Am I Delusional?

Geeky

I've been a devoted follower of Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen for quite some time. My admiration for Brad McQuaid's previous work led me to eagerly join the hype surrounding Pantheon from the start. I enthusiastically pledged a significant amount to support the game. The initial glimpses and streams of the game, even if they were just temporary placeholders, captivated me. Those placeholders became the foundation for what I envisioned the game's look and atmosphere to be. However, my enthusiasm shifted dramatically with the recent "art style" change, and I've been vocal about my disappointment with this alteration multiple times.

After gaining access to the Pre-Alpha stage for Alpha pledge members and playing for around 15 hours, my initial excitement turned into concern. The game appeared amateurish, lacked high fidelity, and while it performed adequately, nothing stood out as exceptional. Quests were mundane—mostly involving FedEx-style deliveries or "kill X" tasks. Crafting, although present, received widespread criticism for needing significant improvement. Overall, there's little to praise about the current state of the game. Some mechanics seem out of place, and there are questionable design decisions.

However, when I express these concerns on the official Pantheon forums or Reddit, I'm often dismissed as a hater. Admittedly, my lack of enthusiasm for the game's current state might come across as harsh, especially to dedicated fans. But I'm genuine in my observations. I express myself honestly without being disrespectful, yet I also refuse to overly praise something that doesn't meet my, what I consider, low expectations. It appears to me that many others are overly supportive or defensive, while I maintain a critical perspective. You can find my posts under the username "Kittik" on the official forums; feel free to check and see if I've gone too far.

Hence, I'm reaching out here, hoping for a less biased audience, where I might receive a genuinely honest response. Reading the replies and posts on the official forums, I'm genuinely concerned that I might be losing perspective. I struggle to understand how people can genuinely be excited about what the game currently offers.

maskedweasel

Echo chambers like official forums and reddit where you can't express concerns without being downvoted or silenced are too common now. It's obvious anyone watching pantheon should have massive concerns after this past year. Just remember that people watched the day before die in real time, and even after it announced the game was closing down people still clung to it and defended it. Pantheon is a hill that a lot of backers will die on. Even if it's complete crap. The only way people learn is when they get burned, and even then some of them might thank the devs for it. 

Who knows, maybe pantheon will turn around and next year will be better. I doubt it, but we'll see. 

Sovrath

I think there are too many misconceptions about what Pantheon is or should be.

First off, it's a game that had multiple restarts, problems with money, changes of personnel, and the head "visionary" die.

It's very possible that the people who work on this do this "part time" so that doesn't help at all.

Secondly "YES" this is a game with fedex quests and "kill x." why did you think it would be anything but?

It's a spiritual successor to Everquest after all.

It's not a "triple A" game. It's an indy game that has run into issues. It's also in pre-alpha to alpha so why should it be in any other state other than the amount of time taken to make it "should" have put it farther along if not for the reasons I've given above.

And while I strongly doubt that it will come out I'll give it a go if it does. Don't see any reason not to.

Dibdabs

Never, ever buy a pig in a poke.  The time to buy is 3 months after a game has released, in order to gauge gamer reactions before making your own mind up whether to buy or not. Don't throw money at people who fail to deliver. 

caalem

maskedweasel said:

Echo chambers like official forums and reddit where you can't express concerns without being downvoted or silenced are too common now. 

Even worse, walled echo chambers like Discord.
Developers are absolutely terrified of negative feedback now.

Slapshot1188

caalem said:

maskedweasel said:

Echo chambers like official forums and reddit where you can't express concerns without being downvoted or silenced are too common now. 

Even worse, walled echo chambers like Discord.
Developers are absolutely terrified of negative feedback now.

So are the true believers.

Wargfoot

Other people's opinions can help refine your own opinion from time to time; however, ultimately the question is: "Am I enjoying this game?"

Fanbois invest their ego into a game so how they feel about themselves is tied to the success of the game.  They're a bad gauge.  Other people are trolls so they get off on attacking others in a room where they know they'll have the support of the fanbois.  Then there are the bored who just hang out in a space for the community.

^--- All of that is noise.  Again, the only real question is: "Am I enjoying this game?".  If not, go find something you enjoy - because being honest about that question sidesteps the whole 'delusional' debate.

Scot

We have been mounting an intervention to rescue players from these cults for some time now.

Look, the game may come out and it may be great, but until then do something else with your time and money. Simple as that really.

Apraxis

Simple and honest answer? Yes.

madazz

maskedweasel said:

Echo chambers like official forums and reddit where you can't express concerns without being downvoted or silenced are too common now. 

Agreed with your post in general, but this line stood out the most. Particularly in regards to reddit. The MMORPG sub there has been decimated by mods. I participate in a lot of subs, but that is one I avoid. One mod there in particular likes to antagonize people, make nonsensical arguments and respond with the most boorish, longwinded drivel in a really annoying format (quote, response, quote, response, repeat 10x). That mod is Angelicel. That witch bans so many people just because they disagree with her. Im not banned there, but if I participated that moron would have me gone in a day because I'd refuse to call Destiny an MMO.

MaeEye

Geeky said:

However, when I express these concerns on the official Pantheon forums or Reddit, I'm often dismissed as a hater.

Unfortunately this is the sad reality of sites like Reddit, people tend to follow the common norm because the internet points are motivators. 

For me, the hope of Pantheon kind of trickled once McQuaid passed away. That’s not to say he is the only talented person on that team, however it was his vision that people were interested in. 

Will I check the game out if it does eventually release? Most likely. However, kickstarter/paid-for-by-fans MMO’s don’t have the best track records. Even if they were created by once legendary developers. 

Wargfoot

Geeky said:

However, when I express these concerns on the official Pantheon forums or Reddit, I'm often dismissed as a hater.

So why do you hate Pantheon so much?

Elidien_ga

When I try and leave negative feedback, regardless if its a game, restaurant or some service I used, I try and explain what happened and how to fix it. Its one thing to leave feedback on a restaurant's review that says "Your restaurant sucks" and something else to say the same but with concrete examples that details specifics and how you would address them to fix them.

The issue in these feedback vacuums is that often devs, mods, glorified fanbois with forum power take both to be the same. They delete any negative feedback that criticizes the game even that which is meant to be helpful.

A very famous world leader from years ago would deliver speeches to an audience but before doing so, his people would swoop in and survey the audience. The speaker would then tell the audience what they liked to hear. That is not helpful, productive, or leadership, its a popularity contest.

Often devs want to hear that which only reinforces their held beliefs. This is why many games today launch in such horrid states. Nobody can tell me that Diablo 4 would have launched the way it did, or the changes to OW2 would have occurred the way the did, if Blizz had listened to anyone but their biggest fanbios. And those of us like the OP and myself get silenced and railroaded out of supporting a game by the fans when we try and give supportive, constructive feedback. 

Slapshot1188

Here is my totally objective and not at all subjective take (honest!):

Usually, though not always, a person criticizes a game or game company.   When this happens, the proper response IMHO is to respond back with why that criticism is invalid. Or at least why you see it differently.  This is a good discussion.   But far too often what happens is that a "fan" or even a developer will respond by attacking the critical poster.  Trying to brand them a "hater" or a "harbinger".  This takes the discussion away from the game.  This is the equivalent of someone who just posts "GAME SUX and people who play it are dumb"


To me, when folks go down that path is just an admission of losing the argument.  You cannot counter the message, so lets try and kill the messenger (or Harbinger).

Kyleran

madazz said:

maskedweasel said:

Echo chambers like official forums and reddit where you can't express concerns without being downvoted or silenced are too common now. 

Agreed with your post in general, but this line stood out the most. Particularly in regards to reddit. The MMORPG sub there has been decimated by mods. I participate in a lot of subs, but that is one I avoid. One mod there in particular likes to antagonize people, make nonsensical arguments and respond with the most boorish, longwinded drivel in a really my annoying format (quote, response, quote, response, repeat 10x). That mod is Angelicel. That witch bans so many people just because they disagree with her. Im not banned there, but if I participated that moron would have me gone in a day because I'd refuse to call Destiny an MMO.

Rule 7 violation there Mister, one does not discuss what is not a MMO on r/MMORPG, at least not without stepping very lightly through the minefield.

Scot

Slapshot1188 said:

Here is my totally objective and not at all subjective take (honest!):

Usually, though not always, a person criticizes a game or game company.   When this happens, the proper response IMHO is to respond back with why that criticism is invalid. Or at least why you see it differently.  This is a good discussion.   But far too often what happens is that a "fan" or even a developer will respond by attacking the critical poster.  Trying to brand them a "hater" or a "harbinger".  This takes the discussion away from the game.  This is the equivalent of someone who just posts "GAME SUX and people who play it are dumb"


To me, when folks go down that path is just an admission of losing the argument.  You cannot counter the message, so lets try and kill the messenger (or Harbinger).

This same process is what every organisation does when criticised, making them defensive by default and why so few people in an organisation will bring up issues. That is one of the reasons I think it is not a good idea for fans to have such a close relationship with the developer. This has made it more likely that developers end up thinking fans are the problem and fans become defensive by default.

Lithuanian

Companies usually want to hear only good news. Critics is tolerated as long as it concerns technical issues. This huge stone does not allow me to pass to next region; there is invisible wall in the tavern that kills everyone; loot was Stinky WereHobbit quest is always 5 gold when quest states it should be 0,5 copper. Such issues can be wellcome by companies and listened to.

Everything else would be treated as hate or evil propaganda (maybe even paid for).

That's how, in my opinion, game companies work.

Kyleran

Lithuanian said:

Companies usually want to hear only good news. Critics is tolerated as long as it concerns technical issues. This huge stone does not allow me to pass to next region; there is invisible wall in the tavern that kills everyone; loot was Stinky WereHobbit quest is always 5 gold when quest states it should be 0,5 copper. Such issues can be wellcome by companies and listened to.

Everything else would be treated as hate or evil propaganda (maybe even paid for).

That's how, in my opinion, game companies work.

Agreed, questions or criticisms about design decisions, lack of delivery progress, monetization models, funding,  localization or anything politically related are rarely welcome or answered.

I get it though, once answered or ignored further clamoring by players for such answers is akin to having a bunch of children (and old men) in the back seat saying

Germzypie

If the game does turn out to be really bad, you will slowly see those white knights turn into critics and disappear.  Just find something else to enjoy and avoid those sites.  Most devs avoid them also so it is all moot.

Scot

Germzypie said:

If the game does turn out to be really bad, you will slowly see those white knights turn into critics and disappear.  Just find something else to enjoy and avoid those sites.  Most devs avoid them also so it is all moot.

What? You mean the devs are not taking notice of my every word!