"Raise Archery to 60 70 80 90 100, it unlocks skills at each level as it gains experience. Exactly as a class base system does. "
Just to nitpick, Ryzom doesn't do that. If you level a skill, it only gives you more credits to use to tailor your ablities. You do not gain any new abilities as you level up, only more credits to spend when building your actions.
Skills do not have built-in abilities. You have to create them yourself. We could both be level 100 in a skill, and have radically different abilities.
The more you talk about Ryzom the more inclined I am to say it sounds like the most freeform skill based game.
Which is probably one contributing factor to the game's lack of success.
It's been my observation that more often than not gamers prefer structured systems and game loops in MMORPGs, notice how popular online build sites are for games like POE or ESO.
That's an interesting observation. I use build sites or programs for pretty much every game I play.
Just to name a few. The City of Heroes, NWN2 and Guild Wars ones I spent many hours in just making builds. I really love it when the game lets you do this in-game with a build planner. I've actually secretly wished for a system like what Planetside 2 has with it's virtual test zone where you can try out any loadout, any gun, etc in other games. It would be awesome if these games had build creation and testing areas built right into the games. Some do to a certain extent and it's a feature I enjoy. Love me some target dummies too.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Thus any skill based game can and will have classes made from those skills.
Are there tons of games that have hard locked classes? Yes.
Are there games where you can change classes or combine classes? Absolutely.
In general you could consider any skill based game free form class construction. Even games with hard locked classes are using skills to form those classes. The point being they are not fundamentally different systems. All classes are made up of a set of skills. The only fundamental difference is how much freedom you have in choosing those skills. From hard locked classes like Everquest to complete freedom in skill selection like in Skyrim or Ultima Online.
As seen here even one of the most skill based games still makes classes with those skills:
Yes, but you still have the options to go any way you want. Those Class-like Skills are really more of a semi-prebuilt Class, but you can still build your own. (I could be wrong about all of this, since there have been changes since I last played UO.) The current system in UO is overdone, in my opinion. I thought it was much better about 10 years ago. But it's still good and better than anything else, IMO.
UO has a lot of Skills that do multiple things and act as buffs to some basic Skills. For example, a Swordsman will want to build up Tactics and Anatomy to add to their damage. The Anatomy Skill also adds to Heal Skill effects that you'll want unless you take Magery. You can add Magery in order to cast instant Heals (Healing skill takes a few seconds to take affect while you fight on). You can also add Poisoning Skill, and if you want also take on Alchemy Skill to make your own potions where the Skill level affects how good those potions are (including Poison).
But you can't build all of those Skills at high levels on one Character. And you might want other Skills. It's all pretty open. While Skills go to a max of 120, you don't have to build them that high and still be effective. That allows you to add more Skills to your repertoire for more options.
I once had a Character whose only maxed out Skill was Alchemy, but had high Skill in Swords, Tactics, Hide, and Stealth; somewhat lower Skill in Anatomy, Healing, and Magery. That Character was very effective even in PvP. . (But back then, there was no Poison Skill. Anyone could use it, and the Alchemy Skill boosted the poison effects like the Poison Skill does now.)
And I used a very fast weapon but also carried a broadsword for different uses (certain MOBs).
p.s. On paper the Character I outlined here wasn't up to par with a pure Warrior type, maxed out with damage and healing. But in practice, while I was pretty busy hitting abilities (spells, potions bandages, switching out poisoned weapons, at the right time (UO was a lot about timing) I never lost in PvP, even against 2 skilled players. I did have to run from larger groups usually, of course. But a few times I at least drove away 3 Skilled players. PvE was more fun too, not as busy but still more so than normal.
I played for a while on the first one Excelsior and there was no skill cap so you could eventually max out every skill. It was really fun for like 2-3 months until I found out to do the serious end game stuff you would need to buy relayers for real money. https://www.uoex.net/wiki/Relayer
I can't wait until they make something like UO only in a modern engine like Unreal 5 or Unity. Eventually I bet some passion project will do it, much like the Everquest passion projects.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a class. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a class. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a class. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Even if that were a god Skill based system, people are going to consider the rest of the game design too. There's much more to a good game than just Skill or Class based.
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
New world skills system is nowhere near as awesome as UO. UO skill system was top tier that other games never were able to duplicate. Just low quality imitations.
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
"switches attributes (at a cost) ..."
Is this instantaneous? Or do you have to actually do something? If so, then it's just a class system where you can switch classes. Can you max all attributes? Or do you have to pick a subset of them at any one time?
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Give me a break, lol. I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do. Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way. It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Give me a break, lol. I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do. Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way. It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Perfect, so I won't have your negative attitude in my games
What screams "gamey" to me is characters stuck in specific classes with a rigid skill system where all warrior tanks basically use the same skills. That's gamey. Being able to be whatever you want, be it an great sword wielding archer or a tanky mage, screams "immersion" to me, as in able to be whatever you've seen in popular fantasy franchises... Gandalf able to cast spells yet also able to hold his own with a sword...
To me, the "be what you want and still be useful" approach of UO and NW will beat the rigid class systems of EQ/WoW clones anytime of the day.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Give me a break, lol. I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do. Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way. It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Perfect, so I won't have your negative attitude in my games
What screams "gamey" to me is characters stuck in specific classes with a rigid skill system where all warrior tanks basically use the same skills. That's gamey. Being able to be whatever you want, be it an great sword wielding archer or a tanky mage, screams "immersion" to me, as in able to be whatever you've seen in popular fantasy franchises... Gandalf able to cast spells yet also able to hold his own with a sword...
To me, the "be what you want and still be useful" approach of UO and NW will beat the rigid class systems of EQ/WoW clones anytime of the day.
Putting Ultima Online system and New Worlds system in same category is about as disingenuous and silly comparison I have ever seen.
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Give me a break, lol. I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do. Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way. It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Perfect, so I won't have your negative attitude in my games
What screams "gamey" to me is characters stuck in specific classes with a rigid skill system where all warrior tanks basically use the same skills. That's gamey. Being able to be whatever you want, be it an great sword wielding archer or a tanky mage, screams "immersion" to me, as in able to be whatever you've seen in popular fantasy franchises... Gandalf able to cast spells yet also able to hold his own with a sword...
To me, the "be what you want and still be useful" approach of UO and NW will beat the rigid class systems of EQ/WoW clones anytime of the day.
I'm a big believer in UO's system. But you couldn't change completely any time you wanted. You had to earn the new skills by using them. That's immersive and realistic.
UO had a neat system where each Skill was set automatically to go up, but you could change them by locking them where they are, or set them to go down in the case that you're at max total Skill Points and you want to give up one Skill to raise another. So your new Skill effectively robbed the old Skill of points over time. You still had the old Skill to use, even as it went slowly down. Realistic. Immersive in a Worldly design way.
That's not the same as just switching everything out. What's next, changing race? Orc one day, Centaur the next, and then Pixie the next?
You're right about not seeing me in gamey games, though. You can have them, I'm good with that.
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Give me a break, lol. I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do. Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way. It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Perfect, so I won't have your negative attitude in my games
What screams "gamey" to me is characters stuck in specific classes with a rigid skill system where all warrior tanks basically use the same skills. That's gamey. Being able to be whatever you want, be it an great sword wielding archer or a tanky mage, screams "immersion" to me, as in able to be whatever you've seen in popular fantasy franchises... Gandalf able to cast spells yet also able to hold his own with a sword...
To me, the "be what you want and still be useful" approach of UO and NW will beat the rigid class systems of EQ/WoW clones anytime of the day.
Putting Ultima Online system and New Worlds system in same category is about as disingenuous and silly comparison I have ever seen.
They are nothing alike in almost every way.
They are in the same "no class, just skills" category. I never said they are the same games.
I would kill for a real UO2 in 3D with graphics on par with NW but with all the game mechanics of UO.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Give me a break, lol. I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do. Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way. It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Perfect, so I won't have your negative attitude in my games
What screams "gamey" to me is characters stuck in specific classes with a rigid skill system where all warrior tanks basically use the same skills. That's gamey. Being able to be whatever you want, be it an great sword wielding archer or a tanky mage, screams "immersion" to me, as in able to be whatever you've seen in popular fantasy franchises... Gandalf able to cast spells yet also able to hold his own with a sword...
To me, the "be what you want and still be useful" approach of UO and NW will beat the rigid class systems of EQ/WoW clones anytime of the day.
I'm a big believer in UO's system. But you couldn't change completely any time you wanted. You had to earn the new skills by using them. That's immersive and realistic.
UO had a neat system where each Skill was set automatically to go up, but you could change them by locking them where they are, or set them to go down in the case that you're at max total Skill Points and you want to give up one Skill to raise another. So your new Skill effectively robbed the old Skill of points over time. You still had the old Skill to use, even as it went slowly down. Realistic. Immersive in a Worldly design way.
That's not the same as just switching everything out. What's next, changing race? Orc one day, Centaur the next, and then Pixie the next?
You're right about not seeing me in gamey games, though. You can have them, I'm good with that.
How can a Modern MMO hold up in gameplay complexity with and old school MMO? They have been taking out complexity from MMOs since WOW came out. I will note some exceptions, I have seen more complex crafting and economy in the likes of BDO. Also some newer MMOs have systems the old ones didn't have like AoC's day and night mechanic.
Uh this game exists. The one based on skills you pick and not a clasIns. It's called New World. Ever play it? Yeah let me know when in that game you pick your class. I'll wait. Oh and if you're not playing it then maybe having a skill based MMO isn't the silver bullet that's going to fix all that's wrong with MMOs. Just a thought.
Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
As soon as you pick up your weapon and slot your abilities, you've picked your "class."
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
Sounds like a crappy "Skill" system to me.
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon. That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Give me a break, lol. I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do. Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way. It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Perfect, so I won't have your negative attitude in my games
What screams "gamey" to me is characters stuck in specific classes with a rigid skill system where all warrior tanks basically use the same skills. That's gamey. Being able to be whatever you want, be it an great sword wielding archer or a tanky mage, screams "immersion" to me, as in able to be whatever you've seen in popular fantasy franchises... Gandalf able to cast spells yet also able to hold his own with a sword...
To me, the "be what you want and still be useful" approach of UO and NW will beat the rigid class systems of EQ/WoW clones anytime of the day.
Putting Ultima Online system and New Worlds system in same category is about as disingenuous and silly comparison I have ever seen.
They are nothing alike in almost every way.
They are in the same "no class, just skills" category. I never said they are the same games.
I would kill for a real UO2 in 3D with graphics on par with NW but with all the game mechanics of UO.
Is not even remotely close or the same, but first off there are classes in both. Matter a fact in other threads you speak about your TANK on this very forum, when did Tank become not a class?. Also in Ultima a player has many many skills/weapons/spells to pull from in there build well over 200 . Most UO builds are running with a couple dozen hot keyed.
In NW you are very restricted at any given moment in combat to I think 6 or 12.
Also the way that Crafting/ CombatSkills/ Spells/and Gathering S kills synthesis in combat in UO is quite unique .
NW system in comparison is very shallow and bland .
Ill write more later , got some stuff to take care of .
Tank is a role, not a class. In all class based games, several classes can fulfill the tank role.
And no, there are no classes in neither UO nor NW. If you pretend there are, then you either never played those games or don't have the start of an idea of what you are talking about.
Don't let your NW hatred make you talk bullshit.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Tank is a role, not a class. In all class based games, several classes can fulfill the tank role.
And no, there are no classes in neither UO nor NW. If you pretend there are, then you either never played those games or don't have the start of an idea of what you are talking about.
Don't let your NW hatred make you talk bullshit.
Oh guess none of this exists since there were no classes in UO:
Warrior - pure warrior that leaves little to chance and everything else to their weapons, can provide bandage healing.
Paladin - heroic warrior that relies on Chivalry, positive Karma and weaponry, can provide some healing.
Samurai - warrior heavily dependent on the Virtue of Honor, a weapon and Bushido.
Ninja - shadowy assassin that relies on the element of surprise, Stealth and Hiding.
Mage - arcane practitioner that focuses their power through Magery spells making them versatile for both fighting healing.
Necromancer - practitioner of the dark magic arts that employs Necromancy.
Two new character classes were added with Age of Shadows. The new Paladin character class consists mainly of the new Chivalry skill. If used in conjunction with a "Book of Chivalry", a Paladin using the skill can perform powerful techniques, such as curing poison in battle, or teleporting to a new location. These types of magical abilities were previously restricted to mages. In order to perform Chivalry techniques, a Paladin must tithe gold to a shrine in exchange for "tithing points".
The new Necromancer character class was introduced along with 16 Necromancy spells. Necromancy requires a separate group of reagents: Bat Wing, Grave Dust, Daemon Blood, Nox Crystal, and Pig Iron.
Samurai Empire
Samurai Empire is the sixth expansion to the Ultima OnlineMMORPG, featuring an oriental-themed environment, allowing players to play archetypical characters the Samurai and Ninja. It also added a new area named the Tokuno Islands. It was developed and published by Electronic Arts and released on November 2, 2004.
Tank is a role, not a class. In all class based games, several classes can fulfill the tank role.
And no, there are no classes in neither UO nor NW. If you pretend there are, then you either never played those games or don't have the start of an idea of what you are talking about.
Don't let your NW hatred make you talk bullshit.
Don't be playing weak semantics to make a point , it's bleeding obvious we have Tank classes/DPSclasses/Healer classes/ Support classes .
We all know what a Tank is , you splitting silly hairs does not change that. I do not hate anything , but one could say "Dont let your NW White Knighting make you talk bullshit."
UO had a neat system where each Skill was set automatically to go up, but you could change them by locking them where they are, or set them to go down in the case that you're at max total Skill Points and you want to give up one Skill to raise another. So your new Skill effectively robbed the old Skill of points over time. You still had the old Skill to use, even as it went slowly down. Realistic. Immersive in a Worldly design way.
If you can only pick a subset of skills at any one time, then you are effectively creating a class.
If you can max out all skills at the same time, then you have a fully open skill-based system where you do not have to pick which subset of skills to use. Ryzom is like that.
Tank is a role, not a class. In all class based games, several classes can fulfill the tank role.
And no, there are no classes in neither UO nor NW. If you pretend there are, then you either never played those games or don't have the start of an idea of what you are talking about.
Don't let your NW hatred make you talk bullshit.
Oh guess none of this exists since there were no classes in UO:
Warrior - pure warrior that leaves little to chance and everything else to their weapons, can provide bandage healing.
Paladin - heroic warrior that relies on Chivalry, positive Karma and weaponry, can provide some healing.
Samurai - warrior heavily dependent on the Virtue of Honor, a weapon and Bushido.
Ninja - shadowy assassin that relies on the element of surprise, Stealth and Hiding.
Mage - arcane practitioner that focuses their power through Magery spells making them versatile for both fighting healing.
Necromancer - practitioner of the dark magic arts that employs Necromancy.
Two new character classes were added with Age of Shadows. The new Paladin character class consists mainly of the new Chivalry skill. If used in conjunction with a "Book of Chivalry", a Paladin using the skill can perform powerful techniques, such as curing poison in battle, or teleporting to a new location. These types of magical abilities were previously restricted to mages. In order to perform Chivalry techniques, a Paladin must tithe gold to a shrine in exchange for "tithing points".
The new Necromancer character class was introduced along with 16 Necromancy spells. Necromancy requires a separate group of reagents: Bat Wing, Grave Dust, Daemon Blood, Nox Crystal, and Pig Iron.
Samurai Empire
Samurai Empire is the sixth expansion to the Ultima OnlineMMORPG, featuring an oriental-themed environment, allowing players to play archetypical characters the Samurai and Ninja. It also added a new area named the Tokuno Islands. It was developed and published by Electronic Arts and released on November 2, 2004.
Those are templates, not real classes. You aren't stuck into those specific classes, those are more like guidelines for noobs. If you want, in UO, you can be (e.g.) a necromantic paladin samurai !
Oh, and one more on /ignore... because indeed, I hate arguing on semantics (not you Nilden). If tank is a class, why can the warrior, death knight, druid, monk and Demon Hunter CLASSES be TANKS in WoW for instance ? End of discussion.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
UO had a neat system where each Skill was set automatically to go up, but you could change them by locking them where they are, or set them to go down in the case that you're at max total Skill Points and you want to give up one Skill to raise another. So your new Skill effectively robbed the old Skill of points over time. You still had the old Skill to use, even as it went slowly down. Realistic. Immersive in a Worldly design way.
If you can only pick a subset of skills at any one time, then you are effectively creating a class.
If you can max out all skills at the same time, then you have a fully open skill-based system where you do not have to pick which subset of skills to use. Ryzom is like that.
Personally I think the max out all skills is better from a realistic point of view. It's not like I am going to forget being a master miner and blacksmith because I want to chop some wood and learn carpentry.
The Excelsior UO private shard I played on let you learn all skills and I found it much better than on live when I was making a mage, a combat character and a crafter.
I would also agree with making a skill template being effectively creating a class.
There are other ways to balance having all the skills like if you want to cast spells you would need to wear a robe and not armor or it would interfere with your spells and mana regen. Trade off type stuff like dual wielding two swords will improve your damage but you wouldn't get the armor bonus of a shield. etc.
You seem to know a lot about Ryzom I'm curious if they have some kind of balancing system for being able to learn all the skills?
Most other games I can think of limit you to a maximum skill selection. Secret World is 14 with 7 active 7 passive. UO is limited on the live servers. Guild Wars lets you pick 8. Project Gorgon lets you pick 2 combat skills.
I wonder just how many games let you learn all the skills? Seems like a pretty small list, even for games where you level up skills...
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Tank is a role, not a class. In all class based games, several classes can fulfill the tank role.
And no, there are no classes in neither UO nor NW. If you pretend there are, then you either never played those games or don't have the start of an idea of what you are talking about.
Don't let your NW hatred make you talk bullshit.
Oh guess none of this exists since there were no classes in UO:
Warrior - pure warrior that leaves little to chance and everything else to their weapons, can provide bandage healing.
Paladin - heroic warrior that relies on Chivalry, positive Karma and weaponry, can provide some healing.
Samurai - warrior heavily dependent on the Virtue of Honor, a weapon and Bushido.
Ninja - shadowy assassin that relies on the element of surprise, Stealth and Hiding.
Mage - arcane practitioner that focuses their power through Magery spells making them versatile for both fighting healing.
Necromancer - practitioner of the dark magic arts that employs Necromancy.
Two new character classes were added with Age of Shadows. The new Paladin character class consists mainly of the new Chivalry skill. If used in conjunction with a "Book of Chivalry", a Paladin using the skill can perform powerful techniques, such as curing poison in battle, or teleporting to a new location. These types of magical abilities were previously restricted to mages. In order to perform Chivalry techniques, a Paladin must tithe gold to a shrine in exchange for "tithing points".
The new Necromancer character class was introduced along with 16 Necromancy spells. Necromancy requires a separate group of reagents: Bat Wing, Grave Dust, Daemon Blood, Nox Crystal, and Pig Iron.
Samurai Empire
Samurai Empire is the sixth expansion to the Ultima OnlineMMORPG, featuring an oriental-themed environment, allowing players to play archetypical characters the Samurai and Ninja. It also added a new area named the Tokuno Islands. It was developed and published by Electronic Arts and released on November 2, 2004.
Those are templates, not real classes. You aren't stuck into those specific classes, those are more like guidelines for noobs. If you want, in UO, you can be (e.g.) a necromantic paladin samurai !
Oh, and one more on /ignore... because indeed, I hate arguing on semantics (not you Nilden). If tank is a class, why can the warrior, death knight, druid, monk and Demon Hunter CLASSES be TANKS in WoW for instance ? End of discussion.
Primary Tank Classes. There are five combinations of class and spec which can truly be considered main tanks: Protection Warrior, Guardian Druid, Protection Paladin, Brewmaster Monk, and Blood Death Knight .
Direct from WoW, but thx for your help in reinforcing the fact that there are Tank Classes .
And yes , UO can have classes ( which your comment was..
" there are NO classes in UO or NW " that is obviously false .We all know you can build hybrids , but we also all know there are classes.But no one else made the incorrect statement that "there are no classes in UO or NW" you made that statement and why it's gone this far.
Comments
Project Gorgon has one:
https://www.gorgonexplorer.com/
City of Heroes:
https://midsreborn.com/
Neverwinter Nights 2:
https://nwn2db.com/
Path of Exile has multiple builders and even includes a basic one on it's own website:
https://poeplanner.com/
Guild Wars 1 and 2 have great build sites:
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/PvX_wiki
Just to name a few. The City of Heroes, NWN2 and Guild Wars ones I spent many hours in just making builds. I really love it when the game lets you do this in-game with a build planner. I've actually secretly wished for a system like what Planetside 2 has with it's virtual test zone where you can try out any loadout, any gun, etc in other games. It would be awesome if these games had build creation and testing areas built right into the games. Some do to a certain extent and it's a feature I enjoy. Love me some target dummies too.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/(I could be wrong about all of this, since there have been changes since I last played UO.)
The current system in UO is overdone, in my opinion. I thought it was much better about 10 years ago. But it's still good and better than anything else, IMO.
UO has a lot of Skills that do multiple things and act as buffs to some basic Skills.
For example, a Swordsman will want to build up Tactics and Anatomy to add to their damage.
The Anatomy Skill also adds to Heal Skill effects that you'll want unless you take Magery.
You can add Magery in order to cast instant Heals (Healing skill takes a few seconds to take affect while you fight on).
You can also add Poisoning Skill, and if you want also take on Alchemy Skill to make your own potions where the Skill level affects how good those potions are (including Poison).
But you can't build all of those Skills at high levels on one Character.
And you might want other Skills. It's all pretty open.
While Skills go to a max of 120, you don't have to build them that high and still be effective. That allows you to add more Skills to your repertoire for more options.
I once had a Character whose only maxed out Skill was Alchemy, but had high Skill in Swords, Tactics, Hide, and Stealth; somewhat lower Skill in Anatomy, Healing, and Magery.
That Character was very effective even in PvP.
. (But back then, there was no Poison Skill. Anyone could use it, and the Alchemy Skill boosted the poison effects like the Poison Skill does now.)
And I used a very fast weapon but also carried a broadsword for different uses (certain MOBs).
For the OP, here's a link to some info...
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/
p.s. On paper the Character I outlined here wasn't up to par with a pure Warrior type, maxed out with damage and healing.
But in practice, while I was pretty busy hitting abilities (spells, potions bandages, switching out poisoned weapons, at the right time (UO was a lot about timing) I never lost in PvP, even against 2 skilled players. I did have to run from larger groups usually, of course. But a few times I at least drove away 3 Skilled players.
PvE was more fun too, not as busy but still more so than normal.
Once upon a time....
Not only could you play the retail version but there are tons of private shards.
https://gtop100.com/topsites/Ultima-Online
I played for a while on the first one Excelsior and there was no skill cap so you could eventually max out every skill. It was really fun for like 2-3 months until I found out to do the serious end game stuff you would need to buy relayers for real money. https://www.uoex.net/wiki/Relayer
I can't wait until they make something like UO only in a modern engine like Unreal 5 or Unity. Eventually I bet some passion project will do it, much like the Everquest passion projects.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Can I pick all the skills in New World? Or just a subset, or certain class, of skills?
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
The actual skills for each weapon are just a matter of how it will function.
My main carries a fire staff and blunderbuss, has to slot intelligence at a over 300 and he's a true fire mage in every sense.
Now if he picks up a Great Sword and Great Axe, he switches his attributes (at a cost) to either 300 Str or some combination of Str/Dex and wa lah, he's a melee DPS ....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....
Some weapon combos define a "role", indeed most tanks use sword and shield, but you can be a tank without that, I've seen my guildies tank mutations with greatsword and spear. And sword and shield, when specced properly, can be a very efficient damage weapon.
That's what all the classless systems have in common, be it UO or NW: don't let you be limited by the limits of your imagination.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
I want my Characters to be something of themselves, identifiable for what they can do.
Not "whatever" on any given day.
Allowing Class switching just turns me off in a big way.
It ruins immersion in a world and screams "gamey."
Once upon a time....
Perfect, so I won't have your negative attitude in my games
What screams "gamey" to me is characters stuck in specific classes with a rigid skill system where all warrior tanks basically use the same skills. That's gamey. Being able to be whatever you want, be it an great sword wielding archer or a tanky mage, screams "immersion" to me, as in able to be whatever you've seen in popular fantasy franchises... Gandalf able to cast spells yet also able to hold his own with a sword...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
They are nothing alike in almost every way.
UO had a neat system where each Skill was set automatically to go up, but you could change them by locking them where they are, or set them to go down in the case that you're at max total Skill Points and you want to give up one Skill to raise another. So your new Skill effectively robbed the old Skill of points over time. You still had the old Skill to use, even as it went slowly down.
Realistic. Immersive in a Worldly design way.
That's not the same as just switching everything out.
What's next, changing race? Orc one day, Centaur the next, and then Pixie the next?
You're right about not seeing me in gamey games, though.
You can have them, I'm good with that.
Once upon a time....
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Also in Ultima a player has many many skills/weapons/spells to pull from in there build well over 200 . Most UO builds are running with a couple dozen hot keyed.
In NW you are very restricted at any given moment in combat to I think 6 or 12.
Also the way that Crafting/ CombatSkills/ Spells/and Gathering S kills synthesis in combat in UO is quite unique .
NW system in comparison is very shallow and bland .
Ill write more later , got some stuff to take care of .
In all class based games, several classes can fulfill the tank role.
And no, there are no classes in neither UO nor NW. If you pretend there are, then you either never played those games or don't have the start of an idea of what you are talking about.
Don't let your NW hatred make you talk bullshit.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
https://www.uoguide.com/Character_Creation:_Class
Age of Shadows
Two new character classes were added with Age of Shadows. The new Paladin character class consists mainly of the new Chivalry skill. If used in conjunction with a "Book of Chivalry", a Paladin using the skill can perform powerful techniques, such as curing poison in battle, or teleporting to a new location. These types of magical abilities were previously restricted to mages. In order to perform Chivalry techniques, a Paladin must tithe gold to a shrine in exchange for "tithing points".
The new Necromancer character class was introduced along with 16 Necromancy spells. Necromancy requires a separate group of reagents: Bat Wing, Grave Dust, Daemon Blood, Nox Crystal, and Pig Iron.
Samurai Empire
Samurai Empire is the sixth expansion to the Ultima Online MMORPG, featuring an oriental-themed environment, allowing players to play archetypical characters the Samurai and Ninja. It also added a new area named the Tokuno Islands. It was developed and published by Electronic Arts and released on November 2, 2004.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online_expansions
A skill template can be considered a class.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/We all know what a Tank is , you splitting silly hairs does not change that.
I do not hate anything , but one could say "Dont let your NW White Knighting make you talk bullshit."
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Those are templates, not real classes. You aren't stuck into those specific classes, those are more like guidelines for noobs. If you want, in UO, you can be (e.g.) a necromantic paladin samurai !
Oh, and one more on /ignore... because indeed, I hate arguing on semantics (not you Nilden). If tank is a class, why can the warrior, death knight, druid, monk and Demon Hunter CLASSES be TANKS in WoW for instance ? End of discussion.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The Excelsior UO private shard I played on let you learn all skills and I found it much better than on live when I was making a mage, a combat character and a crafter.
I would also agree with making a skill template being effectively creating a class.
There are other ways to balance having all the skills like if you want to cast spells you would need to wear a robe and not armor or it would interfere with your spells and mana regen. Trade off type stuff like dual wielding two swords will improve your damage but you wouldn't get the armor bonus of a shield. etc.
You seem to know a lot about Ryzom I'm curious if they have some kind of balancing system for being able to learn all the skills?
Most other games I can think of limit you to a maximum skill selection. Secret World is 14 with 7 active 7 passive. UO is limited on the live servers. Guild Wars lets you pick 8. Project Gorgon lets you pick 2 combat skills.
I wonder just how many games let you learn all the skills? Seems like a pretty small list, even for games where you level up skills...
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Direct from WoW, but thx for your help in reinforcing the fact that there are Tank Classes .
And yes , UO can have classes ( which your comment was..
" there are NO classes in UO or NW " that is obviously false .We all know you can build hybrids , but we also all know there are classes.But no one else made the incorrect statement that "there are no classes in UO or NW" you made that statement and why it's gone this far.
/end of discussion
Have a nice day.