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No wonder Starfield feels like such a downgrade from previous Bethesda games.

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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    I dont trust ratings hardly at all.  I dont know if they are fake, paid, exaggerated, or whatever, I just know for me, they dont seem to be accurate, especially critic reviews.

    If its not overwhelmingly positive on steam then I am going in skeptical right from the start.

    I think the outsourcing thing needs to be looked at.  I never even corralated that information, I would like to see further data on how it relates to good game design. Is it possible that quality started going down due to heavily outsourcing?  I dont know, but I dont think it can be discounted.

    It seems in house studio's are making just as much trash as outsourced studio's, but I dont have any real data to compare.
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?
    Sovrath
  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 7,096
    edited September 2023
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?
    Haha... I think Sovrath needs to re-read the definition of Sci-Fi, if he thinks all those games are not Sci-Fi.

    "Science fiction (sometimes shortened to SF or sci-fi) is a genre of speculative fiction, which typically deals with imaginative and futuristic concepts such as advanced science and technologyspace explorationtime travelparallel universes, and extraterrestrial life. "
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  • TerazonTerazon Member RarePosts: 407
    JeroKane said:
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?
    Haha... I think Sovrath needs to re-read the definition of Sci-Fi, if he thinks all those games are not Sci-Fi.

    "Science fiction (sometimes shortened to SF or sci-fi) is a genre of speculative fiction, which typically deals with imaginative and futuristic concepts such as advanced science and technologyspace explorationtime travelparallel universes, and extraterrestrial life. "
    Maybe the presence of magic? 

    I don’t really consider Star Wars sci-fi either because, you know, space wizards. 
    I consider it like a fantasy story in space (in my opinion)
    It doesn’t really matter though. 
    Labels are meaningless other than giving you the basic idea about something how it is defined beyond that idea is open to interpretation. 
  • mklinicmklinic Member RarePosts: 2,012
    If the initial concern is that some things were outsourced, this sounds like much ado about nothing.

    I mean, people complain about buggy releases when Bethesda appears to do most/everything in house. Now people complain when there is indications they've outsourced work. Either way, there's complaining, so I guess that itch gets scratched...

    That said, not sure this is fundamentally different from augmenting staff, or hiring specific skills, while developing the game and then laying them all off post launch.

    -mklinic

    "Do something right, no one remembers.
    Do something wrong, no one forgets"
    -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,043
    edited September 2023
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited September 2023
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?
    Those you listed are sci-fi, except Star Wars. Star Wars is fantasy. Everything from rescuing the Princess to Midichlorians being responsible for Jedi. There is no science in Star Wars. 
    <br>
    Easiest comparison is Star Wars vs. Star Trek. George Lucas had no interest in the "how or why" something he wanted on screen worked or didn't, he wanted it for the story vision in his head. Perfectly valid on his end, but the result is a conglomeration of magic "tech" in a space setting. Absolutely nothing in Star Wars is based on any sort of science.
    <br>
    Whereas Gene Roddenberry wanted everything on screen to have scientific plausibility, either based on current technology or what could be foreseen as future iterations of that technology. Everything from the communicator to the PDA to the video calling to ion drives he predicted through Star Trek and even the teleporter makes scientific sense now that we've teleported single atoms.
    <br>
    There's a reason Star Trek has been credited countless times as accurately predicting future tech while Star Wars is still just a fun fantasy movie about Space Wizards with magic swords.
    The Midis where dropped quietly though, I think they realised what a can of worms that opened for SW lore. That's the only one that's not SF, Star Wars is a Space Opera, a space fantasy opera really. But there are not that many SF RPG's built on old SF IP's, also a strong sandbox element can be used instead of lore, just like we see in MMORPG's. Not saying they are exclusive or that sandbox developers even want to have less lore, but sandbox means you can avoid quests, which in turn means you can avoid lore.
  • gameplayingmonkeygameplayingmonkey Member UncommonPosts: 72
    JeroKane said:
    Haha... I think Sovrath needs to re-read the definition of Sci-Fi, if he thinks all those games are not Sci-Fi.
    I'm assuming the stance is that 'Science Fiction' needs some sort of basis in factual science for its speculative futures and its objective is exploration of moral/philosophical quandaries and their relation to real world mankind and our (nearing) problems.

    Conversely here under the same assumption something like Star Wars categorically is an extension of fantasy (set in a space future, instead of a past) and its objective to the consumer is escapism via entertainment.

    The idea here is that the term Science Fiction implies more than simply 'future setting,' though this is a dubious conversation to get into given the deep intricacies of genre terminology and the sheer weight of the fact that the vast majority of people absolutely do not care about such things whatsoever.

    I do think its interesting to point out that generally 'fantasy' is escapism, its deeply rooted in mythology and folklore, of which purpose was to explain to ancient people how to deal with moral and philosophical problems. I guess it all comes full circle?

    Kyleran
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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    ValdemarJ said:
    Sovrath said:
    They should have also allowed for landing properly on planets but I suppose that was a design decision.
    What do you mean by this? I see a planet, I pick a spot to land and my ship lands there.

    Are you referring to the transition loading screen? Even No Man's Sky isn't really seamless in this way. It just does a very good job at fooling players into thinking it's seamless, which maybe Starfield could have done better. No Man's Sky also offer in atmosphere flight, which is completely unrealistic when you're talking about spacecraft functioning as aircraft.


    Yes, that's what I meant. And sure, of course they are going to have to pull some visual tricks to make it happen.

    So probably not necessary in Starfield but it would have been a very well received "touch."

    ValdemarJ
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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?

    People see lasers and spaceships and always go to "it's science fiction." Science Fiction was typically about man's relationship to Science and how scientific breakthroughs affect humanity. So the "science" part is "part" of its plot.

    Star wars is more fantasy. Star Trek is probably science fiction. I've never played Starcraft so can't say.

    If the science and technology part is an integral part of the plot then I imagine it's science fiction. If it's just a story set in a fictional future using lasers and space ships and taking the plot and putting it in, say, medieval times or the Bronze age would change nothing but setting then probably not science fiction.

    At least that's my understanding of it.
    Arglebargle
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    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    JeroKane said:
    Haha... I think Sovrath needs to re-read the definition of Sci-Fi, if he thinks all those games are not Sci-Fi.
    I'm assuming the stance is that 'Science Fiction' needs some sort of basis in factual science for its speculative futures and its objective is exploration of moral/philosophical quandaries and their relation to real world mankind and our (nearing) problems.

    Conversely here under the same assumption something like Star Wars categorically is an extension of fantasy (set in a space future, instead of a past) and its objective to the consumer is escapism via entertainment.

    The idea here is that the term Science Fiction implies more than simply 'future setting,' though this is a dubious conversation to get into given the deep intricacies of genre terminology and the sheer weight of the fact that the vast majority of people absolutely do not care about such things whatsoever.

    I do think its interesting to point out that generally 'fantasy' is escapism, its deeply rooted in mythology and folklore, of which purpose was to explain to ancient people how to deal with moral and philosophical problems. I guess it all comes full circle?


    Yeah, that's pretty much it.
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    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    templarga said:
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?

    People see lasers and spaceships and always go to "it's science fiction." Science Fiction was typically about man's relationship to Science and how scientific breakthroughs affect humanity. So the "science" part is "part" of its plot.

    Star wars is more fantasy. Star Trek is probably science fiction. I've never played Starcraft so can't say.

    If the science and technology part is an integral part of the plot then I imagine it's science fiction. If it's just a story set in a fictional future using lasers and space ships and taking the plot and putting it in, say, medieval times or the Bronze age would change nothing but setting then probably not science fiction.

    At least that's my understanding of it.
    Did you read/watch The Expanse series? I think of it as science fiction versus fiction set in space?

    The reason I ask (and I will be vague here) is that often in science fiction there is a lot of existentialist philosophy related to man's role in the universe, where did we come from, what's out there, worlds/technology/beings beyond our known universe, etc...? I saw a lot of that in The Expanse and I see a lot of it in Starfield too (later game as the MSQ unfolds).

    I haven't though I've heard good things. Yeah, I think the idea of man's role in the universe as man makes his way into the universe is definitely science fiction.
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    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Terazon said:
    It is well reviewed and is selling well. 
    What is the problem here?
    Hipster pile on project?
    Tear it down! Tear it all down!

    Is there a problem? It's seems more par for the course.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?

    I suppose it depends on how you define it. How much actual science goes into that fiction? How much should to actually qualify as science-fiction?
    Sovrath
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?

    I suppose it depends on how you define it. How much actual science goes into that fiction? How much should to actually qualify as science-fiction?
    Oh no, another concept no one can all agree on, just toss it on the pile with sandbox, MMO and P2W.

    ;)
    SovrathValdemarJKnightFalzScot

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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Sci-Fi, Sci-Fantasy, I really dont care what you call it.  I am not going to get caught up in some old definition.  All I care about is it fun. Make it super fun for me and I will let others hash out the defintions.
    Scot
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,973
    edited September 2023
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah that was kind of my thought. What do people really mean by sci-if as there are people who don’t understand think Star Wars is sci-if.

    Played mass effect 2 and got more of a Star Wars vibe than sci-fi.

    only game I can remember with a science fiction bent was Andromeda. And that’s an old game.

    Yeah I guess I am one of those people.  I am curious why you dont think Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star-Trek, Starcraft, No Man's Sky, Halo  etc... are not Sci-fi.  If not Sci-fi then what are you classifying them as?
    Those you listed are sci-fi, except Star Wars. Star Wars is fantasy. Everything from rescuing the Princess to Midichlorians being responsible for Jedi. There is no science in Star Wars. 
    Star Wars is science fantasy.

    But calling it science fiction or fantasy wouldn't be wrong either. A lot of stories have elements from multiple genres, and trying to insist they belong to one genre and not to others just causes stupid arguments.
    ScotKyleranCogohi
     
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Another term that well applies to Star Wars is space opera. In fact the description of the subgenre sounds like a point by point match. It originated in the '30s and I expect examples of it served as inspiration for Lucas in his works.
    KyleranCogohi
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited September 2023
    Yes SW is a space opera, a space fantasy opera really as I already mentioned above.

    In Starfield, you can literally avoid space by simply opening your map from wherever you are outside your ship, clicking on whatever planet you want to go to and *poof* you're there. There's now a mod to remove the takeoff and landing loading screens, one because they get annoying and two because they're not needed when you never have to actually takeoff or land.
    This is for me problematic a space game means you fly in space, just click and you are there is really super casual playstyles being imported into a Bethesda game. If players are modding that's another thing entirely and down to them. I don't expect ages long flying transitions, but one click goes way too far. This is where a casual posts to tell me "You don't have to click". Right. :D
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 1,593
    Tiller said:
    Gorwe said:
    Oh look. It's Asmon stirring up drama. Again. /yawn.

    Yeah but why not? He makes good money bullshitting with folks online. He's kind of a basic guy so that's probably why he has a huge following. Honestly sometimes I agree with him, other times I really don't, kinda like the forums here. I can't really bash on him, everyone needs to make a living anyway you can I guess lol. 
    I just kinda don't like him ; being all reactive and faux outraged. You can do that in other ways ; ways that I prefer.
    Kyleran
  • NeoyoshiNeoyoshi Member RarePosts: 1,450
    edited September 2023
    Jesus..... 4chan is just incorrigible.  They are really great at information gathering, but not so much at putting that information into an accurate context.

    I saw this topic earlier and wanted to respond at the time, but i knew i didn't have the energy in me, the involuntary eye-roll gesture drained me.

    1. *Outsourcing - That's an interesting way to describe a normal practice in big-budget production; whether it's a film or video game; and in this context- Larian Studios outsourced for Baldur's Gate 3.  Normally, it's not called 'outsourcing', it's just called having a 'Unit' or 'Studio' in another location or country that helps with the project; they are usually paid by contract and are credited appropriately.

    Then there are actual 3rd-parties that contribute. You'll see those 3rd parties on the splash screen and/or the logo's will show up in the credits.
    ________________________________________________________
    (* I'll say if they wanted to get the internet or the average working-class person upset, that's the term to use; it has a negative connotation attached to it and you don't have to do much leg-work.)

    2. Manufactured Outrage - No note, I just wanted to point out how faked and staged all of this is.

    I like Starfield, but i also really love Baldurs Gate 3, and video games for that matter. I do believe SF does require a bit of fixing and love from it's own studio, but like Skyrim and Fallout4 before it, it really needs the Creation Kit 2 in the hands of the modders.

    If I have a closing criticism to make about Bethesda, it is that they have unfortunately suffered from a condition of their own making -twofold, making a game larger then they can ⁽²⁾reasonably handle, and spending too long relying on the modding community.

    (2) Imagine the quality of the first 2 hours of Starfield spread out throughout the entire game; keeping the quality consistent throughout the whole experience, yes, including every star system and planet/derelict/ships/stations within those systems.


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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Gorwe said:
    Tiller said:
    Gorwe said:
    Oh look. It's Asmon stirring up drama. Again. /yawn.

    Yeah but why not? He makes good money bullshitting with folks online. He's kind of a basic guy so that's probably why he has a huge following. Honestly sometimes I agree with him, other times I really don't, kinda like the forums here. I can't really bash on him, everyone needs to make a living anyway you can I guess lol. 
    I just kinda don't like him ; being all reactive and faux outraged. You can do that in other ways ; ways that I prefer.

    He could do it another way, but from his perspective he probably has little interest in fixing what isn't broke.
    Scot
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