MMO players being their own source of unhappiness

Ralphie2449

In many big mmos you will often see people who seem to be extremely angry, unhappy and at times even hateful of the mmo they are playing which makes you wonder why they are still playing? Rhetorical question as we know they keep playing since their self worth depends on said video game and are often "too invested" to just leave since they dont have anything meaningful going in their real lives.

For me it was always quite simple to enjoy the mmo even when those people were around, the moment an MMO changed for the worse and it became clear it wont be going back, I simply moved on and it doesnt matter I had the account for 5-10 years. (I could try sell it for some ez cash though at times)

Now a common denominator with those people who seem to hateplay an MMO seem to be themselves, they absolutely hate the grind even though they play an MMO which is all about grinding but it is worse than that.

These are the people who religiously follow streamers and youtubers who post things like:
-"EPIC FARM OF X META WEAPON"

-"BEST GODROLL!! EZ FARM X ACTIVITY"

-"MOST OPTIMAL REP FARM"

-"MUST HAVES B4 RAID/XPAC"

-"BROKEN BUILD, JUST FARM Y MOD FROM X ACTIVITY"

-"DO THESE THINGS AND YOU LL BE GOD"

These videos never suggest playing the game normally, at a normal pace, they almost always find some extremely degenerate way of farming or grinding something in order to get it faster, funnily enough many of those videos mention it isnt mandatory to do this yet many such players act like it is mandatory.

Not only that, but if someone joins their group without sharing that mentality and not having done what they think is "mandatory" they are annoyed and unironically see themselves as better for doing things that make them hate the game.

They keep grinding and grinding the same activity 30-50 times in the span of a few days and then wonder why the game doesnt feel fun anymore and how old games felt better aka muh nostalgia. It doesnt matter how fun a game or activity is, if you do the same thing 50 times in a row its gonna feel terrible!

Nobody is forcing them to play the game in such degenerate ways of course, they are doing it to themselves.

And the hybris gets even worse sometimes, when they do all this because of some broken/meta weapon and then have the gall to complain to the devs that they nerfed an obviously broken weapon and how that invalidates their degenerate playstyle, as if they didnt know the nerfhammer always inevitably comes in such cases.

A very recent example I can use is some very angry people complaining about Destiny 2 lost sectors being a source of RNG exotic armor pieces, people would post about how they ve done 30 lost sectors in a row and only got 2 exotics they didnt want and how the system is terrible because they want X exotic quickly.

Meanwhile I casually enjoyed the game and kept doing a lost sector every day since i started and after a couple of months I had pretty much all exotics, many of them I didnt care about and often I decided on a build after getting the exotic instead of using whatever exotic a streamer told me is "meta" and freaking out it hasnt dropped after doing the same thing 40 times.

This keeps happening in many mmos, I keep enjoying games when many people around me seem absolutely pissed, and the only thing they have in common is that they play the game in such degenerate ways while I play the game in a way the devs intended.

Dattelis

Personally, I feel 'lockout' content is kind of handled poorly. In most mmorpgs, a single source of lockout content contains EVERYTHING a character needs, so that ends up being the only kind of thing that matters. I always felt that if you divided stuff up and put them on seperate timers, people have 'more things to do.' So maybe you do a raid for core pieces like armor and weapons, but another worldly type of content for accessories or even currencies/resources to upgrade your armor and weapons or even just to add affixes to them. Make gearing up more dynamic and have variety that honestly makes sense if you were to actually exist in that world. Or even go back to some of how these older mmorpgs did where killing a big boss didn't even give you gear but crafting materials/recipes/etc then you had to find someone with a high enough craft level to make it. Just something more than 'kill x raid bosses for the week' then log off until reset or hope on an alt to do it again.

OG_Solareus

Here Here

OG_Solareus

This guy gets it lol

Graveblade

OG_Solareus said:

This guy gets it lol

ESO's tuning is bad, Summit is right.

He is moaning because the way the systems were built, the way the game works, is there is massive disparity between character power making PvP pointless unless you have been playing for like a year and have every pot and gear piece or skill you need, know every effect, know the game inside and out, just to be able to hold your own sometimes.

Essentially it isn't about being good at the game in the mechanical sense at all really unless you are already god tier in gear and game knowledge, it is just about just having better stats. This is common to MMORPG's and many people see it as the norm, but I personally don't think it is actually a good thing to accept in the genre.

It should be more something like this giving a newbie a fighting chance:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(35 damage)---God(40 damage)>

Not:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(60 damage)-----------------------------------God(240 damage)>

You will see people in the MMORPG genre, and particularly those who's game you are criticising, rallying behind it defending it saying "just git gud". Those people are hurting the genre because what they are really doing is making excuses which allow devs to be lazy and create bad systems and bad balance.

A lot of MMORPG combat systems and balance are made like fake action systems. You are duped into thinking if you use your abilities right you will win. In reality, the actions you do matter very very little in many of these MMORPG's, and it is all about the gear and knowledge which takes 2 years of play to get... so a newbie or even someone playing for an average amount of time has zero chance.

Don't make excuses for bad systems people.

OldKingLog

Chicken or the egg really. MMORPGs have been lumbering dinosaurs for a long time. They are just not cost effective. So that means more modern MMOs are devolving into quasi-MMORPGs. Meaning more and more bits of content are being cut off and not replaced by anything meaningful. The last handful of MMORPGs I've played have simply tried to keep players active by drawing out their play time with near meaningless grind and time gating content. New World is a prime example of this behavior. The reason people chew through content as you describe it "in a degenerate way" is simply because it isn't content the players want. Its just bullshit you have to slog through to get to the parts of the game you want to play. Its nothing more than rat maze filler crap. And these rats are starting to get cranky that this garbage is all that ls left of a once proud genre.

delete5230

I don't have time to read this wall of text. But I do know they used to be good now they SUCK.  Let me repeat that now they suck !

People used to LOVE MMORPGS DEEPLY.  People are hoping for a miracle that's how much people so loved them...... That's why many of them are still here. 

Why are you here ?.... You must be one of the happy ones. If your happy, then you like the garbage put out in the last 10 years ! 

Hay, go play easy ESO, where it's so easy you don't need it to be an mmorpg.  

Sovrath

Graveblade said:

It should be more something like this giving a newbie a fighting chance:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(35 damage)---God(40 damage)>

Not:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(60 damage)-----------------------------------God(240 damage)>

This I agree with.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

caalem

Degenerate games encourage degenerate gameplay.

olepi

I found ESO's PvP to be kind of fun, actually. I only played in the below-50 no points games, where everybody has crap equipment and nobody is a god.

I think ESO should go with the battlegrounds idea like DAOC: have specific PvP areas for different levels. That way you will be playing against your peers, not the 24-hour/8-days-a-week player who has everything.

Brainy

The problem in MMO's is that people who have been around 2+ years have such a stacked advantage.  They know all the best spots, all the tricks or whatever.  They can go with low tier item/weapons and still win due to experience.  Then you start adding skill rotations etc..   Then on top of that you add gear/item levels, then on top of that you add FOTM knowledge of best skills/classes, then on top of all of that you have people that are just smarter or better players in general.  The entire deck is totally stacked against a newbie, and especially a low skilled newbie.

There has to be a way to create the matchmaker to put people at equivalent levels together so they have an equivalent chance to play and win.  Something that recognizes players win rates and able to move up through the tiers faster, so they can match them appropriately.  I have seen PVP games have match makers do this pretty well.

MMO's its strong get stronger and the weak get crushed.

Scot

olepi said:

I found ESO's PvP to be kind of fun, actually. I only played in the below-50 no points games, where everybody has crap equipment and nobody is a god.

I think ESO should go with the battlegrounds idea like DAOC: have specific PvP areas for different levels. That way you will be playing against your peers, not the 24-hour/8-days-a-week player who has everything.

That would turn ESO from arena into RvR, that's a dream right there.

Scot

Where I think the Op is off key is that's hardily the only reason players take a pop at games, but yes play them as intended even if it is just not to hit an end game wall too early.

kitarad

 I think you need to look at this from different perspectives.

One is that of a low skilled new player who hasn't had the time or opportunity to accumulate the experience or the gear to compete. The other is that of the veteran of the game who has invested quite a lot of time to get where they are.

The veteran who does not want to play with the newer players is as entitled to what they want and expect in the game. They should not have to deal with lesser skilled and poorly equipped players. Similarly the lower skilled poorly equipped player should not be put in a position of fighting the highly skilled and very well geared player either.

The way to separate these players is through instances and match making. Each plays with their kind. Unfortunately the lower skilled poorly equipped players expect to be able to compete with the players that have spent a lot more time and effort to get where they are and get the same rewards or they like the OP whine about it and complain that the developers are not helping them. (I garnered this from his other threads aside from the obvious insults thrown at players who play games dedicatedly)

You simply cannot expect them to play together and be happy with the outcome. Both sides are unhappy. Solution is to separate them.

Players who are highly skilled who wish to play and help lower skilled and poorly geared players are always free to do so. There is no such thing as equality and the sooner you realise this in games and life the less stressed your life becomes.

Amaranthar

kitarad said:

 I think you need to look at this from different perspectives.

One is that of a low skilled new player who hasn't had the time or opportunity to accumulate the experience or the gear to compete. The other is that of the veteran of the game who has invested quite a lot of time to get where they are.

The veteran who does not want to play with the newer players is as entitled to what they want and expect in the game. They should not have to deal with lesser skilled and poorly equipped players. Similarly the lower skilled poorly equipped player should not be put in a position of fighting the highly skilled and very well geared player either.

The way to separate these players is through instances and match making. Each plays with their kind. Unfortunately the lower skilled poorly equipped players expect to be able to compete with the players that have spent a lot more time and effort to get where they are and get the same rewards or they like the OP whine about it and complain that the developers are not helping them. (I garnered this from his other threads aside from the obvious insults thrown at players who play games dedicatedly)

You simply cannot expect them to play together and be happy with the outcome. Both sides are unhappy. Solution is to separate them.

Players who are highly skilled who wish to play and help lower skilled and poorly geared players are always free to do so. There is no such thing as equality and the sooner you realise this in games and life the less stressed your life becomes.

Depends on what kind of game you want. You're sticking with gamey system there, as opposed to a "Worldly" game where the world and player interaction is much more open. 

Amaranthar

Graveblade said:

OG_Solareus said:

This guy gets it lol

ESO's tuning is bad, Summit is right.

He is moaning because the way the systems were built, the way the game works, is there is massive disparity between character power making PvP pointless unless you have been playing for like a year and have every pot and gear piece or skill you need, know every effect, know the game inside and out, just to be able to hold your own sometimes.

Essentially it isn't about being good at the game in the mechanical sense at all really unless you are already god tier in gear and game knowledge, it is just about just having better stats. This is common to MMORPG's and many people see it as the norm, but I personally don't think it is actually a good thing to accept in the genre.

It should be more something like this giving a newbie a fighting chance:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(35 damage)---God(40 damage)>

Not:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(60 damage)-----------------------------------God(240 damage)>

You will see people in the MMORPG genre, and particularly those who's game you are criticising, rallying behind it defending it saying "just git gud". Those people are hurting the genre because what they are really doing is making excuses which allow devs to be lazy and create bad systems and bad balance.

A lot of MMORPG combat systems and balance are made like fake action systems. You are duped into thinking if you use your abilities right you will win. In reality, the actions you do matter very very little in many of these MMORPG's, and it is all about the gear and knowledge which takes 2 years of play to get... so a newbie or even someone playing for an average amount of time has zero chance.

Don't make excuses for bad systems people.

Yes. 
And it's not just:

"It should be more something like this giving a newbie a fighting chance:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(35 damage)---God(40 damage)>" 

"Not:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(60 damage)-----------------------------------God(240 damage)>"

There's also HPs, Armor, Healing, Spells, Specials (att. and def.), etc. 
It all compounds. 

Then Economics, Crafting, and any other game play also follows the same patter. 

This all divides the Players into subsections. It means that speed of advancement causes players to get the boot if they can't keep up. And that can turn into and endless cycle. 
It's bad for making friends, socializing, and Player interactions on any level, in the game as a whole. 

It also chops the game world up, so that your options are dictated by design instead of being whatever it is you choose to do. 

If you want the "same old same old", then go with the old.
If you want a change to a "Worldly" game full of long standing associations with other players of like mind, making new associations, plus explorations and an open world to play in, then you should want this change. 

The thing is that this Worldly concept means that the game will need to have content based on this. It's no longer "go here and get this", over and over again. It becomes "what do I want to explore, what might I find, and what will I make of it." 
A really good game (of this kind) will have a world full on interesting things to discover. 

OG_Solareus

Graveblade said:

OG_Solareus said:

This guy gets it lol

ESO's tuning is bad, Summit is right.

He is moaning because the way the systems were built, the way the game works, is there is massive disparity between character power making PvP pointless unless you have been playing for like a year and have every pot and gear piece or skill you need, know every effect, know the game inside and out, just to be able to hold your own sometimes.

Essentially it isn't about being good at the game in the mechanical sense at all really unless you are already god tier in gear and game knowledge, it is just about just having better stats. This is common to MMORPG's and many people see it as the norm, but I personally don't think it is actually a good thing to accept in the genre.

It should be more something like this giving a newbie a fighting chance:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(35 damage)---God(40 damage)>

Not:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(60 damage)-----------------------------------God(240 damage)>

You will see people in the MMORPG genre, and particularly those who's game you are criticising, rallying behind it defending it saying "just git gud". Those people are hurting the genre because what they are really doing is making excuses which allow devs to be lazy and create bad systems and bad balance.

A lot of MMORPG combat systems and balance are made like fake action systems. You are duped into thinking if you use your abilities right you will win. In reality, the actions you do matter very very little in many of these MMORPG's, and it is all about the gear and knowledge which takes 2 years of play to get... so a newbie or even someone playing for an average amount of time has zero chance.

Don't make excuses for bad systems people.

I played eso  for 2 months last year on my account I've had since launch. After playing Cyrodiil for a few days I did some research. My research showed that time has nothing do with the current state of the zone. Mechanics have nothing to with the zone and dmg algorithms have nothing to do with the state of the zone.

DigDuggy

It's not relegated to MMO players. We're in a phase in society where people want to be upset.  When I read the news, social media, gaming forums, and even listening to people, there are people who are upset.  In fact, it seems that people have a hair trigger, looking for reasons to get outraged, upset, and otherwise key up.  I have my ideas on why, but I don't wanna get this very process started on this thread.

KnightFalz

Graveblade said:

OG_Solareus said:

This guy gets it lol

ESO's tuning is bad, Summit is right.

He is moaning because the way the systems were built, the way the game works, is there is massive disparity between character power making PvP pointless unless you have been playing for like a year and have every pot and gear piece or skill you need, know every effect, know the game inside and out, just to be able to hold your own sometimes.

Essentially it isn't about being good at the game in the mechanical sense at all really unless you are already god tier in gear and game knowledge, it is just about just having better stats. This is common to MMORPG's and many people see it as the norm, but I personally don't think it is actually a good thing to accept in the genre.

It should be more something like this giving a newbie a fighting chance:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(35 damage)---God(40 damage)>

Not:

<Newbie(30 damage)---Middle(60 damage)-----------------------------------God(240 damage)>

You will see people in the MMORPG genre, and particularly those who's game you are criticising, rallying behind it defending it saying "just git gud". Those people are hurting the genre because what they are really doing is making excuses which allow devs to be lazy and create bad systems and bad balance.

A lot of MMORPG combat systems and balance are made like fake action systems. You are duped into thinking if you use your abilities right you will win. In reality, the actions you do matter very very little in many of these MMORPG's, and it is all about the gear and knowledge which takes 2 years of play to get... so a newbie or even someone playing for an average amount of time has zero chance.

Don't make excuses for bad systems people.

So you must build up your character power to be competitive with those that have built their character power? That seems reasonable when all must do so.

It's not just about better stats. As you pointed out yourself it is also about game knowledge and player skill, especially when opponents are similarly geared.

It seems more the system doesn't suit your tastes than it being actually flawed. I imagine there are games that provide alternate PvP experiences if preferred.

Kyleran

KnightFalz said:

Graveblade said:

OG_Solareus said:

This guy gets it lol

Don't make excuses for bad systems people.

So you must build up your character power to be competitive with those that have built their character power? That seems reasonable when all must do so.

It's not just about better stats. As you pointed out yourself it is also about game knowledge and player skill, especially when opponents are similarly geared.

It seems more the system doesn't suit your tastes than it being actually flawed. I imagine there are games that provide alternate PvP experiences if preferred.

Totally agree, since my first RPG, a simple  crawler called Dungeons of Daggaroth it's always been about progressing my character until it's a walking "god" in the game world, stomping into dust opponents who went from being fearsome to becoming fodder.

Lower level players in MMORPGS are like the NPCs in the starter zones, fodder for the highly experienced, well geared "godz" walking the land.

Difference is, newer players should align themselves with the higher tier folks who often can provide quite a leg up on helping others more quickly climb the ladder to the ranks of the highly exalted.

If gamers want to start a new game and be more or less on par with others they need to be playing different genres which aren't focused on progression as their core pillar, shooters or something like that 

MMORPGS have always been about playing ones "dues" and sucking it up until one "gets gud." 

Here's another reality I've long had to accept, no matter how good one might get, there will always be some (or on my case , many) players who will always play a level so much higher than anything I might hope to achieve.

The reasons for this vary, some play more, some spend more, many take the time to know more, treating the game as more of a science while I stick to a far more casual gaming experience.

You either accept how MMORPGs are designed or you play something else, which clearly many gamers do, which is fine in my book.

Keep your "fair and balanced" out of my MMORPGS.

Darkhawke

Kyleran said:

KnightFalz said:

Graveblade said:

OG_Solareus said:

This guy gets it lol

Don't make excuses for bad systems people.

So you must build up your character power to be competitive with those that have built their character power? That seems reasonable when all must do so.

It's not just about better stats. As you pointed out yourself it is also about game knowledge and player skill, especially when opponents are similarly geared.

It seems more the system doesn't suit your tastes than it being actually flawed. I imagine there are games that provide alternate PvP experiences if preferred.

Totally agree, since my first RPG, a simple  crawler called Dungeons of Daggaroth it's always been about progressing my character until it's a walking "god" in the game world, stomping into dust opponents who went from being fearsome to becoming fodder.

Lower level players in MMORPGS are like the NPCs in the starter zones, fodder for the highly experienced, well geared "godz" walking the land.

Difference is, newer players should align themselves with the higher tier folks who often can provide quite a leg up on helping others more quickly climb the ladder to the ranks of the highly exalted.

If gamers want to start a new game and be more or less on par with others they need to be playing different genres which aren't focused on progression as their core pillar, shooters or something like that 

MMORPGS have always been about playing ones "dues" and sucking it up until one "gets gud." 

Here's another reality I've long had to accept, no matter how good one might get, there will always be some (or on my case , many) players who will always play a level so much higher than anything I might hope to achieve.

The reasons for this vary, some play more, some spend more, many take the time to know more, treating the game as more of a science while I stick to a far more casual gaming experience.

You either accept how MMORPGs are designed or you play something else, which clearly many gamers do, which is fine in my book.

Keep your "fair and balanced" out of my MMORPGS.

100% this . I've been on both sides of the spectrum in different games , and was fully aware that in some I was going to "take my lumps", learning systems and whatnot, my approach was always with every death there is a lesson . And always had fun . 

Also been on the side of top tier player with a load of exp , and used that to help new players/friends/guild mates.

Both are rewarding and fun , I think the problem boils down to individuals who don't like losing at all , participation reward soccer generation.

As far as fair and balanced go the most beloved games in the genre ( particularly relative) to PvP/ RvR are all unbalanced as heck , and why they were fun. 

EVE, DAoC , AC Darktide,Shadowbane,UO SWG,Anarchy,  Vanilla Wow etc.. all unbalanced. All Fun as F .

Even relative to PVE  unbalanced was more fun IMO. It led to more diverse group make ups , many ways to approach encounters , imaginative and varied tactics . To many of today's games are everyone can do everything , linear group make up static encounters , which is really really boring ?. 

Give me the unexpected,  the unbalanced,  the pleasant and heartbreaking surprises.
  Much more fun imo.

Ralphie2449

Kyleran said:
Keep your "fair and balanced" out of my MMORPGS.

Translation: "I can only enjoy mmos when I can roflstomp someone who is incredibly undergeared and delude myself into thinking I am l33t skilled player deserving of the feeling of victory"

Funny anecdote, in WoW during Legion they created stat templates for pvp which they were by no means perfect but pvp was the most balanced it ever was because anyone could just join a battleground and compete.

Guess how much certain players complained because they could no longer one shot people who were undergeared because god forbid your delusions of greandeur are broken when everyone is on equal level. They might not have had skill but they did have time to farm gear which was the only thing actually letting them kill other players.

That is why many mmorpg players intensely FEAR casuals getting equal power, because once everyone has equal power, only differentiating factor is skill and you know you dont have that.

Also your system is a recipe for dead mmos, doesnt matter how l33t skilled you are in seriously hardcore pvp mmo, people will group up and slowly push everyone out of the game while telling each other how great they are for dominating the server by one shotting people left and right until they are the only ones left.

Hint: That is why hardocre pvp mmos are pretty much a dead genre.

Graveblade

KnightFalz said:

So you must build up your character power to be competitive with those that have built their character power? That seems reasonable when all must do so.

It's not just about better stats. As you pointed out yourself it is also about game knowledge and player skill, especially when opponents are similarly geared.

It seems more the system doesn't suit your tastes than it being actually flawed. I imagine there are games that provide alternate PvP experiences if preferred.

It seems you didn't read my post. I pointed out that the huge power disparity is the bad thing, and how things like game knowledge and skill matter very very little in comparison. That is what Summit was basically trying to say.

This isn't down to taste in my opinion. Needing 2 years of game time in order to be the slightest bit competitive in PvP is straight up bad game design. Having an edge because you have put in 2 years into the game is better, rather than making it so others can't compete.

There are also very silly things like having to have a bunch of pots and food and all sorts too in ESO I believe, just to be competitive. Again, this isn't good game design. No PvP player wants to have to do that crap, and before you say "I do!", you can go stand alone in your corner on that one because no one else does.

I can understand some of the difficulty... It is difficult to tune a system to work well both for PvE and PvP. The combat systems and tuning have to be built from the ground up while ensuring changes work for both. Unfortunately, a lot of devs have a bias one side or the other, so one side of the coin suffers.

Graveblade

Ralphie2449 said:

Kyleran said:
Keep your "fair and balanced" out of my MMORPGS.

Translation: "I can only enjoy mmos when I can roflstomp someone who is incredibly undergeared and delude myself into thinking I am l33t skilled player deserving of the feeling of victory"

Funny anecdote, in WoW during Legion they created stat templates for pvp which they were by no means perfect but pvp was the most balanced it ever was because anyone could just join a battleground and compete.

Guess how much certain players complained because they could no longer one shot people who were undergeared because god forbid your delusions of greandeur are broken when everyone is on equal level. They might not have had skill but they did have time to farm gear which was the only thing actually letting them kill other players.

That is why many mmorpg players intensely FEAR casuals getting equal power, because once everyone has equal power, only differentiating factor is skill and you know you dont have that.

Also your system is a recipe for dead mmos, doesnt matter how l33t skilled you are in seriously hardcore pvp mmo, people will group up and slowly push everyone out of the game while telling each other how great they are for dominating the server by one shotting people left and right until they are the only ones left.

Hint: That is why hardocre pvp mmos are pretty much a dead genre.

See why do so many devs seem to see things so black and white.

-Don't make it so long term players can totally roflstomp because their gear levels are insane.

-Don't make it so everyone is completelly balanced so a 2 years vet and newbie are on totally even footing.

Make it so the long term players just have a "bit of an edge".

cheyane

Gaming companies also look at who is spending the money. A long time player who has a lot invested is more likely to also spend on the game. They are basically supporting the player base that gives them the money. Look at Everquest 1 and 2 who do you think is keeping these dinosaurs alive. The ones that spend from my time on Everquest 2 guild with veteran players was the realisation that they buy every expansion and spend it on the collector's edition to get the perks.

No one's saying this is a good thing from the player's perspective but making a new player only having a slight disadvantage wouldn't cut it I'm afraid and they would lose their bread and butter crowd.

Never forget what companies are interested in. The earnings from the game. People who spend a large amount of time and energy getting up top want that glory and achievement to mean something to them. Take that away from them and they stop playing and the game goes poof.