies are trying to change something which already works as intended.

So I kind of think it goes like this:

Easy mode games with lots of small addictive features, our current gaming meta.

vs.

Harder mode games that give overall addiction to the core features/mechanics, and this is what the oldschool mmorpgs were about.

I think this is partly why most of the modern games are going down hill. They are making these games "too" complex and streamlined which is removing the things that actually creates a core addictive game in the first place.

It is a lot of these oldschool mechanics and styles (gamplay wise, not graphically) that enable these addictive game loops in my opinion. But you have to tune the game correctly (get a good risk vs reward system that makes a person keep coming back).

I think these days though we do need a very pretty frontend for an mmorpg. So it will likely take a AAA company to make an oldschool style but modern looking mmorpg to pull it off and show how this style is actually preferable, when done really well.

Arglebargle

Unless you are playing in am amnesia, or  new visitor to the continent trope, your character should know tons more than you as the player actually know.  You shouldn't have to explore to find the next city.  You'd know that, or ask around and find out.   So, some game abstractions are useful, and actually more immersive than blindly wandering around to find stuff.

I like exploration in games, but some of the old school bits are just old hair shirts, and are rightfully dismissed as too much work for too little fun.  

Gorwe

Darkhawke said:

Gorwe said:

I, for one, do not mind it. IF it is a fun experience. But yeah, the over-reliance on pointers and such lead to, frankly, quite abysmal state of both Quest and World designs. Gone are the times when you could navigate by landmark features. Gone are even the days of somewhat descriptive, immersive quest texts. Nowadays it's all rather, for the lack of a better word, industrialized.

Then again, as long as it's fun, I do not mind it. At all.

Not necessarily gone there are things one can do you deliver a better experience. 

For ex . In LOTRO I 1.turn off Names "N" 2. turn off Show Enemies on the mini map..
   These 2 things alone really change your immersion and experience .They are several things you can also. Not show the quest rings or field locations on map , just find your way using the Quest lore provided..

Also very satisfying when you accomplish the quests in this manner .

That is true. But the number of games that allow this is very, very small. Compare Skyrim and Morrowind if you want to see the influence of quest markers. Even if you turned them off, world is no longer designed so you could navigate it properly without any external help.

Scot

Tiller said:

Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants. 

I think that's an unfair comparison, Embers Adrift is a early access game pretending its launched. From what I have seen they have a few years of work to do before it gets to a state where I would say "launch it!". Look at Dark Souls, there is an appetite in "solo" games, could that appetite be found in MMOs as well? I think to an extent, but only to an extent, I really doubt Dark Souls the MMORPG would be a huge winner.

Scot

Graveblade said:

Some interesting points made.

Sure youngsters and oldies alike perhaps are used to this easier streamlined style of gameplay nowadays. Where I think differently perhaps is that the risk vs reward, when done well, I think can actually make a person like the game more, than the easy mode play.

Easy mode play is just easy mode game development.

Perfect example of oldschool style being somehing people like really I think is Dark Souls series. It is loved by many with lots of offshoot games copying the style. And it is harder on purpose with a lot of oldschool style mechanics but a modern frontend.

Wow classic and the explanation that nothing can be learned by the older styles of gameplay is in my opinion a fundamental problem with most modern devs mindset on mmorpgs.

It goes back to my analogy about board games. These companies are trying to change the core mechanics of these games and make it all so streamlined, when these core more minimalist mechanics of the oldschool mmorpgs I think created stronger psychological addictions or immersion (there weren't so many ui elements etc etc and mechanics like teleporting to dungeons that "show" you it is just a game that you are playing) that people got from these older games. These companies are trying to change something which already works as intended.

So I kind of think it goes like this:

Easy mode games with lots of small addictive features, our current gaming meta.

vs.

Harder mode games that give overall addiction to the core features/mechanics, and this is what the oldschool mmorpgs were about.

I think this is partly why most of the modern games are going down hill. They are making these games "too" complex and streamlined which is removing the things that actually creates a core addictive game in the first place.

It is a lot of these oldschool mechanics and styles (gamplay wise, not graphically) that enable these addictive game loops in my opinion. But you have to tune the game correctly (get a good risk vs reward system that makes a person keep coming back).

I think these days though we do need a very pretty frontend for an mmorpg. So it will likely take a AAA company to make an oldschool style but modern looking mmorpg to pull it off and show how this style is actually preferable, when done really well.

I agree, in fact I used the dark souls analogy before I read your post. But I don't see a DS MMORPG doing hugely well. What I do see is something between DS and todays easy-mode MMOS doing well, a hybrid approach.

To further your board game analogy we used to play Monopoly and Trivial Pursuit and now we are playing Snakes and Ladders with a gambling element.

I think the only difference between us is how more difficulty could be brought back, the extent one game could forge a new path, otherwise we have the same take here.

Kyleran

Scot said:

Graveblade said:

Some interesting points made.

Sure youngsters and oldies alike perhaps are used to this easier streamlined style of gameplay nowadays. Where I think differently perhaps is that the risk vs reward, when done well, I think can actually make a person like the game more, than the easy mode play.

Easy mode play is just easy mode game development.

Perfect example of oldschool style being somehing people like really I think is Dark Souls series. It is loved by many with lots of offshoot games copying the style. And it is harder on purpose with a lot of oldschool style mechanics but a modern frontend.

Wow classic and the explanation that nothing can be learned by the older styles of gameplay is in my opinion a fundamental problem with most modern devs mindset on mmorpgs.

It goes back to my analogy about board games. These companies are trying to change the core mechanics of these games and make it all so streamlined, when these core more minimalist mechanics of the oldschool mmorpgs I think created stronger psychological addictions or immersion (there weren't so many ui elements etc etc and mechanics like teleporting to dungeons that "show" you it is just a game that you are playing) that people got from these older games. These companies are trying to change something which already works as intended.

So I kind of think it goes like this:

Easy mode games with lots of small addictive features, our current gaming meta.

vs.

Harder mode games that give overall addiction to the core features/mechanics, and this is what the oldschool mmorpgs were about.

I think this is partly why most of the modern games are going down hill. They are making these games "too" complex and streamlined which is removing the things that actually creates a core addictive game in the first place.

It is a lot of these oldschool mechanics and styles (gamplay wise, not graphically) that enable these addictive game loops in my opinion. But you have to tune the game correctly (get a good risk vs reward system that makes a person keep coming back).

I think these days though we do need a very pretty frontend for an mmorpg. So it will likely take a AAA company to make an oldschool style but modern looking mmorpg to pull it off and show how this style is actually preferable, when done really well.

I agree, in fact I used the dark souls analogy before I read your post. But I don't see a DS MMORPG doing hugely well. What I do see is something between DS and todays easy-mode MMOS doing well, a hybrid approach.

To further your board game analogy we used to play Monopoly and Trivial Pursuit and now we are playing Snakes and Ladders with a gambling element.

I think the only difference between us is how more difficulty could be brought back, the extent one game could forge a new path, otherwise we have the same take here.

Don't know about you, but my friends and I used to play Axis & Allies, a big step up from Stratego.

Graveblade

Scot said:

I agree, in fact I used the dark souls analogy before I read your post. But I don't see a DS MMORPG doing hugely well. What I do see is something between DS and todays easy-mode MMOS doing well, a hybrid approach.

To further your board game analogy we used to play Monopoly and Trivial Pursuit and now we are playing Snakes and Ladders with a gambling element.

I think the only difference between us is how more difficulty could be brought back, the extent one game could forge a new path, otherwise we have the same take here.

Yeah looks like we do have a similar take. I'm not sure how they would make a DS mmorpg, I agree it would likely have to be a hybrid approach.

Really I was just using it to demonstrate how some of these older style mechanics can be really fun and games using them can be super succesful (think roguelikes too, it originates from a more hardcore oldschool style), but need to be tuned well. The indie companies these days are finding it out. Lots of oldschool style mechanics coming back in indie games. It is because they really have an addictive psychological component to them.

Maybe it will even take the rest of the industry to continue showing how these more oldschool mechanics can actually be far more rewarding than the current easy mode play, and 'eventually' we will get someone good who will make an mmorpg with them and show how successful it can be.

I personally do have an idea for an mmorpg which is a hybrid between modern and oldschool. May start fleshing out the idea next year. Essentially an mmorpg with both pve and pvp, on a smaller scale than most mmorpgs, with similar features to the old sandbox style mmorpgs which made loot valuable, but with some rogue(lite) features to create a risk vs reward game loop while still having progression.

Scot

Kyleran said:

Don't know about you, but my friends and I used to play Axis & Allies, a big step up from Stratego.

We did everything from A&A to WW2 war games, through to Dune and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century:

delete5230

Tiller said:

Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants. 

WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed.
Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT. 

Scot

delete5230 said:

Tiller said:

Pretty much described Embers Adrift. I remember showing a few people SWG back in 2004; one said it was too hard, another said it was boring. Then WoW came out and they thought it was the best MMO ever; and so did many people. Seems a majority don't want what OP wants. 

WoW modernized mmorpgs. Anything older was a draft of what was needed.
Unfortunately, for the last 12 years it had gone too far with it being DEVELOPERS FAULT. 

We can't just blame the developers Delete, though it is the studios fault in the main. Studios became more and more run by executives vison not designers vision, as the industry started to become more and more profitable executives from other industries parachuted into gaming studios like the former CEO of EA. That guy had been the likes of VP to Haagen Dazs and a big chemical company, no previous experience of gaming, EA's current board has only one person on it with gaming experience. As gaming became the most profitable form of entertainment industry that process sped up. Developers don't have the say they used to, it is all about how a game will look to investors and what the quarterlies will be like.

We played our part too, if you have played a MMO since WoW came out you are part of the problem. We all are, but what were we going to do give up on MMORPG's because they were changing? So I put some of the blame on our shoulders, even though we had no idea that the changes we saw in in WoW were going to be taken this far.