If mmorpg is so casual anyone can reach max stats or get everything easily, we won't be having this conversation.
Games this days are just so grindy that you can waste your whole life in a game and not get everything in the game.
GW2 Offers this!
It's pretty easy for anyone to get max level and max stats with minimal effort. Literally, in a month you can be max level and have 1 character in Ascended gear.
The first time is the hardest, after you get one up, making alts is super easy.
The largest grind in GW2 is mainly for QOL features and Cosmetics
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Play EVE Online, soon will have it's own looter shooter as well.
Has had both vertical and horizontal progression since the beginning.
Interesting,
Looter shooters are for sure vertical progression.
But, I always understood Eve to be a vertical progression game, albeit spread across a bunch of skills with slower time based progression, and a vertical hierarchy of ship classes, meaning some types of ships are just straight up better than others.
I guess there are horizontal elements in how you equip your ship, but that is generally true of any vertical game that has build choice.
It also depends if Eve has added power over time to the game, or kept the power capped and added horizontal progression.
The big difference between vertical and horizontal in my opinion is how they handle new content over time. More power over time is vertical, capping power and adding variety is horizontal. Even GW2 has a short vertical leveling section, but a really big horizontal endgame.
I would assume it's more about the fact it's perfectly viable and needed to not play what is the "strongest" or "best" tier of ship and each have their own roles and purpose despite having different power of effectiveness.
I can't speak for EVE in full confidence though so someone can correct me
I propose that if horizontal progression is truly horizontal that it is also not progression. If ability A and ability B are truly equal in power, then playing the game to earn ability B when you already have ability A is a waste of time.
Noodle on that.
Imagine, if Ability A is Melee, using Mace, and Ability B is Ranged, using a Longbow
Neither really overpowers the other, but, learning Longbow is a sense of Progression
A lot of this also depends on the game.
To use a direct example, I enjoy a game called Dungeons and Dragons Online that is quite in-depth with their mechanics, and just like the game Dungeons and Dragons, some mobs have resistances, like Skeletons take full damage from blunt, but only half from slash/piercing, so making sure you can use a mace, which is blunt damage, is adventitious to you, even if the mace might end up doing less damage then say that longsword you are proficient with.
Equally so, using DDO again.
Imagine is Ability A is Fire Based, and Ability B is Acid based, it's to your advantage to unlock Ability B, if you end up fighting mobs that immune to Fire damage, like say Fire Elementals, for example
There is also other cases, like unlocking QOL abilities. For example, again with DDO, Ammo is finite, so having an ability to have endless ammo, while does not directly make you more powerful, it is desirable
There are other examples I could use.
For example in GW2
You can unlock special merchants
Gain faster run speeds while out of combat, this becomes handy when you are just traveling around, but does not give you any combat advantage
An ability called Gliding can be unlocked, is super handy as it helps prevent you from dying to falling damage, but like the run speed, it does not in fact give you any advantage in a fight.
Another common mastery line in GW2 is being able to open specific kinds of chests. Does not give you any combat advantage, but does give you access to more loot.
So there are many kinds of systems that can be put in place, that are not simple "This gives you +1 damage" that are things players will aspire for, and work towards.
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
Yeah, I agree. I've struggled to think of "horizontal" progression that doesn't give more power. And in some cases, like you mentioned, it's pretty big power.
Even gaining missile weapons, at the same power as melee, it makes a big difference if you can plunk a few arrows into an opponent before they get to you. And it matters just as much in PvE, as far as the outcome.
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
Yeah, I agree. I've struggled to think of "horizontal" progression that doesn't give more power. And in some cases, like you mentioned, it's pretty big power.
Even gaining missile weapons, at the same power as melee, it makes a big difference if you can plunk a few arrows into an opponent before they get to you. And it matters just as much in PvE, as far as the outcome.
Choice
OR (instead of AND)
That's how you make horizontal progression genuinely horizontal. Think of ESO or Wildstar's limited action bars.
You can only use a new skill if you remove an old one. You gain something, but lose something else. The player is then faced with a choice (the heart of roleplaying....) about which skill they want to use. As long as each skill is roughly the same in power, then unlocking new skills would remain horizontal progression. You're giving the player more and more choices, but they are still limited in how many things they can have at once.
So, using examples above.....
You unlock increased run speed as a trait. But, that means you have to untrait something else, say a damage bonus. So, you can run faster, but do less damage.
You unlock increased resistance against elemental damage, making you better against generic mages who do a lot of elemental damage. But, in order to have that new elemental resistance, you have to un-slot increased physical resistance, making you worse against the melee train.
You unlock missiles for your ship, allowing you to engage in higher-damage and higher-range combat. But, that missile bay takes the place of a laser turrent, so you lose a lot of close-combat ability.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I propose that if horizontal progression is truly horizontal that it is also not progression. If ability A and ability B are truly equal in power, then playing the game to earn ability B when you already have ability A is a waste of time.
Noodle on that.
Imagine, if Ability A is Melee, using Mace, and Ability B is Ranged, using a Longbow
Neither really overpowers the other, but, learning Longbow is a sense of Progression
A lot of this also depends on the game.
To use a direct example, I enjoy a game called Dungeons and Dragons Online that is quite in-depth with their mechanics, and just like the game Dungeons and Dragons, some mobs have resistances, like Skeletons take full damage from blunt, but only half from slash/piercing, so making sure you can use a mace, which is blunt damage, is adventitious to you, even if the mace might end up doing less damage then say that longsword you are proficient with.
Equally so, using DDO again.
Imagine is Ability A is Fire Based, and Ability B is Acid based, it's to your advantage to unlock Ability B, if you end up fighting mobs that immune to Fire damage, like say Fire Elementals, for example
There is also other cases, like unlocking QOL abilities. For example, again with DDO, Ammo is finite, so having an ability to have endless ammo, while does not directly make you more powerful, it is desirable
There are other examples I could use.
For example in GW2
You can unlock special merchants
Gain faster run speeds while out of combat, this becomes handy when you are just traveling around, but does not give you any combat advantage
An ability called Gliding can be unlocked, is super handy as it helps prevent you from dying to falling damage, but like the run speed, it does not in fact give you any advantage in a fight.
Another common mastery line in GW2 is being able to open specific kinds of chests. Does not give you any combat advantage, but does give you access to more loot.
So there are many kinds of systems that can be put in place, that are not simple "This gives you +1 damage" that are things players will aspire for, and work towards.
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
A Tactical Advantage? Oh now we playing some slippery slope words.
Tactical advantage could be being able to set a siege catapult on a hill, it does not suddenly make the Catapult better, stronger, or faster, but it's placement allows you to hit a target that cannot return fire to your catapult
Just like being able to get to a location faster, does not in any way mean you will not get destroyed by a superior fighting force that is there attacking your point already
Being able to glide to safety if you fall off a cliff, is not the same as getting a +1 damage to your attacks. One simply allows you to move around, the other directly augments your ability to win the encounter
If you wanted to play "Oh that's a tactical advantage" then everything is Vertical
No matter what, and Horizontal Progression is a bullshit buzzword to you, is it really a bullshit buzzword to you? because fuck all, even getting a new dye color could be a tactical advantage if used right.
Funny you mentioned dye color, everyone knew you had to dye your gear all black to take advantage of the cover of the shadows.
No way will I ever agree the superior speed or ability to escape damage from falling, isn't an advantage .
Years of playing DAOC, EVE and even now in 7D2D, I take parkour 4 and run every speed /stamina bonus in order to keep one step ahead of the zombies and avoid breaking legs after falling off a building.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
Yeah, I agree. I've struggled to think of "horizontal" progression that doesn't give more power. And in some cases, like you mentioned, it's pretty big power.
Even gaining missile weapons, at the same power as melee, it makes a big difference if you can plunk a few arrows into an opponent before they get to you. And it matters just as much in PvE, as far as the outcome.
Choice
OR (instead of AND)
That's how you make horizontal progression genuinely horizontal. Think of ESO or Wildstar's limited action bars.
You can only use a new skill if you remove an old one. You gain something, but lose something else. The player is then faced with a choice (the heart of roleplaying....) about which skill they want to use. As long as each skill is roughly the same in power, then unlocking new skills would remain horizontal progression. You're giving the player more and more choices, but they are still limited in how many things they can have at once.
So, using examples above.....
You unlock increased run speed as a trait. But, that means you have to untrait something else, say a damage bonus. So, you can run faster, but do less damage.
You unlock increased resistance against elemental damage, making you better against generic mages who do a lot of elemental damage. But, in order to have that new elemental resistance, you have to un-slot increased physical resistance, making you worse against the melee train.
You unlock missiles for your ship, allowing you to engage in higher-damage and higher-range combat. But, that missile bay takes the place of a laser turrent, so you lose a lot of close-combat ability.
Horizontal progression is cool, but so is vertical progression. I only care about developing my character in a game, so it's one or the other for me. What I want is vertical progression where old content is not made obsolete. So far, I think FF14 does it right with scaling down your character to old content. What they do wrong by doing this is making the content easier over time. As a casual, I'd love to play through end game grouping content and earn end game gear and rewards, but at my own pace without ever feeling like I have to keep up with other people or a new patch will release making my progress meaningless.
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
Your game fetish only works if there are limited games so more player base can conquer the leadership learning curve and actually learn to play the game as intended, instead of avoiding uncomfortable scenario's like running a 500-man battlegroup. You're trying to capitalize on training your employees, aka customers, to lead battlegroups, run 8mans, and solo PvP. You need less choice in games on purpose and more incentive to play. Without incentive, you'll just be a has been dusty game controller I found 18 years later in a closet.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
Horizontal progression is cool, but so is vertical progression. I only care about developing my character in a game, so it's one or the other for me. What I want is vertical progression where old content is not made obsolete. So far, I think FF14 does it right with scaling down your character to old content. What they do wrong by doing this is making the content easier over time. As a casual, I'd love to play through end game grouping content and earn end game gear and rewards, but at my own pace without ever feeling like I have to keep up with other people or a new patch will release making my progress meaningless.
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
I agree with you, except for using Scaling to accomplish the goals desired.
It seems obvious to me, after some thought on this subject, that true Horizontal Progression isn't very interesting. It can be for some game types, such as battle ships or mech style games. But not for any game where the Character is primary.
Horizontal progression is cool, but so is vertical progression. I only care about developing my character in a game, so it's one or the other for me. What I want is vertical progression where old content is not made obsolete. So far, I think FF14 does it right with scaling down your character to old content. What they do wrong by doing this is making the content easier over time. As a casual, I'd love to play through end game grouping content and earn end game gear and rewards, but at my own pace without ever feeling like I have to keep up with other people or a new patch will release making my progress meaningless.
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
I agree with you, except for using Scaling to accomplish the goals desired.
It seems obvious to me, after some thought on this subject, that true Horizontal Progression isn't very interesting. It can be for some game types, such as battle ships or mech style games. But not for any game where the Character is primary.
This sounds like a big change in opinion for you! You've been on the side of horizontal progression and how it would be a massive benefit for MMORPGs for a long time now.
What's changed your mind?
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Horizontal progression is cool, but so is vertical progression. I only care about developing my character in a game, so it's one or the other for me. What I want is vertical progression where old content is not made obsolete. So far, I think FF14 does it right with scaling down your character to old content. What they do wrong by doing this is making the content easier over time. As a casual, I'd love to play through end game grouping content and earn end game gear and rewards, but at my own pace without ever feeling like I have to keep up with other people or a new patch will release making my progress meaningless.
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
I agree with you, except for using Scaling to accomplish the goals desired.
It seems obvious to me, after some thought on this subject, that true Horizontal Progression isn't very interesting. It can be for some game types, such as battle ships or mech style games. But not for any game where the Character is primary.
This sounds like a big change in opinion for you! You've been on the side of horizontal progression and how it would be a massive benefit for MMORPGs for a long time now.
What's changed your mind?
I know, I'm being a little wishy-washy, right? I'm struggling with it all right now. I didn't quite realize what you were getting at until that last post of yours. See, I always thought that even horizontal had a degree of vertical to it, because switch-outs of abilities (long term? permanent?) didn't occur to me for a fantasy game. (Yeah, I know, Gemstones have been done, but that's different than overall abilities.)
I'd still play a true horizontal game as you suggest, if the rest of it were the great sandbox world simulation that I want. My struggle is how that plays pertaining to my character(s) and how well I'd like it. I'm still wishy-washing my way through that idea, even now.
I remember horizontal progression in both of the Everquest games....It just felt like ways of trying to get you to play (and pay) longer......
Everything they do is "ways of trying to get you to play (and pay) longer." The point is whether they find enough players that like what they offer enough to do that.
I remember horizontal progression in both of the Everquest games....It just felt like ways of trying to get you to play (and pay) longer......
Everything they do is "ways of trying to get you to play (and pay) longer." The point is whether they find enough players that like what they offer enough to do that.
Whats funny is no matter how many AAs they added it never seemed to be enough.....If you had 1k AAs the group would want 2k...if you had 2k they would want 4k....and it never ends.....Everquest went from a game where everyone was accepted to only the elite few were accepted..... and that was pretty much the beginning of the end for forced group MMOs.
Horizontal progression is cool, but so is vertical progression. I only care about developing my character in a game, so it's one or the other for me. What I want is vertical progression where old content is not made obsolete. So far, I think FF14 does it right with scaling down your character to old content. What they do wrong by doing this is making the content easier over time. As a casual, I'd love to play through end game grouping content and earn end game gear and rewards, but at my own pace without ever feeling like I have to keep up with other people or a new patch will release making my progress meaningless.
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
I agree with you, except for using Scaling to accomplish the goals desired.
It seems obvious to me, after some thought on this subject, that true Horizontal Progression isn't very interesting. It can be for some game types, such as battle ships or mech style games. But not for any game where the Character is primary.
This sounds like a big change in opinion for you! You've been on the side of horizontal progression and how it would be a massive benefit for MMORPGs for a long time now.
What's changed your mind?
I know, I'm being a little wishy-washy, right? I'm struggling with it all right now. I didn't quite realize what you were getting at until that last post of yours. See, I always thought that even horizontal had a degree of vertical to it, because switch-outs of abilities (long term? permanent?) didn't occur to me for a fantasy game. (Yeah, I know, Gemstones have been done, but that's different than overall abilities.)
I'd still play a true horizontal game as you suggest, if the rest of it were the great sandbox world simulation that I want. My struggle is how that plays pertaining to my character(s) and how well I'd like it. I'm still wishy-washing my way through that idea, even now.
Well, it's not like you have many examples to lean on :P So, it's all kinda academic until someone bothers to actually build an MMORPG based on horizontal progression. I was hoping that would be CU, but, well, you know.....
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Horizontal progression is cool, but so is vertical progression. I only care about developing my character in a game, so it's one or the other for me. What I want is vertical progression where old content is not made obsolete. So far, I think FF14 does it right with scaling down your character to old content. What they do wrong by doing this is making the content easier over time. As a casual, I'd love to play through end game grouping content and earn end game gear and rewards, but at my own pace without ever feeling like I have to keep up with other people or a new patch will release making my progress meaningless.
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
I agree with you, except for using Scaling to accomplish the goals desired.
It seems obvious to me, after some thought on this subject, that true Horizontal Progression isn't very interesting. It can be for some game types, such as battle ships or mech style games. But not for any game where the Character is primary.
This sounds like a big change in opinion for you! You've been on the side of horizontal progression and how it would be a massive benefit for MMORPGs for a long time now.
What's changed your mind?
I know, I'm being a little wishy-washy, right? I'm struggling with it all right now. I didn't quite realize what you were getting at until that last post of yours. See, I always thought that even horizontal had a degree of vertical to it, because switch-outs of abilities (long term? permanent?) didn't occur to me for a fantasy game. (Yeah, I know, Gemstones have been done, but that's different than overall abilities.)
I'd still play a true horizontal game as you suggest, if the rest of it were the great sandbox world simulation that I want. My struggle is how that plays pertaining to my character(s) and how well I'd like it. I'm still wishy-washing my way through that idea, even now.
Well, it's not like you have many examples to lean on :P So, it's all kinda academic until someone bothers to actually build an MMORPG based on horizontal progression. I was hoping that would be CU, but, well, you know.....
It's going to take some strong leadership with the company that does it, to overcome the blind objections. They're going to have to do it right, or the concept will get a bad rep for years to come.
The Horizontal Progression system is going to have to be interesting. As I've thought about it, I came to the idea that maybe the best way to do it is to start the Characters off as a generalized version of their Class, then allow the players to refine their character into a specialized version of their choosing, to build the character(s) that they truly want.
Maybe they could even go outside of their class of choice to build a multi-class character. Or even a character with special, "gifted talents" to enhance their characters(s) in unusual ways.
And as I say this, it seems to me that you've said some of it before. Such as "specialization."
(Again, it's the rest of the game, worldly, exciting, and more interesting, and void of the issues of current offerings, that will set such a game truly apart.)
Horizontal progression is cool, but so is vertical progression. I only care about developing my character in a game, so it's one or the other for me. What I want is vertical progression where old content is not made obsolete. So far, I think FF14 does it right with scaling down your character to old content. What they do wrong by doing this is making the content easier over time. As a casual, I'd love to play through end game grouping content and earn end game gear and rewards, but at my own pace without ever feeling like I have to keep up with other people or a new patch will release making my progress meaningless.
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
You cannot have a game that both respects your time, and is not marketed to casuals
Hardcore players always need something new and better to strive for, and that means to cater to them you have to invalidate older content with new, better, harder, stuff for them to work for
Simply put, you cannot have both a game that allows you go at your own pace and is also designed with the hardcore player in mind
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I propose that if horizontal progression is truly horizontal that it is also not progression. If ability A and ability B are truly equal in power, then playing the game to earn ability B when you already have ability A is a waste of time.
Noodle on that.
Imagine, if Ability A is Melee, using Mace, and Ability B is Ranged, using a Longbow
Neither really overpowers the other, but, learning Longbow is a sense of Progression
A lot of this also depends on the game.
To use a direct example, I enjoy a game called Dungeons and Dragons Online that is quite in-depth with their mechanics, and just like the game Dungeons and Dragons, some mobs have resistances, like Skeletons take full damage from blunt, but only half from slash/piercing, so making sure you can use a mace, which is blunt damage, is adventitious to you, even if the mace might end up doing less damage then say that longsword you are proficient with.
Equally so, using DDO again.
Imagine is Ability A is Fire Based, and Ability B is Acid based, it's to your advantage to unlock Ability B, if you end up fighting mobs that immune to Fire damage, like say Fire Elementals, for example
There is also other cases, like unlocking QOL abilities. For example, again with DDO, Ammo is finite, so having an ability to have endless ammo, while does not directly make you more powerful, it is desirable
There are other examples I could use.
For example in GW2
You can unlock special merchants
Gain faster run speeds while out of combat, this becomes handy when you are just traveling around, but does not give you any combat advantage
An ability called Gliding can be unlocked, is super handy as it helps prevent you from dying to falling damage, but like the run speed, it does not in fact give you any advantage in a fight.
Another common mastery line in GW2 is being able to open specific kinds of chests. Does not give you any combat advantage, but does give you access to more loot.
So there are many kinds of systems that can be put in place, that are not simple "This gives you +1 damage" that are things players will aspire for, and work towards.
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
A Tactical Advantage? Oh now we playing some slippery slope words.
Tactical advantage could be being able to set a siege catapult on a hill, it does not suddenly make the Catapult better, stronger, or faster, but it's placement allows you to hit a target that cannot return fire to your catapult
Just like being able to get to a location faster, does not in any way mean you will not get destroyed by a superior fighting force that is there attacking your point already
Being able to glide to safety if you fall off a cliff, is not the same as getting a +1 damage to your attacks. One simply allows you to move around, the other directly augments your ability to win the encounter
If you wanted to play "Oh that's a tactical advantage" then everything is Vertical
No matter what, and Horizontal Progression is a bullshit buzzword to you, is it really a bullshit buzzword to you? because fuck all, even getting a new dye color could be a tactical advantage if used right.
Funny you mentioned dye color, everyone knew you had to dye your gear all black to take advantage of the cover of the shadows.
No way will I ever agree the superior speed or ability to escape damage from falling, isn't an advantage .
Years of playing DAOC, EVE and even now in 7D2D, I take parkour 4 and run every speed /stamina bonus in order to keep one step ahead of the zombies and avoid breaking legs after falling off a building.
Keep in mind the run speed is out of combat only, so, if you take any damage at all, you're back to running no faster than anyone else
Gliding, was awesome, but you still ain't going to win a fight with it.
To me, Parkour abilities are horizontal, they may give you a mobility or transverse edge, but they do not make your character directly stronger, (unless they can be used in combat), so when it comes to a fight, or surviving a conflict, you are no better off then anyone else, even if you could run, jump, and climb up the cliffs to see that cool vista better then anyone else in the game.
Again, if you are going to fuss about "tactical" then, there is no such thing as horizontal progression, because by the limier you put out, you cannot progress in a horizontal manner if any progress is viewed as a tactical/vertical advantage.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I propose that if horizontal progression is truly horizontal that it is also not progression. If ability A and ability B are truly equal in power, then playing the game to earn ability B when you already have ability A is a waste of time.
Noodle on that.
Imagine, if Ability A is Melee, using Mace, and Ability B is Ranged, using a Longbow
Neither really overpowers the other, but, learning Longbow is a sense of Progression
A lot of this also depends on the game.
To use a direct example, I enjoy a game called Dungeons and Dragons Online that is quite in-depth with their mechanics, and just like the game Dungeons and Dragons, some mobs have resistances, like Skeletons take full damage from blunt, but only half from slash/piercing, so making sure you can use a mace, which is blunt damage, is adventitious to you, even if the mace might end up doing less damage then say that longsword you are proficient with.
Equally so, using DDO again.
Imagine is Ability A is Fire Based, and Ability B is Acid based, it's to your advantage to unlock Ability B, if you end up fighting mobs that immune to Fire damage, like say Fire Elementals, for example
There is also other cases, like unlocking QOL abilities. For example, again with DDO, Ammo is finite, so having an ability to have endless ammo, while does not directly make you more powerful, it is desirable
There are other examples I could use.
For example in GW2
You can unlock special merchants
Gain faster run speeds while out of combat, this becomes handy when you are just traveling around, but does not give you any combat advantage
An ability called Gliding can be unlocked, is super handy as it helps prevent you from dying to falling damage, but like the run speed, it does not in fact give you any advantage in a fight.
Another common mastery line in GW2 is being able to open specific kinds of chests. Does not give you any combat advantage, but does give you access to more loot.
So there are many kinds of systems that can be put in place, that are not simple "This gives you +1 damage" that are things players will aspire for, and work towards.
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
A Tactical Advantage? Oh now we playing some slippery slope words.
Tactical advantage could be being able to set a siege catapult on a hill, it does not suddenly make the Catapult better, stronger, or faster, but it's placement allows you to hit a target that cannot return fire to your catapult
Just like being able to get to a location faster, does not in any way mean you will not get destroyed by a superior fighting force that is there attacking your point already
Being able to glide to safety if you fall off a cliff, is not the same as getting a +1 damage to your attacks. One simply allows you to move around, the other directly augments your ability to win the encounter
If you wanted to play "Oh that's a tactical advantage" then everything is Vertical
No matter what, and Horizontal Progression is a bullshit buzzword to you, is it really a bullshit buzzword to you? because fuck all, even getting a new dye color could be a tactical advantage if used right.
Funny you mentioned dye color, everyone knew you had to dye your gear all black to take advantage of the cover of the shadows.
No way will I ever agree the superior speed or ability to escape damage from falling, isn't an advantage .
Years of playing DAOC, EVE and even now in 7D2D, I take parkour 4 and run every speed /stamina bonus in order to keep one step ahead of the zombies and avoid breaking legs after falling off a building.
Keep in mind the run speed is out of combat only, so, if you take any damage at all, you're back to running no faster than anyone else
Gliding, was awesome, but you still ain't going to win a fight with it.
To me, Parkour abilities are horizontal, they may give you a mobility or transverse edge, but they do not make your character directly stronger, (unless they can be used in combat), so when it comes to a fight, or surviving a conflict, you are no better off then anyone else, even if you could run, jump, and climb up the cliffs to see that cool vista better then anyone else in the game.
Again, if you are going to fuss about "tactical" then, there is no such thing as horizontal progression, because by the limier you put out, you cannot progress in a horizontal manner if any progress is viewed as a tactical/vertical advantage.
I agree, there is almost nothing in a multiplayer game which cannot be considered vertical progression.
If Parkour lets me take the high ground while others can't even get at me, it's an advantage.
Not sure why you think tactical advantages like getting to a destination first isn't important.
High run speed in DAOC worked as you said, combat broke it. But since max speed was capped as a Minstrel I had the responsibility of deciding to engage or not when approaching another group.
If my 8 man came across the Zerg which often didn't have everyone at max we might veer off trying to get some groups to peel off to come fight on more fair terms.
We might also see the Torcan clan or the General's 8 man and keep our distance knowing to face them one on one was a sure trip back to the portal keep.
Occasionally were able to get support to come join and we even won a few fights against these very skilled teams with the extra help.
In EVE it was very important to get ahead of your opponent somehow as there was a huge advantage of your fleet was already in system waiting for your opponent to jump in.
You could quickly put up warp bubbles, orient the tacklers around the gate, and if a huge fleet surprised you then kick in the afterburners and warp drives and strategically withdraw.
One thing about PVP games with item loss, it is often more important to not lose and save your assets than it is to win at a very high cost.
Many fights in EVE are a game of cat and mouse, each side trying to get some sort of positional or numeric superiority without the other side realizing they have been outplayed before the shooting ever starts.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think of horizontal progression as providing contextual advantage.
In Ultima Online a silver mace would allow you to mow through liches, and while you could kill them with regular weapons, the silver weapons allowed you to farm liches. However, if a PK showed up your sliver weapon offered no advantage.
Imagine the same thing for different dungeons: Fire gear to hunt imps, cold gear to hunt ice drakes - all the different gear that offers advantages in a context but do nothing for vertical progression in a PvP context.
Suddenly, a PK hunting other players in the imp dungeon has to make a choice. Does he wear the fire protection gear or wear stuff to protect against player attacks? If he's outfitted to only fight other players he'll be in some hurt should he aggro a couple of imps.
The whole reason we're having this discussion is because all the current MMORPGs have dungeons that are little more than pretty pictures - there is no context anymore - and everything is defeated through gear score instead of assembling pieces that work best in the context. My Uber Sword is equally effective against fire imps, liches, ice drakes and I already know the build of the PK that will show up before he logs on for the day.
Something else I miss in UO is the different ways you could attack someone. We had dungeon thieves which could be very easy to kill if you could catch them (these guys were usually no physical threat). Instead, these days all PvP is just a gear score match up.
Many fights in EVE are a game of cat and mouse, each side trying to get some sort of positional or numeric superiority without the other side realizing they have been outplayed before the shooting ever starts.
I think all modern MMOPGS should be reduced to chatbox on your phone:
Player 1: "I'm attacking you now."
Player 2: "Okay, my gear score is 465."
Player 1: "Dammit, I'm at 390."
Player 2: "Wow, didn't think I'd win that one."
Player 1: "Sending you a .gif of the sword you won."
I propose that if horizontal progression is truly horizontal that it is also not progression. If ability A and ability B are truly equal in power, then playing the game to earn ability B when you already have ability A is a waste of time.
Noodle on that.
Imagine, if Ability A is Melee, using Mace, and Ability B is Ranged, using a Longbow
Neither really overpowers the other, but, learning Longbow is a sense of Progression
A lot of this also depends on the game.
To use a direct example, I enjoy a game called Dungeons and Dragons Online that is quite in-depth with their mechanics, and just like the game Dungeons and Dragons, some mobs have resistances, like Skeletons take full damage from blunt, but only half from slash/piercing, so making sure you can use a mace, which is blunt damage, is adventitious to you, even if the mace might end up doing less damage then say that longsword you are proficient with.
Equally so, using DDO again.
Imagine is Ability A is Fire Based, and Ability B is Acid based, it's to your advantage to unlock Ability B, if you end up fighting mobs that immune to Fire damage, like say Fire Elementals, for example
There is also other cases, like unlocking QOL abilities. For example, again with DDO, Ammo is finite, so having an ability to have endless ammo, while does not directly make you more powerful, it is desirable
There are other examples I could use.
For example in GW2
You can unlock special merchants
Gain faster run speeds while out of combat, this becomes handy when you are just traveling around, but does not give you any combat advantage
An ability called Gliding can be unlocked, is super handy as it helps prevent you from dying to falling damage, but like the run speed, it does not in fact give you any advantage in a fight.
Another common mastery line in GW2 is being able to open specific kinds of chests. Does not give you any combat advantage, but does give you access to more loot.
So there are many kinds of systems that can be put in place, that are not simple "This gives you +1 damage" that are things players will aspire for, and work towards.
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
A Tactical Advantage? Oh now we playing some slippery slope words.
Tactical advantage could be being able to set a siege catapult on a hill, it does not suddenly make the Catapult better, stronger, or faster, but it's placement allows you to hit a target that cannot return fire to your catapult
Just like being able to get to a location faster, does not in any way mean you will not get destroyed by a superior fighting force that is there attacking your point already
Being able to glide to safety if you fall off a cliff, is not the same as getting a +1 damage to your attacks. One simply allows you to move around, the other directly augments your ability to win the encounter
If you wanted to play "Oh that's a tactical advantage" then everything is Vertical
No matter what, and Horizontal Progression is a bullshit buzzword to you, is it really a bullshit buzzword to you? because fuck all, even getting a new dye color could be a tactical advantage if used right.
Funny you mentioned dye color, everyone knew you had to dye your gear all black to take advantage of the cover of the shadows.
No way will I ever agree the superior speed or ability to escape damage from falling, isn't an advantage .
Years of playing DAOC, EVE and even now in 7D2D, I take parkour 4 and run every speed /stamina bonus in order to keep one step ahead of the zombies and avoid breaking legs after falling off a building.
Keep in mind the run speed is out of combat only, so, if you take any damage at all, you're back to running no faster than anyone else
Gliding, was awesome, but you still ain't going to win a fight with it.
To me, Parkour abilities are horizontal, they may give you a mobility or transverse edge, but they do not make your character directly stronger, (unless they can be used in combat), so when it comes to a fight, or surviving a conflict, you are no better off then anyone else, even if you could run, jump, and climb up the cliffs to see that cool vista better then anyone else in the game.
Again, if you are going to fuss about "tactical" then, there is no such thing as horizontal progression, because by the limier you put out, you cannot progress in a horizontal manner if any progress is viewed as a tactical/vertical advantage.
I agree, there is almost nothing in a multiplayer game which cannot be considered vertical progression.
If Parkour lets me take the high ground while others can't even get at me, it's an advantage.
Not sure why you think tactical advantages like getting to a destination first isn't important.
High run speed in DAOC worked as you said, combat broke it. But since max speed was capped as a Minstrel I had the responsibility of deciding to engage or not when approaching another group.
If my 8 man came across the Zerg which often didn't have everyone at max we might veer off trying to get some groups to peel off to come fight on more fair terms.
We might also see the Torcan clan or the General's 8 man and keep our distance knowing to face them one on one was a sure trip back to the portal keep.
Occasionally were able to get support to come join and we even won a few fights against these very skilled teams with the extra help.
In EVE it was very important to get ahead of your opponent somehow as there was a huge advantage of your fleet was already in system waiting for your opponent to jump in.
You could quickly put up warp bubbles, orient the tacklers around the gate, and if a huge fleet surprised you then kick in the afterburners and warp drives and strategically withdraw.
One thing about PVP games with item loss, it is often more important to not lose and save your assets than it is to win at a very high cost.
Many fights in EVE are a game of cat and mouse, each side trying to get some sort of positional or numeric superiority without the other side realizing they have been outplayed before the shooting ever starts.
Honestly, Ranged Combat in games like DAOC sucked in contrast to a game like GW2. So it's not as badass in GW2 as it might sound in DAOC or EVE I suppose.
But again, if you use those kinds of terms, then All Progress is Vertical, and thus Horizontal Progress is not only a myth, but a contradiction in terms.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think of horizontal progression as providing contextual advantage.
In Ultima Online a silver mace would allow you to mow through liches, and while you could kill them with regular weapons, the silver weapons allowed you to farm liches. However, if a PK showed up your sliver weapon offered no advantage.
Imagine the same thing for different dungeons: Fire gear to hunt imps, cold gear to hunt ice drakes - all the different gear that offers advantages in a context but do nothing for vertical progression in a PvP context.
Suddenly, a PK hunting other players in the imp dungeon has to make a choice. Does he wear the fire protection gear or wear stuff to protect against player attacks? If he's outfitted to only fight other players he'll be in some hurt should he aggro a couple of imps.
DDO offers this, but DDO is not a PvP Game.
Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO.
The last thing I want when doing a dungeon crawl is some asshole attacking me, no idea why anyone would think that is fun.
I mean, fuck all, if that is what you love, I hope you find a game you can enjoy, but to me, I would sooner have a mule kick me in the nuts then deal with that bullshit.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO.
The last thing I want when doing a dungeon crawl is some asshole attacking me, no idea why anyone would think that is fun.
I mean, fuck all, if that is what you love, I hope you find a game you can enjoy, but to me, I would sooner have a mule kick me in the nuts then deal with that bullshit.
It is possible to have fun with it; however, so few developers put in the time to figure out what makes PKs effective so that it may be countered.
I reached that conclusion when I saw the "mitigations" developers seem to come up with...
I've yet to see a developer post that
1)showed an understanding of the problem 2)showed an understanding of the advantages PKs bring 3)proposed fixes that addressed 1 or 2.
Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO.
Hard to argue with this... I was only answering in the context of how horizontal progression is superior to vertical progression, IMHO.
Follow any vertical progression and see that at level 1 your weapon does 10% damage on MOBS and at level 100 it does exactly the same. Vertical progression is the McDonald's of gaming and adopting makes game programming just switching out graphics. It is stupid.
My noob rusty sword does 10% against wolves. My Vorpal Sword of the Goddess does 10% against fire drakes.
^--- Level 100 is a repeat of level 1 with slightly different graphics. It is the same stupid shit.
Comments
It's pretty easy for anyone to get max level and max stats with minimal effort. Literally, in a month you can be max level and have 1 character in Ascended gear.
The first time is the hardest, after you get one up, making alts is super easy.
The largest grind in GW2 is mainly for QOL features and Cosmetics
I would assume it's more about the fact it's perfectly viable and needed to not play what is the "strongest" or "best" tier of ship and each have their own roles and purpose despite having different power of effectiveness.
I can't speak for EVE in full confidence though so someone can correct me
Even gaining missile weapons, at the same power as melee, it makes a big difference if you can plunk a few arrows into an opponent before they get to you. And it matters just as much in PvE, as far as the outcome.
Once upon a time....
No way will I ever agree the superior speed or ability to escape damage from falling, isn't an advantage .
Years of playing DAOC, EVE and even now in 7D2D, I take parkour 4 and run every speed /stamina bonus in order to keep one step ahead of the zombies and avoid breaking legs after falling off a building.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Once upon a time....
The way current MMORPG's are designed as seasonal content, I don't even bother wasting my time playing them anymore. I'd love to again someday, but I refuse to waste my free time on a game that doesn't respect my time or that are designed with casual gamers in mind. Some games, like ESO are designed for casuals, except their content is brain dead easy where you spend the majority of your time (leveling).
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
It seems obvious to me, after some thought on this subject, that true Horizontal Progression isn't very interesting. It can be for some game types, such as battle ships or mech style games. But not for any game where the Character is primary.
Once upon a time....
I'm struggling with it all right now.
I didn't quite realize what you were getting at until that last post of yours.
See, I always thought that even horizontal had a degree of vertical to it, because switch-outs of abilities (long term? permanent?) didn't occur to me for a fantasy game. (Yeah, I know, Gemstones have been done, but that's different than overall abilities.)
I'd still play a true horizontal game as you suggest, if the rest of it were the great sandbox world simulation that I want. My struggle is how that plays pertaining to my character(s) and how well I'd like it. I'm still wishy-washing my way through that idea, even now.
Once upon a time....
The point is whether they find enough players that like what they offer enough to do that.
Once upon a time....
Whats funny is no matter how many AAs they added it never seemed to be enough.....If you had 1k AAs the group would want 2k...if you had 2k they would want 4k....and it never ends.....Everquest went from a game where everyone was accepted to only the elite few were accepted..... and that was pretty much the beginning of the end for forced group MMOs.
Well, it's not like you have many examples to lean on :P So, it's all kinda academic until someone bothers to actually build an MMORPG based on horizontal progression. I was hoping that would be CU, but, well, you know.....
They're going to have to do it right, or the concept will get a bad rep for years to come.
The Horizontal Progression system is going to have to be interesting.
As I've thought about it, I came to the idea that maybe the best way to do it is to start the Characters off as a generalized version of their Class, then allow the players to refine their character into a specialized version of their choosing, to build the character(s) that they truly want.
Maybe they could even go outside of their class of choice to build a multi-class character.
Or even a character with special, "gifted talents" to enhance their characters(s) in unusual ways.
And as I say this, it seems to me that you've said some of it before. Such as "specialization."
(Again, it's the rest of the game, worldly, exciting, and more interesting, and void of the issues of current offerings, that will set such a game truly apart.)
Once upon a time....
Hardcore players always need something new and better to strive for, and that means to cater to them you have to invalidate older content with new, better, harder, stuff for them to work for
Simply put, you cannot have both a game that allows you go at your own pace and is also designed with the hardcore player in mind
Gliding, was awesome, but you still ain't going to win a fight with it.
To me, Parkour abilities are horizontal, they may give you a mobility or transverse edge, but they do not make your character directly stronger, (unless they can be used in combat), so when it comes to a fight, or surviving a conflict, you are no better off then anyone else, even if you could run, jump, and climb up the cliffs to see that cool vista better then anyone else in the game.
Again, if you are going to fuss about "tactical" then, there is no such thing as horizontal progression, because by the limier you put out, you cannot progress in a horizontal manner if any progress is viewed as a tactical/vertical advantage.
If Parkour lets me take the high ground while others can't even get at me, it's an advantage.
Not sure why you think tactical advantages like getting to a destination first isn't important.
High run speed in DAOC worked as you said, combat broke it. But since max speed was capped as a Minstrel I had the responsibility of deciding to engage or not when approaching another group.
If my 8 man came across the Zerg which often didn't have everyone at max we might veer off trying to get some groups to peel off to come fight on more fair terms.
We might also see the Torcan clan or the General's 8 man and keep our distance knowing to face them one on one was a sure trip back to the portal keep.
Occasionally were able to get support to come join and we even won a few fights against these very skilled teams with the extra help.
In EVE it was very important to get ahead of your opponent somehow as there was a huge advantage of your fleet was already in system waiting for your opponent to jump in.
You could quickly put up warp bubbles, orient the tacklers around the gate, and if a huge fleet surprised you then kick in the afterburners and warp drives and strategically withdraw.
One thing about PVP games with item loss, it is often more important to not lose and save your assets than it is to win at a very high cost.
Many fights in EVE are a game of cat and mouse, each side trying to get some sort of positional or numeric superiority without the other side realizing they have been outplayed before the shooting ever starts.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In Ultima Online a silver mace would allow you to mow through liches, and while you could kill them with regular weapons, the silver weapons allowed you to farm liches. However, if a PK showed up your sliver weapon offered no advantage.
Imagine the same thing for different dungeons: Fire gear to hunt imps, cold gear to hunt ice drakes - all the different gear that offers advantages in a context but do nothing for vertical progression in a PvP context.
Suddenly, a PK hunting other players in the imp dungeon has to make a choice. Does he wear the fire protection gear or wear stuff to protect against player attacks? If he's outfitted to only fight other players he'll be in some hurt should he aggro a couple of imps.
The whole reason we're having this discussion is because all the current MMORPGs have dungeons that are little more than pretty pictures - there is no context anymore - and everything is defeated through gear score instead of assembling pieces that work best in the context. My Uber Sword is equally effective against fire imps, liches, ice drakes and I already know the build of the PK that will show up before he logs on for the day.
Something else I miss in UO is the different ways you could attack someone. We had dungeon thieves which could be very easy to kill if you could catch them (these guys were usually no physical threat). Instead, these days all PvP is just a gear score match up.
Pathetic.
Player 1: "I'm attacking you now."
Player 2: "Okay, my gear score is 465."
Player 1: "Dammit, I'm at 390."
Player 2: "Wow, didn't think I'd win that one."
Player 1: "Sending you a .gif of the sword you won."
But again, if you use those kinds of terms, then All Progress is Vertical, and thus Horizontal Progress is not only a myth, but a contradiction in terms.
Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO.
The last thing I want when doing a dungeon crawl is some asshole attacking me, no idea why anyone would think that is fun.
I mean, fuck all, if that is what you love, I hope you find a game you can enjoy, but to me, I would sooner have a mule kick me in the nuts then deal with that bullshit.
I reached that conclusion when I saw the "mitigations" developers seem to come up with...
I've yet to see a developer post that
1)showed an understanding of the problem
2)showed an understanding of the advantages PKs bring
3)proposed fixes that addressed 1 or 2.
Follow any vertical progression and see that at level 1 your weapon does 10% damage on MOBS and at level 100 it does exactly the same. Vertical progression is the McDonald's of gaming and adopting makes game programming just switching out graphics. It is stupid.
My noob rusty sword does 10% against wolves.
My Vorpal Sword of the Goddess does 10% against fire drakes.
^--- Level 100 is a repeat of level 1 with slightly different graphics. It is the same stupid shit.