The hesitation is warranted. You obvious are a champion for his cause but you can’t honestly be surprised by anyone doubting a developer claiming anything.
Regardless of their pedigree.
What I expected was honest conversation about the possibilities, instead of the mocking laughter at a guy that is being terribly miscast. That doesn't bode well for that conversation.
I have a lot of respect for Ralph's achievements but we have been here before, only the reviews will tell us if an old dog can come up with some knew tricks.
We've been here before with Raph? I'm not sure what you're talking about, since you sound like it was some failure or something.
Oh come on, you two laughers. If you're laughing at the comment, have the guts to say why so I can shoot your guns outa yer holsters.
I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about what I am saying, all I am getting at is we have seen the likes of Richard Garriott come back and give us something that was not a success even on it's own terms as a smaller MMO. So can Ralph pull it out pf the bag? Maybe, we shall see. I will say one thing in his favour, he has posted on these forums, which Garriot never did.
Raph isn't Richard. Raph isn't guilty of failed games, as I've explained. Raph was never guilty of bad decisions, only unexpected player craziness in the very beginning. Raph built a successful SWG, and then it was ruined by the company after bumping him up and out of the way, because they didn't match WoW and wanted to be more like WoW. And what's really funny about it all is that other companies in the WoW Clone style, who didn't have a wont for Raph's more worldly skills, and actually are examples (mostly) of failures and only "succeed by CS, et.al." while the MMORPG genre peters away from stagnation, and HE'S the one you guys laugh at mockingly?
For the life of me (although taken by many o' PKers), I cannot understand this kind of unjustified negativity displayed towards him in this thread (and many other places over the years).
Some of you guys are backtracking now. Yeah, it sounds reasonable, "wait and see", but after the bad attitude came first. (And I see another person joined the chorus.) This is Voxels on steroids. It's game changing. And it's been partially done successfully before with SWG by...guess who...Raph Koster.
It should be met with excitement, instead it's treated like a wet blanket.
It seems as though you want to give him all the credit for things that suceeded but none of the responsibility for failures.
I'd say he has some good ideas but struggles with implementation. He seems more like a classicly perfect #2 guy who can have great success with the right direction and also miss the mark without the right guidance.
The last project I heard he was involved in was Crowfall and I was interested in his influence there. But it just didn't turn out all that great.
Here is his quote about his involvement:
" It started out as general brainstorming stuff, and as the team grew, we’ve been able to move on to working directly on designs and even picking apart UIs. I’ve helped out on everything from economics and materials design to yeah, dipping my toes into Todd’s bloodthirstiness and the warfare design that is embodied in “play to crush.”
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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The hesitation is warranted. You obvious are a champion for his cause but you can’t honestly be surprised by anyone doubting a developer claiming anything.
Regardless of their pedigree.
What I expected was honest conversation about the possibilities, instead of the mocking laughter at a guy that is being terribly miscast. That doesn't bode well for that conversation.
The inability to recognize failure is probably the number one reason mmos fall short after a launch. People need to listen to a community, not just the loudest voices ..
I respectfully decline. I am not a fan of any game or project he has worked on. I respect him as a technical mind but not a fan of any of his work.
Like was said before, what myself and many, many others want is not possible in this lifetime and perhaps the next. It is ok. MMOs played themselves out 20 years ago. They are what they are until there is a quantum jump in technology. There are many other types of games that are fun and rewarding that provide that drip drip drip of dopamine. For me personally mmos are just not it. Cool to those that still find it there.
MMORPGs haven't played themselves out and won't. What they have done and will continue to do is change over time just as every other computer gaming genre has and will.
You can't be serious right? If they haven't played themselves out then where are all these new mmorpgs that prove it? Why is no large publisher or developer taking the genre by storm with their new shiny MMORPG? The genre is terrible and everyone knows. Players, developers and publishers alike.
The Mmorpg genre is the most sideways genre in all of gaming.
The only way they have 'changed' is in how they can weasel more money out of their mobile phone player base with new predatory monetization.
Until technology allows for a quantum leap in computing power and capabilities the genre will remain a husk of it's once mighty potential.
It doesn't matter where the new MMORPGs are. The continued interest in existing ones shows they aren't played out. There have been many changes in MMORPGs that have nothing to do with monetization, so whatever.
The mighty MMORPG potential once had was presumably achieved with less computing power and capability than currently exists. Why then do we need yet more of both to reach that mighty potential again?
Technology isn't the issue. As such, advances in technology will not fix the issue.
Kind of agree with this but could Ai fill the void, mayeb, I been running an ai generator for a few days now and what it comes up with from what I ask it to do is pretty good. If enough people who have real sense of depth in game design can harness ai, it could work.
Maybe. It goes beyond just better aesthetics and more computing power. Potentially far beyond. It could very well contribute to gaming finally being at a new level such that it could again be astonishing.
This tech that Raph's working on can help ANY MMOTPG.
One of the big problems with adventuring is that it has the minimum in exploration and surprising discoveries. The reason is that the games are shipped with fixed worlds. With that, tech savvy players hack into that world and find everything, with no MOB interference. Even if a game spawned contents in a secret room, they still know where to go. With this, that secret room (or hidden cave, or whatever) can be sent to the player live after they "trip a switch." Because there's no pre-packaged map to hack into.
Same for traps and the like, or disguised levers and switches.
This is a huge boon for exciting game play that can't be done with those maps included in the box (or download). The Lore events can be much more intriguing, and open to all players rather than those who hacked the answers ahead of time.
Also, the game world can be expanded anytime, without downloads. Entire new sections can be added to dungeons because some player figure out the secret "key" to opening it up.
We'll see. What the technology can do isn't quite so important as that actually done with it.
That's true. But I think people are being way too negative about it. It's exciting stuff. A huge leap ahead for MMO's. Especially for a "worldly simulation."
That's quite possible. I know that at times I'm excessively negative over the potential of things.
I respectfully decline. I am not a fan of any game or project he has worked on. I respect him as a technical mind but not a fan of any of his work.
Like was said before, what myself and many, many others want is not possible in this lifetime and perhaps the next. It is ok. MMOs played themselves out 20 years ago. They are what they are until there is a quantum jump in technology. There are many other types of games that are fun and rewarding that provide that drip drip drip of dopamine. For me personally mmos are just not it. Cool to those that still find it there.
MMORPGs haven't played themselves out and won't. What they have done and will continue to do is change over time just as every other computer gaming genre has and will.
You can't be serious right? If they haven't played themselves out then where are all these new mmorpgs that prove it? Why is no large publisher or developer taking the genre by storm with their new shiny MMORPG? The genre is terrible and everyone knows. Players, developers and publishers alike.
The Mmorpg genre is the most sideways genre in all of gaming.
The only way they have 'changed' is in how they can weasel more money out of their mobile phone player base with new predatory monetization.
Until technology allows for a quantum leap in computing power and capabilities the genre will remain a husk of it's once mighty potential.
It doesn't matter where the new MMORPGs are. The continued interest in existing ones shows they aren't played out. There have been many changes in MMORPGs that have nothing to do with monetization, so whatever.
The mighty MMORPG potential once had was presumably achieved with less computing power and capability than currently exists. Why then do we need yet more of both to reach that mighty potential again?
Technology isn't the issue. As such, advances in technology will not fix the issue.
Kind of agree with this but could Ai fill the void, mayeb, I been running an ai generator for a few days now and what it comes up with from what I ask it to do is pretty good. If enough people who have real sense of depth in game design can harness ai, it could work.
Maybe. It goes beyond just better aesthetics and more computing power. Potentially far beyond. It could very well contribute to gaming finally being at a new level such that it could again be astonishing.
As I see it by using Stable Diffusion, processing an 8k image will need to be done on massive computers. That is production, and I also see the ability for AI to process 2d images into fully realized 3d objects and textured by using the information from the 2d image.
This technology will speed up production of 3d assets tremendously imho.
right now I'm just do 1280x720 images and maxes my mid tier machine out pretty good. If someone has lucas art level machines I beleive the need for story boards and all that extra stuff will be generated through an AI prompt within the next 10 years.
I have a lot of respect for Ralph's achievements but we have been here before, only the reviews will tell us if an old dog can come up with some knew tricks.
We've been here before with Raph? I'm not sure what you're talking about, since you sound like it was some failure or something.
Oh come on, you two laughers. If you're laughing at the comment, have the guts to say why so I can shoot your guns outa yer holsters.
I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about what I am saying, all I am getting at is we have seen the likes of Richard Garriott come back and give us something that was not a success even on it's own terms as a smaller MMO. So can Ralph pull it out pf the bag? Maybe, we shall see. I will say one thing in his favour, he has posted on these forums, which Garriot never did.
Raph isn't Richard. Raph isn't guilty of failed games, as I've explained. Raph was never guilty of bad decisions, only unexpected player craziness in the very beginning. Raph built a successful SWG, and then it was ruined by the company after bumping him up and out of the way, because they didn't match WoW and wanted to be more like WoW. And what's really funny about it all is that other companies in the WoW Clone style, who didn't have a wont for Raph's more worldly skills, and actually are examples (mostly) of failures and only "succeed by CS, et.al." while the MMORPG genre peters away from stagnation, and HE'S the one you guys laugh at mockingly?
For the life of me (although taken by many o' PKers), I cannot understand this kind of unjustified negativity displayed towards him in this thread (and many other places over the years).
Some of you guys are backtracking now. Yeah, it sounds reasonable, "wait and see", but after the bad attitude came first. (And I see another person joined the chorus.) This is Voxels on steroids. It's game changing. And it's been partially done successfully before with SWG by...guess who...Raph Koster.
It should be met with excitement, instead it's treated like a wet blanket.
Oh, I'm not backtracking, I'll double down thanks to your reference about his sale of Metaplace to Disney. Him getting rich selling to suckers hardly is a good example in this conversation.
That was some real sh!t there that never resulted in any sort of quality games, at least none that I would ever care to play.
It all closed down years ago as a failed experiment which oddly enough seems to lay the underpinnings of his latest work, so yeah, not expecting this to deliver a successful MMORPG, nevermind a good game.
Bottom line, he hasn't made or even been part of a decent MMORPG release since he left SOE back in 2005.
One of his most recent MMO consulting gigs, Crowfall...uhh yeah..wonder if he forgot to bring along his copy on putting the fun into gaming?
Oh yeah, Crowfall wasn't fun so blame the consultant. Brilliant.
MetaPlace was in your list, so don't thank me. I'm not sure what happened with MetaPlace, but again, there were other people involved in running it when it didn't work. Not sure how you blame Raph for that. Nor how you think Disney was some sort of fly-by-night outfit that didn't have a clue when they bought it. Mainly, I think it just didn't click with amateur game developers as "too much work."
Meanwhile, there's the positives, primarily UO and SWG.
Again, just throwing negatives at a target of choice, just because.
UO and SWG were delivered over 20 years ago which was the original point I think.
Raph hasn't been relevant in the MMORPG space for a very long time so there no expectation on my part that his latest effort will deliver anything I'm much interested in, even if he makes a killing off of it.
Nevermind the timeline, will be 2030 before much comes to fruition.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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UO is still running after all these years. It was the first true massive MMO, and it had issues stemming from gamers (totally rampant PKing and other player abuses) that no one could foresee would be so dominating, so bad. I mean, players PKing for half a day, every day?
You seem to want to give him all the credit for UO. But lets really take a look at what I know was his responsibility in UO that he completely failed at. That was the PK problem you are talking about. That was UO's #1 problem. He has come on here telling us how all the top executives in the company were putting pressure on him to fix the rampant PK problem which is why he implemented 19 patch fixes for it over multiple years. Yet in all that time he did not fix it at all.
The only reason UO is still alive is because he left and someone else implemented the PVE safe zone that he was TOTALLY against, that saved the game. He is on record saying he was against it.
Why didnt UO dominate EQ especially since it had a headstart? PKers is the answer. He had direct control but instead of pivoting and fixing that, his small mind kept trying to minimize that as a problem, doing very minimal patch fixes to HUGE problem that was causing MASSIVE amounts of new players to leave the game.
You say he was 1 patch away. Yeah please describe this miracle cure to the industry where Full Loot PVP allowed to kill newbs doesnt turn into a griefest. Getting rid of blue healers would have solved NOTHING. Either way he should have predicted the PK's would find a workaround after the first 18 patches. I have never heard a cure for this ever that would work. Considering he was against the real cure, I dont believe for a second 1 more of his shabby patches would have solved anything other than pissed more people off and make the game lose more of its playerbase.
You say nobody could forsee this PK problem? UMMM wrong, he was being told through feedback for years how bad it was and how it was destroying the playerbase, but he didnt have the capacity to understand how big the problem was until other games stole all the players.
Raph is directly responsible for UO not dominating the industry. So all the good things he did IMO are wiped away by him failing to solve the #1 problem that the executives of the company were asking him to solve.
So yeah, good dev, bad leader. Cant see the big picture through the trees. Stands on the train track and lets the train hit him and wont listen to anyone regardless of the evidence.
Wasn't he involved in Crowfall or just a mouth piece for advertising the gane and get money. Don't really see any good stuff from him except from the distant past. I'm not his fan so I do nor need to speak any praise in anticipation of his work.
You do rattle on about UO and no denying it was a good game but I don't personally have anty experience in it so I have no reason to trust his speeches as anything but promotion to an upcoming game.
Since he has been on record saying how he still thinks he can intermingle PVEers with PVP PK's, his next game will revolve around that dynamic. He is going to find that his miracle 20th patch cure is going to straight up FAIL as the Pk's kill newbs for fun regardless of the consequences. His game is going to tank and he is going to end up implementing the PVE safe zones he was against. By the time he actually realizes the PK problem cannot be fixed, his game will have tanked forever.
Not only will that happen, but because the PVE community is done with being farmed, his game wont even be a fraction of the popularity it could actually achieve.
All this will happen because he cannot get through his thick skull to design PVP in such a way to allow PVE'ers to completely separate themselves from PVP'ers.
There will be some real cool systems, but it wont matter.
He has something to prove, and will only end up proving that he is incapable of recognizing real solutions and admitting mistakes.
I have a lot of respect for Ralph's achievements but we have been here before, only the reviews will tell us if an old dog can come up with some knew tricks.
We've been here before with Raph? I'm not sure what you're talking about, since you sound like it was some failure or something.
Oh come on, you two laughers. If you're laughing at the comment, have the guts to say why so I can shoot your guns outa yer holsters.
Scots asleep, but lets just say Raph's track record for good game delivery has been..."inconsistent" over his early success since his days at SOE and leave it at that.
Not done any walking backward here either; and to point out my one concern Ralph went on a lot about meta gaming or whatever it was, that has always seemed like a version of the emperor's clothes (there is nothing of worth there) to me. But that does not address the games themselves and to be fair to him he may have jumped on that bandwagon just to get more publicity which I would never begrudge a developer.
Gosh, I am always a bit surprised when a thread like this becomes a giant referendum on me.
There has been so much in this thread I want to touch on, I’ll just hit on several things briefly.
First, I get the skepticism. Yes, MMO players have been disappointed for a loooooong time, There’s a reason why we at Playable Worlds aren’t out there making promises right now!
UO was one of the most advanced simulations ever made in games, at the time it came out. And yes, it most definitely was a simulation. It used artificial life techniques, individual agent AIs, and so on. Did it simulate everything? No, of course not. But it was not a collection of set pieces, as some have described it in this thread. You might be interested in this article I did: https://www.raphkoster.com/2022/09/01/sandbox-vs-themepark/
I get that some of you didn’t like UO, or never played it, or see it as having been eclipsed. A lot of time has gone by, so it’s easy to lose perspective on its influence. UO gave you all the crafting in ALL the games, Customizing your character? UO. Fishing? Having a pet? Having or decorating a house, before the Sims even came along? Player economies. Being a merchant. Chopping a tree! Player councils? UO. Yeah, a lot of that had precedent in MUDs. Not all, but much. But there is a reason UO is in multiple halls of fame and regularly listed as one of the top 50 games ever made. That DESPITE the fact that PvP was a disaster.
I do see people being a bit… selective about what parts I was involved in, what parts were my decision, etc. Yes, the PK problem was on me, no question! But you can’t stop there and assume that’s my position on PvP; after all I also designed the system in SWG and that was not only very successful, it’s basically also the system used by WoW (with a dollop of the RvR from DaoC). I’ve written thousands of words explaining why I made the choices I made and why I wouldn’t make the same ones. Picking a few quotes here and there isn’t going to give an accurate picture. Especially since a lot of what I listed in the preceding paragraph was also me.
Everything is always much more complex than the reductionist take, basically — especially in game development! Sure, I was a consultant on Crowfall. Heck, I probably spent.. gosh, at least 120 hours with the team over several years. Yeah, any given employee there exceeded that in a few weeks… I was very upfront that it was not my game. And despite what MobyGames may make you think, most of those credits weren’t my games either, in the sense that I did not design them.
On the other hand, Metaplace was undeniably mine. No, it did not succeed in terms of what we were trying to do. But what we were trying to do was proven out by Roblox so we were clearly not way off base. And the tech we built ended up being the backend for a couple dozen games. Club Penguin ran on Metaplace technology, eventually. We also shipped some very successful games which, yes, I WAS involved in designing, which whether you liked ‘em or not, picked up millions of devoted users. Fail? It really kinda depends on the yardstick. Again, complicated.
In the end, it doesn’t really matter what you think of me. All I can do is hope that you form an opinion based on the whole of the story and not individual snippets, just like you’d expect someone to do for you.
As far as what we are doing now, all I can say is that we are still chasing the dream of amazing online worlds. Ones that feel alive. I wasn’t in MMOs for a long time because the green was taken over by stuff I mostly found uninteresting. Some of you may share that opinion, some not. Some (maybe Amaranthar?) might think the reason they got boring is because I wasn’t around.
But we know the proof is in the pudding. So… not here to sell you anything. I don’t have anything I am willing to show you yet.
UO was one of the most advanced simulations ever made in games, at the time it came out. And yes, it most definitely was a simulation.
Even though I thought and think the game is not a good game, UO did great things for it's time. Saying that though, It was not the type of simulation that we are talking about here anymore than SimAnt was prior to UO. ECO is about as close as we have gotten so far but their team only really simulates the ecology piece. The reality is we are a few decades away from the ability to do it.
I get that some of you didn’t like UO, or never played it, or see it as having been eclipsed. A lot of time has gone by, so it’s easy to lose perspective on its influence. UO gave you all the crafting in ALL the games, Customizing your character? UO. Fishing? Having a pet? Having or decorating a house, before the Sims even came along? Player economies. Being a merchant. Chopping a tree! Player councils? UO. Yeah, a lot of that had precedent in MUDs. Not all, but much. But there is a reason UO is in multiple halls of fame and regularly listed as one of the top 50 games ever made. That DESPITE the fact that PvP was a disaster.
In the world of gaming, the notion of influence holds little significance. Please pardon me, Raph, but modern gamers, including those who engage in MMORPGs, simply do not show any interest in UO.
Moreover, the majority of people are not even aware of its existence, just as they are unfamiliar with NWN AOL, Realms of Arkania, or Legends of Future Past.
The concept of influence only holds meaning for those who are directly impacted by it.
In most cases, this would include developers and artists who carry forward the creative vision of previous generations that have influenced them.
However, it is safe to say that the average gamer is generally indifferent to this notion
A successful game cannot merely be a random assortment of systems that somehow function, regardless of how promising these ideas may be.
This was always my personal reservation with regards to UO and SWG.
The games lacked the necessary cohesiveness to fully engross me in their respective worlds.
Gamers desire a complete suspension of disbelief, and it is the responsibility of developers to facilitate this experience for us.
It is imperative to address your past record in contributing to games that may have raised some doubts or failed to stand the test of time and competition. As a member of the gaming community and a user on an MMORPG site that caters to a demographic interested in your future projects, we are curious to know how you have capitalized on these opportunities to grow and align with our expectations.
Achieving success in the gaming industry requires a harmonious blend of talent and vision. It is crucial for you to demonstrate how you have honed your skills and expanded your creative vision to ensure that your future endeavors are in line with what we, as the gaming public, anticipate.
I am quite happy to judge you by the reviews of the pudding Raph, I think we all are. I am glad you seem to have moved on from Metaplace as 'the next big thing', though I must admit I had not realised any games had come out of it. Of all the things you talked about it seemed the least interesting for gamers and the most interesting for studios and the gaming media.
As to not showing anything, that's fine, we have had other developers on here who have taken the same approach, you will get pillared unless you show a game that was ready to launch yesterday. Players find it hard to equate the early look of the design process with anything they would want to play.
And thanks for posting, if I was in your position I am not sure I would come onto gaming forums myself, the skepticism runs deep and you will get a ton of flak.
In the world of gaming, the notion of influence holds little significance. Please pardon me, Raph, but modern gamers, including those who engage in MMORPGs, simply do not show any interest in UO.
Moreover, the majority of people are not even aware of its existence, just as they are unfamiliar with NWN AOL, Realms of Arkania, or Legends of Future Past.
The concept of influence only holds meaning for those who are directly impacted by it.
In most cases, this would include developers and artists who carry forward the creative vision of previous generations that have influenced them.
However, it is safe to say that the average gamer is generally indifferent to this notion
A successful game cannot merely be a random assortment of systems that somehow function, regardless of how promising these ideas may be.
This was always my personal reservation with regards to UO and SWG.
The games lacked the necessary cohesiveness to fully engross me in their respective worlds.
Gamers desire a complete suspension of disbelief, and it is the responsibility of developers to facilitate this experience for us.
It is imperative to address your past record in contributing to games that may have raised some doubts or failed to stand the test of time and competition. As a member of the gaming community and a user on an MMORPG site that caters to a demographic interested in your future projects, we are curious to know how you have capitalized on these opportunities to grow and align with our expectations.
Achieving success in the gaming industry requires a harmonious blend of talent and vision. It is crucial for you to demonstrate how you have honed your skills and expanded your creative vision to ensure that your future endeavors are in line with what we, as the gaming public, anticipate.
I have to say I think you are being totally unrealistic here, we are not his studio boss, we don't need Raph to explain his past projects to our satisfaction. If we are putting money up front, we could expect to know more about what is being created. But I am one of those who puts money in after I see the reviews so that's for the rest of you.
From what you are saying it seems he may have made some mistakes, have you never done so in your career? Heavens, If I decided to go back to work and had to explain every decision I had made in my career up to this point I would think I was in a dystopian nightmare.
I agree that most gamers have not heard of UO etc., but that's their loss, gaming is an entertainment and art form that is the summation of its history. The lessons of the past inform the future.
Gosh, I am always a bit surprised when a thread like this becomes a giant referendum on me.
UO was one of the most advanced simulations ever made in games, at the time it came out.
Raph, I have always said you have some amazing developer skills. UO was one of my most favorite games of all time. Some of the PVE systems crafting/ecomony are unmatched even today.
However with all these issues, the main reason UO is not well known today is due to the PVP mechanic design of the game.
I remember back in those days where I had friends lose EVERYTHING they owned due to some griefer cleaning out their entire house. I had someone close to me who was a full PVE tailor merchant that stayed in town 90% of the time, come to me crying about a game ending incident. They were immensely enjoying the game until one day they took a portal to someones vendor (had a house key on them), and was blocked in by crates, portal blocked and fully ganked, and had everything stolen from them, all items on them, entire house contents and belongings gone forever, essentially putting them back at ZERO. All because they made 1 simple mistake and forgot to bank their house key.
So here is my question to you. You said a few years ago you still thought trammel (pve safe zones) was a mistake and that it went to far. Do you still feel this way, or have you changed your opinion. Do you still believe in designs where its perfectly fine to have high level players griefing newbies, killing PVE players because they accidently cross a hidden zone line, or take a portal to some nefarious place and lose everything.
Personally I think having a separate PVE server and PVP server is essential in todays MMO world. PVEers are sick of being targets. This allows people who want to play in a PVP environment to play with people like themselves, and PVE players to not have to worry about being sneak attacked at 10% health.
Gosh, I am always a bit surprised when a thread like this becomes a giant referendum on me.
UO was one of the most advanced simulations ever made in games, at the time it came out.
Raph, I have always said you have some amazing developer skills. UO was one of my most favorite games of all time. Some of the PVE systems crafting/ecomony are unmatched even today.
However with all these issues, the main reason UO is not well known today is due to the PVP mechanic design of the game.
I remember back in those days where I had friends lose EVERYTHING they owned due to some griefer cleaning out their entire house. I had someone close to me who was a full PVE tailor merchant that stayed in town 90% of the time, come to me crying about a game ending incident. They were immensely enjoying the game until one day they took a portal to someones vendor (had a house key on them), and was blocked in by crates, portal blocked and fully ganked, and had everything stolen from them, all items on them, entire house contents and belongings gone forever, essentially putting them back at ZERO. All because they made 1 simple mistake and forgot to bank their house key.
So here is my question to you. You said a few years ago you still thought trammel (pve safe zones) was a mistake and that it went to far. Do you still feel this way, or have you changed your opinion. Do you still believe in designs where its perfectly fine to have high level players griefing newbies, killing PVE players because they accidently cross a hidden zone line, or take a portal to some nefarious place and lose everything.
Personally I think having a separate PVE server and PVP server is essential in todays MMO world. PVEers are sick of being targets. This allows people who want to play in a PVP environment to play with people like themselves, and PVE players to not have to worry about being sneak attacked at 10% health.
Where do you stand NOW?
Glad to see I wasn't the only person who remembers what Raph said a few years back.
In effect he felt that UO gave up too quickly and that a workable solution was still possible with only just a "little" more effort.
EVE Online is the only good example I know of that made FFA PVP somewhat palatable to a carebear like me, but your tailor story is repeated regularly, countless customers have walked away forever after suffering a crushing loss because they made a "mistake" or were ignorant of the risk.
So I would love for Raph to one day expound more on how his new title will control these bad behaviors, or will he follow your sensible suggestion to create separate worlds for PVE players?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Gosh, I am always a bit surprised when a thread like this becomes a giant referendum on me.
UO was one of the most advanced simulations ever made in games, at the time it came out.
Raph, I have always said you have some amazing developer skills. UO was one of my most favorite games of all time. Some of the PVE systems crafting/ecomony are unmatched even today.
However with all these issues, the main reason UO is not well known today is due to the PVP mechanic design of the game.
I remember back in those days where I had friends lose EVERYTHING they owned due to some griefer cleaning out their entire house. I had someone close to me who was a full PVE tailor merchant that stayed in town 90% of the time, come to me crying about a game ending incident. They were immensely enjoying the game until one day they took a portal to someones vendor (had a house key on them), and was blocked in by crates, portal blocked and fully ganked, and had everything stolen from them, all items on them, entire house contents and belongings gone forever, essentially putting them back at ZERO. All because they made 1 simple mistake and forgot to bank their house key.
So here is my question to you. You said a few years ago you still thought trammel (pve safe zones) was a mistake and that it went to far. Do you still feel this way, or have you changed your opinion. Do you still believe in designs where its perfectly fine to have high level players griefing newbies, killing PVE players because they accidently cross a hidden zone line, or take a portal to some nefarious place and lose everything.
Personally I think having a separate PVE server and PVP server is essential in todays MMO world. PVEers are sick of being targets. This allows people who want to play in a PVP environment to play with people like themselves, and PVE players to not have to worry about being sneak attacked at 10% health.
Where do you stand NOW?
For one thing, he removed the need for keys. The owner simply opened the door even as it was locked (if I recall right). Or they could leave it unlocked if they wanted to, for public spaces.
They also added the "Lock Down" feature, where players could lock items down where they placed them inside their houses. So no more house thefts (except for the rear corner bug that was also fixed). Same thing they did in SWG, after learning that lesson.
Players did a lot of the unexpected in UO, being the first of its kind, in order to be total douchebags.
For his general take, you could read his post. But I too wouldn't mind hearing a more detailed reply, if he's settled on what that is.
(Snip) ...... Some (maybe Amaranthar?) might think the reason they got boring is because I wasn’t around. ......
Well, yea-uh. lol
But you know that I haven't been simply a total fanboy over the years, unlike these folks here. I just give credit where it's earned, and don't care for generalized skunk-eyed comments.
I also suspect that you've been biding time for the right moment to create that different game, from the D&D "module" style, which has run its course now.
I give credit where credit is due but I am not seeing the need to do so here. Credit for what? One of many people involved in projects no one barely knows about nor remembers nor cares about? It is rearview mirror. Trust is a currency. His pockets are empty.
In the world of gaming, the notion of influence holds little significance. Please pardon me, Raph, but modern gamers, including those who engage in MMORPGs, simply do not show any interest in UO.
Moreover, the majority of people are not even aware of its existence, just as they are unfamiliar with NWN AOL, Realms of Arkania, or Legends of Future Past.
The concept of influence only holds meaning for those who are directly impacted by it.
In most cases, this would include developers and artists who carry forward the creative vision of previous generations that have influenced them.
However, it is safe to say that the average gamer is generally indifferent to this notion
A successful game cannot merely be a random assortment of systems that somehow function, regardless of how promising these ideas may be.
This was always my personal reservation with regards to UO and SWG.
The games lacked the necessary cohesiveness to fully engross me in their respective worlds.
Gamers desire a complete suspension of disbelief, and it is the responsibility of developers to facilitate this experience for us.
It is imperative to address your past record in contributing to games that may have raised some doubts or failed to stand the test of time and competition. As a member of the gaming community and a user on an MMORPG site that caters to a demographic interested in your future projects, we are curious to know how you have capitalized on these opportunities to grow and align with our expectations.
Achieving success in the gaming industry requires a harmonious blend of talent and vision. It is crucial for you to demonstrate how you have honed your skills and expanded your creative vision to ensure that your future endeavors are in line with what we, as the gaming public, anticipate.
I have to say I think you are being totally unrealistic here, we are not his studio boss, we don't need Raph to explain his past projects to our satisfaction. If we are putting money up front, we could expect to know more about what is being created. But I am one of those who puts money in after I see the reviews so that's for the rest of you.
From what you are saying it seems he may have made some mistakes, have you never done so in your career? Heavens, If I decided to go back to work and had to explain every decision I had made in my career up to this point I would think I was in a dystopian nightmare.
I agree that most gamers have not heard of UO etc., but that's their loss, gaming is an entertainment and art form that is the summation of its history. The lessons of the past inform the future.
I understand that there might be a perception of my approach as unrealistic, but it seems that few others share that belief in this context. The subsequent posts, as well as the majority of the preceding ones, are inquiring about the questions that I encouraged him to take responsibility for. He came here to provide elucidations about his work. I will not shy away in seclusion when he does. I am not overwhelmed by his 'developer label'. He is just some guy who did a thing.
For one thing, he removed the need for keys. The owner simply opened the door even as it was locked (if I recall right). Or they could leave it unlocked if they wanted to, for public spaces.
They also added the "Lock Down" feature, where players could lock items down where they placed them inside their houses. So no more house thefts (except for the rear corner bug that was also fixed). Same thing they did in SWG, after learning that lesson.
Players did a lot of the unexpected in UO, being the first of its kind, in order to be total douchebags.
For his general take, you could read his post. But I too wouldn't mind hearing a more detailed reply, if he's settled on what that is.
You can try to defend this all day, but you have to be completely niave to think griefers wont find a work around to hurt peaceful players that have to traverse a PVP FULL LOOT world.
Lets go over just a few of the thousands of issues they attempted to resolve and failed.
House keys (allowing people to steal everything you own). Teleportation into houses from higher elevations (again everything is gone) Hidden players following people into their house (while hidden), waiting for them to logout then stealing everything they own. telekinesis through walls (steal everything) Portal blocking ganking Crates to prevent movement around a portal (patch) naked theives stealing items in town (result) naked theives stealing in town then after guard kills them, friend loots item (FAIL) (patch) Having newbs put bounties on PK's (result) PK's get huge bounties accrued then kill themselves with another character free MONEY (FAIL) Trade window scam, where putting overheavy items into a bag causes everything on the receiver to drop on ground after trade completes, scammer picks it up and banks it, AND keeps the money too.
I could go on and on with these stupid patch fixes, meanwhile countless newbs are getting everything they have stolen. While NOTHING is happening at all to the scammers or exploiters.
Also dont forget the most popular PVP areas were Xroads and Graveyard both are "coincidently" the newbie starter areas. So high level players griefing newbs the entire time.
Dont act like this is not predicted. This was going on for years and only fixed with Trammel (PVE safe zone), then the problems immediately siezed to exist (after Raph left). The Zone Raph is on record saying he was against.
How many patches does it take to figure out scammers/griefers will find ways to inflict pain on people, and banning them is really the best solution.
less than 1% of the players were causing this entire game to freefall, and NOTHING was being done about it.
Raph oversaw a completely lawless world, rampant with griefers and scammers and stood and watched. Any fool could have just watched in town for 5 minutes and saw any number of these scams happening. Or stood at the Xroads and watch the newbs being ganked day in day out.
I give credit where credit is due but I am not seeing the need to do so here. Credit for what? One of many people involved in projects no one barely knows about nor remembers nor cares about? It is rearview mirror. Trust is a currency. His pockets are empty.
Credit for creating a world simulation like no one else has come close to. Of course the problems with that is something no one else wants to tackle, so there's that.
Comments
Once upon a time....
I'd say he has some good ideas but struggles with implementation. He seems more like a classicly perfect #2 guy who can have great success with the right direction and also miss the mark without the right guidance.
The last project I heard he was involved in was Crowfall and I was interested in his influence there. But it just didn't turn out all that great.
Here is his quote about his involvement:
" It started out as general brainstorming stuff, and as the team grew, we’ve been able to move on to working directly on designs and even picking apart UIs. I’ve helped out on everything from economics and materials design to yeah, dipping my toes into Todd’s bloodthirstiness and the warfare design that is embodied in “play to crush.”
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The inability to recognize failure is probably the number one reason mmos fall short after a launch. People need to listen to a community, not just the loudest voices ..
Maybe. It goes beyond just better aesthetics and more computing power. Potentially far beyond. It could very well contribute to gaming finally being at a new level such that it could again be astonishing.
That's quite possible. I know that at times I'm excessively negative over the potential of things.
Raph hasn't been relevant in the MMORPG space for a very long time so there no expectation on my part that his latest effort will deliver anything I'm much interested in, even if he makes a killing off of it.
Nevermind the timeline, will be 2030 before much comes to fruition.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The only reason UO is still alive is because he left and someone else implemented the PVE safe zone that he was TOTALLY against, that saved the game. He is on record saying he was against it.
Why didnt UO dominate EQ especially since it had a headstart? PKers is the answer. He had direct control but instead of pivoting and fixing that, his small mind kept trying to minimize that as a problem, doing very minimal patch fixes to HUGE problem that was causing MASSIVE amounts of new players to leave the game.
You say he was 1 patch away. Yeah please describe this miracle cure to the industry where Full Loot PVP allowed to kill newbs doesnt turn into a griefest. Getting rid of blue healers would have solved NOTHING. Either way he should have predicted the PK's would find a workaround after the first 18 patches. I have never heard a cure for this ever that would work. Considering he was against the real cure, I dont believe for a second 1 more of his shabby patches would have solved anything other than pissed more people off and make the game lose more of its playerbase.
You say nobody could forsee this PK problem? UMMM wrong, he was being told through feedback for years how bad it was and how it was destroying the playerbase, but he didnt have the capacity to understand how big the problem was until other games stole all the players.
Raph is directly responsible for UO not dominating the industry. So all the good things he did IMO are wiped away by him failing to solve the #1 problem that the executives of the company were asking him to solve.
So yeah, good dev, bad leader. Cant see the big picture through the trees. Stands on the train track and lets the train hit him and wont listen to anyone regardless of the evidence.
Since he has been on record saying how he still thinks he can intermingle PVEers with PVP PK's, his next game will revolve around that dynamic. He is going to find that his miracle 20th patch cure is going to straight up FAIL as the Pk's kill newbs for fun regardless of the consequences. His game is going to tank and he is going to end up implementing the PVE safe zones he was against. By the time he actually realizes the PK problem cannot be fixed, his game will have tanked forever.
Not only will that happen, but because the PVE community is done with being farmed, his game wont even be a fraction of the popularity it could actually achieve.
All this will happen because he cannot get through his thick skull to design PVP in such a way to allow PVE'ers to completely separate themselves from PVP'ers.
There will be some real cool systems, but it wont matter.
He has something to prove, and will only end up proving that he is incapable of recognizing real solutions and admitting mistakes.
There has been so much in this thread I want to touch on, I’ll just hit on several things briefly.
First, I get the skepticism. Yes, MMO players have been disappointed for a loooooong time, There’s a reason why we at Playable Worlds aren’t out there making promises right now!
UO was one of the most advanced simulations ever made in games, at the time it came out. And yes, it most definitely was a simulation. It used artificial life techniques, individual agent AIs, and so on. Did it simulate everything? No, of course not. But it was not a collection of set pieces, as some have described it in this thread. You might be interested in this article I did: https://www.raphkoster.com/2022/09/01/sandbox-vs-themepark/
I get that some of you didn’t like UO, or never played it, or see it as having been eclipsed. A lot of time has gone by, so it’s easy to lose perspective on its influence. UO gave you all the crafting in ALL the games, Customizing your character? UO. Fishing? Having a pet? Having or decorating a house, before the Sims even came along? Player economies. Being a merchant. Chopping a tree! Player councils? UO. Yeah, a lot of that had precedent in MUDs. Not all, but much. But there is a reason UO is in multiple halls of fame and regularly listed as one of the top 50 games ever made. That DESPITE the fact that PvP was a disaster.
Everything is always much more complex than the reductionist take, basically — especially in game development! Sure, I was a consultant on Crowfall. Heck, I probably spent.. gosh, at least 120 hours with the team over several years. Yeah, any given employee there exceeded that in a few weeks…
On the other hand, Metaplace was undeniably mine. No, it did not succeed in terms of what we were trying to do. But what we were trying to do was proven out by Roblox so we were clearly not way off base. And the tech we built ended up being the backend for a couple dozen games. Club Penguin ran on Metaplace technology, eventually. We also shipped some very successful games which, yes, I WAS involved in designing, which whether you liked ‘em or not, picked up millions of devoted users. Fail? It really kinda depends on the yardstick. Again, complicated.
In the end, it doesn’t really matter what you think of me. All I can do is hope that you form an opinion based on the whole of the story and not individual snippets, just like you’d expect someone to do for you.
As far as what we are doing now, all I can say is that we are still chasing the dream of amazing online worlds. Ones that feel alive. I wasn’t in MMOs for a long time because the green was taken over by stuff I mostly found uninteresting. Some of you may share that opinion, some not. Some (maybe Amaranthar?) might think the reason they got boring is because I wasn’t around.
But we know the proof is in the pudding. So… not here to sell you anything. I don’t have anything I am willing to show you yet.
In the world of gaming, the notion of influence holds little significance.
Please pardon me, Raph, but modern gamers, including those who engage in MMORPGs, simply do not show any interest in UO.
Moreover, the majority of people are not even aware of its existence, just as they are unfamiliar with NWN AOL, Realms of Arkania, or Legends of Future Past. The concept of influence only holds meaning for those who are directly impacted by it.
In most cases, this would include developers and artists who carry forward the creative vision of previous generations that have influenced them. However, it is safe to say that the average gamer is generally indifferent to this notion
A successful game cannot merely be a random assortment of systems that somehow function, regardless of how promising these ideas may be.
This was always my personal reservation with regards to UO and SWG.
The games lacked the necessary cohesiveness to fully engross me in their respective worlds.
Gamers desire a complete suspension of disbelief, and it is the responsibility of developers to facilitate this experience for us.
It is imperative to address your past record in contributing to games that may have raised some doubts or failed to stand the test of time and competition.
As a member of the gaming community and a user on an MMORPG site that caters to a demographic interested in your future projects, we are curious to know how you have capitalized on these opportunities to grow and align with our expectations.
Achieving success in the gaming industry requires a harmonious blend of talent and vision. It is crucial for you to demonstrate how you have honed your skills and expanded your creative vision to ensure that your future endeavors are in line with what we, as the gaming public, anticipate.
TYVM for sharing and joining the conversation
As to not showing anything, that's fine, we have had other developers on here who have taken the same approach, you will get pillared unless you show a game that was ready to launch yesterday. Players find it hard to equate the early look of the design process with anything they would want to play.
And thanks for posting, if I was in your position I am not sure I would come onto gaming forums myself, the skepticism runs deep and you will get a ton of flak.
From what you are saying it seems he may have made some mistakes, have you never done so in your career? Heavens, If I decided to go back to work and had to explain every decision I had made in my career up to this point I would think I was in a dystopian nightmare.
I agree that most gamers have not heard of UO etc., but that's their loss, gaming is an entertainment and art form that is the summation of its history. The lessons of the past inform the future.
Raph, I have always said you have some amazing developer skills. UO was one of my most favorite games of all time. Some of the PVE systems crafting/ecomony are unmatched even today.
However with all these issues, the main reason UO is not well known today is due to the PVP mechanic design of the game.
I remember back in those days where I had friends lose EVERYTHING they owned due to some griefer cleaning out their entire house. I had someone close to me who was a full PVE tailor merchant that stayed in town 90% of the time, come to me crying about a game ending incident. They were immensely enjoying the game until one day they took a portal to someones vendor (had a house key on them), and was blocked in by crates, portal blocked and fully ganked, and had everything stolen from them, all items on them, entire house contents and belongings gone forever, essentially putting them back at ZERO. All because they made 1 simple mistake and forgot to bank their house key.
So here is my question to you. You said a few years ago you still thought trammel (pve safe zones) was a mistake and that it went to far. Do you still feel this way, or have you changed your opinion. Do you still believe in designs where its perfectly fine to have high level players griefing newbies, killing PVE players because they accidently cross a hidden zone line, or take a portal to some nefarious place and lose everything.
Personally I think having a separate PVE server and PVP server is essential in todays MMO world. PVEers are sick of being targets. This allows people who want to play in a PVP environment to play with people like themselves, and PVE players to not have to worry about being sneak attacked at 10% health.
Where do you stand NOW?
In effect he felt that UO gave up too quickly and that a workable solution was still possible with only just a "little" more effort.
EVE Online is the only good example I know of that made FFA PVP somewhat palatable to a carebear like me, but your tailor story is repeated regularly, countless customers have walked away forever after suffering a crushing loss because they made a "mistake" or were ignorant of the risk.
So I would love for Raph to one day expound more on how his new title will control these bad behaviors, or will he follow your sensible suggestion to create separate worlds for PVE players?
In the immortal words of Twisted Sister,
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They also added the "Lock Down" feature, where players could lock items down where they placed them inside their houses. So no more house thefts (except for the rear corner bug that was also fixed). Same thing they did in SWG, after learning that lesson.
Players did a lot of the unexpected in UO, being the first of its kind, in order to be total douchebags.
For his general take, you could read his post. But I too wouldn't mind hearing a more detailed reply, if he's settled on what that is.
Once upon a time....
But you know that I haven't been simply a total fanboy over the years, unlike these folks here. I just give credit where it's earned, and don't care for generalized skunk-eyed comments.
I also suspect that you've been biding time for the right moment to create that different game, from the D&D "module" style, which has run its course now.
Once upon a time....
Credit for what?
One of many people involved in projects no one barely knows about nor remembers nor cares about?
It is rearview mirror.
Trust is a currency.
His pockets are empty.
The subsequent posts, as well as the majority of the preceding ones, are inquiring about the questions that I encouraged him to take responsibility for.
He came here to provide elucidations about his work.
I will not shy away in seclusion when he does.
I am not overwhelmed by his 'developer label'.
He is just some guy who did a thing.
You can try to defend this all day, but you have to be completely niave to think griefers wont find a work around to hurt peaceful players that have to traverse a PVP FULL LOOT world.
Lets go over just a few of the thousands of issues they attempted to resolve and failed.
House keys (allowing people to steal everything you own).
Teleportation into houses from higher elevations (again everything is gone)
Hidden players following people into their house (while hidden), waiting for them to logout then stealing everything they own.
telekinesis through walls (steal everything)
Portal blocking ganking
Crates to prevent movement around a portal
(patch) naked theives stealing items in town (result) naked theives stealing in town then after guard kills them, friend loots item (FAIL)
(patch) Having newbs put bounties on PK's (result) PK's get huge bounties accrued then kill themselves with another character free MONEY (FAIL)
Trade window scam, where putting overheavy items into a bag causes everything on the receiver to drop on ground after trade completes, scammer picks it up and banks it, AND keeps the money too.
I could go on and on with these stupid patch fixes, meanwhile countless newbs are getting everything they have stolen. While NOTHING is happening at all to the scammers or exploiters.
Also dont forget the most popular PVP areas were Xroads and Graveyard both are "coincidently" the newbie starter areas. So high level players griefing newbs the entire time.
Dont act like this is not predicted. This was going on for years and only fixed with Trammel (PVE safe zone), then the problems immediately siezed to exist (after Raph left). The Zone Raph is on record saying he was against.
How many patches does it take to figure out scammers/griefers will find ways to inflict pain on people, and banning them is really the best solution.
less than 1% of the players were causing this entire game to freefall, and NOTHING was being done about it.
Raph oversaw a completely lawless world, rampant with griefers and scammers and stood and watched. Any fool could have just watched in town for 5 minutes and saw any number of these scams happening. Or stood at the Xroads and watch the newbs being ganked day in day out.
Of course the problems with that is something no one else wants to tackle, so there's that.
Once upon a time....