PvP

Wargfoot

So I think I may have hinted a few times that I'm in Fractured Online.
I was drawn to the title because of the old school UO feel - and surprise the PvP issues came along for the ride.

• A large part of my guild wants to quit because of the PvP.  This is shocking to me because we live in the PvE world where it simply cannot happen; however, even occasional exposure to it really sets people off.  This is perplexing for a couple of reasons: 1) The game is very up front about PvP existing so why buy the title?  2) The reds have been spanked so hard by sheriffs they are nearly non-existent.

• The last 15 hrs. I spend in PvP land - I've not seen a red.  I don't know if it is because of my UO days that I know how to avoid them (it doesn't take a brilliant intellect to select time and location carefully).  For the most part, they're a non-issue.  I cannot get some people to come to PvP land to get knowledge points even if it is literally impossible for them to lose anything, but even at that, the threat is already minimal.

• Many reds are as we suspected.  For all the posturing, bravado, and trash talk the sheriff system has shown them to be the whinging little bitches they are.  We've got a sheriff in our guild that they've tried to get banned because they're tired of getting owned.  Some are decent human beings who like to PvP but wow, most are just pathetic.

• Speaking of UO, who can tell who the UO vets are because they don't care.  When it comes to "risk" this is so minimal it doesn't register with them.  

• The population has dropped over (between patches) significantly so the "Dead game" whinging has begun.   For those of us who embrace the ebb and flow of games the population decline is the time to gather rare resources. 

• We had a former red in PvE land last night harass us for 45 minutes by training mobs into us.  I guess actual PvP got too real and he's resorted to griefing.  A guildmate videod his actions and the "l33t PvP poser" got a 3 day ban. 

I'm shocked at all the complaing that happens on both sides of the aisle.
Read the box, understand the rules and have fun.

Sheesh.

Dibdabs

I agree with everything you say.  The vast majority of "PvP Players" and indeed whiny, posturing little bitches who don't like it when a sheriff-type, karma-type or bounty-system puts the boot to their ass.  They're pathetic.  In Eve Online they didn't like it when their big bad mega-ship got swarmed by a dozen small frigates and blown to shit.  I took part in a handful of "Kessie Swarms" and it was funny as hell

Indeed, why people buy a game that features PvP when they don't want to PvP is a conundrum.  Eve online was well-known for having PvP sectors with lots of rich resources and PvE players would cry that they got blown up 3 or 4 times and "it wasn't fair because all they wanted was some good resources".  Nobody MADE them go there, FFS, and they could have stayed in safer sectors for resources anyway or simply traded for them.

There's no real PvP in games any more as there's no real risk or reward for doing it.  Games are just "Fainting Simulators" where you die and simply pop back good as new moments later, very often with all your stuff intact.  How yawn-inducing.  As for me, well, I'm too old and decrepit to have the reflexes for PvP, plus I could be ruining the day of some kid the same age as my grandkids, and I couldn't bear that.  Age, eh!  ?

Sovrath

I'm still not clear on the sheriff bit. So how does one become a sheriff? And if the reds hate sheriffs, why don't they just attack them?

In any case, "yeah" there are extremes with the pvp and pve players and players buy these games thinking they should cater to their interests.

"forced pvp," "forced grouping" are cries that we hear but it's ridiculous. Might as well have "forced tackling" in football, or "forced getting wet" in a water park.

Scot

I draw the line at losing stuff (use other penalties) though I agree with everything else, but let me widen out the topic Wargfoot started.

Why do players feel so entitled to their PvE in a game that has PvP? Because the devs have catered to them for so long. I am a RvR fan myself but even the idea there are regions which are PvP while most are PvE is not good enough for them, which is now leading us to...

Cosy MMOs, which I think are a real danger to MMORPGs, they are going to make players think of MMOs as somewhere you can turn of your brain and go to sleep. The PvE Care Bears have taken over MMOs by and large, now with Cozy MMOs we will be in their cartoon world.

olepi

Sovrath said:

I'm still not clear on the sheriff bit. So how does one become a sheriff? And if the reds hate sheriffs, why don't they just attack them?

In any case, "yeah" there are extremes with the pvp and pve players and players buy these games thinking they should cater to their interests.

"forced pvp," "forced grouping" are cries that we hear but it's ridiculous. Might as well have "forced tackling" in football, or "forced getting wet" in a water park.

I disagree somewhat, there is  forced PvP which is distinct from other game play.

I've had a lot of fun PvPing in games like DAOC, ESO, Ryzom, and PoTBS. In each case, you can completely avoid PvP if you want to. And you can play as much PvP as you want to also.

I used to farm mobs in DAOC in PvP land, for the added thrill. I loved running cargo into the red zone in PoTBS and counting on my fast boat to escape. Sieges in ESO, and outpost battles in Ryzom. All great fun.

But in Xyson, you didn't have the choice.  If you were in the world, you could get attacked by other players. So they would camp the respawn spots, and kill you when you respawn, and then when you respawn again, they kill you again. That is "forced" PvP and is no fun at all. 

Imagine a water park where the second you step into the park, people start pelting you with water balloons, and they won't stop. Anywhere you go, any slide, you get pelted with water balloons. Gets old after a while. A water park is much more fun when you can pick which slide, which waterfall you want to experience. And dry off for a minute if you want to.

For Fractured, I don't understand why someone would complain about PvP if there are safe PvE zones to play in.

Sovrath

olepi said:

I disagree somewhat, there is  forced PvP which is distinct from other game play.

But if you're advertising a game as a "pvp everywhere" game then it's not forced. You look at the "box" see that it's not for you and you move on.

No one is forcing a person to buy/play these games.

edit: Also, regarding your thoughts on the "water park" analogy, that was Lineage 2. Probably one of the greatest games I've played. Some of my best memories were fighting or running from reds in Dark Elf Village.

Ahhhh good times.

Brainy

Hard to imagine how intellegent people cant even see the obvious.

Look the games purposely put the mechanics and zones into place to attract the PVE players then people wonder why PVE players come? LOL seriously?

Brainy

PVP in these MMO's is the conundrum.  They want to put out nice fields and pastures for the sheep and deer to come, then shot them.  Then they want the sheep and deer to be happy about it. LOL

How about they make a complete SERVER for PVE players.  This way the PVE players dont have to dream about all the hookups all the PVP players are getting.

They pretend to give PVE players a PVE zone, meanwhile all the good stuff is right next door.  They are purposely trying to pull them over into the areas they don't want to play in, by tempting them with the stuff they crave.  Why do these games offer more PVE rewards in the PVP zones?  Obviously its on purpose to attract PVE players.

PVE players don't want to be second class players.  They want the same benefits the PVP zones are getting.  Why do they have to get jacked just because they don't want to play with the twitchy tryhards?

The real question is this.  If PVP zones were popular, then why do they have to offer higher incentives in those zones?  Imagine if they offered the better incentives in the PVE zones LOL, the PVP zones would be completely dead PERIOD.  Heck PVP zones would be dead even if they offered EQUAL incentives in PVP/PVE zones.

Quizzical

olepi said:

Sovrath said:

I'm still not clear on the sheriff bit. So how does one become a sheriff? And if the reds hate sheriffs, why don't they just attack them?

In any case, "yeah" there are extremes with the pvp and pve players and players buy these games thinking they should cater to their interests.

"forced pvp," "forced grouping" are cries that we hear but it's ridiculous. Might as well have "forced tackling" in football, or "forced getting wet" in a water park.

I disagree somewhat, there is  forced PvP which is distinct from other game play.

I've had a lot of fun PvPing in games like DAOC, ESO, Ryzom, and PoTBS. In each case, you can completely avoid PvP if you want to. And you can play as much PvP as you want to also.

I used to farm mobs in DAOC in PvP land, for the added thrill. I loved running cargo into the red zone in PoTBS and counting on my fast boat to escape. Sieges in ESO, and outpost battles in Ryzom. All great fun.

But in Xyson, you didn't have the choice.  If you were in the world, you could get attacked by other players. So they would camp the respawn spots, and kill you when you respawn, and then when you respawn again, they kill you again. That is "forced" PvP and is no fun at all. 

Imagine a water park where the second you step into the park, people start pelting you with water balloons, and they won't stop. Anywhere you go, any slide, you get pelted with water balloons. Gets old after a while. A water park is much more fun when you can pick which slide, which waterfall you want to experience. And dry off for a minute if you want to.

For Fractured, I don't understand why someone would complain about PvP if there are safe PvE zones to play in.

There is an enormous difference between "I don't like forced PVP, so I'm going to ignore that game" and "I'm going to play a game with forced PVP and then whine incessantly about it".  The former is completely reasonable, and the latter is not.

Quizzical

Brainy said:

PVP in these MMO's is the conundrum.  They want to put out nice fields and pastures for the sheep and deer to come, then shot them.  Then they want the sheep and deer to be happy about it. LOL

How about they make a complete SERVER for PVE players.  This way the PVE players dont have to dream about all the hookups all the PVP players are getting.

They pretend to give PVE players a PVE zone, meanwhile all the good stuff is right next door.  They are purposely trying to pull them over into the areas they don't want to play in, by tempting them with the stuff they crave.  Why do these games offer more PVE rewards in the PVP zones?  Obviously its on purpose to attract PVE players.

PVE players don't want to be second class players.  They want the same benefits the PVP zones are getting.  Why do they have to get jacked just because they don't want to play with the twitchy tryhards?

The real question is this.  If PVP zones were popular, then why do they have to offer higher incentives in those zones?  Imagine if they offered the better incentives in the PVE zones LOL, the PVP zones would be completely dead PERIOD.  Heck PVP zones would be dead even if they offered EQUAL incentives in PVP/PVE zones.

I mostly agree, but it depends a lot on the game.  Some games are very clear that low level zones are safe, but high level zones are open PVP.  The problem comes when developers try to tell anti-PVP players that they can stay in safe PVE zones forever, but then make it so that they have to go to an open PVP zone to get what they want.

Nebless

Sovrath said:

I'm still not clear on the sheriff bit. So how does one become a sheriff? And if the reds hate sheriffs, why don't they just attack them?

No clue about sheriff's, but if the pvp players are like the one's in any other game, the last thing they want to do is go into anything resembling a fair fight that they might lose.  

One shoting noobs 20 levels below them is more their speed.

Quizzical

Nebless said:

Sovrath said:

I'm still not clear on the sheriff bit. So how does one become a sheriff? And if the reds hate sheriffs, why don't they just attack them?

No clue about sheriff's, but if the pvp players are like the one's in any other game, the last thing they want to do is go into anything resembling a fair fight that they might lose.  

One shoting noobs 20 levels below them is more their speed.

Battles that you can trivially win is what a lot of games try to give people in PVE.

cheyane

You have to make it clear as crystal that the good stuff is in the areas you might get PKed in. This is a must. Don't mislead the players into thinking they can play safely and never involve themselves in PvP.

I have played PvP games and gotten killed. I have however been warned from the very beginning so I take the risk. However if you hold out to your player base they will be safe and get to play and do the content in safety and then PvP players come and kill you by exploiting or using loopholes in the combat or areas  then if the PvE players complain I do not blame them at all.

Developers who do not make it clear from the very beginning deserve the loss of players. They shouldn't try to entice PvE players with cheap tricks. It always backfires.

You might think it is clear because you have played other games but a new player may look at the rules and think it is as clear as mud. PvE players often convince themselves they can live with limitations and then they whine and complain. Best to write everything clearly and explain the rules through examples and this makes it less likely that people get confused about the rules.

There was one game that said you can opt out of PvP. What it actually meant was that they can opt out of attacking another player but that did not mean that players could not attack them. Clear as mud no.

Wargfoot

In Fractured you can only mine silver in PvP land but you can only mine gold in PvE land.  The same is true for crystals needed to make important oils.  Three exist in PvP land and three exist in PvE land.

So this isn't a case of "all the good stuff is in PvP areas".  The nice thing about this approach is it encourages trade - so yeah, you may be a big bad red in PvP land but in PvE land you'd be a fool to go there.  (You cannot attack anyone, but they can come after you).

As for Sheriffs, I believe any and all good aligned don't drop equipped gear on death whereas the reds lose everything.  So it is trivial for a sheriff to be well equipped but a big risk for reds to run around in nice gear.  The sheriff also gets money for jailing a red so even if the red is naked they get paid.

In fact, I often see reds offering to buy their gear back.  A red did kill me today but I had the opportunity to outbid him for his gear and destroy it.  (I didn't do that, but watching notorious reds beg for gear is a breath of fresh air).

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

In Fractured you can only mine silver in PvP land but you can only mine gold in PvE land.  The same is true for crystals needed to make important oils.  Three exist in PvP land and three exist in PvE land.

So this isn't a case of "all the good stuff is in PvP areas".  The nice thing about this approach is it encourages trade - so yeah, you may be a big bad red in PvP land but in PvE land you'd be a fool to go there.  (You cannot attack anyone, but they can come after you).

As for Sheriffs, I believe any and all good aligned don't drop equipped gear on death whereas the reds lose everything.  So it is trivial for a sheriff to be well equipped but a big risk for reds to run around in nice gear.  The sheriff also gets money for jailing a red so even if the red is naked they get paid.

In fact, I often see reds offering to buy their gear back.  A red did kill me today but I had the opportunity to outbid him for his gear and destroy it.  (I didn't do that, but watching notorious reds beg for gear is a breath of fresh air).

But how do people become sheriff's and why can't the reds retaliate?

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

In Fractured you can only mine silver in PvP land but you can only mine gold in PvE land.  The same is true for crystals needed to make important oils.  Three exist in PvP land and three exist in PvE land.

So this isn't a case of "all the good stuff is in PvP areas".  The nice thing about this approach is it encourages trade - so yeah, you may be a big bad red in PvP land but in PvE land you'd be a fool to go there.  (You cannot attack anyone, but they can come after you).

As for Sheriffs, I believe any and all good aligned don't drop equipped gear on death whereas the reds lose everything.  So it is trivial for a sheriff to be well equipped but a big risk for reds to run around in nice gear.  The sheriff also gets money for jailing a red so even if the red is naked they get paid.

In fact, I often see reds offering to buy their gear back.  A red did kill me today but I had the opportunity to outbid him for his gear and destroy it.  (I didn't do that, but watching notorious reds beg for gear is a breath of fresh air).

But how do people become sheriff's and why can't the reds retaliate?

You become a sheriff for a player run town - I'm not sure if the governor is involved or not but we've people who are residents of PvE towns who are sheriffs.

The reds can retaliate but because of gear differences they live on the edge.

Tiller

All other PvP mechanics aside, for me SWG with the TEF (temporary Enemy Flag) system was my favorite PvP/PvE  system. It wasn't perfect and led to some complaints from everyone at some point in regards to temp flagging up to overwhelm the baddies or not being able to shoot Storm Troopers without getting flagged.

My experiences as bounty hunter and later a Jedi when it comes to PvP will stick with me as the pinnacle of my MMORPG experience. I wish more games had systems like it. It was pretty hardcore but you just had to be smart about how these systems worked and you could bypass trouble. After being a BH I learned how not to get visibility as Padawan and end up on the BH board.

It also lead to some hilarious stories on the forums. Like the time a player named Space Biscuit was going to quit the game because she accidentally grouped and healed an overt player in the Cantina and got pwned along with everyone else grouped with the person. You didn't choose the Rebel life to have it easy in that game that's for sure.

Sovrath

cheyane said:

You have to make it clear as crystal that the good stuff is in the areas you might get PKed in. This is a must. Don't mislead the players into thinking they can play safely and never involve themselves in PvP.

The only game's developers who intentionally obscured the pve/pvp situation were the people talking about Aion.

Players kept asking if they can avoid pvp and the people representing the game kept saying "you can play as you want" meaning that you could choose to pvp or choose to pve. But they never answered the question correctly.

Other than that, for the most part, I think most developers just make the game they want, or close to what they want, and just assume players will "get it."

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

.....and just assume players will "get it."

I'm amazed how many don't get it.

Brainy

People can complain about whatever they want.  There is no difference of PVE'ers complaining about mechanics in a PVP game, then there is PVPers complaining about wanting more PVP in games like WoW or ESO. 

Its up to Devs to move the needle towards making more money and maintaining a healthy population.

What I do see is:
PVE'ers complain about PVP
PVPers complain about PVE
Forum Warriors complain about people complaining about PVE or PVP
Others complaining about people who complain about complainers etc....  (now its just getting silly)

So if you are complaining and call someone a whiner about complaining about X, maybe its time to look in the mirror.

Nanfoodle

This was my concern from the start. Catering to PvE, PvP rule set and PvP FFA players all in one game. My experience is when you try and cater to too many player types. You just end up upsetting them all. I loved the Idea of what the core game is but IMO they are going to need to pick what market they want to sell the game too. 

Wargfoot

Nanfoodle said:

This was my concern from the start. Catering to PvE, PvP rule set and PvP FFA players all in one game. My experience is when you try and cater to too many player types. You just end up upsetting them all. I loved the Idea of what the core game is but IMO they are going to need to pick what market they want to sell the game too. 

This is the big challenge.

Wargfoot

Brainy said:

So if you are complaining and call someone a whiner about complaining about X, maybe its time to look in the mirror.

I usually have to pay $95 an hour to get this kind of help.
Thanks Brainy!

Brainy

Wargfoot said:

Brainy said:

So if you are complaining and call someone a whiner about complaining about X, maybe its time to look in the mirror.

I usually have to pay $95 an hour to get this kind of help.
Thanks Brainy!

No worries just call it my Xmas present to you.  However the first Thursday 2024 at our next appt I plan discuss upping those rates.  Inflation and got to pay the bills.

Scot

Quizzical said:

There is an enormous difference between "I don't like forced PVP, so I'm going to ignore that game" and "I'm going to play a game with forced PVP and then whine incessantly about it".  The former is completely reasonable, and the latter is not.

But, but every game must be made for me; not just PvE but it has to be 3rd person view and I don't like anime characters...Give me a few minutes and I will think of something else every game must have!

Theocritus

"The population has dropped over (between patches) significantly so the "Dead game" whinging has begun.   For those of us who embrace the ebb and flow of games the population decline is the time to gather rare resources."

You gotta figure being PVP will turn away a good chunk of players....