We need Real Elders Scrolls Skyrim !!

delete5230

I've been watching many Youtubs, because I'm about to play Skyrim again, but need to understand my first Mage built. 

I realize ESO is NOTHING LIKE SKYRIM AT ALL...... Infact because of the poor representation of ESO, their taking their time with building one of the best all time rpg's ever. 

Come on, get on the ball !!
ESO, who the heck built this zone chopped up mess ?

I'm running late for an appointment, more later

Darkhawke

Kinda of agree, everytime  I fire up ESO, it just feels like a pretender and leads to me Installing Skyrim or Morrowind. To scratch that Elder Scrolls itch .

   ESO is a bastardized version of an Elder Scrolls game in so many ways .

gameplayingmonkey

Aren't ESO and mainline TES games made by different game studios?

Sovrath

I did think that Elder Scrolls Online would be more like the single player games. But after playing it a bit it's very clear that it is an "mmorpg" in that it is quest based.

The quest hubs are spread out more and they are more story driven in their design (each area has a "story" going on) but it still hearkens back to being a theme park mmorpg.

There is a multiplayer skyrim if you want other people though I don't know how good or complete it is.

Also, when your character is 60+ (or if you are feeling adventurous) there is my Skyrim mod you should try.

I'm told by people it's hard.

Kyleran

So you are watching lots of YouTube vids to get a leg up on your mage build?  What's next, a plethora of mods to the core gameplay?

Sounds like you are going down the easy mode path @delete5230.

Sovrath

gameplayingmonkey said:

Aren't ESO and mainline TES games made by different game studios?

Yes.

cameltosis

In my opinion, the Elder Scrolls games aren't actually that good. The combat is always awful, the games are usually a buggy mess, most of the stories are bland and since they introduced scaling with Oblivion, a lot of the worlds ended up feeling safe and boring too. Even the graphics have never been that good.

That said......

I feel like the Elder Scrolls basically sit in a sub-genre of their own. They are RPGs that aren't based around a linear story, which sets them apart from 90% of other RPGs. The ability to officially mod the game also sets it apart from most RPGs, extending it's lifespan for many gamers. The genuine freedom in terms of builds / quests / character also set it apart from most RPGs.

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

In my opinion, the Elder Scrolls games aren't actually that good. The combat is always awful, the games are usually a buggy mess, most of the stories are bland and since they introduced scaling with Oblivion, a lot of the worlds ended up feeling safe and boring too. Even the graphics have never been that good.

That said......

I feel like the Elder Scrolls basically sit in a sub-genre of their own. They are RPGs that aren't based around a linear story, which sets them apart from 90% of other RPGs. The ability to officially mod the game also sets it apart from most RPGs, extending it's lifespan for many gamers. The genuine freedom in terms of builds / quests / character also set it apart from most RPGs.

I think that's why I like them, they are predominantly about exploration and freedom. Or as my friend would say "a grand adventure."

I started the 1st of the two new "God of War" games and even though I recognize it's good, it's hard to continue. I don't really care about solely dragging myself through just a premade story.

It's also why I like the dark souls games as you make your way through but it's not like someone is holding your hand and you are being sent to a "!" area or anything. Elden Ring is particularly awesome in that regard. You can play soooo many hours and not even progress the main story. Like an Elder Scrolls game.

Actually, my friend who plays Elder Scrolls games (the only games he'll play) would sometimes do several playthroughs without touching the main story.

I do think, in my opinion, the combat in the Elder Scrolls games has gotten better. The Stories are a bit  generic but they have the elder scrolls lore behind them to make them interesting.

Asm0deus

cameltosis said:

In my opinion, the Elder Scrolls games aren't actually that good. ...snip....

...snip....

Skyrim etc are good BECAUSE the of the mods which kind of save the base games IMO.

Sovrath

Asm0deus said:

cameltosis said:

In my opinion, the Elder Scrolls games aren't actually that good. ...snip....

...snip....

Skyrim etc are good BECAUSE the of the mods which kind of save the base games IMO.

hmmm I would disagree.

The bones of the games are there. All mods do is twist the game mechanics towards one's liking and expand the encounters so the player can do more.

Obviously there are the "bug fixes" but as someone who played the original game over a LOT of times, after a bit the bug fixes by Bethesda were sufficient.

There were some CTD issues at the start but that seems to be over and done with now.

Asm0deus

Sovrath said:

....snip...

hmmm I would disagree.

The bones of the games are there. All mods do is twist the game mechanics towards one's liking and expand the encounters so the player can do more.

Obviously there are the "bug fixes" but as someone who played the original game over a LOT of times, after a bit the bug fixes by Bethesda were sufficient.

There were some CTD issues at the start but that seems to be over and done with now.

Its generally well known at this point the the elder scrolls games are buggy messes only saved by the modding community.

Frankly without mods we would not even be talking about elder scroll games or have this thread even as people would have moved on already and forgotten these games.

Sovrath

Asm0deus said:

Sovrath said:

....snip...

hmmm I would disagree.

The bones of the games are there. All mods do is twist the game mechanics towards one's liking and expand the encounters so the player can do more.

Obviously there are the "bug fixes" but as someone who played the original game over a LOT of times, after a bit the bug fixes by Bethesda were sufficient.

There were some CTD issues at the start but that seems to be over and done with now.

Its generally well known at this point the the elder scrolls games are buggy messes only saved by the modding community.

Frankly without mods we would not even be talking about elder scroll games or have this thread even as people would have moved on already and forgotten these games.

That's definitely an opinion but it seems like it comes from "somewhere else." Not sure what.

My friend played through Skyrim many time with absolutely no mods. Nothing bad happened ever.

I'm not saying there aren't issues, both with game play or "bugs" but I feel that there is a contingent of vocal players who just say this for "whatever reasons."

I've only had two main CTD in Vanilla Skyrim and both issues are now fixed.

You aren't hit into the heavens if a giant hits you nor do we see Mammoth's dropping from the sky anymore.

And again, I disagree in that the game play of elders scrolls games IS the draw. The freedom to go wherever and to discover and to make your character as you like.

Mods do keep the game in the players' minds as they continue/add on the world.

They allow for different armor and weapon sets and they allow for different flavors of game play that cater to specific player tastes.

but for what they are, the games are solid.

Asm0deus

Sovrath said:

...snip...

That's definitely an opinion but it seems like it comes from "somewhere else." Not sure what.

My friend played through Skyrim many time with absolutely no mods. Nothing bad happened ever.
....snip...

Not sure what you mean by, "seems like it comes from "somewhere else.""   My opinion comes from myself, from my experience playing the games, not just skyrim, etc etc.

I actually have the boxes for most of them.

That said there is nothing wrong with liking the base game as is and I am not saying there is .

.....HOWEVER....

.... this whole series is KNOWN for its modding community, in the same vein that minecraft is also known for such, and trying to downplay the excellent work of it's many members and trying to deny that its modding community is what makes these games great is disingenuous to say the least.

I mean its running gag that Bethesda releases game and modders fix em for a reason.

Saying that skyrim runs fine with bethesda fixes 12 years after is...kind of a I certainly hope so....kind of thing lol

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sovrath

Asm0deus said:

Sovrath said:

...snip...

That's definitely an opinion but it seems like it comes from "somewhere else." Not sure what.

My friend played through Skyrim many time with absolutely no mods. Nothing bad happened ever.
....snip...

Not sure what you mean by, "seems like it comes from "somewhere else.""   My opinion comes from myself, from my experience playing the games, not just skyrim, etc etc.

lol sorry I didn't say that in the best way. What I should have said "that's an opinion but I'm not sure what  is informing that opinion. Is it true that "most" players say that, are they really correct, is it from your own experience, etc.

My bad.

Asm0deus

No worries, and Like i said it perfectly fine playing the base game and enjoying it, as long as you have fun is what counts in gaming IMO.

I just feel the games have lots more longevity due to all the mods.

I keep looking back here and hoping they would all get completed!

https://beyondskyrim.org/

https://tesrskywind.com/

https://skyblivion.com/

Sovrath

Asm0deus said:

No worries, and Like i said it perfectly fine playing the base game and enjoying it, as long as you have fun is what counts in gaming IMO.

I just feel the games have lots more longevity due to all the mods.

I keep looking back here and hoping they would all get completed!

https://beyondskyrim.org/

https://tesrskywind.com/

https://skyblivion.com/

Oh, I agree that mods lend to the longevity. My mod, which has well over 100 individual maps, and it took me, for the most part working on and off (mostly on in the last few years of the project) a little over 8 years.

The Monastery part took 6 months where I thought it would take a month.

Their project is massive and it's all separate volunteers.

I can only imagine that it can become a logistical nightmare. Especially when you have multiple volunteers who inevitably bow out because of "personal reasons."

I can see this particular project running hot and cold at any one time. And "hopefully" they will finish it.

I should add that I don't think Skyrim is so "broke" as others make it out to be.

Graveblade

Skyrim and former games were basically sandbox rpg's.

The MMORPG though is pretty much a generic themepark, mostly everything is on rails.

Totally different types of games... I do think the MMORPG shouldn't have been a themepark. The problem with designing it as so is it then loses many of the things that made The Elder Scrolls series good in the first place.

Imo, it lost the feeling of freedom and personal customisability with its design, and the feeling of a large open world to explore at your own will. This is what happens when you start adding lots of systems that force the player to choose a particular path. They become more and more linear, less and less free, and much more boring and watered down.

cameltosis

Graveblade said:

Skyrim and former games were basically sandbox rpg's.

No, they were not, they were themeparks.

The difference you are thinking of is linear vs non-linear. TES were all non-linear, but the content and systems themselves were still primarily themepark. Nothing wrong with that ofc, there are still big benefits to being non-linear, but we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking they were sandboxes.

Amaranthar

cameltosis said:

Graveblade said:

Skyrim and former games were basically sandbox rpg's.

No, they were not, they were themeparks.

The difference you are thinking of is linear vs non-linear. TES were all non-linear, but the content and systems themselves were still primarily themepark. Nothing wrong with that ofc, there are still big benefits to being non-linear, but we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking they were sandboxes.

There is still so much potential for advancing Sandbox design and game play. 
There's lots of issues to handle, though, depending on how much Sandbox is in a game. 

Graveblade

cameltosis said:

Graveblade said:

Skyrim and former games were basically sandbox rpg's.

No, they were not, they were themeparks.

The difference you are thinking of is linear vs non-linear. TES were all non-linear, but the content and systems themselves were still primarily themepark. Nothing wrong with that ofc, there are still big benefits to being non-linear, but we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking they were sandboxes.

I said "basically" for a reason. You are forgiven if not a native English speaker, perhaps you misunderstood that this doesn't mean I'm saying they actually are. What I mean by that is they are close to being.

I agree if you want a strict definition. It is basically an open world rpg as opposed to a true sandbox. Like say Elden Ring is.

Most people don't use a strict definition of sandbox though. You can see people very commonly calling Morrowind a sandbox. The reason isn't so much just because it is non-linear, but also because the skill systems are very open ended too. Often people call non-linear rpg's, even if it has objectives, a sandbox, if the systems are generally very open ended.

No Mans Sky for example is considered a sandbox game, yet there is a main objective. BDO is considered a sandbox but there are main storyline quests to follow too.

Scot

...I can feel another thread about the difference between themepark and sandbox coming on.

Graveblade

Scot said:

...I can feel another thread about the difference between themepark and sandbox coming on.

Let me solve it now then... :P

Note the words "great degree", "usually", "may", "more often". People who think the term is black and white are incorrect. A bit of it is down to interpretation.

Someone posting purely to argue semantics and definitions just has a stick up their ass.

Personally I don't actually care for arguing semantics so I have no intention of carrying this on from here.

Wiki:

"A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective, and are sometimes referred to as non-games or software toys. More often, sandbox games result from these creative elements being incorporated into other genres and allowing for emergent gameplay. Sandbox games are often associated with an open world concept which gives the players freedom of movement and progression in the game's world. The term "sandbox" derives from the nature of a sandbox that lets children create nearly anything they want within it."

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

Graveblade said:

Skyrim and former games were basically sandbox rpg's.

No, they were not, they were themeparks.

The difference you are thinking of is linear vs non-linear. TES were all non-linear, but the content and systems themselves were still primarily themepark. Nothing wrong with that ofc, there are still big benefits to being non-linear, but we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking they were sandboxes.

Except people can't really agree on what a Sandbox is.

I remember a thread here that ran for pages and pages.

I think in this case, when people say they are a "sandbox" they are referring to the multiple choices, the creation of an adventure and character to their tastes.

The ability to do certain things or not do certain things. It's not just about building structures.

Kyleran

Graveblade said:

Scot said:

...I can feel another thread about the difference between themepark and sandbox coming on.

Let me solve it now then... :P

Note the words "great degree", "usually", "may", "more often". People who think the term is black and white are incorrect. A bit of it is down to interpretation.

Someone posting purely to argue semantics and definitions just has a stick up their ass.

Personally I don't actually care for arguing semantics so I have no intention of carrying this on from here.

Wiki:

"A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective, and are sometimes referred to as non-games or software toys. More often, sandbox games result from these creative elements being incorporated into other genres and allowing for emergent gameplay. Sandbox games are often associated with an open world concept which gives the players freedom of movement and progression in the game's world. The term "sandbox" derives from the nature of a sandbox that lets children create nearly anything they want within it."

Guess Wikipedia hasn't incorporated my recommended changes.... yet.

Sovrath

Graveblade said:

Scot said:

...I can feel another thread about the difference between themepark and sandbox coming on.

Let me solve it now then... :P

Note the words "great degree", "usually", "may", "more often". People who think the term is black and white are incorrect. A bit of it is down to interpretation.

Someone posting purely to argue semantics and definitions just has a stick up their ass.

Personally I don't actually care for arguing semantics so I have no intention of carrying this on from here.

Wiki:

"A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective, and are sometimes referred to as non-games or software toys. More often, sandbox games result from these creative elements being incorporated into other genres and allowing for emergent gameplay. Sandbox games are often associated with an open world concept which gives the players freedom of movement and progression in the game's world. The term "sandbox" derives from the nature of a sandbox that lets children create nearly anything they want within it."

While "I" would agree with the Wikipedia article I'm sure that not only are there people who wouldn't, they could probably rewrite that definition if they wanted to.

Nilden

I don't think you can make an Elder Scrolls MMO without it being watered down, MMOified, and losing what the single player game has that makes it special. They did what they could and sure the game is doing good but it's not my cup of tea. They really had their job cut out for them with this too though. I don't envy trying to make Elder Scrolls into a MMO.

I love the Elder Scrolls games, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim are awesome. They just don't, how should I put it, keep their integrity or the experience once you make it a MMORPG. ESO doesn't feel like Elder Scrolls to me it feels more like WoW wearing an Elder Scrolls skin suit or watered down Elder Scrolls lite to accommodate for making it a MMO. I'd just rather play the single player games.

It would be cool if they made Skyrim with something like 4 player co-op. 

I would also be down for a single player game in the Warcraft world made like Elder Scrolls games.