The general discussions section is as entertaining as always. xD
But yeah, if i spend too much time reading these type of posts i think i may become ill, so delisting and moving on. Been thinking about another Baldur's Gate 3 playthrough with some friends.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013 Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005 Fishing in RL since 1992 Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
The general discussions section is as entertaining as always. xD
But yeah, if i spend too much time reading these type of posts i think i may become ill, so delisting and moving on. Been thinking about another Baldur's Gate 3 playthrough with some friends.
It is a shame the game is not as polished as the chatAI's are.
How would fraud laws apply if a game is in "Early Access"?
You are allowed to sell incomplete or non-functional product only if you explicitly tell that it's incomplete or non-functional.
Steam's early access tells clearly that it is incomplete, but since there are no warnings about functionality, the game and all the parts in it must work just like all other games must work.
Also marketing information must be correct. Most importantly, Steam's product description and screenshots must describe the game as it is now. The sellers can optionally also release information on what their plans for the game's future are, but they may not claim that the game includes something before they've actually implemented it.
I would be interested if anyone could link a situation where a game developer or Valve got successfully sued, awarded damages for an early access game not delivering on its full feature set prior to actual release.
I know 7D2D hasn't delivered on several promised features (and it's pretty clear some never will be) despite being in its 10th year of early access.
Also, I would think Steam's refund with the first 2 hours of trying the game would well protect Valve in case they were brought to court.
Quite honestly, I have little sympathy for stupid consumers who should have known better, most deserve at least a wack on the knuckles with a ruler for buying into this for any reason, and then complaining about their purchase.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually in the USA bait and switch does apply to online sales along with brick and mortar, check the FTC laws genius. My uncle has prosecuted 2 cases of online fraud due to bait and switch tactics. So kindly STFU about things you obviously know nothing about. Just say you're a shill for the company and kindly move on. This "game" is downright fraud based on their own advertising. Hell their steam promo video (still up as of earlier today) calls it an open world survival MMO. Their steam video still shows off features they claim are in the game but aren't. And your moronic take that I can't comment on it since I didn't buy this fraudulent piece of software, because I actually have a functioning brain and eyes that easily showed me what garbage this was from the beginning, might be the most imbecilic take on these forums in 2023.
I didn't bring up bait and switch, you did.....so what that your uncle's cousin twice removed who got their law degree from a cracker jack box "prosecuted 2 cases of online fraud due to bait and switch tactics." Were they about a foreign video game developer that stated their game is this genre of video game, and it turns out that it is a different sub genre of video game?! I never said anything about bait and switch not being illegal for online sales....try reading exactly what I said and not what you seem to think I said. You seem awfully pressed about this thing you didn't invest in.
How would fraud laws apply if a game is in "Early Access"?
You are allowed to sell incomplete or non-functional product only if you explicitly tell that it's incomplete or non-functional.
Steam's early access tells clearly that it is incomplete, but since there are no warnings about functionality, the game and all the parts in it must work just like all other games must work.
Also marketing information must be correct. Most importantly, Steam's product description and screenshots must describe the game as it is now. The sellers can optionally also release information on what their plans for the game's future are, but they may not claim that the game includes something before they've actually implemented it.
I would be interested if anyone could link a situation where a game developer or Valve got successfully sued, awarded damages for an early access game not delivering on its full feature set prior to actual release.
I know 7D2D hasn't delivered on several promised features (and it's pretty clear some never will be) despite being in its 10th year of early access.
Also, I would think Steam's refund with the first 2 hours of trying the game would well protect Valve in case they were brought to court.
Quite honestly, I have little sympathy for stupid consumers who should have known better, most deserve at least a wack on the knuckles with a ruler for buying into this for any reason, and then complaining about their purchase.
There won't be any of those cases on Steam since Valve's terms make it clear that you are buying an unfinished product that may not ever get patches or get finished.
Valve has guarded themselves well on that front: They are allowed to sell you unfinished product since they tell you that it's unfinished, and they have no obligation to finish it since they told you that it may never get finished.
If you buy a game that is clearly marked early access, and has just released, you have nobody but yourself to blame. Stop looking for ways to shift your bad choices onto someone else and stop making bad decisions.
The general discussions section is as entertaining as always. xD
But yeah, if i spend too much time reading these type of posts i think i may become ill, so delisting and moving on. Been thinking about another Baldur's Gate 3 playthrough with some friends.
Im captain of Star Ship Enter-prize , and have borg assimilation scan tool installed in my ships computer....blah blah blah..
I didn't bring up bait and switch, you did.....so what that your uncle's
cousin twice removed who got their law degree from a cracker jack box
"prosecuted 2 cases of online fraud due to bait and switch tactics."
Were they about a foreign video game developer that stated their game is
this genre of video game, and it turns out that it is a different sub
genre of video game?! I never said anything about bait and switch not
being illegal for online sales....try reading exactly what I said and
not what you seem to think I said. You seem awfully pressed about this
thing you didn't invest in.
My uncle is a district attorney. What do you think prosecute means. I'll give you a moment to look it up. I thought I was being clear but I apparently have to lower my expectations when it comes to you. I also made no mention he prosecuted a game dev, I simply stated that bait and switch applies to online sales as well and it does and he has prosecuted those cases with one defendant ending up in jail. That being said, most basement dwelling keyboard warriors can't afford a lawyer, and no lawyer would take a case of an individual to sue a game company for a fraud game because that company likely won't even be solvent and/or might not even exist by the time the case makes its way through court. The best hope for ever suing a game company is a class action suit, because the lawyer could actually make money on that possibly. If an individual wanted to take a game company to court they would have to pay hefty lawyers fees and court costs for yes a likely $40-$60 game minus the punitive damages. If a person was rich they could do it out of spite and I hope it happens someday, it won't, but one can hope.
If you buy a game that is clearly marked early access, and has just released, you have nobody but yourself to blame. Stop looking for ways to shift your bad choices onto someone else and stop making bad decisions.
FYI truth in advertising rules still apply to early access. Doesn't matter whether it's labeled early or not legally. EULA or TOS makes no difference because neither can supercede laws. They have to clearly state X features that are advertised are not in the game or state that X features will be coming to the game rather than implying or flat out saying they are in now. But for reasons I mentioned above no one will likely sue them over it which is a shame.
If you buy a game that is clearly marked early access, and has just released, you have nobody but yourself to blame. Stop looking for ways to shift your bad choices onto someone else and stop making bad decisions.
FYI truth in advertising rules still apply to early access. Doesn't matter whether it's labeled early or not legally. EULA or TOS makes no difference because neither can supercede laws. They have to clearly state X features that are advertised are not in the game or state that X features will be coming to the game rather than implying or flat out saying they are in now. But for reasons I mentioned above no one will likely sue them over it which is a shame.
Early Access has been a can of worms that should never have been opened, I was not the only one on here against it from the start. It does not matter about the law because you cannot rely on the law to get your money back, maybe you will, maybe you won't. Once this can opened it was abused as soon as it could be and that will just get worse.
I didn't bring up bait and switch, you did.....so what that your uncle's
cousin twice removed who got their law degree from a cracker jack box
"prosecuted 2 cases of online fraud due to bait and switch tactics."
Were they about a foreign video game developer that stated their game is
this genre of video game, and it turns out that it is a different sub
genre of video game?! I never said anything about bait and switch not
being illegal for online sales....try reading exactly what I said and
not what you seem to think I said. You seem awfully pressed about this
thing you didn't invest in.
My uncle is a district attorney. What do you think prosecute means. I'll give you a moment to look it up. I thought I was being clear but I apparently have to lower my expectations when it comes to you. I also made no mention he prosecuted a game dev, I simply stated that bait and switch applies to online sales as well and it does and he has prosecuted those cases with one defendant ending up in jail. That being said, most basement dwelling keyboard warriors can't afford a lawyer, and no lawyer would take a case of an individual to sue a game company for a fraud game because that company likely won't even be solvent and/or might not even exist by the time the case makes its way through court. The best hope for ever suing a game company is a class action suit, because the lawyer could actually make money on that possibly. If an individual wanted to take a game company to court they would have to pay hefty lawyers fees and court costs for yes a likely $40-$60 game minus the punitive damages. If a person was rich they could do it out of spite and I hope it happens someday, it won't, but one can hope.
I hate to say this to a point...but....you sound like a keyboard warrior yourself good sir. No one gives a flying toot who your uncle is or what he does. Giving an argument like you are is just pointless and shallow. Also side note attacking fellow gamers with broad generalizations isn't a great way to have your points validated. And if you not looking for validation you just come off as a little brat....lol gl though
I didn't bring up bait and switch, you did.....so what that your uncle's
cousin twice removed who got their law degree from a cracker jack box
"prosecuted 2 cases of online fraud due to bait and switch tactics."
Were they about a foreign video game developer that stated their game is
this genre of video game, and it turns out that it is a different sub
genre of video game?! I never said anything about bait and switch not
being illegal for online sales....try reading exactly what I said and
not what you seem to think I said. You seem awfully pressed about this
thing you didn't invest in.
My uncle is a district attorney. What do you think prosecute means. I'll give you a moment to look it up. I thought I was being clear but I apparently have to lower my expectations when it comes to you. I also made no mention he prosecuted a game dev, I simply stated that bait and switch applies to online sales as well and it does and he has prosecuted those cases with one defendant ending up in jail. That being said, most basement dwelling keyboard warriors can't afford a lawyer, and no lawyer would take a case of an individual to sue a game company for a fraud game because that company likely won't even be solvent and/or might not even exist by the time the case makes its way through court. The best hope for ever suing a game company is a class action suit, because the lawyer could actually make money on that possibly. If an individual wanted to take a game company to court they would have to pay hefty lawyers fees and court costs for yes a likely $40-$60 game minus the punitive damages. If a person was rich they could do it out of spite and I hope it happens someday, it won't, but one can hope.
-Before i call you a fibber, i just want ask: what state does your uncle work in?
If you buy a game that is clearly marked early access, and has just released, you have nobody but yourself to blame. Stop looking for ways to shift your bad choices onto someone else and stop making bad decisions.
FYI truth in advertising rules still apply to early access. Doesn't matter whether it's labeled early or not legally. EULA or TOS makes no difference because neither can supercede laws. They have to clearly state X features that are advertised are not in the game or state that X features will be coming to the game rather than implying or flat out saying they are in now. But for reasons I mentioned above no one will likely sue them over it which is a shame.
Early Access has been a can of worms that should never have been opened, I was not the only one on here against it from the start. It does not matter about the law because you cannot rely on the law to get your money back, maybe you will, maybe you won't. Once this can opened it was abused as soon as it could be and that will just get worse.
I'm trying to think of any other product that you pay for before it is done, with no guarantee it will ever be done.
Movies? -- pay full price, but the ending isn't done yet , you can watch what we have now
Food? -- your meal isn't ready but you pay anyway, your meal may never be ready
Cars? -- you can buy the car now, but it doesn't have any brakes and can only turn left
Computers? -- buy it now, it mostly works, sometimes
Clothes? -- well, aside from missing one leg, these pants are fine, buy them now!
If you buy a game that is clearly marked early access, and has just released, you have nobody but yourself to blame. Stop looking for ways to shift your bad choices onto someone else and stop making bad decisions.
FYI truth in advertising rules still apply to early access. Doesn't matter whether it's labeled early or not legally. EULA or TOS makes no difference because neither can supercede laws. They have to clearly state X features that are advertised are not in the game or state that X features will be coming to the game rather than implying or flat out saying they are in now. But for reasons I mentioned above no one will likely sue them over it which is a shame.
Early Access has been a can of worms that should never have been opened, I was not the only one on here against it from the start. It does not matter about the law because you cannot rely on the law to get your money back, maybe you will, maybe you won't. Once this can opened it was abused as soon as it could be and that will just get worse.
I'm trying to think of any other product that you pay for before it is done, with no guarantee it will ever be done.
Movies? -- pay full price, but the ending isn't done yet , you can watch what we have now
Food? -- your meal isn't ready but you pay anyway, your meal may never be ready
Cars? -- you can buy the car now, but it doesn't have any brakes and can only turn left
Computers? -- buy it now, it mostly works, sometimes
Clothes? -- well, aside from missing one leg, these pants are fine, buy them now!
Same goes for games in perpetual "alpha".
I thought of one.
Magazine subscriptions.
On more than one occasion the one I subbed to was cancelled, though usually they sent some different magazine until the end of the paid sub.
Can happen to any prepaid service such as a annual gym membership, lawyer retainer etc.
Physical goods are tougher, closest I can come are condo buyers promised they are buying into a future, vibrant community.
Then the promises don't pan out, leaving the buyers in ghost towns or even outright unfinished buildings or development with none of the promised shopping or amenities.
Come to think of it a lot of people who contract having a home or pool built get shafted when scamming developer walks away after taking some portion of the draw funds, happens where I live regularly.
Won't even get into the nightmare of having liens files on you by subs who haven't been paid after the GC has skipped or gone broke after being paid in full by the buyer.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you buy a game that is clearly marked early access, and has just released, you have nobody but yourself to blame. Stop looking for ways to shift your bad choices onto someone else and stop making bad decisions.
FYI truth in advertising rules still apply to early access. Doesn't matter whether it's labeled early or not legally. EULA or TOS makes no difference because neither can supercede laws. They have to clearly state X features that are advertised are not in the game or state that X features will be coming to the game rather than implying or flat out saying they are in now. But for reasons I mentioned above no one will likely sue them over it which is a shame.
Early Access has been a can of worms that should never have been opened, I was not the only one on here against it from the start. It does not matter about the law because you cannot rely on the law to get your money back, maybe you will, maybe you won't. Once this can opened it was abused as soon as it could be and that will just get worse.
I'm trying to think of any other product that you pay for before it is done, with no guarantee it will ever be done.
Movies? -- pay full price, but the ending isn't done yet , you can watch what we have now
Food? -- your meal isn't ready but you pay anyway, your meal may never be ready
Cars? -- you can buy the car now, but it doesn't have any brakes and can only turn left
Computers? -- buy it now, it mostly works, sometimes
Clothes? -- well, aside from missing one leg, these pants are fine, buy them now!
Same goes for games in perpetual "alpha".
I thought of one.
Magazine subscriptions.
On more than one occasion the one I subbed to was cancelled, though usually they sent some different magazine until the end of the paid sub.
Can happen to any prepaid service such as a annual gym membership, lawyer retainer etc.
Physical goods are tougher, closest I can come are condo buyers promised they are buying into a future, vibrant community.
Then the promises don't pan out, leaving the buyers in ghost towns or even outright unfinished buildings or development with none of the promised shopping or amenities.
Come to think of it a lot of people who contract having a home or pool built get shafted when scamming developer walks away after taking some portion of the draw funds, happens where I live regularly.
Won't even get into the nightmare of having liens files on you by subs who haven't been paid after the GC has skipped or gone broke after being paid in full by the buyer.
Just imagine you hire a contractor to build something, and he says "pay me full price now, but there is no guarantee I'll finish the work". Would you hire them? Or a lawyer who says "pay me the retainer now, but I might not call you back if you call me". Normally, you sign a contract which spells out what is expected.
In the gaming case, they specifically tell you the game isn't done yet, and they may never finish it. But they want you to pay full price now anyway. And no contract.
If you buy a game that is clearly marked early access, and has just released, you have nobody but yourself to blame. Stop looking for ways to shift your bad choices onto someone else and stop making bad decisions.
FYI truth in advertising rules still apply to early access. Doesn't matter whether it's labeled early or not legally. EULA or TOS makes no difference because neither can supercede laws. They have to clearly state X features that are advertised are not in the game or state that X features will be coming to the game rather than implying or flat out saying they are in now. But for reasons I mentioned above no one will likely sue them over it which is a shame.
Early Access has been a can of worms that should never have been opened, I was not the only one on here against it from the start. It does not matter about the law because you cannot rely on the law to get your money back, maybe you will, maybe you won't. Once this can opened it was abused as soon as it could be and that will just get worse.
I'm trying to think of any other product that you pay for before it is done, with no guarantee it will ever be done.
Movies? -- pay full price, but the ending isn't done yet , you can watch what we have now
Food? -- your meal isn't ready but you pay anyway, your meal may never be ready
Cars? -- you can buy the car now, but it doesn't have any brakes and can only turn left
Computers? -- buy it now, it mostly works, sometimes
Clothes? -- well, aside from missing one leg, these pants are fine, buy them now!
Same goes for games in perpetual "alpha".
I thought of one.
Magazine subscriptions.
On more than one occasion the one I subbed to was cancelled, though usually they sent some different magazine until the end of the paid sub.
Can happen to any prepaid service such as a annual gym membership, lawyer retainer etc.
Physical goods are tougher, closest I can come are condo buyers promised they are buying into a future, vibrant community.
Then the promises don't pan out, leaving the buyers in ghost towns or even outright unfinished buildings or development with none of the promised shopping or amenities.
Come to think of it a lot of people who contract having a home or pool built get shafted when scamming developer walks away after taking some portion of the draw funds, happens where I live regularly.
Won't even get into the nightmare of having liens files on you by subs who haven't been paid after the GC has skipped or gone broke after being paid in full by the buyer.
Just imagine you hire a contractor to build something, and he says "pay me full price now, but there is no guarantee I'll finish the work". Would you hire them? Or a lawyer who says "pay me the retainer now, but I might not call you back if you call me". Normally, you sign a contract which spells out what is expected.
In the gaming case, they specifically tell you the game isn't done yet, and they may never finish it. But they want you to pay full price now anyway. And no contract.
That's a good point, in my examples the sellers at least promise to deliver what was promised.
Yet in gaming people line up, often well knowing the stated terms, then complain bitterly or even act surprised at the outcome.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well it lasted 4 days studio is closed as of a few hours ago. It's all over yt and they even made a X post. They also deleted every yt on the games channel....
Well it lasted 4 days studio is closed as of a few hours ago. It's all over yt and they even made a X post. They also deleted every yt on the games channel....
They took the money and ran, omfg. They made scam, and are basically saying all out money is paid to investors, sorry, shutting the doors.
Comments
But yeah, if i spend too much time reading these type of posts i think i may become ill, so delisting and moving on. Been thinking about another Baldur's Gate 3 playthrough with some friends.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013
Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005
Fishing in RL since 1992
Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
I know 7D2D hasn't delivered on several promised features (and it's pretty clear some never will be) despite being in its 10th year of early access.
Also, I would think Steam's refund with the first 2 hours of trying the game would well protect Valve in case they were brought to court.
Quite honestly, I have little sympathy for stupid consumers who should have known better, most deserve at least a wack on the knuckles with a ruler for buying into this for any reason, and then complaining about their purchase.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
yeesh
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I didn't bring up bait and switch, you did.....so what that your uncle's cousin twice removed who got their law degree from a cracker jack box "prosecuted 2 cases of online fraud due to bait and switch tactics." Were they about a foreign video game developer that stated their game is this genre of video game, and it turns out that it is a different sub genre of video game?! I never said anything about bait and switch not being illegal for online sales....try reading exactly what I said and not what you seem to think I said. You seem awfully pressed about this thing you didn't invest in.
Thank you
- a staffmember of TDB
Valve has guarded themselves well on that front: They are allowed to sell you unfinished product since they tell you that it's unfinished, and they have no obligation to finish it since they told you that it may never get finished.
FYI truth in advertising rules still apply to early access. Doesn't matter whether it's labeled early or not legally. EULA or TOS makes no difference because neither can supercede laws. They have to clearly state X features that are advertised are not in the game or state that X features will be coming to the game rather than implying or flat out saying they are in now. But for reasons I mentioned above no one will likely sue them over it which is a shame.
And that means you know that much more than the ordinary person?
Gotcha!
Maybe to convince people, you ought to have him post here and share his legal opinions!
Jergis, who actually is a lawyer
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Magazine subscriptions.
On more than one occasion the one I subbed to was cancelled, though usually they sent some different magazine until the end of the paid sub.
Can happen to any prepaid service such as a annual gym membership, lawyer retainer etc.
Physical goods are tougher, closest I can come are condo buyers promised they are buying into a future, vibrant community.
Then the promises don't pan out, leaving the buyers in ghost towns or even outright unfinished buildings or development with none of the promised shopping or amenities.
Come to think of it a lot of people who contract having a home or pool built get shafted when scamming developer walks away after taking some portion of the draw funds, happens where I live regularly.
Won't even get into the nightmare of having liens files on you by subs who haven't been paid after the GC has skipped or gone broke after being paid in full by the buyer.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Yet in gaming people line up, often well knowing the stated terms, then complain bitterly or even act surprised at the outcome.
Weird.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They took the money and ran, omfg. They made scam, and are basically saying all out money is paid to investors, sorry, shutting the doors.