"expectations were *massively* exceeded"

Amaranthar

From Tim Cotton, about Playable Worlds...
https://twitter.com/CottenIO/status/1712896108630802858?s=20 

This has me excited. We've talked about Raph Koster and the game he's making at Playable Worlds, and while we're still in "wait and see" mode, this sounds very promising. 

Tim mentions "Explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killers’ Dream Sandbox Game", but Raph himself was in a recent thread here and pointed out that he'd never again allow PKers to ruin his games, like in UO. 
I think he'll probably use something similar to SWG's PvP switch, likely a more advanced version though. 

Amaranthar

Oh, btw...
"Simulation AI in Every Meter^2" 
I'm not exactly sure what this means, but I like it! 

Kyleran

Amaranthar

Haha, hope is all that I have left. 
But I do have faith in Raph. I think this is his dream, and I don't think he'll fail. 

Angrakhan

I had high hopes for EQ Next too, and we see where that landed. Problem with things that sound too good to be true, they usually are.

Amaranthar

Angrakhan said:

I had high hopes for EQ Next too, and we see where that landed. Problem with things that sound too good to be true, they usually are.

When man first took to the skies, it was accomplished by bicycle people, not train wreck people. 


Although, EQ was not a "trainwreck", but they were definitely of the Themepark variety. 
You're comparing apples to oranges, me thinks. 

Amaranthar

Raph is looking more and more like Sean Connery as time goes by. 
Especially the eyebrows. 

Jees, you guys are funny. You complain that there's nothing to talk about, that the forums are slowing, MMORPGs are in disarray, etc., yet here is a topic to discuss and you refuse to. 

• THE MOST Living World.Exceeds UO & SWG
• Simulation AI in Every Meter^2
• Explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killers’ Dream Sandbox Game 

Just some things that are very "discussable." 

Terazon

I think because no one believes it.
Puff of air talk.  

Kyleran

Amaranthar said:

Raph is looking more and more like Sean Connery as time goes by. 
Especially the eyebrows. 

Jees, you guys are funny. You complain that there's nothing to talk about, that the forums are slowing, MMORPGs are in disarray, etc., yet here is a topic to discuss and you refuse to. 

• THE MOST Living World.Exceeds UO & SWG
• Simulation AI in Every Meter^2
• Explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killers’ Dream Sandbox Game 

Just some things that are very "discussable." 

It's the same promises made by every aging has been developer of the past 10 years or so.

Garriot, McQuaid, Jacobs and many more.

The time for promises, or even discussion is over....

Amaranthar

Terazon said:

I think because no one believes it.
Puff of air talk.  

What does belief have to do with discussions of those points in MMORPGs? 
I think it's because you hardcore Themepark Gamers don't want it. Pure and simple. 

But you know what? It's going to happen anyways. If not by Raph, by someone. Because there's no place else to go for MMORPGs. 

Amaranthar

Kyleran said:

Amaranthar said:

Raph is looking more and more like Sean Connery as time goes by. 
Especially the eyebrows. 

Jees, you guys are funny. You complain that there's nothing to talk about, that the forums are slowing, MMORPGs are in disarray, etc., yet here is a topic to discuss and you refuse to. 

• THE MOST Living World.Exceeds UO & SWG
• Simulation AI in Every Meter^2
• Explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killers’ Dream Sandbox Game 

Just some things that are very "discussable." 

It's the same promises made by every aging has been developer of the past 10 years or so.

Garriot, McQuaid, Jacobs and many more.

The time for promises, or even discussion is over....

You're kidding, right?
McQuaid and Jacobs never had a clue. They're games proved that much. 
But it does show that the concept is what gamers wanted for many years. They just weren't capable of doing it, being just as locked into the Themepark-powergap design as the good folks here. 

Garriott was locked into a core of supporters that were RMTers, and gamers widely recognized that he was making a game for THOSE guys and not for them. 
His lack of funding because of that was his problem. 

Brainy

IF they build a great game, then people will play.   Any team that builds an amazing MMO will see instant success.  They have to pull it off though.  Its all been said before, people are sick of them just talking then it turns out to be a nothing burger.

"Where's the beef"

Amaranthar

Brainy said:

IF they build a great game, then people will play.   Any team that builds an amazing MMO will see instant success.  They have to pull it off though.  Its all been said before, people are sick of them just talking then it turns out to be a nothing burger.

"Where's the beef"

It appears that they are growing the beef. It's gonna be a slaughterhouse when they pull it off. 

But my faith in Raph being beside the point,
there is still much to discuss over the concepts presented here and that's my point. 

Also, you are lumping Raph in with all the others. People who never showed any ability to design such a game. People who used catch phrases to advertise what gamers want, but never believed in it themselves. Never understood it themselves. 

Vrika

Amaranthar said:

Explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killers’ Dream Sandbox Game 

It's just another sandbox game that tries to succeed by cramming in more features than other games. That's not innovative and that's not new. AAA games have been using that technique to succeed as long as AAA games have existed.

Give us a dev who explains how his game will be better than others because it has less features. That would be innovation worth talking about.

cameltosis

I need some details to sink my teeth into. You know im a big fan of Raphs, but without some meat to digest i don't have much to say. Especially as i have no clue who the guy is who got excited! His joy means nothing to me!

Tiller

SWG was fun to me because it was Stars Wars first, sandbox MMO second. It was like living in the Star Wars world; in the prequels even which I grew up with. I'm sure this game will be fun, but I'd much rather play a new Star Wars sandbox MMO, yes I'm an old Star Wars fan; and SWG really drove that home for me, but I don't expect anything like it ever again.

Kyleran

Amaranthar said:

Terazon said:

I think because no one believes it.
Puff of air talk.  

What does belief have to do with discussions of those points in MMORPGs? 
I think it's because you hardcore Themepark Gamers don't want it. Pure and simple. 

But you know what? It's going to happen anyways. If not by Raph, by someone. Because there's no place else to go for MMORPGs. 

Themepark gamers?  I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up.

Prove me wrong.

Scot

I am willing as always to give them the benefit of the doubt; but also as always, I won't be putting my money in before launch and I urge you to wait for reviews before you do the same.

Brainy

Kyleran said:

Amaranthar said:

Terazon said:

I think because no one believes it.
Puff of air talk.  

What does belief have to do with discussions of those points in MMORPGs? 
I think it's because you hardcore Themepark Gamers don't want it. Pure and simple. 

But you know what? It's going to happen anyways. If not by Raph, by someone. Because there's no place else to go for MMORPGs. 

Themepark gamers?  I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up.

Prove me wrong.

UO would be my pick for the first real Sandbox.  Raph was a big part of that.

Brainy

Amaranthar said:

Brainy said:

IF they build a great game, then people will play.   Any team that builds an amazing MMO will see instant success.  They have to pull it off though.  Its all been said before, people are sick of them just talking then it turns out to be a nothing burger.

"Where's the beef"

It appears that they are growing the beef. It's gonna be a slaughterhouse when they pull it off. 

But my faith in Raph being beside the point,
there is still much to discuss over the concepts presented here and that's my point. 

Also, you are lumping Raph in with all the others. People who never showed any ability to design such a game. People who used catch phrases to advertise what gamers want, but never believed in it themselves. Never understood it themselves. 

Ok so here is why I think Raph has a problem and this doesn’t excite me YET.

1) Raph games that I have seen don’t have great MOB/DUNGEON pve.  Where is the raiding? Where are the boss mobs? The mechanics of mobs and bosses are usually bad.

2) I have yet to hear him come up with a good plan to allow PVE players to play in their own world/subsystem.  I have ZERO confidence that his new PVP politics system is going to prevent PVP players from dominating the game.  This will be his downfall AGAIN.  So until he announces PVE servers, then this will be his perpetual ball and chain dragging down the game for the majority of players.

3) Even if he does give PVE servers.  His game will be centered around PVP, these systems will be integrated into the game, constantly annoying PVE players.  This politics system will be toxic and who knows how many other systems will do the same.  Just like thieving, house stealing, looting stealing etc... in UO this will just be a constant stream of bug fixing for the PVE crowd, always too little too late.  The PVE crowd doesn’t have the patience to deal with this now.

Kyleran

Brainy said:

Kyleran said:

Amaranthar said:

Terazon said:

I think because no one believes it.
Puff of air talk.  

What does belief have to do with discussions of those points in MMORPGs? 
I think it's because you hardcore Themepark Gamers don't want it. Pure and simple. 

But you know what? It's going to happen anyways. If not by Raph, by someone. Because there's no place else to go for MMORPGs. 

Themepark gamers?  I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up.

Prove me wrong.

UO would be my pick for the first real Sandbox.  Raph was a big part of that.

Yeah, I know, but which of the 3 titles is still doing fairly well today vs hanging on by a thread or long gone?

Doesn't matter, I've don't have anything against Raph, the man is a legend in the industry, but it doesn't mean I'm going to kiss the ground he walks on. 

He's making a new game....yawn ..who isn't?

If / when it fully releases in 10 or 15 years maybe I'll give it a go, assuming I'm still alive of course.

Amaranthar

Kyleran said:

Amaranthar said:

Terazon said:

I think because no one believes it.
Puff of air talk.  

What does belief have to do with discussions of those points in MMORPGs? 
I think it's because you hardcore Themepark Gamers don't want it. Pure and simple. 

But you know what? It's going to happen anyways. If not by Raph, by someone. Because there's no place else to go for MMORPGs. 

Themepark gamers?  I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up.

Prove me wrong.

First off, I w2asn't talking to you, so I wasn't thinking about Eve. 

You're the one making the claim, prove you're right. List the Sandbox features in Eve. 
I honestly don't know what they are except for the drilling equipment that I think the game has, that you "build" on location? And moving the resources. Lets see....uh, that's all I can think of, but being unfamiliar with the actual game play beyond that and fighting. 

Oh wait, I assume customizing ships is in Eve, that's a sandbox feature IMO. 

Amaranthar

Brainy said:

Amaranthar said:

Brainy said:

IF they build a great game, then people will play.   Any team that builds an amazing MMO will see instant success.  They have to pull it off though.  Its all been said before, people are sick of them just talking then it turns out to be a nothing burger.

"Where's the beef"

It appears that they are growing the beef. It's gonna be a slaughterhouse when they pull it off. 

But my faith in Raph being beside the point,
there is still much to discuss over the concepts presented here and that's my point. 

Also, you are lumping Raph in with all the others. People who never showed any ability to design such a game. People who used catch phrases to advertise what gamers want, but never believed in it themselves. Never understood it themselves. 

Ok so here is why I think Raph has a problem and this doesn’t excite me YET.

1) Raph games that I have seen don’t have great MOB/DUNGEON pve.  Where is the raiding? Where are the boss mobs? The mechanics of mobs and bosses are usually bad.

2) I have yet to hear him come up with a good plan to allow PVE players to play in their own world/subsystem.  I have ZERO confidence that his new PVP politics system is going to prevent PVP players from dominating the game.  This will be his downfall AGAIN.  So until he announces PVE servers, then this will be his perpetual ball and chain dragging down the game for the majority of players.

3) Even if he does give PVE servers.  His game will be centered around PVP, these systems will be integrated into the game, constantly annoying PVE players.  This politics system will be toxic and who knows how many other systems will do the same.  Just like thieving, house stealing, looting stealing etc... in UO this will just be a constant stream of bug fixing for the PVE crowd, always too little too late.  The PVE crowd doesn’t have the patience to deal with this now.

Ok, fair post. 

1)
UO was very early in MMO development (being the first true MMO), and lag was a much bigger issue in those days. So MOBs had to be slowed down some for the many gamers who suffered extra lag due to gear and connection. 

But what about SWG? I didn't play it long enough to see if they even had dungeons. 

UO did have "Boss MOBs" though, in the form of the toughest MOBs. Deamons, Dragons, etc. The deepest layers of dungeons were where the toughest MOBs were, plus a few hot spots in ruins. Yes, you are right to the extent that more modern games had better Raid setups. 
I think maybe that was due to design advancements. 
Again, I don't know about SWG as far as that. 

2)
How unfair to ignore SWG, and the protection from PvP unless you hit the switch to join Rebels or Empire. I even mentioned it above, that I think he'll have something like that, but more advanced. 

3) 
"2" above pretty much answers that, except that I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the political system. I think that's going to be about alliances, warfare, and certain territorial controls that won't mean anything to PvE players. 

Amaranthar

Brainy said:

Kyleran said:

Amaranthar said:

Terazon said:

I think because no one believes it.
Puff of air talk.  

What does belief have to do with discussions of those points in MMORPGs? 
I think it's because you hardcore Themepark Gamers don't want it. Pure and simple. 

But you know what? It's going to happen anyways. If not by Raph, by someone. Because there's no place else to go for MMORPGs. 

Themepark gamers?  I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up.

Prove me wrong.

UO would be my pick for the first real Sandbox.  Raph was a big part of that.

UO and SWG. Look what happened to SWG when they took out Taming. Lots of angry players who left for that and other changes. That was Raph's, and included raising young pets I believe. 

Amaranthar

Tiller said:

SWG was fun to me because it was Stars Wars first, sandbox MMO second. It was like living in the Star Wars world; in the prequels even which I grew up with. I'm sure this game will be fun, but I'd much rather play a new Star Wars sandbox MMO, yes I'm an old Star Wars fan; and SWG really drove that home for me, but I don't expect anything like it ever again.

I don't know about Star Wars itself, but the company name is, after all, "Playable WORLDS." 
I'd expect a Sci-Fi similar to Star Wars at some point, and very likely the next game up. 
Hopefully. 

Amaranthar

cameltosis said:

I need some details to sink my teeth into. You know im a big fan of Raphs, but without some meat to digest i don't have much to say. Especially as i have no clue who the guy is who got excited! His joy means nothing to me!

Yes, I know you follow Raph for his expertise and experience. I'm a bit surprised that you have taken this tact here. You sound just as negative as the others, and I don't understand any of it. 
Ya know why? Because you guys have repeatedly (with some few exceptions) supported anything else new, evidenced as "sight unseen", with 'New World', and others over the years. 

Anyways, wondering about the excited guy is fair. I did too, although I remembered his name from UO (in a positive way). I found this from his X (formerly Twitter) account.

Tim Cotten

@CottenIO

AI, Metaverse, & Web3. Founder of Scrypted (http://scryptedinc.com), Ex-EA, Ex-Mythic

I recommend clicking that link, then to his blog, and reading the first entry there. Very interesting stuff. 

Point being, this guy is no slouch.